MYTH of Chrome lined bores busted


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dstorm1911
September 25, 2007, 11:13 PM
I'm really tired so am just going to copy/paste from the thread about this I setup on Surplus rifles

O/K Folks what ya are about to see isn't pretty so maybe ya should leave the room and have your 5 year old describe the pictures to ya to reduce your exposure........

A lil back ground, what ya are about to see is a brand new Romanian G kit barrel....... yes Chrome lined bore etc... this barrel came out of a customers AK which I built 6 months ago, it was a pristine unissued kit built on an NDS-1 reciever well he got busted by the Pima county Sheriffs dept the very first time he took it out shooting...... a grand total of 5 Boxes of Wolf black box fired through it and it was confiscated he was cited for discharging a firearm within 1/4 mile of a road etc... well...... it was his own private road but thats neither here nor there it took him 4 months to get his brand new rifle back and to clear his name, it has sat in a plastic evidence bag for 4 months, was never cleaned as obviously the cops got no reason to clean your gun......... here is the barrel, the gas piston the slant break (which I had to heat with a torch and twist off with a pipe wrench) and next to it is the "fix" a brand new hammer forged NON- CHROME LINED Yugo barrel......

Ya know it aggravates the hell outa me when someone who has owned an AK for a week or two will try to argue with me about chrome lined bores versus non-chrome lined bores or corrosive ammo versus NON-corrosive ammo when I've not been doin this for a week not a year not even 5 years I have been dealing with nothing but military weapons and ammo for 34 years! When I tell ya that chrome lining has NOTHING to do with corrosion prevention and everything to do with allowing a full auto machine gun barrel to last longer by generating less heat via friction then ya know what........ I'm not saying it cause I love typeing so much or because I listen to the marketing BS dealers will try to push onto consumers I'm saying it cause I've been dealin with these things my entire life.......

A chrome lined barrel means absolutally nothing in a semi auto rifle, it doesn't mean your safe if ya don't clean your rifle it dorsn't mean your protected from corrosive ammo etc... it means that if ya can make your AK fire 600 rounds in one minute the chances are the bore will hold up better than a non chrome lined bore due to less friction....... thats it....

As I've told people a thousand times at least DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN ON THE AMMO BOX!!! The Europeans really could care less about what primers they use in your cheap ammo, they are going to use whatever primers they get the best deal on........ the box will ALWAYS say NON CORROSIVE and if ya trust that then look at the pics above cause thats what your destined to end up with...... if it is a MILITARY CALIBER ya need to clean as if for corrosive regardless what ammo ya put in it.......


Excuse Typos etc.. please I'm barely keepin my eyes open right now

the parent thread can be found here, there are some more pics in it, as well as a reply to someone who thought maybe the cops tampred with this one gun outa a few hundred in their evidence room simply to make it rust etc... please excuse if the writing seems irritated........ I am....... its been onea them days ya just wish ya'd stayed in bed ;)

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=40691

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Shear_stress
September 25, 2007, 11:28 PM
Interesting post, but I am not sure any myths got busted here. First off, chrome-plating makes a barrel corrosion resistant, not corrosion-proof. I doubt you'll find many people who would claim that a chrome-lined barrel will never rust. Second, the outside of the barrel ain't chromed. It's entirely possible for rust to start on the outside and work its way inside under the chrome (as it appears in the pics above). I saw the exact same thing beginning to happen on one of my Saigas before I wiped the rust off the crown. Third, is the inside of the gas tube or the breechface chromed on that gun? Fourth, if chrome lined bores are just for machine-guns and has nothing with corrosion resistance, than why do manufactures bother to do it for semi-auto rifles (SKS) and pistols (CZ-82, Arcus, etc)?

dstorm1911
September 25, 2007, 11:39 PM
exactly, the point is for all of those who will tell ya that if the barrel is chrome lined ya do not need to worry about corrosive primed ammo or cleaning for it etc... yes ya do need to clean for it and yes ya can still get corrosion etc...

trueblue1776
September 25, 2007, 11:39 PM
Accuracy Systems has a great write-up on lined vs. unlined

about half way down the page, titled "#2 Shot Out Barrel"

http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com/about_the_barrels.php

LeibstandarteAdH
September 25, 2007, 11:40 PM
These are serious questions, im not trying to push that chrome lined bores are better or more reliable ect... because i have no detailed personal experience with this exact subject. But,

why did armalite/ the u.s. DOD make such a big deal out of chromeing the bores in Viet-Nam era M16's after the big reliability issues, and that by doing so they were "improving relibility" via souposedly making extraction easier and the like?

Also why would/did the japs chrome their 7.7 Arisaka barells? What would be the point in chrome lining a bolt action 7.7mm Arisaka rifle barell when all it would do is make the gun less accurate?

Shear_stress
September 25, 2007, 11:50 PM
exactly, the point is for all of those who will tell ya that if the barrel is chrome lined ya do not need to worry about corrosive primed ammo or cleaning for it etc... yes ya do need to clean for it and yes ya can still get corrosion etc...

I think the point is that anyone who makes extreme statements tends to be wrong. The fact that a chrome-lined bore will still rust doesn't mean it isn't more rust resistant. The fact that you have a chromed barrel that rusted after months of neglect in a plastic bag doesn't disprove that. The argument that "people claim that a chromed barrel will never rust" is a strawman. Again, lots of manufacturers go to the effort of chrome-lining bores when they don't have to. Machine gun only? I've got cheap shotguns with chromed bores.

gb0399
September 25, 2007, 11:57 PM
who doesn't clean their guns anyway?

dstorm1911
September 26, 2007, 12:01 AM
Shear stress, what the "MYTH" is and if ya deal with AKs and building and selling AKs everyday ya will hear it constantly, Some people believe that you do not have to worry about cleaning a chrome lined barrel after shooting corrosive ammo......

So far you are saying the EXACT same thing I am saying so I guess that means you are wrong then right? Read my post very slowly then you might want to visit the link ya will discover you are and I are talking about the same thing partner...

here it is all by itself

CLEAN YOUR GUN REGARDLESS OF IF ITS CHROME LINED OR NOT.... IT CAN STILL RUST

easier for ya?

springmom
September 26, 2007, 12:04 AM
who doesn't clean their guns anyway?

