[liberty boy]

Does anyone know what is the best and simplest non lethal disabling cut by a knife that could be deployed on an attacker?

[yesit'sloaded]

No such thing.

[pdowg881]

A cut that's bad enough to disable someone is potentially lethal.

[liberty boy]

Well the trouble is I'm writing from the UK where firearms are completely illegal and a few ordinary people over here of all ages admit to carrying some sort of knife for possible self-defence- especially at night when walking through risky areas.

What otherwise then would be a seventy year old man's best bet to disable an attacker?

[JShirley]

A heavy walking stick, well wielded.

[Creature]

A large dog.

[Joe Demko]

A walking stick used with a will. Back in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, gentlemen in your country routinely carried walking sticks with which to ward off blackguards, hooligans, and thugs. Run a websearch on Pierre Vigny and also on Bartitsu to see how those with formal instruction might have handled things. The stick trumps the the fist and the knife every time, IMO. The key is to use it like you mean it and with a modicum of skill, not just wildly flailing.
More recently, your Anthony Fairbairn and our Rex Applegate were both believers in the efficacy of the stick as a method of persuading random dirtbags to seek easier targets.
The stick is just as effective today as it was then against an assailant. I have a couple different headknockers that I carry when I go out for a stroll. As it happens, I am middleaged and arthritic...so I can also legitimately claim that the stick is for support...as I imagine your 70 year old friend could. Your police, I fear, might look at a vigorous young man with a stick and immediately conclude he's Little Alex.

[liberty boy]

Yes funny you should say that, the old man I was thinking of carries both a stick and a knife.

Going back to knives, my research tells me de-animating the opponent is about so-called "Biomechanical Cutting", in which the crucial targets are the hands and the feet. All well and good but neither of these would be easy targets in the heat of responding to an attack.

[auschip]

Going back to knives, my research tells me de-animating the opponent is about so-called "Biomechanical Cutting", in which the crucial targets are the hands and the feet. All well and good but neither of these would be easy targets in the heat of responding to an attack.

Another board I read suggested that while cuts to the hand can stop a fight (or at least impair an attacker), the police could potentially see these injuries as defensive in nature. No citation was provided, but I could see that being a factor depending on who calls the police first.

[Rexster]

Biomechanical cutting, as a subject, is opening a can of worms! Yes, one cut can disable, if, for example, tendons or muscles that are responsible for holding a weapon are severed. The issue is knowing just how to make that cut, and whether the bad guy will just sit there and let himself be cut, and not transfer his weapon to another hand, or pull another weapon, or cause serious injury without a weapon. Legally, using a deadly weapon is using lethal force; if you plan to argue otherwise, you'd better have a truly great lawyer, and deep pockets. If lethal force is legally justifiable, and a defender chooses to use a less-lethal form of deadly force, that is an individual decision. I will provide an example, from my training, of a fight being ended with a less-lethal cut. During karambit training, we learned to use a series of three moves, at a minimum, in quick succession. The most frequent target of the first cut was structural components of the opponent's weapon hand/arm, followed quickly by two more thrusts or cuts to more vital areas while maintaining control of the weapon hand/arm and taking the opponent off-balance. The opponent could end the struggle by immediately complying at any point, making further cuts and thrusts unnecessary. (Yes, karambits are used for thrusting; a properly designed karambit works BETTER for thrusts than slashes.) Yet, in a true deadly force situation, with life in imminent danger, if my BEST target at any point in time was a deep, lethal, cut or thrust, I should probably attack it, or possibly regret it for the rest of my life. I am not taliking about blood lust here, but ending the bad guy's lethality as quickly as possible.

[Rexster]

One error I see quite often on internet discussions of this type is that a cut across the back of the hand/wrist/forearm will cause a person to drop a weapon held in that hand. That is only going to happen if the person DECIDES to give up. First of all, the tendons on the back of the wrist/hand/arm are recessed, and difficult to reach. Secondly, those tendons are NOT involved in gripping a weapon, but in opening the hand; cutting those tendons makes it more difficult to drop a weapon, as the person cannot open his hand, and must shake his weapon loose to drop it.

[JohnKSa]

Forehead.

[Rexster]

Before LEOSA, I tended to carry an Irish Blackthorn walking stick or oak cane when traveling out of state, as young as my mid 30's. I had a surgery scar on my knee, in case I needed to justify it, but was never asked. Now, in my mid-40's a stick is less "out of place." I recently purchased a better, thicker Blackthorn stick, even though LEOSA now allows me to carry a handgun outside my home state, because a stick is just a good idea, and it offers relief when my feet (high arches) or bad knee start hurting.

