[Tx_Jim]

I have some questions about pepper spray. One, are there any laws here in Texas regarding carrying pepper spray? Two, where can one buy pepper spray here in the Austin, TX area. And three, does anyone have any suggestions on brand and etc.

sorry for my ignorance about pepper spray and thanks in advance.

[AirForceShooter]

Why not a nice J-Frame?

AFS

[CleverNickname]

It's illegal to possess a "chemical dispensing device" as per §46.05 of the Texas Penal Code. §46.01 defines a "chemical dispensing device" as:

14) "Chemical dispensing device" means a device, other than a
small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection,
that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of dispensing a
substance capable of causing an adverse psychological or physiological
effect on a human being.
Emphasis mine. I think pretty much any pepper spray you can buy in a store will be legal, and this is more oriented towards, for example, making a 40mm tear gas grenade illegal.

[yesit'sloaded]

Pepper spray? I would look at a nice pistol. For a "house gun" it doesn't have to be a tiny mousegun. People tell me a .45 does wonders for making someone decide that breaking out is a higher priority than breaking in.

[Tx_Jim]

I wish she would carry one. Two things, first she is not comfortable with handguns...i tried to get her to shoot but she won't. Second, she works early in the morning (at work by 5:30 am) and needs something she can carry legally in Tx (at 19 yrs old a handgun is not legal). Although she does works for the county sheriffs department (not a LEO...admin staff)...I wonder if different rules apply.

[yesit'sloaded]

A 26" shotgun like the Mossberg persuader if she will have a long gun. Other than that a big dog at home , tazer, pepper spray, and situational awareness goes a long way.

[Fburgtx]

Cabela's carries pepper spray (at least the Fort Worth one does, so I'm assuming the one in Buda, 5 miles south of Austin, does, too). Go to the gun counter. They should have the pepper spray there (behind the counter). You can get her one for her purse and a big "Bear Spray" one to keep on her night stand, if you wish.

[Andrewsky]

You haven't gotten any real advice yet.:scrutiny:

I carry a 4 oz. Fox Labs. A lot of police carry these, they're cheap, they're powerful, and they're easy to use.

I ordered off of this website.

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/pepper.htm (http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/sprays.htm)

It's legal to carry in Texas. Not legal in NYC, MA, and Minot, North Dakota (I'm not kidding).

[Tx_Jim]

Thanks for the responses...

I really need to go through some thought process before deciding on a house gun for her.

I know one must be 21 to purchase a handgun...but what is the minimum age to be in posession of a handgun? I have a .38 i could give her but what legal libilities are there for me? My concern is that she is going to have roommates. She is at one of these appartments designed for college students...meaning she rents by the room and the complex does the roomate matching. If she has an unscrupulous roommate who goes through her things and finds the pistol and does something stupid with it...what legal hassels do i need to be aware of. I assume a quick hand safe might protect me from legal issues but do not know.

this is even if she lets me take her to the range and if she is even willing to take the pistol.

The complex is gated (and the gates are closed 24/7 with a manned guard shack at the front). They provide a roving CP (courtesy patrol)...not armed...and not police trainined...but roving non the less.

Am I just being a parinoid father?

What do ya'll think?

[boredelmo]

Hold up realll quick now. Is this an on campus dorm? Even so, there are private apartments around here that are still considered to be on campus.

She going to UT/ACC/St. Edwards?

I lived at the Dobie Center last year for UT, even though it wasn't technically affiliated with the university it was still on the edge of campus and firearms were strictly prohibited. You don't want her to get into trouble now.

Pepper spray sounds like a great idea, many students here carry it, but i question their mindset. They mostly keep them on keychains buried deep into their purses. Every girl i've come across that does that gets a talking to from me.

There are many many threats to be aware of around the UT campus. Namely the homeless population, I've had 3 run ins with them that involved serious crimes (stabbing, attempted rape, twice). None of them were ever caught. They all had to do with female friends of mine. (the girls call me when they feel like they're in danger).

