[brentn]

Anyone do it?

Do you find its as good as the commercial stuff?
I wouldn't mind making some as I can't find any for sale in the city so far..

[foob]

Do a search, there's been discussion.

From what I remember, it's not worth the risk. Can you get it online in canada? It's not that expensive in bulk in the USA.

[Misfire99]

You can make it. There is a company that sells ball mills with lead balls just for making BP. And you can get all the componets on line. But you can also buy BP on line. try graf and sons. Use this link:
http://www.grafs.com/powders/3522

[Redd Flynt]

I have made BP but unless you shoot an enormous quantity it's a costly proposition in terms of equipment.

Making the charcoal is THE most important part. Proper charcoal can't be bought, it must be made. A ball mill can be constructed, commercial ones are not up to the task. After milling, the mix must be pressed to a density of 1.7 then dried. Then the cake is crushed and screened to the proper size.

I can make it for less than $2.00 per pound but I would have to make a bunch of it, far more than I can shoot in a year or more.

Regards, Redd

[rcmodel]

Sounds like a very good way to blow yourself up!

I remember making a very small quantity once when I was a teenager, just to see if I could.

It went off with a boom and a cloud of white smoke, so I guess it worked.

But I sure wouldn't want to mess with it in large enough quantities to shoot or reload with it.

Even the big powder manufactures Blow Themselves Off The Map every so often!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[silverlance]

goex apparently has blown themselves up a few times.

the other company, supposedly around since the 1500, has never had such an accident.

i forget which company that is.

that said, anyone know where I can buy BP in southern california? I really want to shoot bp and not that "safe" bp substitute.

[Pulp]

http://www.unitednuclear.com/bp.htm

These folks sell the ball mill, the balls, and the ingredients. Never tried it, but always kinda wanted to. I'm not sure you'd save any money at their prices for ingredients.

[BigBlock]

Sounds like a very good way to blow yourself up!

It's not really very dangerous as long as you use some common sense. Most of the process is done wet, meaning it can't explode even if you tried to light it. Also, powder doesn't "explode" unless it's in a confined area, more likely if it caught fire there would be a big flash and you might lose your eye brows, and that's about it. The reason the BP factories blow up is because they are dealing with hundreds of pounds of powder...

[silverlance]

Anyone in Los Angeles area interested in getting in on a black powder group buy? Buying a small amount for one's self is very expensive due to hazmat - but buying a barrel full is a recipie for blowing your house up.

If we group together this could work out well. Anyone interested? You must of course be in the Los Angeles area, able to drive to 91411 Van Nuys. I can also meet at Burro or Angeles to distribute powder, but wont do this for each person.

it can get as cheap as 12 bucks a pound for GRAFS or SWISS powder. compare that to unobtainable in gun shops and $20 a pound regular price with $25 hazmat added on.

come on, all you guys who complain about high ammo prices - here's a way to shoot for cheap. and lots of fun, too. guns dont even require an FFL!

I even know a guy who's selling a lot of very nice bp handguns... I could hook you up...
Id do this on my own, but I don't want to store 250 lbs of black powder at home...

[rcmodel]

more likely if it caught fire there would be a big flash and you might lose your eye brows, and that's about it.
Lots of folks have been very badly burned or lost fingers or eyes over the years, when no more then a powder-horn exploded in their hand, or a 1 pound can went off.

A "big flash" is hardly a strong enough description for any black powder explosion in quantities you would be handling & drying during the home manufacturing process.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[redneckrepairs]

Not only NO but hell no to the OP . It would cost too much to do it safely for yourself , and the insurance would cost too much to produce for others . BP imho is something that can be made with a morter and pedistal , that does not make it smart to do it . In all dealings with bp remember that it is basically " spontaneous " burn , not as progressive as smokless powder . I would only make bp to show i could , not as a viable choice on purchase ( or considering my product as good for a firearm )even if i had a 100+ mile drive to get commercial bp.

Home built explosives of any sort are basically teasing darwin to see what will happen .

[Jim K]

I have done it, just "to show I could." I never thought it very dangerous, but it really isn't worth the trouble.

Worse, in today's political climate, such an unauthorized experiment would probably result in a prison term, as some young experimenters have found out. Even though they did no damage to anything or anyone, the papers called them "terrorists" and "insane" and demanded huge fines and prison sentences.

High schools and colleges have even been warned to carefully monitor chemistry classes and impose rigid controls on chemicals that could be used to make explosives, as well as report any "remarks" about blowing something up. Good old DHS, at it again.

Jim

[silverlance]

DHS?
deparment of homeland security?

when i was a kid i was very much into the idea of making explosives. it sounded like fun, and easy too when you read things like the jolly roger book, etc, improvised munitions.

but then i got into real shooting and that desire to play tag with darwin thankfully dissapeared. still, there is a guy who makes little bp mortars - theres a youtube of him somewhere - and each time i see that i get a little twinge. sure would be fun to fire off your very own mortar!

