Why we can't be trusted with bayonets...


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4v50 Gary
July 9, 2003, 09:02 PM
Well, we've heard theories of genetic memory and in reading Ernest Waitt's History of the Nineteenth Regiment Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry, 1861-1865, we can see why we, as Americans, cannot be trusted with bayonets:

"[O]n Monday morning, August 25 [1862], the Third Brigade embarked on the transport 'Atlantic' and were taken to Aquia Creek, stopping for a few hours at Fortress Monroe, where the men had an opportunity to inspect the big guns. The trip on the transport was a lively one. There were 100 officers in the cabin and 2000 men whereever they could find a place to stand. The three days' rations which the men were supposed to have, gave out, and the hard tack and port was stored at the bottom of the brigade wagon. The men were clamorous for food and resorted to all sorts of expedients to get it."

Well, that sets the scene for what follows and what follows is exactly why our black guns don't have bayonet lugs today. ;)

"One soldier, looking through the skylight of the cook's gallery, saw a pan of biscuit resting temptingly beneath. He procured a musket, fixed the bayonet and, reaching down, punched it through the pan and drew it up, biscuits and all, and had a 'square meal.' Others watched the waiter when he started for the officers' quarters with their dinner and took it away from him. This made the Captain of the boat very angry..."

So, it stands to reason that if our great great grandfathers couldn't be trusted, neither should we. :D

above cited from page 119-120

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JShirley
July 9, 2003, 09:36 PM
Nice, thanks.

And to think I was just telling a friend yesterday how our bayonets didn't really make our M16s and M4s more dangerous!

Mark Tyson
July 9, 2003, 09:40 PM
Ah, the dreaded bayonet.

*Gasp*

This is a weapon of war with no civilian purpose, favored by criminals and murderers nationwide! Our children are being skewered in the streets by the hundreds! Oh the humanity!

standingbear
July 9, 2003, 10:42 PM
bayonets are just another scary feature to the sheeple,nothing else.i dont even believe they are used by modern armies except as parade and drill purposes.they actually make the gun front heavy and more cumbersome in my opinion.just looks.

Devonai
July 9, 2003, 10:44 PM
I happen to be in the Third Brigade of the Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry, and I can tell you we're all bayonet crazy!

Mark Tyson
July 10, 2003, 09:30 AM
You wicked, thoughtless bayonet nuts!

Seriously, I don't think an American has killed anyone with a fixed bayonet since Vietnam. Bayonets today are used much more as cutting tools than weapons.

Ed Straker
July 10, 2003, 11:04 AM
Fix bayonets!

Why, are they broken?

:)

With a motivated YUT...

Keith
July 10, 2003, 12:25 PM
The Bayonet Ban is "for the children"

Pebcac
July 10, 2003, 12:46 PM
Bayonets are, in the eyes of the average person, a military fixture. The idea of bayonet lugs making a rifle an "assault weapon" is a reinforcement of the idea that firearms in the hands of civilians are to be used for hunting and sporting only. This line of thinking allows for a ban on all "military" arms (or calibers as in some countries), since "hey, we're not taking away your deer rifle."

Death from a thousand cuts, and this is one.

recal
July 10, 2003, 01:25 PM
"You'll put your eye out with that thing!"


Ungun people freak at the sight of military apparatus. You should have seen my Mom's face when I extended the bayonet on my Yugo SKS. Almost as funny as when I told her about the grenade launcher.:what:

Dorian
July 10, 2003, 01:39 PM
Our children are being skewered in the streets by the hundreds

Sont you mean: "Our biscuts are being skewered on the shelves by the dozens!"

RKCheung
July 10, 2003, 02:07 PM
Sorry, I have to disagree with y'all.

We used bayonets in Iraq to pierce the fuel cans of black-market gas dealers. :evil:

T.Stahl
July 10, 2003, 02:21 PM
Here in Germany, I could have the largest imaginable kitchen knife lying in a drawer, but would have to lock up a bayonet in a steel locker, just like my guns. :(

Sunray
July 10, 2003, 02:29 PM
Bayonts are a hazard to military people while on parade. They're almost as bad as the parades themselves. Your military drill is different but up here one 'dresses' the ranks by having them smartly drive their right arm to the next guy's shoulder. There have been instances of hands being driven onto the bayonet of the guy next door(Sterling SMGs). Never actually saw it though. Had enough trouble keeping the troopies from passing out.
One guy landed square on his chin on the concrete parade floor. Cracked some rear molars, split his chin for a bunch of stitches, bit his lip, the whole nine yards. He's ok though. He was still living last I saw him.

ed dixon
July 10, 2003, 02:59 PM
If we don't stand up for helpless biscuits, who will? (Oops, think I just saw Sarandon and Robinson rolling themselves in flour. Spoke too soon.)