People whose guns get confiscated for four months?????

But yes. Clean your rifles. Every time.

Springmom

Double Naught Spy
September 26, 2007, 12:05 AM
You know, I have never heard that a chrome-lined barrel would not corrode or that it was safe from corrosive ammo.

Shear_stress
September 26, 2007, 12:06 AM
Read my post very slowly then you might want to visit the link ya will discover you are and I are talking about the same thing partner..

Nope. I'm referring to this statement in your original post.

A chrome lined barrel means absolutally nothing in a semi auto rifle, it doesn't mean your safe if ya don't clean your rifle it dorsn't mean your protected from corrosive ammo etc... it means that if ya can make your AK fire 600 rounds in one minute the chances are the bore will hold up better than a non chrome lined bore due to less friction....... thats it..

As I say above, that ain't it. It doesn't doesn't mean nothing.

dstorm1911
September 26, 2007, 12:10 AM
Shear stress........... that statement is sayin exactly what you are sayin...... ya will still get rust, the only thing chrome will do for sure is allow for less friction under full auto fire it does not make ya immune to corrosion etc.... now go re-read your own statements about the gas block etc... please I am too d@mned tired to try explainin it 30 times

Shear_stress
September 26, 2007, 12:11 AM
Shear stress........... that statement is sayin exactly what you are sayin...... ya will still get rust, the only thing chrome will do for sure is allow for less friction under full auto fire it does not make ya immune to corrosion etc.... now go re-read your own statements about the gas block etc... please I am too d@mned tired to try explainin it 30 times

Yes, and I'm too damned tired to explain the difference between something that's "X-proof" versus "X-resistant". *No one* is arguing that chrome makes a bore corrosion proof. That's the strawman part of your argument. If a chrome-lined bore has rusted, that doesn't mean it wasn't corrosion resistant. Sheesh.

My statement about the gas block was actually a question. I asked if it was chromed.

Again, if "chrome lining has NOTHING to do with corrosion prevention and everything to do with allowing a full auto machine gun barrel to last longer by generating less heat via friction" than why do so many semi-automatic guns (including my Chinese SKS and Russian shotgun) have chrome lined bores?

Deaf Smith
September 26, 2007, 12:16 AM
Considering while diving in the ocean I find my stainless steel knives rust if I don't clean them with freash water that very day, I have no doubt corossive ammo will eat out a chrome bore!

I have a bunch of Yugoslavian AK ammo. I've researched, ALL Yugoslavian ammo IS corrosive. So next rifle class I take, that's the ammo I take. I'll shoot up every round I have, and use Windex right there to keep the bore going till night. And that night take my AK to pieces and clean with soap-n-water (including the gas system!)

As I said, no doubt it will ruin even a chrome bore!

lencac
September 26, 2007, 01:24 AM
Wow this is quite a thread Storm. Need I mention the original M16s and the jamming problems they had. Part of the fix was proper maintenance and the other part of the fix was using chrome lined barrels as specified by the original engineers. Anyway, no matter what you shoot if you are not cleaning the firearm after shooting then perhaps you should find a different hobby (of course green teef, tabacco spittin, redneck hillbillie hunters excluded). But then again if your shootin an SKS or AK thing ....... then who cares :neener:

GunTech
September 26, 2007, 01:46 AM
Sorry, a chromed bore cannot rust, hard chrome doesn't oxidize. It can corrode in the presence of chemicals, but it doesn't rust. It doesn't spontaniously corrode in the presence of oxygen even in the presence of water vapour.

Gator
September 26, 2007, 02:07 AM
A chrome lined bore will have a longer service life than a non chromed one. That is the only justification I have ever heard for them; and it's a good one. For example, a 30,000 round life expectancy for a steel M14 barrel, and 50,000 rounds for a chromed one. I have never heard that chrome lining prevents rust/corrosion.

lencac
September 26, 2007, 02:12 AM
Rust, corrosion, now we're just playin semantics. How bout if it subject to electrolisis :neener:

Alaskapopo
September 26, 2007, 02:14 AM
Chrome does help reduce/prevent corrosion and rust. Its also a lot easier to clean.
pat

GunTech
September 26, 2007, 02:16 AM
The rational for the military adopting chrome bores in WWII was protection from corrosion in jungle environments, the same problem that popped up in early M16s in Vietnam. Recall that the army specified chrome bores for M16s, but McNamara's whiz kids saw this foot dragging, and veto'd the change.

Once chrome bores were added to M16s, a lot of the jamming - a result of chamber corrosion, ended.

See Ezell's "The Black rifle" amongst many, many other references.

lencac
September 26, 2007, 02:16 AM
Hey Gator, where about in Crook Co.? I was born and raised in Oak Park

Whitman31
September 26, 2007, 02:36 AM
Chrome does help reduce/prevent corrosion and rust. Its also a lot easier to clean.
+1 on the easier to clean, no comment on corrosion...

cracked butt
September 26, 2007, 06:16 AM
a grand total of 5 Boxes of Wolf black box fired through
I would also say this might have a bit to do with the problem as well. The wolf garbage is great for making noise and getting your barrel hot, but don't even believe their labeling when it says non-corrosive- always assume wolf is corrosive.

U.S.SFC_RET
September 26, 2007, 07:34 AM
I believe that chrome lined barrels was to extend the life of the barrel through the sheer amount of rounds expended through the barrel. The trade off was accuracy. Everyone knows that chrome doesn't rust but Like the original poster says it's not rust proof. You are looking at extreme heat and pressure plus the salts from the commie primers. All things being equal whenever you say European just remember that they are worlds apart within themselves as well British, German and then the former eastern bloc countries that spit out that AK ammunition whether it's surplus or made in former Russian ammunition factories.
When tha Iron curtain went down and I was in Germany I could have taken you to areas 2 miles apart that were literally worlds apart and vastly different. East Germans then used corrosive ammunition and the West Germans did not.

db_tanker
September 26, 2007, 08:13 AM
It doesn't spontaniously corrode in the presence of oxygen even in the presence of water vapour.