[MASTEROFMALICE]

No offence to the other replies but the OP did say he was 70 years old. Now some older people are spry and quick but the vast majority of 20 year old thugs are a lot quicker.

Someone mentioned a dog. Personally I love that idea. I carry a 1911 everywhere I go, but when I have my German Shepard on a leash I stay fairly confident I won't have to use it. Generally speaking, criminals seem to have a real fear of dogs.

If you're 70, your best bet may be to bring along some teeth on a leash, assuming you can train the dog not to drag you around.

[RyanM]

Personally, I have two opinions on the use of impact and cutting/stabbing weapons on the limbs:

One, there's a ridiculous double standard. Hitting someone on the arm with a large, heavy stick is not lethal force, despite the fact that accidentally hitting them in the torso or head could be lethal. Yet shooting them in the arm is lethal force. On whether cutting someone's arm would be lethal force, I dunno. It'd probably depend on your jurisdiction.

Two, preferentially wounding someone in the arm in a self defense situation is just plain stupid. Unless you're a cop, you have no business using less-than-lethal force, other than in very limited situations (in which case, you should stick with truly less than lethal force, like pepper spray, or pushing but not striking). If someone is not a threat to your life or or the life of a third party whom you're willing to defend, you grit your teeth, swallow your pride, and walk away. If forced to defend yourself, you should apply as much force as possible, to the most vital target that you are confident you can hit. If all you can hit is an arm, you hit it. But if you can get them in the head, throat, or heart, do so.

[Creature]

The other problem with a "walking" stick is that in UK, they can easily be construed as a weapon by the police...even when used by a 70 year old man. The dog will always remain a companion.

[Never No More]

Two thoughts one is hamstring. They are not going anywhere after that cut.

In studying the Samurai arts. We were tought when against multiple targets a quick cut to the temple will disable or daze one, they you have time to take the second out. Also always do the honourable thing, and finish the first one off with a neck or heaven to earth cut.

[hso]

All well and good but neither of these would be easy targets in the heat of responding to an attack.

Absolutely correct. Also, a lot of training is needed to "defang the snake". Are folks up to that? Less training is required for the use of a cane.

A knife is a great tool that can make a good self defense tool. To press it into the self defense role you've got several things ahead of you.

First off, you've got to have an effective knife on you. I've known men and women who have used small knives to great effect in defending themselves. I've known people who have had better luck with larger knives. What can you comfortably carry that becomes part of you like putting on your pants? That's what you want.

Second is you've got to get it deployed. Can you get the knife out and open when you only have a second of warning? Can you maintain enough awareness to allow you to open a pen knife and be ready? Think about what you can physically handle quickly.

Third, you've got to have the will to use it. Are you willing to cut and stab another person. Not just brandish a knife, but actually sink it into another person or slash them deeply enough to sever a limb. That's what we're talking about.

Fourth, you've got to know how. What training have you had and what are you able and willing to get? Using a knife in self defense is not a simple thing if you are planning on going beyond the prison yard pump.

And, finally, you've got to practice enough to make it work.

If you're not committed and able to get some training in an FMA then simple "X" pattern slashing targeting the sides of the neck, arms/hands, insides of thighs/knees is advised. Do this several times a week on a target (tree/post wrapped in rope).

Cane use requires a little training to be effective, but that little bit of training can be very very effective. Seek out a good modern HapKiDo school that teaches cane self defense.

Suggestions to get a canine companion are excellent if, and only if, you and the dog are willing to get the training needed to control a dog that will be an effective defensive tool. "Teeth on a leash" is catchy, but a ****zu out for walkies won't be as effective, or as off-putting, against a teen gang as a GSD on a leash. You've got to be able to control that animal or you're just a train wreck looking for a place to happen.

[JShirley]

Also always do the honourable thing, and finish the first one off with a neck or heaven to earth cut.

What? It sounds like you're advocating using ancient (and unsuitable) battlefield/dueling advice for self-defense scenarios in a country even less forgiving of such action than the US. Such suggestions are not welcome here. Please reconsider before posting anything similar in the future.

[Odd Job]

I've never seen a man strategically disabled with a knife in such a way that he was guaranteed not to be killed, unless he was already subdued by his assailant.