[Novus Collectus]

I can make it for less than $2.00 per pound but I would have to make a bunch of it, far more than I can shoot in a year or more.
Get a cannon. :D

[BigBlock]

Lots of folks have been very badly burned or lost fingers or eyes over the years, when no more then a powder-horn exploded in their hand, or a 1 pound can went off.

A "big flash" is hardly a strong enough description for any black powder explosion in quantities you would be handling & drying during the home manufacturing process.


Again, those are closed containers. You do not make BP inside a closed container. Pour a pound of BP on the ground and light it, it will go up in a puff. There will be no "boom". It will NOT have the power to remove any part of your body. Yes, maybe you could get burned, but not very badly, and you will recover. And again I point out, BP is mostly made WET and as such it is not flammable!

[JCT]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread...But it seems those who don't understand, condemn.
Hooby Pyro's make BP daily. It can be 100% safe, that's up to the individual. It's a very stable mix, not notably friction, impact or static sensitive. It's igintion point is higher than that of paper.
I make all my own BP and charcoal from Willow. It's milled in a one gallon mill, half filled with lead media ( non sparking ) and turned on and off remotely in a safe area ( that's to avoid any risk of electrical shorts...).
While my powder out of the mill is very fast hot and powerful, it's no explosive. BP isn't an explosive. It's a fast burning deflagrant that creates enough hot gas to burst containers, crack rocks..and so on.
The mass required for self confinement of BP is somwhere around 500 lbs. So any modest sized pile of BP will burn ratehr than "Explode".
I'd avoid United Nuclear, make your own mill, cast the media, make charcoal, buy Sulfur and KNO3 in bulk.
My BP is about $3 a pound for me. It's hotter and faster than GOEX, I haven't tried swiss, but I'd imagine mines similar. I have much less fouling with mine.
I don't press to 1.7, I just wet with H20 and Alcohol and screen it out. It has a higher volume since the density is less, but 30 grains of my powder is more powerful than 30 grains of Goex anyway, so I can fit enough into my guns to get powerfu, clean loads.
If you're going to order any online, check Maine Powder house. Their prices include shipping and aren't bad at all! a 10 pound lot of swiss comes out to about $15 a pound.
Anyway...Making BP isn't nearly as dangerous as some would like to think. It's legal as long as aren't reselling or improperly storing it. As with any BP, household limit is 50 lbs.

[Docinfrance]

I wouldn't fancy making BP in an apartment but I do have a remote wine cellar on our property with 6ft thick stone walls that would suffice quite nicely so I might give is a shot (sic).
I'm a pretty fair chemist and engineer.

I do have a question though.
BP uses sulphur (sulfur for the Atlanticaly challenged) only to get it burning at lower temperatures (around 300`c) and it is this that produces all the smoke and soot.
Leaving out the sulphur pushes burn up to 440`c which burns a lot cleaner anyway and sulphur is filthy stuff.
I've read there is just a light haze with sulphur free powders much akin to white powder.
An 18% carbon to Saltpeter mix is a strong as it gets even without sulphur.

I'm thinking a higher temp wouldn't bother my SS cylinders and barrel and caps should ignite it OK (maybe graduated charges).
Also I'm thinking it would be less corrosive and cleaner then BP with sulphur, so less complaints on the range, less sooting up (more shots), and easier cleaning.

Has anyone any experience using sulphur free BP in cap and ball?

ps as for making surplus, well there are always a few tree stumps need 'pulling up' on a property this size.

[Cosmoline]

With good tools, proper BP storage and a tool shed or trailer to work with it and store it some distance from your main house I see no problem. But it's not something you can do half way, unlike smokeless reloading.

[JCT]

I think the charcoal is equally important. The higher quality BP producers ( Swiss, Schuetzen ... ) use Alder and or Willow, the two ideal woods for BP charcoal. I've read in a few places that GOEX uses Maple, not a great choice.
Making your own, you can not only use Willow or Alder, but can use charcoal free of silicates that are in the bark. Most likely, the companies above use all of the wood.
My homemade BP is so much cleaner than GOEX, it's hotter, faster and leaves little residue. Lately, I'm loading it in 45 colt and shoot 50-100 rounds with no action trouble or excessive fouling.
You could try leaving sulfur out, but I believe it not only raises the ignition temp, but it acts as a catalyst to have a controlled burn rate.
Some people mill their powder slightly wet to deal with any static risk, but most don't think it's neccesary.When I mill powder for use in BP rockets, I mill it with 5% extra mineral oil. It keeps dust down and help make a solid fuel grain when loaded in the rocket tubes.

