I've tried to post this a few times in the last few weeks, lost the post 3 different ways, maybe the 4th time's the charm.
I'm shopping for a 9mm semi-auto.
High capacity, 15+1 minimum, quality mags need to not be prohibitively expensive
I dislike pistols that are much smaller that a Glock 19
Good iron sights, I really like the stock sights on the CZ75B
Not fussy about ammo types, or steel-cased ammo
As accurate as I am at least.
Blued, Parked, Painted finish, the only exception to this would be the P89 which is pretty much the only stainless firearm I'd consider buying
I would like:
Condition 1 carry (WI doesn't have CHL yet, someday maybe)
Able to tolerate some neglect (I always clean after shooting but in a critical situation I need to know it's gonna go bang when I squeeze the trigger)
Excellent customer service/support if I'm buying a new gun
What I've looked at:
Glock 17 and 19: I like the fact that you can use the ~30 round mags and they are both pretty light, I'm not too sure on my finger placement with the 19 though, I don't have the biggest hands in the world but it felt a little crowded. Also prices in my area seem to be out of sight, like $640+ for even the most basic models.
Taurus 92b: Heavy! Clerk didn't seem to know much about it, as far as price for magazines and the like, price was good though. The weight just seemed a bit much for an unloaded auto.
CZ75: Like I said above, I loved the stock sights on this one. The ergonomics were great, I could barely feel the weight of the pistol it fit my hand so well. I've been doing a lot of reading on this one and I'm still not real clear on the differences between the various models. Again, the 2 places that stock them locally seem to be about $150-200 high in the price department.
Ruger p89: People seem to either love or hate this one, including the clerks. Price seems to be pretty good and I'm only interested in the stainless finish with this one. I haven't been able to find out a whole lot about it though that doesn't come prefaced by "This gun sucks! Here's why..." or conversely: "This is the greatest weapon ever devised! Here's why you suck..." Bill Ruger's been in the ground for 5 years so if you've got a comment on this one keep it on the gun, not the man.
Aside from those I'm pretty open to suggestions, not a big fan of the XD or the USP, but any guidance you can offer within what I've laid out wold be appreciated.
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September 23, 2007, 05:56 PM
http://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/resize.asp?path=D:\hshome\dsmith\genitron.com\HandgunDB\Images\browning-hpp.jpg&width=320Ive always heard good thing about the Browning although Ive never shot one.
September 23, 2007, 06:17 PM
Having shot CZ 75’s I can tell you they are reliable, accurate and not fussy about ammo. Mine have eaten steel and aluminum cased rounds as well as brass. Well worth the price they are among the best values and rarely disappoint.
September 23, 2007, 06:22 PM
The browning Hi-power is a good gun, depending on who made it.
From your list I would choose the Glock 19. Reliable, light, high capacity, a million accessories available. The only draw back to the Glock is the grip. There is only so much you can do if your hand does not fit the gun.
If fit is a concern, go with the CZ. They have countless models available to meet just about any need. Plus they are very affordable.
You mentioned customer service... I think the firearms industry is overall the worst industry in the world for this area. However, some companies have raised the bar, specifically Springfield and Smith and Wesson.
If you get a chance, handle a S&W M&P. Otherwise, my vote is on the Glock 19.
September 23, 2007, 07:18 PM
Looks like you don't really need any advice from us , you got it well covered but my preference is the CZ75B followed by a BHP .
September 23, 2007, 07:25 PM
Glock or CZ would be the two options on your list I'd be looking at. Personally I prefer the CZ, but the Glocks work as well or better for other people, which suits you best probably boils down to shooting each, if you can, and seeing which works better in your hand.
As for the price, do you have the option of an FFL transfer? You can get reasonable prices from Bud's Gun Shop and other places online that do a lot of FFL transfer sales, if some local place will serve as a receiving FFL for you. (Check pawn shops that don't do a lot of volume on gun sales, they seem to usually be more willing to get the business than dedicated gun stores.)
September 23, 2007, 07:31 PM
You could try to find a refurbished or used Sig P226 for that price.
I'd say the better 9mm pistols out there are the BHP, Sig, Beretta, and CZ.
You can't go wrong with any of those.
September 23, 2007, 07:41 PM
Since you mentioned carrying in Condition One, you might look at the SAO version of the Armalite AR-24. It's a CZ-75 semi-clone made in Turkey to VERY high standards. It has a forged steel frame, which is hard to come by in today's aluminum and polymer market. The write-ups that I've read all have been positive. However, it is relatively new in the marketplace, so further research is warranted.
Another candidate might be the FNP-9. Again, the write-ups all are positive, and FN is one of the top firearms manufacturers in the world.