One such case happened in the late 90s in South Africa. We had a visiting plastics surgeon from Germany come to our trauma unit for research purposes. He was a nice guy but he didn't know all the bad areas and he ended up in Hillbrow one afternoon with his camera.
He got jumped by three men who punched and kicked him and got him on the ground. They went through his wallet and found his medic's card.
"Ooooh, you're a doctor," said one goblin.
"Yes," said the doctor, "I am specializing in plastic surgery."
"Oh? We'll see how well you operate now," said the thug and he proceeded to cut the tendons in both the man's forearms.
This was AFTER they already had his wallet and could see he posed no threat to them. There is a special kind of evil in South Africa, and there are many stab victims in Johannesburg. They typically outnumber gunshot victims by a fair amount.
My record in one evening is 22, of which only 2 individuals were stabbed/slashed by the same person. It is a pity I didn't take detailed statistics for wounds from edged weapons while I was in JHB. I regarded them as nothing more exciting than a road traffic accident. We did get the occasional disembowelment, but the messiest injuries by far were related to glass: either by accident (person encounters house glass) or intentional (bottles as weapons).

[liberty boy]

Actually employing a knife and cutting someone would be very hard to do psychologically for most of us unless you felt you knew what you were doing -which is why i asked if there was some simple clinical action which you could do with your knife to efficiently disable your attacker.

If you're a woman or an elderly person and the attacker's motive is robbery or rape-you can probably buy time by appearing to act as a compliant victim, which might well afford you the opportunity to surprise your attacker with whatever you've got in your pocket- pepper spray or whatever. Pepper spray is also illegal in the uK but I think you can worry less about the legal consequences of carrying and using potential weapons the older you are because society is more likley to buy the argument that these are defensive weapons - recognising your legitimate sense of vulnerability.

[cnorman18]

Full disclosure: my only experiences with real-life self-defense have been a home invasion and an imminent street mugging, both of which ended abruptly when I drew a gun. With that caveat, I have done some research in these areas and will try to share what little I have learned. I am not an expert and am not pretending to be one here; I am only repeating what I have learned from (numerous) books and (numerous) DVDs, especially the parts that seem best and most effective to me, and generally have learned from more than one source.

I would think, first, that even in the UK judges have some trace of common sense. Few 70-year-old men pick fights with young thugs, and I would advise your friend to do what he has to do--that is, without mercy or reluctance--in a life-threatening situation and worry about the legal consequences later. We have a saying here in Texas: "It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six."

Walking sticks are indeed a fine self-defense option, but they do require a modicum of strength, especially in the hands. The Irish blackthorn stick is the classic, but any stout hardwood will do, especially ash, oak, or American hickory, as long as it has a prominent knob or ball at the top. One of the best I ever had was a slender elm stick; another was an apple sapling with root knob intact. In any case, the stick must be well cured. Do not try to cut your own. I once cut a staff from an unusually straight branch of a downed apple tree, and it was excellent--after drying with the bark on for five years. A blackthorn would probably be easy to obtain in the UK, anyway, and they are the best.

Do not choose a stick that is very thick or heavy. In a blackthorn especially, a lighter stick will still be amazingly stiff and tough, and much quicker and more effective than a heavy one.

This is because, counterintuitively, one never swings the walking stick overhand as a club in combat; when one swings a stick from the bottom with the heavy knob at the far end, as might be expected from its shape, one will be quickly and easily disarmed.

The basic fighting grip is to hold the stick horizontally, with the dominant hand just below the knob and the weak hand 8"-12" from the tip. The stick is used like a rifle with a bayonet: the knob is used as an impact weapon, punching it as in the Marine "rifle-butt stroke", pushing the knob forward into one's opponent's face and jaw. The tip is thrust like a spear or bayonet, into the body, particularly into the solar plexus, lower torso and groin area, and the throat and face. Both strikes concentrate tremendous two-handed force into a small area, with devastating impact.

One never releases the knob end; the knob makes the stick easier to retain--which is why it is never swing as a club, making it easy for one's opponent to grab it and hold on. The knob also balances the stick for the third type of strike, wherein one releases the weak hand and swings the small end like a whip. This is especially effective against the lower leg, painfully impacting either shin or kneecap and keeping the stick out of grabbing range.

There is, of course, much more; these are only a few basic principles. Besides personal instruction, there are numerous DVDs and tapes available on the web, which I recommend highly--but beware; your friend should probably avoid the fancy Asian styles of stickfighting and stick to simpler forms.

[cnorman18]

For someone untrained in knife fighting, a hawkbill or hook-type knife is a good choice. These claw-like blades are particularly popular in the UK as agricultural knives or pruning knives. They will serve, but the best of the breed is the Spyderco Civilian, and next best is its little brother, the Harpy. They both have hooked, needle-pointed and deeply serrated blades which penetrate both leather and fabric like tissue paper and inflict devastating, deep wounds. They are pure slashing knives, poor for thrusting, but hard to beat for inflicting massive damage in untrained hands. The shape of the blade itself makes wounds larger and deeper, since the hook digs in and makes the blade follow the body during a slash rather than glancing off after inflicting a small wound. The Civilian in particular is a single-purpose defense knife; it has no utilitarian value at all, except perhaps for cutting rope or a seat belt in an emergency.