I myself have had to run to avoid confrontation with drunk homeless looking for fights. Not mention all the shoplifters/intoxicated i have dealt with working at the convenience store.

If she is going to UT, theres a school range right next to he gym. This year it has turned pretty private because of the UT legal department, one has to be part of the competitive team to practice there. But im sure i could get her in for at least one shooting session. I taught maybe 20 first time shooters last semester. I'd be more than willing to see if shes up for some .22 or maybe even the target air pistols.

18 is legal for possession. You're free to gift her a gun.

If you have any questions, i have 5 semesters under my belt and youre welcome to pm me.

PS. One key thing, the threat can be from inside the gated community. Places like Riverside (Longhorn landing) or town lake are gated, but drunk drugged up college kids do party whilst in the community. I have a story or two about those communities as well.

[jefnvk]

I livedin a gated community for a few months. Felt more uncomfortable there than any country house, dorm or plain city house I've been in. Too many people I didn't know always around.

While a handgun might be a better defensive choice, I would make sure she is comfortable using it.

If it is a college house, make sure she knows her roommate before bring guns into the house. Also, make sure there is nothing against it, if it is tied to the school, there are likely rules against firearms being stored there.

[gunmn74]

I like the look of these.

http://www.life-act.com/guardianangel.php

I saw a thread some where that showed one dissasmbled and showed how it
worked and the pattern on a target. I cant seem to find it now.

[boredelmo]

LOL, it even comes in UT orange :P

[pax]

Oleoresin Capasin (OC) is concentrated heat from a hot-pepper plant. It is an oleoresin, which means it sticks to the skin and cannot be simply rubbed away, and it is an irritant, which means that the reaction does not rely upon allergies or sensitivities. Only about 1 person in about 10,000 doesn't really react to the stuff, so it can be an effective mid range defense tool.

If OC gets into or near your eyes, your eyes will slam shut and begin watering profusely; getting them open again is NOT going to happen just by willing it so, but you can reach up and pry one eye open with your hand if you keep your wits about you. Snot production kicks into high gear. The hands usually drop whatever they're holding, and reach for the face in a reflexive motion. The skin will burn like a bad sunburn or worse. If the OC gets down into the airways, breathing burns like fire and the person will have the sensation that they are choking or suffocating (they won't be, unless they are among the truly miniscule portion of the population who experiences an anaphylactic allergic reaction to the stuff).

All of this tends to stop the attack. That's the good news.

The bad news is that these reactions can take up to 5 seconds before they begin, and a lot of very bad and very permanent things can happen during that 5 seconds. Furthermore, if the attacker knows the victim is armed with pepper spray, there are certain specific things he can do to protect himself from the spray, or to mentally prep himself to fight through the reaction. Pepper spray does not make a good "stop or I'll use this" type of deterrent for that reason. (And any ex-con has very likely been sprayed before, knows what it'll do to him, and knows he can fight through it if he must; warning this type of person that you are about to use OC spray just preps him for a fight.)

You can get OC in three basic spray patterns: a fog, a stream, and a foam.

The foam was intended for use inside correctional facilities and other places where contaminating the air was a concern. I'm aware of at least two jails where they're no longer using the foam pattern because inmates have learned to simply swipe the foam off their skin and then smear it into the faces of the guards. The foam is least likely to get into the attacker's lungs, so scratch all the "I'm suffocating" stuff above; and unless you score a direct hit on the attacker's face you won't get the eyeball reactions either, leaving only the bad-sunburn sensation on whatever patch of skin you do happen to hit, and maybe not even that if you hit his clothes rather than his skin. So aim it carefully.

The stream was designed to combine the advantages of the fog with the advantages of the foam. It is more likely to get into the attacker's eyes, but still won't get into his lungs unless you are very fortunate and he was inhaling with his mouth open at the moment you hit his face. Like the foam, however, it is less likely to contaminate the user herself than the fog is. And like the foam, it has to be directly aimed at the attacker's face; a near-miss won't do anything useful.