Hey GunTech,

if you want, I can invite you down here to the facility where I work at...Baker Hughes...I have personally seen mud-motors (they have chrome plated rotors inside the power section) with their rotors coming out looking like they were made of swiss cheese...there are all types of chemicals and environments out there that can destroy hard chrome. I am not trying to start a flame war, just trying to point out that chrome isn't as indestructable as everyone thinks...


OF COURSE...I don't see myself throwing my CUR2 or anyone throwing their AK's down a bore-hole anytime soon... :D

DMK
September 26, 2007, 08:40 AM
Gotta wonder what that barrel would have looked like it it wasn't chrome lined.

Also gotta wonder about the quality of the chromium coating on a cheap communist AK barrel.

Ash
September 26, 2007, 08:56 AM
Well, it can corrode, but water (the whole problem with corrosive ammo, the salts attracting water) won't make chrome rust. Come on, guys, we all remember the days when cars had chromed bumpers, don't we? They never rusted on the out-side. Never. But, rust could occur behind the chrome at the edges or around a ding/heavy scratch, such as the muzzle on a barrel. That rust would eventually cause bubbles of corrosion under the chrome and you could fleck the chrome away with your thumb nail.

I think we can safely say that chrome-lined bores are very corrosion resistant. We have to accept this because I have NEVER seen a rusted Chinese SKS barrel and those things have had all sorts of corrosive ammo fired through them. Go to the pawn shop this afternoon and check out the dusty SKS's in the corner, sitting beside the Mosins. Those abused Mosins will have rusted bores that are so bad, they look like a fat-man's navel. The SKS's won't be corroded at all. The Yugo's in the same corner will be rust-buckets, too.

I have seen this in years upon years upon years of checking out wares at pawn shops. Indeed, my sample numbers are high enough to draw a conclusion, especially in the South, with our high humidities. Chrome-lined bores do indeed allow a bore to resist corrosion, most of the time to a tremendous degree.

Ash

Double Naught Spy
September 26, 2007, 09:42 AM
Of course, it could be that the chrome lined barrel was improperly produced as well.

jkingrph
September 26, 2007, 09:52 AM
Sorry, a chromed bore cannot rust, hard chrome doesn't oxidize. It can corrode in the presence of chemicals, but it doesn't rust. It doesn't spontaniously corrode in the presence of oxygen even in the presence of water vapour.__________________
------
Sorry, a chrome bore man not rust but in the presence of corrosive compounds ie from corrosive primers it will react or oxidize (rust is the oxidation of iron(steel) in the presence of oxygen) . If you are old enough to remember, those nice huge chrome plated bumpers on cars would oxidize and turn dull. A bit of polishing compound would restore the shine. In certain environments they would oxidize through and start " rusting" rather quickly!

Onmilo
September 26, 2007, 10:04 AM
AK rifles and chrome lined bores, sigh.
If there is so much as a trace of oxidation on the surface that is chromium plated it will continue to oxidize if oxygen is allowed to reach the affected area.
I'm sure Com-Bloc factory workers slam those rifles out and adhere to strict quality control standards too while working for all those substandard wages and having their retirement benefits cut too.
If any chromium plating is poorly applied it will flake and almost always does in any area suffering from trace oxidation.
Once that happens the corrosive effects are free to roam wherever they can find a surface they can attack.

Oh yeah, AK rifles, especially AKM stamped and rivited rifles, aren't as indestructable as some people believe.

If you really want bore longevity and positive adherence to the base metal spend the big money and have your rifle bores stellite coated.

I am going to keep my chrome lined rifles.
They will still outlast any plain carbon steel barrel regardless of your stunning observation.

Slugless
September 26, 2007, 10:11 AM
Chrome does oxidize. The chrome barrel has a thin layer of chromium oxide a few molecules thick.

The reason chrome is so prized for its corrosion resistance is that chromium oxide is very hard, durable and hard to remove by erosion.

Pure chrome, or chrome-nickel compounds cannot, by definition, rust. Rust is for iron / steel.

Any rust color in the pictures is steel corrosion, not chrome. What you'll see from chrome corrosion is pitting, similar to the pic of what used to be the barrel crown.

The guys who remember chrome bumpers are right on - the steel around/behind it can rust. Chrome corrosion will show up as pitting or even cracks.

Interestingly, if there's moisture around, the chrome will accelerate the corrosion of the steel. It really is electrolysis like lencac postulates. It's why the rusting on a bumper that causes the chrome to flake can be aggressive.

It's the moisture in the plastic bag that ruined the weapon. That's the reason for all this controversy, most of us don't store a piece in a sealed plastic bag but in a climate controlled environment. Put bags of desiccant in your gun safe. Not to say you shouldn't clean your weapons.

berettashotgun
September 26, 2007, 10:13 AM
Chrome plating is a method used to rebuild the worn surface on aircraft landing gear shafts; it is very resistant to abrasive wear - it holds up better than the original "plain" steel alloy axle/shaft/bearing surface (whatever part).
The internal parts on a cummins or caterpillar fuel pump are chrome plated for wear resistance - those moving parts are very,very close tolerance; no internal seals are used on the throttle shaft on a cummins PT pump - the tolerance fit IS the seal. Throttle shafts come in 40 sizes @ 0.0001 increments - guess what I did for a living for 19 years?
Chromium CANNOT rust~ period. Not enough ferrous material to allow that.
Crappy, cheap flame sprayed or plasma deposited surface plating improperly applied in a machine shop environment can and usually does have ferrous metal induced into the chrome plating process, same goes with a tank type negative discharge deposit method. Cleanliness next to Godliness???
Never have seen any corrosion or "rust" on any of my Beretta shotguns internals- they have chrome plated bores and bolts on the semi auto's and just bores on the O/U's.
Besides, my Mini-14 and 30 never have rusted:neener:

kurtmax
September 26, 2007, 10:53 AM
IIRC chrome is used to prolong aircraft engine life. (Piston engines)

The piston-chambers (or whatever they are called) are bored out to be a bit wider and then chromed on the inside...