September 23, 2007, 07:50 PM
any of the ones you mentioned should perform well for your requirements,get whichever fits you the best.
September 23, 2007, 07:53 PM
You need to shop elsewhere.
$640 is much too high for a basic Glock.
Get it at a gun show. The bigger the show, the lower the prices.
September 23, 2007, 07:59 PM
The FNP-9 should fit your hand and price range, plus it holds 16, and comes with three magazines. Mine eats any type of 9MM.
September 23, 2007, 09:15 PM
September 23, 2007, 09:39 PM
From what you've described, I'd definitely shop around! You should be able to get a standard CZ 75B for around $400-$450. Bud's Gun Shop has them for $405 delivered. It's hard to beat a CZ, although I prefer the decocker version (CZ 75BD) over the "cocked and locked" style.
The biggest drawback (IMHO) to the Ruger P89 is the lack of aftermarket support. Few choices for sights and holsters. It's a solid (but chunky!) gun that will go BANG every time.
Not much of a Glock fan. The second gun I bought was a G17. It was okay, but I just sold it a few weeks ago.
You might also want to consider the new Beretta PX4 Storm. 17+1 rounds, excellent ergonomics, a rotating barrel lock up system that really manages recoil. Bud's has them for $506 delivered...so still in your price range. Lots of aftermarket support, including holsters, night sights and magazines.
September 23, 2007, 09:46 PM
You mentioned that you didn't like the grip on the Glock 19. An alternative gun with a very ergonomic and comfortable grip is the Walther P99, which can be found for under $600. The P99 in 9mm takes a 15 round magazine, and the gun has a great reputation for reliability.
Prices seem high.
CZ75BD is a very good gun. Specify the BD part if ordering or buying this model.Other CZ75 models don't necessarily have a decocker to safely lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. If you are used to lowering the safely hammer of a gun onto a live round and don't need the decocker then disregard this.
PT92s are good guns. There's a couple in-house gunsmiths at www.taurusarmed.net who have can answer things aobut them or have written "how to" parts for the Smithing section.
Ruger makes the P series pistols in polymer such as the P95 which is a rugged dureable pistol.
None of these three brands mentioned should break the bank for you.
Taurus does make the PT 911 which is the smaller, 15+1 mag and gun count, cousin of the PT92. Same basic layout of the gun's controls, and fit and fuction. Big enough to be a service gun yet just a might smaller for CCW carry over the PT92.
September 23, 2007, 10:06 PM
I bought my CZ 75 Compact at Buds and it was the cheapest price I found, in store or on the internet. Great gun. Mike
September 23, 2007, 10:20 PM
www.taurusarmed.net can be checked out for the Taurus.
www.rugerforum.net and www.rugerforum.com for the Rugers.
http://p201.ezboard.com/bczechpistols82792 for the CZs.
Go to the specialty boards and ask around,check old and new threads, and do searches if needed at any of these forums.
As for bias, it cannot be discounted.
At all these forums the owners of any of these brands normally also own other brands,makes and models of guns as well. These are all an eclectic bunch of gun owners and privy to much wisdom.
One does not go to a Ford dealer to learn about GM products.:)
September 23, 2007, 10:26 PM
CZ 75b, they are hard to find in NJ, but when I did it was under $500 for a new one.
The King of Pants
September 23, 2007, 10:49 PM
I've been following the thread all evening, lot of helpful responses so far, thanks for that!
Oh I know the prices are high around here. Basically unless you can use it for deer or ducks, there's not a big market for it in western WI. I'd say odds are anything I get at this point will likely be transfered through a pawn shop I found that was more than happy to do the deed.
That said, I'm not overly worried about after market sights, I'll get any necessary upgrades pre-installed on the gun when I buy it. I'm gonna try to get to handle a P89 some more latter this week, and try to track down a FNP-9.
Does anyone know much about the availability and price of after market hi-caps for the CZ or Ruger? The Glocks seem to be readily available for $20 or less, but the others seem scarce. Also are the mags for the SP-01 compatible with the CZ75?
September 23, 2007, 11:14 PM
www.cdnnsports.com ,www.jgsales.com ,www.gunclips.net ,www.cheaperthandirt.com , and www.mec-gar.com/ are where I get my Ruger P series magazines at.
September 24, 2007, 01:32 AM
I would recommend the Taurus 24/7. 17+1 and reliable, durable, accurate, less then 600 bucks
The FNP9 would be another great choice,
Also if you dont mind a heavy trigger you could check out the Sigma 9ve
September 24, 2007, 01:52 AM
I haven't seen anybody mention a Springfield XD9 yet. It should do what you want it to do. I plan on picking a sub-compact up for a CCW eventually, but they are made in full-size models also.