[Owens]

Don't know if you looked at this but here is a good thread with a link on home made BP:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=296023

[JCT]

Interesting thread link, again no surprise that 90% of the posters are against or afraid of making BP.
If you can handle a recipe and specific methodical steps while practicing safety, making BP is no more dangerous than shooting or handling powders while reloading.
As for the guy who asks " Is your time valuable?": I can mill 2+ lbs at once, and I don't have to sit around and watch it tumble, it takes about 3 hours and then you have super high quality BP mill dust. Wetting and screening ( ricing ) takes only minutes and then it dries in open air, while I can go about doing other things. I haven't, but could make about 10 lbs within a days time.
It is cost effective, I've used many pounds already, the ball mill I made also tumbles my brass!! Charcoal is absolutley free, KNO3 and Sulfur are very cheap if bought in bulk. BP is costing me somewhere around $3 a pound. For me it's questionable whether buying BP would be easier. This week I discovered that the one place in my state that still carried BP doesn't anymore! Then my one other option, next state over, 2 hr ride, doesn't have it either! So I can only buy BP online and I'm not about to use GOEX anymore, it's inferior to my homemade. I'd use Swiss, which would be about $18 a pound mail ordered.
So, it's easy to mill a batch and be set for awhile. I can make any granulation I want, primingpowder, cannon and everything between. I got into BP rockets and aerial shells as well from this and have developed formulas and charcoals for fuels in 4oz and 1lb rockets and Stinger rockets.
I can even make my own blackmatch fuse, commonly used in pyro, but useful for BP cannons.
It's really a different experience when you fire a shot of homemade powder, which projects a ball you cast, lubed by a felt wad you made... If only I made my own primers and guns!!!:)

[dstorm1911]

JCT, what did you make your tumbler drum from? I've been making my own BP on and off since I was a kid growin up on the Pine Ridge Rez in SD we were pretty much at the poverty level but....... I loved playing with an old unknown origin muzzle loader I found in an old barn and hadda make a new stock for etc.. as it was left there long ago and the wood had been food for termites , I learned how to make my powder from an old man , used to use a morter and pestle as no "ball mill" available and used to find and knap my own flints for it, used to beg sulfur from a rancher who used it for killing mites etc.. with his livestock saltpeter was everywhere used for fertilizer back then ......

these days I use a twin tumbler I built originally for cleaning large amounts of brass for reloading it has two 2 gallon drums made from sections of 1/2" wall x 12" diam plastic water pipe I epoxied a plug into one end and then use the rubber expansion seals for the open ends with brass bolts in the center ya tighten the bolt which expands the plugs, for milling BP I dump all the cast ML balls that failed quality sorting into the drums probably 10lbs per drum, its belt driven powered by a 5 HP compressor motor that uses a belt to spin a shaft that has 4 rubber wheels mounted on it (2 per drum) with an idler shaft with 4 more wheels the drums sit between the two shafts.......... the idea came from my lil 2 quart case/rock tumbler with its two 1 quart rubber drums....... I'd love to find some heavy rubber drums the same size as my plastic ones the rubber would be much quieter and last longer etc....

[JCT]

For my new mill that I built a year or two ago, I bought a mill jar from ebay seller hobfir, You can easliy make the same thing, price is way up from what I remember paying. it's just common drainage pipe, a cap, a reducer and a rubber lid. It works great, I mill BP and tumble brass in the same jar.
I'd like to get a second but can't justify that cost when one is good enough. Around here I can only get the proper pipe in that diameter at 10 or 12 foot lengths, that's why I had to buy one.
Some people use large olive jars. The type of containers pool chems come in look like they'd work.

[Norseman_01]

I made a batch a while ago and did it according to some instructions.

Well, just so you know, I still have all fingers and toes.

No ka-boom.

As far as how it burned, I used hickory chips I made into charcoal. (the hickory is for putting on the gas grill to get flavor into meat)

Also, the time you spend tumbling and mixing is pretty important.

More powerful than GOEX, but, not to the point of 777. And pretty clean, too!!! (the hotter the burn, the less fouling with the sulphur you will see)

My percussion guns I used it in were all fine. Seeing it go off in my Walker was a hoot!!!

But yeah, it was more of a white smoke like GOEX Express the regular stuff.

[Wildfire]

I have read the historical accounts of Black Powder makers that no longer are. Many were blown commpletely out of business litterally.
At $15.00 to $20.00 a pound for Tried and tested Black Powder, I guess I have a very hard time Imagining anyone willing to risk all to save that little bit of money.:banghead:

[JCT]

Well, it's no more a risk than handling powder when loading or reloading. It's much, much cheaper and I've yet to see a commercial powder as good as my homemade. ( I haven't tried Swiss, but It may be close ).
I make the charcoal for it as well, out of Willow, the ideal wood for high quality, hot, fast and clean BP.
30 Grains of mine is approximately the same power of 40 grains Goex, minus most of the fouling and soot.
As I posted on another thread, one great thing about Homemade is it's less dense ( Commercial powders are pressed to 1.7g/c3 ). 30 grains of mine fills a .45lc case and seating the bullet gives just enough powder compression.
Another reason is that no place in my state sells it anymore!!! I used to buy it at the town hardware store, then I had to go to the local gunshop, then further to a different reloading shop, then, past 3 years, about an hour drive, now, noone carries it!!! I then would go to Maine, but it seems the place I was buying it from there doesn't carry it either!!
It's becoming a mail order only item and with diminishing sales, I wonder how the big companies are going to stick around!
I can mill screen and dry about 5+ lbs within the day if needed. It's easy, safe and about $3-$4 a pound!