Also, I wouldn't rely on a chromed barrel to keep my rifle from rusting. I generally clean my firearms every time I shoot them. I haven't shot corrosive ammo yet, but I'd probably bring some soapy water and bore-snake to the range so I could swab it out a bit before I took it home and gave it a good cleaning.

Even if chrome-lining has no advantages (which is does have advantages), it doesn't hurt the rifle....

MechAg94
September 26, 2007, 11:02 AM
Slugless beat me to it. It is the thin layer of chrome oxide that forms on the surface that makes stainless steels corrosion resistant. Aluminum also forms an aluminum oxide coating on its surface, but it isn't near as hard as chrome oxide.

There are compounds and chemicals that can attack that chrome oxide layer and allow corrosion of the metal underneath. Chlorine for example.

For any corrosion resistant coating, as mentioned above, any scratches or flaws that expose the metal underneath will lead to corrosion in the right conditions. This applies to chrome plating as well as paint.

I agree with one poster on the first page: I have never heard anyone say a chrome plating bore is corrosion-PROOF. I have heard yahoos mouth off about other things related to guns quite often, I don't necessarily believe them (or even try to argue with them for that matter).

dstorm1911
September 26, 2007, 12:56 PM
As several have mentioned you will not see chrome itself rusting.... What caused the problem here is that a weapon barrel is not fully sheathed in chrome, that is the whole point, in this case the corrosion got under the chrome lining at the muzzle, and at the gas port the rust literally destroyed the steel as it traveled under the chrome and as the blistering continued the very thin layer of chrome was reduced to shiny shreds in the muzzle pics if ya look ya will notice a few of these bright flecks thats what was left of the chrome.

The gas port is drilled right through the chrome when the gas block is installed leaving an access point for corrosion to start, the muzzle is not chromed past about 1/16" into the crown area the rest is standard steel, having a threaded muzzle device creates a high pressure area which is going to get residue blasted into those threads with each shot, if not properly cleaned your bore will rust regardless of chrome lining or non chrome lining......

This customer wanted me to replace it with the hammer forged barrel for the accuracy, I simply turn back the shoulders on the Yugo barrel to match a standard AKM and walla.... the process of hammer forging makes for a much harder barrel as well as a more consistent barrel he decided if its gotta be rebuilt then he wants to go for accuracy potential, the button rifled barrel is softer steel, this is necessary in order to drag the button through creating the rifling with the hammer forged barrel they take a larger harder chunk of steel and place a mandrel inside of it then beat it with many thousands of hammer strokes condensing the steel around the mandrel which is made to a very precise dimensions impressing the rifling into the steel as its compressed by the hammer blows its then turned on a lath to get the external profile needed versus relying on how straight the drill bored the center of the barrel stock on a standard button rifled barrel etc...

If cleaned properly the harder steel will be a lil more resistand to normal corrosion than the softer steel found in a standard barrel the big advantage is in accuracy and why it was mentioned originally. NO GUN not even stainless is completally impervious to corrosion the point of the thread is for those who will tell ya that they do not need to worry about cleaning their AK as often because it is chrome lined..... WRONG

That was it

the naked prophet
September 26, 2007, 01:52 PM
That rust is not due to corrosive ammo. I've shot real corrosive ammo before, and that amount of rust can show up in a few hours, after four months it would look like it was growing big fuzzy orange mold.

Wolf is not corrosive. I'll bet that if the rifle had been siezed when new and unfired, it would have exactly that same amount of rust on it.

I've fired thousands of rounds of Wolf (both the old lacquer and new polymer) and several hundred of the silver bear, with no cleaning. I do have a chromed bore, but as was pointed out, that would not stop the gas tube or slant brake from rusting. It does make it easier to clean, just a couple oiled patches and it's clean.

cracked butt
September 26, 2007, 02:13 PM
Wolf is not corrosive. I'll bet that if the rifle had been siezed when new and unfired, it would have exactly that same amount of rust on it.


I've had a mosin nagant rust on me after letting it sit overnight after shooting Wolf ammo through it (I did not shoot any surplus or any other corrosive ammo through- just Wolf). Maybe I had a bad lot of the ammo, but I won't ever trust it to not be non-corrosive again. There might also be the possibility of corrosive materials that were also sitting in the pits of the already rough barrel being drawn to the surface when the barrel heated up- its my only other explanation.

BTW, I'm not a compulsive cleaner. I've let rifles go for months or even hundreds of rounds between cleanings- never had a smidge of rust or pitting ever, with the exception of a POS remington 597 which I couldn't stop from rusting no matter how much oil I put on it.

MD_Willington
September 26, 2007, 02:20 PM
I clean my Saiga after I shoot it, every time...

Not like cleaning a Kalashnikov is a Herculean task... Also a good time to teach my kids about firearms safety and maintenance...

lencac
September 26, 2007, 02:41 PM
As Slugless reiterated all rust/corrosion is a process called "electrolisis". It happens. Can't be completely stopped. Also I do believe that ALL primers weather new or old, boxer or berdan, ALL can start the electrolisis process to whatever great or minor degree. Point being, CLEAN your firearms after use. It all becomes moot then.

Well, I guess we beat this thread to death uh?

Rob96
September 27, 2007, 07:08 AM
Recall that the army specified chrome bores for M16s, but McNamara's whiz kids saw this foot dragging, and veto'd the change.


If you would remember correctly, Stoner did not use a chromed bore or chamber, adn the SF folks who originally fielded the AR had no trouble. Big Army came and changed the powder from spec, did not issue cleaning kits and told the troops the gun was "self cleaning" and problems abound. People tend to forget or moit that part.

For whatever it is worth, I just read an article on barrels and it sited that it doesn't matter to have a chromed chamber becasue it doesn't take too long to shoot the chrome out. As someone mentioned chrome doesn't corrode but it does flake. Read another report that this was the cause of barrel failures in military testing, some in as little as 500 rounds of full auto.

jkingrph
September 27, 2007, 09:06 AM
The guy talking about the aircraft engine cylinders is right on. Back when I fooled with model airplanes the better small engines were abc construstion, aluminum, brass, chromium, that combination in those high reving 30,000+rpm engines and the two cycle castor oil lube allowed them to run like that and give long life.