I already have a P89, and I do like it very much, and it likes me too. It fits my hand pretty much like I would have designed. It pretty much fits the bill for all you've mentioned. As for the greatest gun ever devised, I don't know about that, but I do know I won't be selling mine anytime soon. I did a test with mine, using WWB ammo, I went over 600 rounds without cleaning it, and did not have any problems at all, bang every time. Not ideal for CCW though, but you did mention that it presently not a problem for you.
Good luck in your search!!!
September 24, 2007, 05:52 AM
I have a CZ75BD. Love the pistol. It is reliable and cheap. It likes all sorts of ammo. Never had one failure and is accurate. I also have a P95. Some one mentioned this pistol. The one I have is accurate and reliable. Either weapom sounds good.
I think it would be most helpful to look on the internet and then get your FFL pawn shop to transfer. New CZ are about 450 and with transfer that would put it just about 500 that should be about the same for the P95.
both weapons are more accurate than I am.
September 24, 2007, 05:59 AM
budsgunshop.com has the 24/7 Pro 9mm for 365 shipped, with your dealer transfer fee you should be right about 400 bucks ;)
Try the FNP, I've had great success with my compact model. The grip may be a little short for some, but I imagine the full size is rather comfortable. My FNP9-M will eat even the sloppiest of reloads, and the pistol seems like it's built like a tank. As far as condition one, there is a SA variant of the pistol, there are also DA/SA w/ decocker, and DAO versions.
September 24, 2007, 04:24 PM
My first thought was for the Browning Hi Power and then the USP 9. Then, I thought of the new M&P 9. The new M&P seems to be a nice poly gun at a pretty nice value to boot. I haven't had a chance to shoot one yet, but from those I've asked, they seem to be good shooters :D
September 24, 2007, 04:28 PM
budsgunshop.com has the 24/7 Pro 9mm for 365 shipped, with your dealer transfer fee you should be right about 400 bucks
I have a 24/7 for the nightstand. Very good weapon, but may be a little big for CCW. Magazines are also expensive compared to Glocks.
The King of Pants
September 24, 2007, 04:36 PM
I keep seeing Mec-Gar come up when looking for mags, are they a quality brand? I seem to remember people bad mouthing them but it might have been another brand.
September 24, 2007, 04:48 PM
M&P 9mm or Walther P99, SW99 clone
September 24, 2007, 05:18 PM
Hi, Have you looked at the Ruger Kp95DPR. Just got 1 from Bud's Gun room. Shoots great 15 rd mag, It is also on sale now Free shipping. Going to use it as my ccw
September 24, 2007, 05:27 PM
I second the suggestion of sfmittels; the AR-24 meets all your qualifications and is a superb handgun. I bought one a few weeks ago, and it was marked $499. The only downside to the gun is that it is so new to the market that after-market accessories are not yet available. Point of impact on my gun is two inches lower than point of aim at 20 yards, which makes it inconsistent with my other 9mm handguns and a distraction during IDPA competition. Eventually, I will find a set of after-market sights to fix the discrepancy. But beyond that, it truly is a fine gun "as is."
September 24, 2007, 07:28 PM
a few of the guys at work have XD's and they love them. I have been dieing to shoot one myself. one of my co-workers has a compact45 w'10rd mags but will take 13 rd mags and will extend the grip back to a full size grip.
the 9mm also comes with a 10rd/ shot ccw grip and i think you can get and a
15rnd mag for the compact mod which will give you a full size grip.
September 24, 2007, 08:08 PM
I gotta say, the 9mm 15 round pistol that actually fit my hand the best was a S&W 6946 with the +2 grip adapters. Meets all your requirements except for the finish which is stainless. I apologize in advance but I have to say that everyone who held that pistol with the 15 round mags in it commented on how nice it fit their hand-pretty concealable to boot. Not new and super fancy but mine was pretty accurate too. Any of the pistols you mentioned are pretty good too. Mike
September 24, 2007, 08:34 PM
LOOK AT THE XDs!!!
They have 3", 4", and 5" barrel, it is a great, gun almost got one in 9 mm but went for the .45 ACP tactical.
September 24, 2007, 09:30 PM
I would like to suggest you take a look at the Springfield XD9 Sub-Compact...One AWESOME gun!!!
EXCELLENT XD9 Subcompact ARTICLE at Officer.Com from their Law Enforcement Technology Evaluation Team…
“The off-duty firearm needs to be a deliberate consideration. Law Enforcement Technology tested the Springfield Armory's XD9 Subcompact and found that it exceeds this standard.”…..
Wow, EXCEEDS Law Enforcement standards...Haven't seen other guns which match that result....