The fog is most likely to get the full reaction: eyes, nose, lungs, skin. It requires the least precision in use, and a near miss with it is almost as good as a hit. It is quickest to disperse in the open air, however, and most likely to contaminate the user as well as the attacker.

The intensity of OC is measured in Scoville Heat Units (SHU), and also by the percentage of product within the can. In order to get the true, at-the-nozzle effectiveness rating, you multiply the SHU by the percentage of product. This multiplication gives you a common denominator allowing you to directly compare a can of OC with an SHU of 10,000 at 2% with one with an SHU of 8,000 at 5%.

Most instructors will tell you to use OC in 2-second bursts, and to immediately move to one side after you spray the attacker. The attacker will very likely lunge directly for the spot he last saw you in, with his arms wide open to try to grab you. You cannot just spray and stand there to see what happens. Flee to one side or the other rather than straight back for your best chance of getting away.

Fox Labs produces probably the best-regarded spray on the market. There are others. Stay away from any product that doesn't give you both the SHU and the %; stay away from any product that looks gimicky; and stay away from anyone charging $50 for less than a half-ounce of OC.

Some good old threads about using pepper spray and other non-firearms options:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=254996
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=217761
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=179103

Also take a look through the subforum about non-firearms weapons.

pax

[Tx_Jim]

Hold up realll quick now. Is this an on campus dorm? Even so, there are private apartments around here that are still considered to be on campus.

She going to UT/ACC/St. Edwards?

I lived at the Dobie Center last year for UT, even though it wasn't technically affiliated with the university it was still on the edge of campus and firearms were strictly prohibited. You don't want her to get into trouble now.

Pepper spray sounds like a great idea, many students here carry it, but i question their mindset. They mostly keep them on keychains buried deep into their purses. Every girl i've come across that does that gets a talking to from me.

There are many many threats to be aware of around the UT campus. Namely the homeless population, I've had 3 run ins with them that involved serious crimes (stabbing, attempted rape, twice). None of them were ever caught. They all had to do with female friends of mine. (the girls call me when they feel like they're in danger).

I myself have had to run to avoid confrontation with drunk homeless looking for fights. Not mention all the shoplifters/intoxicated i have dealt with working at the convenience store.

If she is going to UT, theres a school range right next to he gym. This year it has turned pretty private because of the UT legal department, one has to be part of the competitive team to practice there. But im sure i could get her in for at least one shooting session. I taught maybe 20 first time shooters last semester. I'd be more than willing to see if shes up for some .22 or maybe even the target air pistols.

18 is legal for possession. You're free to gift her a gun.

If you have any questions, i have 5 semesters under my belt and youre welcome to pm me.

PS. One key thing, the threat can be from inside the gated community. Places like Riverside (Longhorn landing) or town lake are gated, but drunk drugged up college kids do party whilst in the community. I have a story or two about those communities as well.


She is a student at one of those schools you mentioned. The appartment complex is not affiliated with any school and even rents to non-students although they cater to students. It's not even in close proximity to any one school but is on the bus routes for one of the schools you mentioned. One, question we did ask was about children...although by law they could not say if any children lived in the complex the girl did say that they do not prohibit children and or families...but on the same breath she said that because they rent "by the room" it would be expensive for a family to rent by the room.

That would indicate to me that they fall under any ordinary leasing laws.

BTW...I talked to her today...she is willing to go to the range just to see if she would be comfortable with the idea.

[Tx_Jim]

excellent info and insite PAX....thanks.

[boredelmo]

I would never trust someone i dont know very well around a gun. If you do end up gifting her the gun, a quick access safe would be a good idea (as well as many hours of talking to and training).