As someone said chrome does not rust, no it oxidizes. Rust is the term applied to the oxidation of iron and iron only and depending on conditions there are two types of rust, brown and red.

dstorm1911
September 27, 2007, 11:12 AM
naked prophet, that rust is after useing WD 40 trying to get the muzzle break off, it originally was the same blue fuzzy thats on the gas piston, after the brake was off it was then cleaned on a wire wheel and then more WD40 on a brass brush through the bore those pictures show the end results after cleaning and a torch to heat the brake so it could be removed with a pipe wrench.......

And that rifle sat in a shop NEW and UNFIRED with a swamp cooler running for 9 months before he bought it, before that it was a parts set cutup with a Torch and then left in a plastic bag for a few years...... guess ya don't build many AKs do ya? There are still another 43 of those NDS-1 recievered Rommanian G kit builds sitting in that same Arizona shop with that same swamp cooler pumping out moisture into the air right now that have been on those racks for the past year...... a few of em go with Don to the gun shows around the country every week to be sold........

There are another 300 of em sitting in wooden rifle crates built on NDS-3 recievers waiting for another ban to get passed..... then they will be sold at the going rate for a preban military configured AKM etc.... no rust on any of em........ guess that kinda blows that theory huh?


As far as Wolf being gauranteed non-corrosive......... ya just keep believing that , I have a 5 gallon bucket of corroded wolf cases (the inside of the cases, the outsides are clean) that were collected up after a training shoot we did at the Catalina Pistol club range with 3 of my my NFA registered AKs for the Pima county sherifs dept...... that particular lot of ammo (5,000 rnds) had 75% of the cases start showing corrosion within 4 days of sitting outside in ARIZONA we are not known for humidity down here in case ya weren't aware... the AK that barrel came outa it was bagged and stored in a Pima county Arizona evidence room, which BTW is cooled with Swamp coolers instead of AC as I found out yesterday well at least most of the year to save $$ when it gets to monsoon season barametric tampers close the cooler ducts and the AC system comes on line during the humid months......


ya might have fired thousands of rounds of Wolf ammo partner but I've BUILT thousands of AKMs from parts sets ever since 1983 and even torched trunions (Before B-West started serializing the recievers in 1988 we had to cut the front trunions as that was considered to be the actual gun as it was the serialized part, B-West convinced the ATF that the sheet metal was actually the gun so we got to start importing the trunions intact and just lose the shettmetal etc.. torch cutting promotes oxidation) then sealed in plastic bags and stored for decades has never resulted in that same blueish oxidation ya see on the face of that gas piston, thats EXACTLY what the results of corrosive primed ammo results in....... Anyone here who has ordered a T-53 chinese Mosin M44 from Omega can show ya what the rust looks like from being stored in Arizona without being fired through the humid monsoon season at the same shop...... none of em have any rust looking like the blue cr@p on that gas piston when those T-53s ship and they been stored there for 18 years! Same building same conditions etc...


OH and BTW, There is the lil issue of there not being any trace of rust on the rest of the gun...... anywhere so your rust that would have ocured unfired and new is really special right? it only effects the bore, the muzzle device, tha gas port/block and the face of the gas piston?????? do ya wanna think on that a minute or two and Edit your comment above to look less foolish?

Gewehr98
September 27, 2007, 12:05 PM
Pray tell, where are the pics of the inside of the corrosion inside the bore and chamber end? :confused:

And if the corrosion got underneath the chrome lining at the muzzle end, that really speaks more to the quality of the chrome lining process in the barrel factory vs. that particular metal's corrosion resistance, wouldn't you say? :scrutiny:

the naked prophet
September 27, 2007, 12:21 PM
.... no rust on any of em........ guess that kinda blows that theory huh?

No. It only means that the guns you had didn't rust, and the gun that did rust was in a different place. And no, I've never built an AK, not that it's relevant.

As far as Wolf being gauranteed non-corrosive......... ya just keep believing that

Didn't say guaranteed. Just said the thousands I fired were not corrosive, and the corrosive rounds I've fired were far more corrosive than your pictures show.

I have a 5 gallon bucket of corroded wolf cases (the inside of the cases, the outsides are clean)

Of course the inside is corroded and the outside is not. The outside is polymer coated and the inside is bare steel. Bare cheap steel, without a hint of chromium or other rust-inhibiting alloying elements.

that particular lot of ammo (5,000 rnds) had 75% of the cases start showing corrosion within 4 days of sitting outside in ARIZONA we are not known for humidity down here in case ya weren't aware.

In case you weren't aware, moisture or humitidy isn't required for corrosion or rust. It helps, but is not necessary. How about you wash out some Wolf cases thoroughly, make sure all "corrosive" residue is gone, then dry them out thoroughly. Set them, in the same conditions, outside and see if there's a difference in the rust.

Oh yeah, and in case you weren't aware, there is significant humidity in arid regions during certain times of the day - you do still get dew some mornings, don't you? In fact, if I remember correctly, condensation from dew (which will form more heavily on metal objects due to their higher heat capacity) actually exceeds rainfall for much of Arizona.

ya might have fired thousands of rounds of Wolf ammo partner but I've BUILT thousands of AKMs from parts sets ever since 1983 and even torched trunions then sealed in plastic bags and stored for decades has never resulted in that same blueish oxidation ya see on the face of that gas piston, thats EXACTLY what the results of corrosive primed ammo results in.......

Really? Cause all the rust I've seen from corrosive ammo has been orange. Granted, I've only fired old Czech corrosive 7.62x54R and Yugo M67 7.62x39, but those both caused orange fuzz if I didn't clean them immediately. Never had blue corrosion on my gun unless... unless... they had copper residue in the barrel, and I used a COPPER SOLVENT that turns the copper residue green. I'm willing to bet that he cleaned the gun before shooting it, and there was some residue left. Or maybe he lubed the gas piston with Hoppes #9, that will turn copper and brass a nice green color.