Orthonym
July 10, 2003, 03:22 PM
The story I read had it that the people around Bayonne (France, not NJ:D )liked to go out shooting wild hogs, critters notoriously grumpy and hard to kill. This being the 17th century, all they had were muzzle-loaders. Supposedly someone shot a hog and didn't kill him; when the very angry hog charged him he had an instantaneous inspiration to jam the handle of his knife into the muzzle of his piece and thereby improvise a spear. (Create distance, as the tactical gurus would say.) This being such an obviously good idea, the military folks picked it up. After all, they'd rather hire 100 guys each of whom had both a musket and a sharp pointy thing than 100 guys with muskets and 100 guys with pikes. Now the guys with the guns could resist cavalry charges without having to depend on the pikemen. This was the genesis of the plug bayonet, later some genius invented the socket bayonet. (Anyone here know who?)

So, yes, the bayonet DOES have a sporting purpose, even if (I would suggest) one is using a modern weapon. Who among us has never had a misfire or other malfunction?

Anecdote: Back around the late 60s or early 70s my Mom and younger brother were driving the family station wagon (a huge old boat) on Alligator Alley at night. A wild boar ran in front of them and they hit it. They were able to drive home, but the insurance company "totalled" the car. The hog got up and ran away.

Orthonym
July 10, 2003, 06:31 PM
This is serious! A weapon is a weapon is a weapon! (apologies to Miss Stein) Sportin' purposes, self-defense purposes, military purposes, that-looks-cool-in-my-collection purposes, who cares? The right to keep and bear arms is seamless! What if someone thinks of a use for a bayonet (or other weapon) which no one else has yet thought of? Would that make the new function automatically evil, just because it's not on the approved list?



















1

Bainx
July 10, 2003, 07:10 PM
recal, welcome aboard! And yes, I would have paid good money to see your Mom's face when the bayonet was extended!:D
Kind of like when I extend the Mosin M44 bayonet at the firing range.

45R
July 10, 2003, 07:18 PM
I dont see a difference in having a bayonet vs. having a spear. You can get really sharp objects attached to a bambo stick in a martial arts catalog? The effect is the same it is just not attached to a rifle.......:confused:

Orthonym
July 10, 2003, 07:56 PM
Other things being equal, (i.e. the other fellow's rifle being empty) a spear works better. It can be _longer_.:D

OEF_VET
July 10, 2003, 08:03 PM
Sunray,

We've got much the same problem down here. When we'd do a parade with fixed bayonets, the First Sergeant (equal to your RSM IIRC) would constantly be reminding us to be mindful of our bayonets. Guys tended to pass out from the heat, making it kinda dangerous to be standing nearby.

Frank

4v50 Gary
July 10, 2003, 10:51 PM
You know if there is a problem today with guys cutting each other by accident with the bayonet, it must really have been a problem in the 1700-1800s. All they had were wool uniforms back then. :uhoh: Knowledge about dehydration - baah! That and heat prostration must await medical science's discovery & acknowledgement of such events before it can happen. Otherwise, it's just shirking ;) and if they're really sick, we'll bleed 'em. :scrutiny:

CGofMP
July 10, 2003, 11:25 PM
Folks, I am sorry but you are all just plain WRONG on this bayonet thing...

It is just impossible for me to understand why ANY civilian would find the need to obtain or own a bayonet. I think that you guys may have some growing up to do here... there is no possible civilian need for a bayonet!

I have made my views much more clear and have written about this extensively on this Webpage (Click Here to view) (http://www.memorableplaces.com/m1garand/yuppiepateknife.html) and I'd like to encourage all of you to rethink this John Wayne mentality and perhaps even join me in This TRUE solution to the gun and military equipment problem (http://www.memorableplaces.com/m1garand/yuppiepage.html) which so many sophomoric adult males find themselves involved in.

Truly I think you should all join me in making this solution to the bayonet problem (http://www.memorableplaces.com/m1garand/yuppiepateknife.html) work for the betterment of our fellow citizens.


Thanks.

Charles

4v50 Gary
July 10, 2003, 11:50 PM
Charles,

regarding the historic use of bayonet, besides being a useful tool for foraging (when the British Light Division marched out of Badajoz, they carried bread, hams, tongues and other perishables on their bayonets), it also served as a tent stake or as a candleholder (during the Civil War). Using the honored bayonet for serving pate is out of place.:scrutiny: First, the bayonet may be too long. Second, the bayonet is better used to carve the turkey. Last, you can still serve dinner rolls on one. Pan (bread) ala Light Division. :cool: It's a good way to teach the kids from grabbing too. ;)

Gary

George Hill
July 11, 2003, 12:13 AM
Can I get an M9 Bayonet for my M9 Beretta?