[zxcvbob]

I have an old Lortone rock tumber, and I have a couple of pounds (each) of KNO3 and agricultural sulphur, and a big bag of lump charcoal. I need to make a half a pound of BP again just to try it. (Last time I tried making BP was as a kid, and I measured by volume instead of weight and mixed it with a mortar and pestle. And I used charcoal briquets. Didn't work very well)

Is there any reason unlubed .45 cast bullets wouldn't work for ball mill media? I have some .457 lead balls, but they are soft pure lead (and I don't want to waste them.) I can cast some 250 grain bullets out of hard lead. I can't think of any reason that wouldn't work; I just might have to let the mill run a little longer...

[JCT]

I use .457 balls as mill media too. I cast them from some hardened buckshot I had.
Your tumbler will work ok for light use, just do no more than 200 grams total. That'll be 150 grams KNO3 30 grams Charcoal, 20 Grams Sulfur.
Mill for at least 3 hours. What wood is your charcoal from? Charcoal is the most important variant. Willow and Alder make the best charcoal. Pine is decent too. You wouldn't believe the difference, low grade charcoal and your BP isn't as good as commercial. Good charcoal and it's better than commercial BP.
It's worth getting or making a batch of Willow or Alder if you can. very easy to do.
Wet the BP with water/alcohol, screen it and dry it.

[zxcvbob]

The charcoal I have is oak, I think. I may have a little bit of willow out on the woodpile; I know I have some soft maple that is light weight almost like willow.

I'm not going to use my .457 balls. I don't have a mold to cast any more, and I don't have much pure lead anyway. I thought I would cast some .45 RNFP bullets out of wheel weights and heat treat them to make them more durable.

This is getting off-topic, but have you ever tried milling aluminum to make flash powder or zinc to make model rocket engines? (requires steel balls rather than lead. No, I haven't done it, just read about it)

[JCT]

No, I've never milled metals, they can be pyrophoric and ignite when you open the mill!
I do make different mixes of blackpowder with coarse charcoals added, for 1lb, 4oz and Stinger rockets. For model rocket, end burner engines, use the hottest BP you can make with 5% mineral oil as a binder. You could add a percentage of Whistle mix to make them more powerful too.
I wouldn't mill metals though, you can buy dark aluminum and zinc easy enough. I have a few pounds of German Eckhart Dark Aluminum, that should last me a long time.
The Maple charcoal is ok, that's what GOEX uses. Willow is exponentially better though, try a batch of each to see!

[armedandsafe]

I'd love to find some heavy rubber drums the same size as my plastic ones the rubber would be much quieter and last longer etc....

Go down to the local tire repair place and see if you can get an old truck inner tube the right size to line your drums. A little epoxy around the inside of the drum, slip the liner in place and fill it with baloons to hold it against the walls of the drum.

Pops

[jimrbto]

jct
I retired years ago after serving 21 years as an army bomb disposal tech. and can assure all here that anything that goes "boom" makes me happy. I do, however, have a very large respect for those things and treat all of them with real respect. Having said that- -I have no fear of explosives or BP and want to learn the best, safest way to make BP. Most of the methods I have read about don't suit me for one reason or another, I dont want to break up a dried "cake" and then pass it through a screen. I am concerned about using a ball mill to mill all three ingredients together and wonder if the supposed explosions as a result of this are due to a chemical/shock reaction or are these dust explosions. I am sure that milling damp or moist ingredients will reduce that possibility to zero. I wonder about milling a damp mix and will it really mill or just roll around in my mill as soon as a lump may form? Will a lump form?
I guess what I am looking for is a step by step guide to a good procedure.
Sorry if this is a PITA.
Jim

[JCT]

Ball milling BP is common practice, it's how all pyro hobbyists and blackpowder rocket hobbyists make BP. As long as you use non sparking media ( lead balls ), you're fine. I wait for humid days to take away the static risk, which is minimal anyway.
Setup your mill remotely, unplug it from an extension cord, that way you're not near it when it's unplugged, incase of motor failure.
BP isn't impact sensitive, rockets are commonly loaded by hammering the BP in with aluminum or stainless rods, around a metal spindle.
Anyway, get a good scale, accurate to .1g or better, weigh out the desired batch and load the mill jar. The Mill jar should be about half filled with lead balls. In my one gallon jar, that's about 30 pounds of lead!
You can wet the BP during milling if you like, but it's not needed and only makes it messier.
Mill for at least 3 hours. I've let it go for 8 or so, but with an efficient ball mill, it's clumpy by 3 hours and needs no more milling.
Pour mill jar contents through a coure sifter to allow BP to go through. I do this outside and pour onto a newspaper so I can then pour the BP into a container ( lock and lock kitchen containers ).
To granulate, wet down with a mix of H2O and about 10% alcohol. Just until it's clay like consistency. Take the ball of "clay" and rub through a window screen or whatever you have for the grain size you need. Let dry well and store in a good container, that's it.