[thebaldguy]

I had no idea that pepper spray was illegal in some places. I have given gifts of pepper spray, whistles, and pocket knives to our nieces, along with a long talk about situational awareness and locking doors even when you are home. I live in a college neighborhood, and it never ceases to amaze me that many youngsters walk alone at night, with their walkman/mp3 player headphones cranked in their ears. They are completely unaware of what's going on, and some do become victims of crime. Some I have warned about walking around oblivious to what's going on; one told me she has a right to walk around whenever, wherever, doing whatever she wants without fear. They feel the police are there to protect all of us 24-7. I warn college kids that YOU are responsible for YOUR safety, and the police cannot protect all of us all the time. Try suing your local PD when you become a victim.

Maybe a martial arts class would be helpful; along with the advice about NOT getting drunk in strange places with strange people. Also it may be a good time to have the "use a condom" talk as well.

[Tx_Jim]

Also it may be a good time to have the "use a condom" talk as well.

I have that conversation with her every chance i have since she was 14.

As for getting drunk...i'm sure she will partake in drinking but i hope I have drilled responsibility into her head enough that she will make the right choices. I even talk to her about not putting her drink down or let others pour drinks for her just because someone may slip something into it. Like I said before...she works for the county sheriff’s office and because she has minimal contact with inmates they are required to take a three week safety course dealing with how to handle inmates and situational awareness. Hopefully, between that course and my lecturing she learned something about being responsible for her own safety. I also taught her to fight with whatever is available (kicking, screaming, scratching, biting if necessary) whatever it takes to not be a victim ...make as much noise as possible...do not make it easy for a BG.

[boredelmo]

Swift kick to the gonads.

[pax]

Swift kick to the gonads.

Good theory, not so easy in practice. Men are pretty well conditioned from childhood on to protect the gonads -- though of course if you can get a quick knee jab there, all the better.

Realistically, humans are tool-users. We are tool users because we are, by and large, ill equipped for doing things without tools. Our nails are not generally strong enough to shred prey (unlike a tiger's). Our teeth, formidable as they are, are not really designed for slashing (unlike a bear's or a dog's). Although it's really good to be able to fight without tools if you need to, tools are better.

It's all a matter of finding the right tools and then learning how to most effectively use those tools when you need 'em most.

pax

[Spreadfire Arms]

TxJim wrote:

I have some questions about pepper spray. One, are there any laws here in Texas regarding carrying pepper spray? Two, where can one buy pepper spray here in the Austin, TX area. And three, does anyone have any suggestions on brand and etc.

sorry for my ignorance about pepper spray and thanks in advance.

there is a local police supply store in town she can buy stuff from so long as she has her police department credentials (which they ask you display when they buzz you in), even as a civilian employee. it is GT Distributors in N. Austin:

www.gtdist.com

i am in located in Austin and we do offer an OC course (as well as a CHL course) if she is interested in learning more about self defense options. we also offer a Women & Handguns class (only for women students), as well as other stuff.

i am a certified OC instructor by Def-Tec/Armor Holdings. granted there is no specific law mandating she be trained how to use it, it is always nice to know how to use it and the laws concerning self-defense.

to answer your specific question, she can carry a personal sized OC aerosol projector and be legal in Texas. that basically means a MK-III or smaller size. she wouldn't be legal obviously with a pepper fogger!

anyway if you want send me a PM and ill see what i can do to help.

[Mr Kablammo]

My own minor footnotes to the above: McBride's Gunstore at 28th and Lamar (walking distance to UT campus) sells the Kimber Life Act or Guardian Angel for about $40. Also, doubling up on the recommendation to her to visit the UT range and consider training for competitive matches. Even if she does not join, she can visit to see IF she would join.

[Jeff F]

Quote:
Although she does works for the county sheriffs department (not a LEO...admin staff)...I wonder if different rules apply


I would think all she would have to do is talk to one of the higher ups at the sheriffs department and they will get her squared away. Might even get her the same stuff they use in the department and some instruction.