OH and BTW, There is the lil issue of there not being any trace of rust on the rest of the gun.

Well, you didn't say there wasn't rust anywhere else in your original post.

anywhere so your rust that would have ocured unfired and new is really special right? it only effects the bore, the muzzle device, tha gas port/block and the face of the gas piston?

Interestingly enough, when firing corrosive ammo, I've never had the bolt face rust on me. Yet the bolt face is rusted in your picture. Also, the stainless gas piston hadn't rusted on me either - even after a few days in corrosive salts.

The really odd thing is that the corrosion is blue. That indicates that he used a copper solvent on the gun. Probably lubed it with Hoppes #9 which is a weak copper solvent. It'll turn copper and brass a nice green/blue color, like what you see on your piston there.

And interestingly enougher, it might also strip chrome plating from the bore! Did you know that some chrome plating is actually attached to a thin layer of nickel which is deposited over copper, which is attached to the barrel? Dissolving out that copper will make the chrome flake off. And that's what looks like happened to that barrel, in addition to the rust.

do ya wanna think on that a minute or two and Edit your comment above to look less foolish?

dstorm1911
September 27, 2007, 12:37 PM
Gewehr98, look at the new bore beside the Rommy bore, notice the light, now look at the rommy bore notice the rust all the way back to the gas port And the total absence of light......

the chamber end was fine it was the area front the gas port to the muzzle that was ate to crap.......

But hey don't clean your AK enjoy life......... it won't be my problem partner it will be yours.......

The repair on this rifle is going to cost the owner $237.75 if ya don't mind trashin your guns its no problem for me at all..........

dstorm1911
September 27, 2007, 12:54 PM
Naked prophet, I can't get that quot thing to work but

"In case you weren't aware, moisture or humitidy isn't required for corrosion or rust. It helps, but is not necessary. How about you wash out some Wolf cases thoroughly, make sure all "corrosive" residue is gone, then dry them out thoroughly. Set them, in the same conditions, outside and see if there's a difference in the rust."


In that same bucket are other identical WOLF cases from another AMMO lot which have no trace of the same corrosion except where they contacted a corroded case all fired at the same time and all picked up at the same time.....some are primed corrosivly and some are not it all depends on if they got a good deal on the primers then they get used..... ya can have 3 loaded rounds outa 20 in a box turn out to be corrosive primed there is no fixed way of knowing as all the primers get mixed dureing manufacture. I've been an importer and appraiser for 14 years with onea the largest milsurp importers in the country....... I know EXACTLY what your Wolf ammo "might" get primed with........ have ya ever even been to Russia? ANYWHERE in Europe dealing with ammunition vendors or arms dealers?? oh well I have..... ya wanna believe your Wolf is totally safe all the time thats up to you and its your gun...... don't bother to clean it thats YOUR CHOICE

Never seen a rusted corroded bolt face? Ya must not do to awful much shooting or haven't had much experience with a variety of milsurp weapons, its pretty common, magazine wells and feed ramps also ya see when that fired case gets slammed into the ejector that residue gets scattered all inside the front portion of your reciever, to a much lesser degree than the bore but ya will always especially with a semi auto or full auto have corrosion present there as well thats why your told to clean out the reciever, the mag well and the Bolt face...... if a primer gets pierced it will be MUCH more pronounced as then a nice healthy blast of salts gets to the bolt face and front of reciever etc...

As for him cleaning before shooting etc.... no he did not, he stopped in at the Shop, he is a friend of the owner of the shop, he bought the rifle which was randomly taken off the rack, he asked about AMMO and where to get some, I gave him 5 Hungarian 20 rnd magazines from my case of em that are already loaded by myself just for function testing AKs with, Don let him have the Ammo and mags at a "huge" discount hell less than he sells the mags for but... Anyhow the guy lives out in Three points he stops on his way down his own road to his house to test fire his new toy...... a deputy hears the last few shots and goes to investigate....... gun goes to jail customer gets cited

the gun was dry just like all of the others still sitting on the same rack, the ammo is the same stuff we bought a pallet of last year for the machine gun shoot at Knob creek......

EDIT, BTW that is an original gas piston, the originals have an iron core which is exposed at the center the chrome plating only covers the head for about 1/8" the circumerance and then the step itself this is why ya are sposed to clean it all, these rifles are all setup with Ironwood designs stocks and pistol grips so the gas piston didn't get changed for stainless USA ones as they aren't needed for compliance with 922R as far as the corrosion colring thats the same as we get from most out here in Arizonas climate, in Misouri at Knob creek we get more of a white orangish corrosion depends on what country the ammo is from and what chemicals are used in the total package of powder and primer as well as the bullet jacket and case material composites etc... a hollow point bullet with a copper jacket covering the base will leave more of a greenish corrosion as the copper in the bullet jacket is heated and mixes with the primer salts etc... an exposed lead base will result in yet a different appearance to the corrosion then end result however is always the same failure to stop it will result in pitting

RockyMtnTactical
September 27, 2007, 03:08 PM
chrome won't eliminate corrosion, only hinder it.

Nothing has been busted here.

the naked prophet
September 27, 2007, 03:37 PM
Well, I have only fired 1400 rounds of M67, and to you that may not be a lot. I've only fired Wolf, silver bear, etc. since then (except for Win super-X for hunting). I guess I'll just take your word on it. I don't dispute that the chromed bore doesn't provide rust-proof protection - the rest is just details.

silverlance
September 27, 2007, 03:43 PM
LOL everybody is essetially saying the same thing: clean your guns. now there's a camp that's shot wolf for years and doggedly defends its virtue. another one claims that man never set foot on the moon, it was done in a studio in hollywood. no, that rust is the wrong color.. that must be photoshopped!

anyway - where is your shop located dstorm? I'm planning a trip to AZ soon, prescott to visit J&G, and hopefully a bunch of other gun shops... id like to visit yours too.

Gewehr98
September 27, 2007, 04:21 PM
But hey don't clean your AK enjoy life......... it won't be my problem partner it will be yours.......