[Redd Flynt]

Without going into boring detail, I make my BP like JCT. Ball milling is about as safe as it gets.

As for charcoal I use salix lasiolepis which is the arroyo willow.

As of late I use my 12 ton hydraulic press to make a 4" diameter, 1/2 lb "puck" of powder. My math says the dry density is 1.72-1.74.

So far I have not come up with a really good way to break the cake.

The only thing that will set off BP is heat. Open flame, hot spark etc. Consider that BP was loaded into cannon balls then fired through the hulls of ships and only exploded when the fuze burned down. I'd say BP is pretty darn insensitive to shock. Large commercial powder mills used stone wheels on a stone floor and often the wheels had steel tires. Some explosions did happen. Dust explosions also happen in the screen house.



Regards, Redd

[JCT]

That must be great powder. I have no way to press mine. I do think the low density of mine allows for a quick burn though. It packs more than enough punch for anything I use it in. 40 grains volume of mine is probably about 32 grains in weight.

[jimrbto]

JCT
I don't know where I will find suitable wood for charcoal here in the desert but will sure keep my eyes open. The only wood around here is Mesquite or someones pet weeping willow. There is Alder at Big Sur but that is about 4 hours from here. I will make a new barrel to tumble the ingredients in but will make it smaller than yours, I think you are making bigger batches than I will need. I can let my tumbler run for as long as needed to grind the charcoal to be finer than dust. I grind rocks for months so a couple days to do the charcoal would be no big thing. I have a lot of lead to make grinding media in the form of balls, I think .50 should work.
Thanks for all the input
Jim

[JCT]

Pine works well enough, if I had no Willow, Alder or Grapevine, I'd go for pine. Some old lumber would work well.
If you had to, you could buy willow charcoal, a few places sell it. I've heard that Balsa charcoal is even better than Willow, but so light and low density, it's hard to mill.

[skunkum]

JCT:

You have mentioned several times that the powder you make requires a smaller powder charge than powders you have purchased. How does one determine this? I'm sure that trial and error and experience play their parts, but are there measurable tests? I'm certain that I can make BP safely but I don't know how to figure out how much to use.

[JCT]

Well, nothing scientific yet, but with my Dragoon, the loading lever only drops with about 40 grains of GOEX. It won't drop with anything less.
It'll drop with about 30 grains of homemade. 30 grains of homemade takes up the same space as 40 grains of GOEX since it's less dense, so I get a fuller cylinder, better accuracy and less fouling.
Mine just burns hotter and faster, it's clear to see in a test by just lighting a small pile on the ground. Goex, you can kind of watch burn up. It's fast, but not "instant". Mine is gone in a flash and pushes some air in the process, more of a "whoosh" than GOEX.
Also, there's noticeably more recoil in my 45lc, with 30 grains homemade, more then when I had loaded 35 grains GOEX.
Even others noticed the difference right away without me telling them! It's clearly louder, hotter has more recoil and is much cleaner then the GOEX we all used to use GOEX.
I do want to try Swiss though, it's most likely as good or better then mine since they're using Alder. That's the key, using good charcoal. Until I get a press, I can't make high density BP, so I'm limited to fitting about 35 grains in my Dragoon and 30 in 45 colt.
A friend of mine with a Walker, Henry 1860 and a Vaquero was against using BP until trying mine. He gave GOEX a try way back, but he said it was too messy. I now reload for him, my blackpowder only.

[Vermonter]

I've seen some mention of using sugar instead of or in addition to sulphur. Anybody have some more info or experience?

[Loyalist Dave]

Not the present issue, but the previous issue of Backwoodsman has the writer's Grandmother's recipe and technique for a sugar based powder. It's NOT black powder, though, and she used it in small amounts in a small caliber gun for rabbits and squirrel. I have seen a similar recipe for a sugar based "blasting powder" in the book Henley's 20th Century Fomula's and Trade Secrets. So I don't know what the pressures would be in a large caliber gun, eh?

LD

[mykeal]

Yes, there certainly are tests. Any good quality chronograph will provide emperical data that can provide one-for-one comparisons between GOEX, Swiss, Pyrodex and a myriad of other powders.

There are a large number of variables to control, so it's best if the data were taken by doing tests with the same gun, loading techniques, bullets, lube and wads all on one day, or at least in the same meteorological conditions. Comparisons with published data would provide ball park differences, however.

[zxcvbob]

Some folks use saltpeter, sugar, and red iron oxide (catalyst) for a model rocket propellant. It's probably fast enough to use as a gunpowder, but I don't know; depends on how it burns when confined.

It has the potential to be *very* messy if it coats the inside of your barrel with burnt caramel.

[hartek451]

Used to be able to get powder testers. They are basically a sawed off pistol with a spring loaded cover over the barrel. On firing, the resulting movement of the cover was an indication of the 'strength' of the powder.
I know Dixie used to carry them.