[Spreadfire Arms]

they may be able to give her a can of OC, but not sure what her agency issues to its troops. if they issue a MK-IV sized canister, that is probably in violation of the Texas Penal Code as it is not a personal-sized canister (as there are at least two canister sizes i can think of, MK-III and MK-VI, that are smaller).

if they issue a smaller size can and they are willing to give it to her then great. somehow i dont think that will happen unless she is a corrections officer.

that would really be no different than an agency issuing a box of ammunition to a non-sworn employee......seeing it is for "off the job" protection im not sure if an agency would just hand a can of OC to a non-sworn employee, especially without training. i think there may be a liability issue? there is certainly no liability in not providing a can of OC to an employee for self-defense purposes off the clock. but i think there could definitely be a liability issue for the LE agency if they did give it the employee without proper training.

[pax]

Spreadfire Arms ~

All true enough, as far as it goes.

But I suspect that asking a buddy at work would probably be a good place to start anyway. Even if her friends at work can't help her out "officially", under department auspices, there are probably one or more of them willing to show her the ropes and discuss other safety issues with her on their own time.

pax

[Boomerang]

You haven't gotten any real advice yet.

I carry a 4 oz. Fox Labs. A lot of police carry these, they're cheap, they're powerful, and they're easy to use.

I ordered off of this website.

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/pepper.htm

It's legal to carry in Texas. Not legal in NYC, MA, and Minot, North Dakota (I'm not kidding).

Part of that is incorrect.
It is legal to carry in MA.

[Gator]

Did you get her one of these? ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Galt38/prettydaughters.jpg

[Tx_Jim]

Did you get her one of these?

Not yet...my wife and I are going to McBrides Guns this weekend to look at the product made by Kimber for carry and then go look at Cabelas (a bigger spray) for the nightstand.


BTW...I was a little dissapointed to find out that eventhough there is not any affiliation with a university that they do not allow firearms of anykind on the premises.

I wonder if this is legal as I did not see it in the lease agreement. Very similar to washington DC in that it seems to restrictive considering they fall under all the same rules as any other housing in the fact that it must adhere to the house authority rules...but I assume they can get away with it under private ownership. That being said, when we were ther visiting, I was armed and at the time i did not see a 30.06 sign anywhere.

[Kingcreek]

Oh my, does this thread bring back memories...
When my daughter announced that she was getting an appartment off-campus, she caused me some lost sleep. I contacted the new landlord (a sympathetic father of 2 girls and a decent guy) and obtained his permission to make a few modifications to the rental property. A Saturday spent adding some lighting, hardenening doors and windows, adding locks...
Situational awareness had been the drill for quite awhile, but she got the refresher course lectures while I worked and I left her with fresh cans of good quality OC.
Do everything you can and you'll still worry that you haven't done enough.

[Tx_Jim]

Oh my, does this thread bring back memories...
When my daughter announced that she was getting an appartment off-campus, she caused me some lost sleep. I contacted the new landlord (a sympathetic father of 2 girls and a decent guy) and obtained his permission to make a few modifications to the rental property. A Saturday spent adding some lighting, hardenening doors and windows, adding locks...
Situational awareness had been the drill for quite awhile, but she got the refresher course lectures while I worked and I left her with fresh cans of good quality OC.
Do everything you can and you'll still worry that you haven't done enough.

I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling this way. I thought I might be labled as a paranoid parent.

[Prince Yamato]

Any gun shop (such as Red's Indoor Range) will usually carry pepper spray. Get her a small size that she can carry in her pocket. The kind that doesn't ruin the line of dress pants or snug fitting jeans. As far as guns. You can OWN a handgun in Texas at age 18, but cannot purchase one at an FFL or get a CCW until you are 21. If your daughter is not comfortable around guns, then either 1) get her comfortable or 2) don't get her a gun.