These knives are very effective and rarely lethal, but using them is very serious business. They don't make trivial little scratches. Hook-type blades can inflict disabling wounds that are difficult with other kinds of blades. One can dig the tip into the inner elbow and "pop" tendons with little effort; same with the hamstring tendons behind the knee. Both of these are crippling wounds that will require extensive surgery to repair, and in the meantime the limb is useless. A slash across the eyes will put a mugger out of business permanently, because blind men don't mug anybody. A quick stroke across the abdomen with a hawkbill blade will disembowel an attacker--which is rarely a fatal wound these days, but can be counted on to give an attacker better things to do than continue his attack--like trying to hold his insides in till he can get to a hospital. The claw blade is particularly nasty when hooked under the chin or jawbone, into an eyesocket, or into a collarbone, while performing even a clumsy hip or ankle throw; they go down like felled trees rather than try to fight the pressure of the blade. James Keating sells a DVD with instruction specifically tailored to the Civilian, and it can get a lot nastier than this.

If you don't want to kill, stay away from the neck and inner thigh with these blades--and enough said on that.

Whatever knife you choose, make sure it's razor-sharp, then leave it alone. Touch up the edge every few months if necessary--but use it for nothing. Keep it reserved for defense and nothing else. If you have a need for a working knife, carry a second one. In my experience, Spyderco blades come razor-sharp out of the box; so do Kershaw, CRKT, Cold Steel, Gerber, and some others, but not all do. Case makes a fine pocket knife, but I've never had a new one that came with a satisfactory edge--and I collect them. If you buy a Spyderco knife, you'll need a sharpener from the same firm; nothing else works on their serrated blades.

Yes, if you're wondering, I do carry a Civilian; also Fox 5.3 pepper spray and, often, a stout stick from my small collection. When I finally get my CHL, I will probably continue to carry all three. One can never be too well armed, in my opinion--and if what I've told you about one of these weapons turns out to be BS when the bell rings, maybe it won't be with another. Let's hope none of us--me, you, or your friend--ever has to find out.

I hope this has helped--but remember, this is all second- or third-hand information. Consult an expert with a good reputation if you want to get the straight dope. I'm just some well-meaning schmoe on the Internet.

[hso]

I'll agree with JShirley and go a bit further.

Battlefield techniques are not the same as self defense techniques on the street and a suggestion to apply a coup de gras to an attacker who's attack you've stopped is advice to commit murder in a self defense situation.

[cyclist]

The dog will always remain a companion.

Might want to check on local "dangerous breed laws" when deciding on what companion to pick as a pet.

This is interesting:
http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/dubh.html


Sometimes it don't take much,
intent oft times drives the following analysis
and the scrutiny of justice.

[woodybrighton]

knife fightings mostly bull**** if you think you can disable without killing with a blade bit like shooting to wound with a 7.62 nato round not really going to happen.:mad:
better off with a stick big dog 70yr old bloke with a stick not going to be hassled by police unless drunk and raising trouble:mad:

[Pax Jordana]

Disabling can be done, with one caveat: People are essentially big meatballoons full of blood. So, any effective disabling carries a real threat of bleeding out.

Say you manage to get the guy across the inside of his wrist. Sure, you can cut tendons but to get that deep you're also going to sever the brachial artery. Same at the elbow, inside the bicep, under the arm.. And what if the guy's on drugs?

Point is, you have to decide whether or not your life is worth more than his. If it is, at all costs, win. If not, take your chances. Nonlethal disabling cuts (hopefully lacking samurai coup de grace) sound nice, but the point is to worry about yourself first - him later.

[Blade_Zero]

Quote from HSO:
Third, you've got to have the will to use it. Are you willing to cut and stab another person. Not just brandish a knife, but actually sink it into another person or slash them deeply enough to sever a limb. That's what we're talking about.


HSO,
I would have actually prioritised this to be your primary constraint, talking about and training in, knife combat, is one thing but how many people who intend to use an edged tool in SD, have prepared themselves to overcome the psychological barrier of cutting another human's flesh. If this preparation hasn't been conducted, it's fairly likely some hesitation will occur, that hesitation is all your attacker will need to defeat you.

I would think this psychological barrier may be lessened, if you were used to gutting, cleaning & butchering game or have a surgical background ect.