[hartek451]

Used to be able to get powder testers. They are basically a sawed off pistol with a spring loaded cover over the barrel. On firing, the resulting movement of the cover was an indication of the 'strength' of the powder.
I know Dixie used to carry them.

[JCT]

Thundermugs or golf ball mortars are a good test too. I'd love to have some Goex, Kik, Swiss and homemade at the same time for comparison.

[dwave]

Thundermugs

That is what we call toilets.

[Redd Flynt]

I built two devices for testing my powder. One is a device similar to a bomb calorimeter, it measures pressure in a sealed container. Ignition is electric and a sample (1 gram) is ignited. A pressure gauge then gives a reading.

The other device is a small ballistic pendulum/mortar. A one gram charge is loaded in the mortar tube and fired. The tube is mounted on a free swinging arm and moves a dial.

Both devices only show a comparison between batches of powder. Since I can't duplicate the exact grain size of commercial powder it is pointless to compare. I did try one test with GOEX 3f and my powder is in the ball park.

[Sgt.Dusk]

Sounds kinda dangerous producing BP.....but how cool it would be to
be capable of doing it.
But how hard it is to make smokeless powder???? does anyone know?

[JCT]

What charcoal are you using for your BP? I just ran out of my last supply of homemade, so I milled a pound today. After 3 hours of milling it was densely caked in the mill jar. Probably the best BP I've made yet, but I'm not sure why since I always use the same chems and charcoal. My mill is very efficient with about 25 pounds of lead ball for media.
I lit a small chunk of the caked BP out of the mill. It just rips, unbelievably fast BP, no residue and a very hot burn. I've never heard any other BP make such a jetting sound burnt in open air. Goex doesn't compare to what I make. This week I actually backed off on my .45lc loads. I was going with 30 grains homemade BP, but that's some heavy recoil in my revolver, worse in shorter barrel revolvers too. I'm down to 25 grains, still packs a punch!
If you aren't already using Willow charcoal, give it a try. It's night and day when compared to pine, maple or other hardwoods. I remember reading that in the 19th century Willow and Alder were the preferred choice for BP. Most companies today are using any old hardwood ( maple, beech, oak...) and it's sub standard BP.
For those buying BP, try to find Swiss or Goex Express ( uses better charcoal! ).

[Redd Flynt]

I'm using Willow charcoal. It's the Arroyo Willow that grows in my area.

Got a batch of BP turning on the ball mill right now.

Sounds like your powder is good also.

Now that the cold weather is here I'll probably turn out a pound or so every day. I did all my Willow cutting and charcoal cooking while the weather was nice and have about 200 gallons (whatever that weighs) of charcoal.

I'll probably ball mill for the next several weeks and then start pressing and drying.

I just put a timer on my ball mill so I can start it up and not have to watch the clock.

Redd

[scrat]

Ok where do you get willow charcoal. Oh and everyone keeps asking for recipes on how to make bp.

here is a link i found
http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/homemade_bp.html

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/homemade_bp.html

[JCT]

You make the Willow charcoal, it's very easy.
Black Powder is 75% KNO3 15% Charcoal and 10% Sulfur
Milled for 3 hrs, it's performance is better than store bought BP.

[jimrbto]

JCT
Have you ever tried using the CIA method for making BP or do you use only the ball mill method?
Jim

[Deamon]

I gotta ask, what's the CIA's method of making BP?

[Redd Flynt]

The CIA precipitation method is messy and a great deal of extra work. The easy way is to just put all the ingridients in a ball mill and let the mill do the work.

After milling I add seven percent water with a bit of isopropyl as a wetting agent and then press it. Once dry I crush it and screen it.

JCT gets a good powder his way. Many folks don't press it. Either way works well. The secret, if there is one, is repeatable results.

[JCT]

I would think the CIA method makes an inferior powder. I haven't tried it myself, but know many who have and went right back to ball milling. Actually, every one I know who tried CIA, never stuck with it.
If you're mill is set up well and the media cascades properly, you get some real high grade black powder, probably pushing the limits of how powerful BP can even be.
For my shooting powder, it gets wet down anyway, with water and alcohol. This does make the powder even faster probably due to some recrystallization of the KNO3 into the porous charcoal.
I'll probably not get into pressing BP for higher density. I don't have a need for it really. A full case of my powder is plenty of power anyway.
I built my mill with advice from people at a pyrotechnics newsgroup. Lloyd Sponenburgh helped alot when I needed to get the RPM ratios right with the motor, pulleys and jar size. He the author of a book called "Ball Milling Theory and Practice for the Amateur Pyrotechnician" .

[scrat]

ok well question where do you get the wood to make the charcoal. i have no idea where to get willow wood.

[zxcvbob]

You cut it from a willow tree and peel off the bark. Seriously.

Just use pine or spruce (2x4 lumber, cut into little chunks) the first time. The process will be the same.