Stun guns/Tasers are also LEGAL in Texas. That might be an alternative. The University of Texas is mum on the subject of their legality on campus, but I would expect legal troubles if "caught" with one or if one was misused on campus.

If you want to play it real safe: Small pepper spray for school and for home a large can and a real nice set of kitchen knives.

If she has an unscrupulous roommate who goes through her things and finds the pistol and does something stupid with it...what legal hassels do i need to be aware of. I assume a quick hand safe might protect me from legal issues but do not know.

If the roommate is known to be a prohibited person and you offer them easy access to one of your weapons, then you may be charged

[onewithgun]

As far as pepper spray I would go with Fox Labs. Seems to me that their units of "heat" are the hottest.

Another thing is about her not wanting to shoot. People fear what they don't understand. If she gave it an honest chance and started educating herself on guns she would see that they're nothing to fear at all.

For her I would get a snub-nosed .357 magnum, probably a 686 S&W stainless. Load it with standard .38 or .38 +p, +p+ would probably be too much recoil.

Also in regards to the pepper spray. If it's going to be staying in the apartment then pretty much anything is legal if it's no CS. I would get her the Grizzly bear formula for in the apartment. The HUGE can :). Then for carrying I would get her the Fox Labs stuff.

Hope it helps.

[Spreadfire Arms]

one thing to remember about the use or carrying of pepper spray is that it can be taken from you and used against you.

OC is not permanent, and if trained, you can fight through it. however, im not aware of many college students who carry OC have any sort of experience being exposed to it and realizing that they are able to fight even though they have been exposed to it.

speaking from personal experience i can say that it is not easy but it is not impossible. just something you may want to keep in mind when and if you get her some OC spray, that it can be taken from her and used against her.

also she should know things such as effective distance, minimum recommended standoff distance, retention techniques, and the fact that it, like any other weapon, is not 100% effective.

she should also definitely get a canister with a flip-top like shown below:

http://foxlabs.net/IMAGES/FlipTop%20Front.jpg

there is one sure rule of thumb about OC spray, for those who have used it before definitely know this:

pepper spray is guaranteed to affect one person 100% of the time, and that is the user.

[BlisteringSilence]

Something to think about:

Mace brands now sells a pepper spray that comes in gel form. And it works. The guys at our jail are raving about it, and I got to use it on the guys that came through the last reserve deputy course.

Way better than foam, no blowback from wind like a fogger or stream, and that stuff sticks on you. You can't wipe it clear like you can with a stream spray.

Just my two cents.

[Spreadfire Arms]

Blistering Silence wrote:

You can't wipe it clear like you can with a stream spray.


the advantage of foam OC is that it is very target specific and tends not to contaminate the entire room if you're using it indoors, like a jail or a courtroom.

the disadvantages of foam OC are:

1. it is a heavier propellant thus doesn't spray as far (usually less than 10 feet) as a regular ballistic stream (15-20 feet)

2. the assailant can wipe off the foam off of his face and throw it back in your face

so yes, it can be wiped clear and thrown back at the user. in my opinion, as an OC instructor, foam has its limitations and specific uses.

[Lurp]

Tx_Jim Check your PM's

[hso]

One of the significant advantages to her working for the Sheriff's Department is that she can talk to the trainer who provides OC training for the Deputies and he may be willing to show her how to use OC with the nonhazardous training sprays. He almost certainly will be able to advise her on what they use as a Department and what he would prefer (if different from the issue spray).

You need to discuss indoors in her apartment vs. outdoors usage. Indoors she's not limited to the easily portable sprays and can pick something much larger. Outside she has to worry about wind direction and distance reducing the effectiveness of the spray. Streams tend to do much better than fog or cone sprays for distance and resisting wind, but can be a little harder to hit the target. Aim for the chest and push it up into the face regardless of what is chosen.

Take a look at the various reviews and discussions on sprays we've had in Non-Firearms. There's a lot of favor for Fox and growing positive reviews of the Kimber product.