1. I'm not your partner - never was, never will be.

2. I never said one shouldn't clean their AK, and I defy you to find where I said so.

3. All of my AK rifles are fed my Dillon 550 handloads, period. It's a fair bet they're non-corrosive, and have been for the 10K rounds I've made and fired so far. If my Kalashnikovs rust, it's not because I fed corrosive ammo through them.

4. You're awfully intolerant of alternate suggestions as to why that chrome lining bubbled up off of the barrel steel near the muzzle. Matter of fact, you're downright snippy to fellow forum members asking very valid questions. Is that necessary here on THR?

5. I worked in a forensics lab analyzing metals in my last career, and I'm now doing something similar with a variety of metals now in my post-retirement career. I've seen bad chrome plating and good chrome plating. Can you accept the simple fact that such things happen? I'd wager the chrome plating in the bore of my Bulgarian SLR-95 is probably applied to a lot higher standard of quality than my Romanian SAR-1. The chrome plating in the chamber and bore of my pre-'94 Colt Competition HBAR is probably better than the SLR-95's. And so it goes. Unless, of course, you like to stir the pot with such "Mythbusting" threads. In that case, carry on.

dstorm1911
September 27, 2007, 07:01 PM
Silverlance, same place ya bought your T53 from but Don isn't open to the public as he has no storefront just a warehouse so not allowed to deal with customers only at gunshows or mail order etc... because of the SOT-2 and dept of homeland security he can only allow "employees into the warehouse as everyone has to be background checked etc... without a retail storefront.... he used to let folks come by and wander around then some guns dissapeared that was the end of that...... it really sucks I can't even let folks drop off stuff directly anymore as I feel rude havin em stand out front etc...

Some folks he's known for years he lets come in but not even my friends are allowed in if he doesn't know em..... havin to explain to the BATF bout stolen guns is no fun they get real p#ssy on the subject....

Gew, not a matter of not entertaining other options...... as long as they fit the reality, ya don't get to rewrite the facts to fit your theory after all this isn't American history so we can't re-arrange the facts to create what we would like them to be....

FACTS are;

Gun was brand new totally spotless

Gun had zero lube on it or in it etc.. other than a very small amount of grease on FCG parts and lower rails

Gun was released with 5 Hungarian 20 rnd mags loaded with Wolf blk box hollow point ammo, customer had no clue where to even pickup additional ammo etc, at the time

Gun was fired on the side of a private road in Three Points AZ about 2 hours after it was picked up, customer fired all but 7 rnds of the supplied ammo

Pima county deputy confiscates the gun and cites customer, the gun and empty mags with 7 loose rnds is placed in brown paper store bag in Deputies Ford Crown vic police cruiser.... when deputy gets into the substation located on Benson HWY in Tucson, AZ the gun was transfered to a plastic evidence bag along with 5 empty magazines and an envelope containing 7 loose rnds of ammo

Customer expends large amount of $$ over 4 months fighting legal battle and finally wins... recovers his gun which when he first looks in the bag appears normal.... takes it home and opens heat sealed bag and removes gun to find bluish green corrosion in the bore etc... he tries to clean it himself with brass brush and WD-40 but cannot even get brush past gas port so brings it into town for me to deal with.......

It is discovered that the chrome lining is literally blistered and lifted on a bed of corrosion from the gas port to the muzzle, the muzzle device is locked up tight, I remove the retaining pin to get it outa my way while I try to twist off the brake with a pipe wrench and remove the barrel pin and press out the junk barrel while trying to twist off the brake the entire barrel is twisting so I heat the muzzle device to red hot and then it twists off with some effort....... the rest is in the pics


thats it, now if ya got any other possibilities that fit those facts I'd be glad to hear em...... if ya wanna rearange those facts to fit your idea sorry.... I'm not the American public school system I know we really did have slaves, I know my ancestors (Lakhota Indian) really were pretty much wiped out by genocide and I know pirates really did carry off young maidens and rape them.........

Ash
September 27, 2007, 07:23 PM
Er, eh, as far as I know, they still teach that whole Slavery thing these days...Ditto for the American Indian plight...

dstorm1911
September 27, 2007, 07:50 PM
ASH, it was a context thing regarding the rewriting of history, sure they still teach it, READ the new version versus the original versions..... its now been PCafied (yea new word) so our history doesn't look quite so bad.... I hadn't realized just how much until I helped clean out an old library and.... well History was always onea my favorite subjects so I kept all the old history books that weren't full of mold etc... later started leafin through em and everything looked normal Until my niece started disputing something I told her so... I got down onea the cleaned up old books...... and guess what we were BOTH right...... at least depending on who's book ya were reading.... give it a try if ya got any Junior high school kids around borrow onea their history books for a day of reading ya'll be surprised at whats been left out or down right altered.... guess all us old farts was sposed to already be dead by now so we couldn't dispute em ;)

Ash
September 27, 2007, 08:00 PM
Try reading about those of us with Confederate back grounds. We are treated largely like Nazi's these days and the assumption is that all of us owned slaves. While you're at it, check out what historians write these days about Mississippi. You would think we had lynchings and hangings on the weekend just for fun, and that the KKK is our number one church (while ignoring the fact that the KKK is more active in New England). Robert E. Lee was evil and his name must be spoken only with spittle on the ground.

Ash

dstorm1911
September 27, 2007, 08:07 PM
Yea I know I lov the ones bout how sweet and gentile the North was etc... I have relatives from Missouri into South Dakota...... mostly cause the Lakhota used to range the entire plains........



OH and CLEAN YER D@MN GUN!!

to keep it on topic an all ;)

JNewell
September 27, 2007, 09:04 PM
A chrome lined barrel means absolutally nothing in a semi auto rifle

I've read all three pages here and I don't think that the evidence supports this statement at all. What I think this does prove is that quality materials and qualilty workmanship matter.

MIL-DOT
September 27, 2007, 09:27 PM
yeah,but what bout a WHOLE rifle in hard chrome !!!!!! gotta be a rust-magnet....OR... create a 50 foot rust-free zone, depending on where you stand on this issue LOL. when i saw this ,i just HAD to post !!! i was hoping the pics would come through,check clasicarms if you wanna see 'em.