[JCT]

Willow around me is not native, it's at golf courses, peoples front yards and generally where I can't get any.
I found a few locations that I could get some. One near a train depot out in a field and one at an old rotten house. I grab dead limbs whenever I see them.
I have run out before, so then I'll use grapevine or swamp alder that I have around here.
If needed you could buy good charcoal here:
http://www.micropyrotechnics.com/willowcharcoal.htm

[Macmac]

JTC I sent a pm your way. I have never seen this done and have no idea, but since all this info is here, not that I understand much of it and some pics and perhaps basics on How To, would be great..

But in making bp.. I am a total newbie.. I don't believe I would want to make a lot, and no more than 2 or maybe 3 pounds at time.

I do have a small brass gun to feed.. It weighs 42 pounds and is used at forts local to NH, Maine and NY in summer time to re-enact for public..

And a few rock locks I have to pass time and hunt with. Pic work in my head better than text.... Hands on if that can be had works the best... The problem is time money and distance when on line is the way to discovery.....

Being in sort of central New Hampster dosn't mean you are close to much LOL

[JCT]

Thanks Macmac. I'm planning on getting together pictures and clear directions to post here or where I can. I might just make a small webpage for it and post the link here.
I've never made more than a 500 gram batch at a time, although in my mill you could do 2 pounds at once easily.
Yes, avoid sparking media. I cast my media from shot and buckshot, so it's a hard lead alloy. The mill jar I use is PVC, came from ebay seller hobfir. Look him up and check out the ready to go ball mills he sells. very well made!!
Once your mill is set up, with proper lead media ( about 30 pounds ), you simply just weigh your chems and mill for 3 hrs. 75% Potassium Nitrate 15% Willow or comparable charcoal 10% Sulfur.
After milling, dump contents into sieve to remove the lead media. I do this over a newspaper outside, so the dust doesn't make a mess.
You now have what's called "Mill dust" some call it meal powder, but usually meal is the finer granulation after pressing.
Now, just wet down with water and alcohol until it's consistency is like clay. Screen to desired granulation and dry at room temp for 12-18 hrs.
Anyway, I will try to get pics and more specifics, which is easier for anyone to go by when starting out.

[simpleguy]

I just want to say thanks for the thread......just like firearms, ignorance breeds fear......thank you for taking the fear our of blackpowder.

[Redd Flynt]

JCT

Some pics of your setup would be great. I'll try and get some pics up of my kiln and mill.

[Macmac]

JCT, 500 grams is 17.85 ounces if I did my math right.. That's way cool.

I didn't know shot was hard lead.. I have the idea that is soft lead, as I cast from old flashing, and lead pipe to shoot round ball in flinter's, BUT I melt down car wheel weights to shoot hand loads in my winchester thuddy thuddy... And I beileve that is harder lead as antimony.

Or am I way out to sea with no paddle?

I have no idea what any of this looks like, but if I get my way I would like the most "primitive" looking rig I can get, and have it be no to low dollars.

One reason I never got into this was I had the idea I needed to make hundreds of pounds at a time, and I just don't like the idea. Besides I have no place to store any amount like that.

At this place there is a open Adderondak like horse shelter, but the horse are gone.. I have a cooler out there and inside is a couple cans of GOEX, What ever else I have is in horns in my room, like next to me and my Alladin Lamps.

I am pretty happy with GOEX, but it sounds like I can be happier with my own powda.. Oh Dear God can this be true"? Really?

I guess so, so I excited..

ps: didja get the pm? Will you think about it?

pps: I will be away from the computer for the next 5 to 8 days. Just saying so since I will appear gone...

[Olsen Firearms LLC]

Let me know if I can help! I am a FFL (Including class III NFA Weapons) and can get great deals on many products. Feel free to contact me by email or phone if you have any questions or need pricing.

OLSEN FIREARMS LLC
Scottsdale, Arizona
Kyle Olsen, FFL, Owner
olsenfirearmsllc@yahoo.com
602-882-0359 Office
602-953-8142 Fax

[Macmac]

OLSEN, Do you deal in black powder everything? I am new here and haven't really spent time looking to see if there is a vendors area..

[dbrock76]

I'm the new guy around here - less than an hour.
Anyway, the link below is to a lunatic Swiss chemist who's only interested in three things: Sewage Treatment, old watches and black powder.
He's got a nice concise rundown on the nuts and bolts of it.
I bought 5 pounds of potassium nitrate to try it out but haven't had time yet.
http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/homemade_bp.html
Can't speak to his views on sewage... sorry.

[Norseman_01]

How would Hickory be for BP???

[jimrbto]

JCT
Can't wait to read your tutorial. I have done a lot of research on line but can't buy any more books now. Got a bunch of willow from a friend I went to visit up near Los Gatos and will start making charcoal soon. Will get the rest of the formula together in the next couple weeks and begin.
Really interested in your use of water/alcohol in the ball mill.
Jim

[JCT]

I don't wet mill. Most people don't. I mill the powder dry and then wet down later. It'd just be messy to wet mill unless it's very slight moisture. I'd think it would mill best dry anyway. No need to add water.
I have milled powder with mineral oil, but that's a special mix for a type of sky rocket I make around the 4th.
The page on making BP posted here looks good! I'll try to make mine really clear and specific enough to make it easy to follow.