HBK
July 11, 2003, 02:08 AM
You don't want a bayonet, you'll poke your eye out.:neener:

Glamdring
July 11, 2003, 03:19 AM
Bayonets?

I'd rather carry a hatchet or tomahawk, if I really need a backup to my handgun that is backing up my rifle ;)

But maybe I spent to much time studying Roger's Rangers?

Orthonym
July 11, 2003, 05:55 AM
Let's hope they don't find out about the bottle opener on the Galil. Don't those Israelis have twist-off caps?

280PLUS
July 11, 2003, 06:32 AM
"the bayonet is better used to carve the turkey"

you mean the "turks" right? :evil:

from what ive heard/read the bayonet was used more for its fear factor than anything else.

the object of a bayonet charge was to cause the enemy to turn and run for it

now how can i get this old french bayonet ive got laying around adapted to my xm15?

:neener:

jeff4570
July 11, 2003, 06:58 AM
There still is a use for a bayonet , When you are out of ammo its harder to take the gun away .

samwise
July 11, 2003, 11:50 AM
I agree in that the looks I get when I put the bayonet out on my M44 are priceless. I couldn't imagine the M44 without one. (guess if I did it would be a M38 :) ) The right to bear arms should be seamless and that if I want a baynoet on my CZ75 then I should darn well be allowed to have one.

jeff4570
July 11, 2003, 01:13 PM
280PLUS: In the early days after you expended your one shot in the heat of battle , one might not be able to reload in the open field therefore making the bayonet essential !
Modern bayonets themselves are useful tools but on the rifle I can see only one use as I stated in my other post.

DadOfThree
July 11, 2003, 02:10 PM
Can I get an M9 Bayonet for my M9 Beretta?
George, you could, but I wouldn't advise you to carry it Mexican style :what:
:D :D :D

blue86buick
July 11, 2003, 02:17 PM
CGofMP: I know that webpage is a farce, but I hope your post is too. :uhoh:

if not...it IS your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

CGofMP
July 11, 2003, 03:35 PM
Oh dear.....

Yes yes yes... please let it be known to all far and wide that my post above was just me being silly and introducing that bayonet control webpage in the same vein as that page is written!

I am many things but a hypocryte is not one of them.

Please let me introduce you to *MY* 16 inches of steel!
http://www.memorableplaces.com/m1garand/ourm1s/batocan.jpg

Okay that sounded like a really bad pick up line...

In any case rest assured I can guarantee you that I am for law abiding citizens having any nearly ANY personal weapon they want... from fingernail clippers to belt feds... have at it!

Charles

280PLUS
July 11, 2003, 03:47 PM
but the bayonet charge was still meant more in the lines of making your enemy turn and run for it than to kill him

now don't make me have to go find the quotations to back myself up,,,

:D

aw heck, heres a link (if it works)

www.angelfire.com/ny5/firstwar77/18thcombat.html

scroll to the bottom of the page

m

Orthonym
July 11, 2003, 05:32 PM
"Many men are scared by the bayonet, but few are wounded by it."- Patton. Now I'll go look on the link and see if you have it there.:)

The bayonet still works just fine for its original purpose; hunting wild boars with a muzzle-loader. It still works just fine for its second purpose; repelling cavalry charges while standing in a square. I don't do either of those things. The reason I want one on my rifle is so I can stick the bayonet's point into the ground and thereby keep my nice clean weapon out of the mud and dirt. Of course, this rather ruins its utility for cleaning under my fingernails.

280PLUS
July 11, 2003, 05:40 PM
you'll make it too dull for shaving too,,,

:D

LostOneToo
July 11, 2003, 10:05 PM
Back when I was a Drill Sgt in the Army, just after they changed over from muskets to breech-loaders, they would not issue bayonets to the basic trainees because they kept cutting/stabbing themselves!!!! :what:

Boats
July 12, 2003, 12:38 AM
I can tell that the evil, free-spirited, bayonet I sometimes fix onto my Garand simply doesn't attract the right kind of people. . .





















. . . or else it would have long since taken it upon itself to centerpunch a latter day communist by now. Must be why they tried to ban their affixation to newer rifles these past nine years. There's getting to be more communists every day.:evil:

blue86buick
July 12, 2003, 12:53 AM
Charles: i figured as such...just checkin :)

I gotta get me a bayonetable gun, and the steel for it...because it looks scary (to gun haters), and because someone thinks I shouldn't have one. :evil:

oh yeah, and to pick my teeth with when something is stuck. :D

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