HARD CHROME AK-47 RIFLE.
-
WE HAVE BEEN GETTING REQUEST FOR A LONG TIME NOW TO OFFER A CHROME AK RIFLE. TRUTH IS, WE HAVE HAD THE ABILITY BUT THE RECTIFIER WE HAVE USED IN THE PAST IN OUR CHROMING PROCESS WAS UNDERSIZED FOR THIS PROJECT AND WE HAD TO DISASSEMBLE EACH AK RIFLE PIN BY PIN AND DO EACH LITTLE SMALL PART SEPERATELY TO GET IT RIGHT. THIS JUST MADE THE PROCESS TOO LABOR INTENSIVE AND THEREBY TOO EXPENSIVE TO BE FEASABLE. THAT IS UNTIL NOW.YOU SEE, ABOUT 8 WEEKS AGO OUR RECTIFIER BURNED UP. AFTER WE POUTED AND WRUNG OUR HANDS FOR AWHILE, WE WENT OUT AND FOUND ONE THAT WAS MUCH BIGGER AND BETTER TO REPLACE IT WITH. THE FIRST TRIAL RUN WE USED IT ON WE THREW A COUPLE OF ROM-AK MV RIFLES IN THE BATCH AND THEY TURNED OUT GREAT. MY HOPE IS TO GET A NEW CAMERA OVER THE WEEKEND AND POST A BETTER GRAPHIC BUT AS YOU CAN SEE ABOVE THESE ARE JUST GORGEOUS. AND AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THE PHOTO ON THE RIGHT,THE PROCESS WE USE ACTUALLY BRINGS OUT THE DETAIL IN THE WEAPON. THESE ARE THE MILITARY VARIATION RIFLES WITH THE 45 DEGREE COMPENSATOR AND THE BAYONET LUG. EACH RIFLE COMES COMPLETE WITH 1- CHROME MAG, 1 BLUE MAG, SLING, BAYONET W/ SHEATH, POUCH CLEANING KIT AND MANUAL. VERY LIMITED QUANTITIES..... ROM-AK-MV CH...........$449.95.
NOTE: ALTHOUGH WE HAVE DRAMATICALLY SIMPLIFIED OUR PROCESS, THE CHROMING OF A SEMI-AUTO RIFLE IS STILL QUITE TEDIOUS AND LABOR INTENSIVE.WE WILL ONLY BE DOING THESE IN VERY SMALL BATCHES AND THE LOW NUMBERS PRODUCED WILL MAKE THOSE WHO OWN ONE OF THESE A VERY EXCLUSIVE GROUP.

JWarren
September 28, 2007, 12:30 AM
I would also say this might have a bit to do with the problem as well. The wolf garbage is great for making noise and getting your barrel hot, but don't even believe their labeling when it says non-corrosive- always assume wolf is corrosive.


I can't believe that no one has mentioned this, BUT


In terms of ammunition being corrosive or non-corrosive, it depends on the primer.



From AK-47.net:

(http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/corrosive1.html)


The term “corrosive ammunition” refers to the fact that the priming compound in the cartridge....


What makes corrosive priming so damaging to the bore is the powdered residue it leaves behind after firing. They call these residues “salts”. It is an accurate name because these salts attract moisture from the air and immediately begin to attack the steel in your gun barrel.


Regarding Wolf Ammunition, I have a hard time believing that someone could get a "bad batch" that would be corrosive verses other batches. I'd wager that the same primers are used throughout the batches. If some is corrosive, I'd think that ALL would be corrosive.

That said, I can understand that some have mentioned bad experiences with Wolf that leads them to believe that Wolf Ammuntion is Corrosive. I dunno... I'm not convinced.

My Vector AK underfolder has gone months without a cleaning AFTER being fired. And All I have fired in it is Wolf. I've had the rifle for 5 years (Oh crap! my warrenty just expired! grrrr....) I hate to admit it, but I've probably cleaned it less than 20 times and I can't remember EVER cleaning it the same day I shot it. Yeah, I know.. I am lazy.

The bore of mine looks pristine. You would think it's never been fired. For what it's worth, it does have a chrome-lined barrel.


This causes me to be skeptical of any claims that Wolf Ammuntion is corrosive.




Now granted, I am talking about corrosive ammunition, not the issue of chrome-lined bores verses non-chrome-lined bores as it pertains to corrosion. Really that is a seperate issue from ammunition altogether. And you guys seem to be doing a great job hashing it out. I'll leave you to it.

I just wanted to mention the corrosive ammunition primer thingy.


-- John

dstorm1911
September 28, 2007, 02:34 AM
John, start buying by the pallet....... ya'll get a much better cross section, we still have cases turn up with corrosive residue and been burnin the same pallet for the past year....... we clean up the cases with a magnet then just dump em in buckets a week or so passes and the buckets get dumped into a 55 gallon drum to go to the scrap yard...... all the chicom stuff I bring in myself is always corroded and occasionally ya'll hit 10 or so corroded Wolf cases as ya are pourin em from bucket to barrel .............. your own choice I don't have an issue as I clean everything for corrosive regardless........ BTW I don't bother to track which cases the mags get loaded from, there are several different lot numbers all in that one pallet though not just one or two or even three different numbers maybe 10 different ammo lots that made it up originally...... the corrosive stuff could be from any of those 10 or so lot numbers we just don't worry bout it as the guns get cleaned a few minutes after they are done being fired......


BTW ya do know Wolf is just a clearing house right? they have ammo loaded all over Europe the lowest bidder gets the contract, to be the lowest bidder they use whatever components they can get the best deal on, reclaimed bullets when available, surplus powder and yes very often surplus primers corrosive primers sell for considerably less than non- corrosive so if a deal is available thats what that contractor will use............ ya can do a search for WOLF and learn bout the clearing house details......

JWarren
September 28, 2007, 08:33 AM
Crap. I can't talk right now. I have to go clean my gun.


Thanks for the explaination DStorm. Makes sense and I haven't thought about that. Sounds like I've been lucky.



-- John

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