[zxcvbob]

I cast a bunch of .457 balls this weekend out of wheel weights and quenched them to harded the lead. (I wonder how they'd shoot in my ROA?) I went to Home Depot today to buy a white cedar 1x6" fence picket for making charcoal but they were out. I may just use some of the oak lump charcoal I have out in the garage for the first 1/2 pound batch.

[Macmac]

I had been away, but am back and still 'very' interested in making 'BP'.

Now I see zxcv (clever) Bob hardening lead, antinimony (sp?) really, by quenching in water. Does that work?

I work in tool steels making blanket pins and knives, and sao I know quenching tool steels works to harden, BUT, I also work in copper, brass and silver and use quenching to soften these non-ferrous metals.

I have no idea if you can quench harden any forms of lead.

[zxcvbob]

Yes, you can harden antimonous lead by quenching it. It works even better if it contains about 0.5% arsenic.

Soft lead (pure or alloyed with just tin) does not harden.

Let's see if I can find that cast bullet association article about it... I'll add the link later if I find it.

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

[Macmac]

Well I am all about learning things I didn't know....

If there is a link to pics and 'How To' for making BP I have not found it yet.

I would be a bare bones beginner, with no tools and or ideas on how to make smaller amounts.

Under tooling, about all I have is a heck of a lot of either 0.600", or 0.735" round ball I cast up a while back for my Nor' West Gun and my Bess..

No other tools at all unless a brass tumbler works, but this is a open top rig, and it vibrates corn/walnut media, and might not be acceptable, like I can see it might cause a BOOM *** effect, but maybe not??

I have access to wood, but I wonder if twiggs from a willow would be just as well??

Being I live in New Hampster, I woulld not know where to get sulfer, and or niter unless I pee in a pot...

Some ideas on as free as possible tooling for this would be well appreciated. My well is a bit dry as is everyone's at this time of year and I just got done cleaning up 18" of the heaviest wet snow I have seen is a long time. It is fair to say I have a love/hate relationship with my plow truck. It does the work, but it hogs fuel bad in the doing...

I like make do tools anyway....

err well I lied... I have a full complement of auto tooling, wood working in 18th, 19th, and 20 century, I work in leather, silver and etc etc, but I don't know enough about making BP to say what I can use or not...

I have this tendancy to not want to resemble willey coyotte in the cartoons see?

[4v50 Gary]

THRer makes his own right here. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=325453)

[Macmac]

Thanks Gary. I am also following that thread. The thing is I would like to know more about the tooling and where to get sulfer and niter.

I am far from certain on any farm store brand names for these items. No where in New Hampshire is any sulfer, not even sulfer water, of which I would be aware.

As to niter, I am not sure about how to get enough, even if I pee in a 5 gallon jug and boil it off like I do with making maple sugar. I can only wonder what I might get if I boiled off 40 gallons of pee, besides a wicked stink...

I think I can make a mill from either paint rollers or boat trailer rollers to hold a covered pail, like a joint compoumd bucket, but maybe smaller, and have a powered roller set up between the outter rollers to spin the bucket.

Then I wonder if internal fins like a cement mixer would be a good idea or not..

If Willow is good which is more or less local, so then Bass Wood/Linden might be good, and pine(s) and spruce are very common here, as is beech, birch(s), maple, ash, and oak.

I am guessing to char these a 1 gallon paint can filled with which ever wood, is all one needs to make charcoal, as is done with making char cloth.

Seeing what other set up would be handy if I can't find someone with in a local driving distance to go see in person. I prefer to see in person so I can also get a little hands on feel for things..

On the other hand I am new here, and so understand it takes time to get any invites.

As to invites, for years I participated at a biker site (mcusa) and became a mod. In 05 into 06 my wife and I toured the USA by motorbike, and we were able to take up many invites as we went.

Also I am a "skinner" and have been since the early 80's, where any skinner knows how that is.

There is a fine line in unwritten rules which can be hard to deal with. Move to fast and the poster can be deemed wacho.. Move to slow and the same thing happens.. Say one wrong thing and you can be seen as a know it all, who knows nothing.

I am hoping a few pics will be posted, and how sulfer and niter can be had...

As to sulfer a rock collector once gave me a hand full, but I have no idea where he got them, and I was out of state at the time.

My 'why' is having the abilty to make BP is one of the last goals I have to be independant of store bought items, and early woodland living skills.

Since the early 80's I have spent a great deal of time learning in reverse. Modern guns to capper's, then to flinter's. Same thing with fires, which was matches and lighters tio flint and steels, and then bow drill to hand drill.

Again with making knives first from kits to forging my own blades.

Well see huh?