What is the best combat handgun in use today?


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Richard
September 28, 2007, 02:30 AM
A poster on another board wrote:

"It's a Glock 22... the finest combat handgun currently on the face of the earth.... I wouldn't expect anything less..."

What is the best combat handgun in use today? By this, I mean what is the most accurate, reliable, and economical handgun to arm a large body of people with?

My answer is a Glock 17 and my reasons are it is totally reliable, the ammo is in use all around the world, and Glock gives large discounts on volume sales. Lastly, I throw out the 40 S&W because the ammo is expensive and snappy to fire.

My favorite handgun is a 1911 in 45acp; why didn't I respond with a 1911 pistol? I have never had a malfi with a G17 and the G17's manual of arms is simpler.

Regards,

Richard:D

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10-Ring
September 28, 2007, 02:49 AM
Some of my favorite guns are steel guns -- 1911s, P7M8 and steel wheelguns but for daily carry, I've learned that lighter is better -- less is more! My favorite poly gun is the HK USP/ USPc and P2000/ P2000sk but since you say economical, I would go w/ Glocks in 9mm or 45 acp :D

Glockafella
September 28, 2007, 02:49 AM
I think the majority of police officers use or are issued Glocks...mostly model 22s and 17s. This does not make it a "combat pistol" but should be a noteworthy addition to the debate.

The law enforcement community has and is continuing to lean toward .45s for obvious reasons.

The future of "combat weapons" is in limbo as far as I am conserned...With many new "combat ready" models being preduced out of new and old companies. Durablity and dependablity of Glocks is not longer a far fetched thing for most major gunmaking companies to achieve. HK, SIG, and others have followed suit. The newer XDs, M&Ps, and the likes have stepped it up in innovation. All very exciting to see.


My vote is : SIG P series. 226 being my first choice

HotFuzz
September 28, 2007, 02:50 AM
The 1911 is the best.

Glockafella
September 28, 2007, 03:03 AM
There it is...lol Just any 1911 will do huh? Your first post and you've put it out there Bigger then life.

Beretta 92?
HK USP?
Browning HP?
Glock?

HotFuzz
September 28, 2007, 03:07 AM
Not any 1911. But a good custom 1911 is simply the best. That is why they are chosen by the best of the best like LAPD SWAT, FBI HRT, Marines Force Recon, Delta and so on and so forth. They also dominate every pistol competition from Bullseye to USPSA.

But hey I like Glocks too and a lot of other guns. The indian is more important than the bow or the arrow.

Glockafella
September 28, 2007, 03:14 AM
When I think of "combat" I dont think of me toting a large, heavy 1911 around with 7 or 8 rounds of 45. Oh wait, and a "custom" 1911 at that.

I think of a light high capacity double stack that I can drag through the dirt, mud, ice, and fire and can still trust to function properly and accurately.

1911s HAVE proven themselves on many levels in war, but I would not go so far as saying its the hands down best "combat handgun" we have or would want to use. I have owned and loved a Kimber with custom work dont to it. The same Kimber 1911 that LAPD SWAT claims to carry. It was a great gun, just not the best when I think of being in combat. Just my humble opinion.

Snapping Twig
September 28, 2007, 03:27 AM
Two major wars, several police actions, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and Front Site and the answer is...

The 1911.

I realize that perhaps it's a hot button topic and all pistol varieties will have their adherents - revolver, semi auto, hi-cap, big bore, small bore.

I trained with the 1911 and in my mind, it's #1 for the job. Drag it through the mud and hit the enemy.

The Germans were incredulous when they'd hit our boys with 9mm and we'd take the hits, turn around and drop them with a .45.

Placement is key of course and a well placed .25 will do the work, but for me, it's the .45acp in a 1911.

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 28, 2007, 03:35 AM
The USP

finalcut
September 28, 2007, 07:06 AM
Questions like this cause so many funny replies....
The best hangun you ask.... There are many that tie for first place because there are many differemt kinds of shooters. I can perform very well with my HK USPc .40, but not as well with my Colt 1911. I shoot my XDs well, but they are not as coveted as a custom 1911.
In combat - I'd rather have my USPc - because it's the gun that works best for me.

You need to find the gun that you shoot the best. Just make sure you pick a model that is known to be reliable if you can.

Here's where I'll get flamed:
I think that the following guns are more reliable on average than many 1911s
HK
Sig
XD
Glock

If I was going to buy a new 1911 it would be Colt, Springfield, or S&W - and certainly NOT a custom 1911, unless I wanted a BBQ gun to impress my friends with.

Chrome
September 28, 2007, 07:32 AM
Don't know about the best, but I'm rather fond of my Walther P-99.

Later,
Chrome...

crankshop1000
September 28, 2007, 09:04 AM
1911A1 in the hands of an expert.Nothing is quicker into action than the 1911.The .45 also packs legendary power.

40SW
September 28, 2007, 09:33 AM
I don't know how you define "best"
but if its all around reliability, GENERAL accuracy , ammo availability, and cost, then a Glock 17 or 19 is the obvious choice.
If I am a cop, I would carry a Glock 22 , for obvious reasons.
If I am at a bullseye match , then I would want a nice 1911 for accuracy.
Application is key.
The right tool for the right job. A Glock for a cop, a 1911 for competition., a 12 ga for home defense.

tinygnat219
September 28, 2007, 09:34 AM
That's an easy one,

Whatever's in your holster or on your person when you need a handgun.

Rinspeed
September 28, 2007, 10:00 AM
Whatever's in your holster or on your person when you need a handgun.



You hear that a lot, no offense but I always thought it was a goofy answer.

Onmilo
September 28, 2007, 10:02 AM
I think that if you take a look around the world you will find five basic designs that serve a great portion of the worlds handgun needs and they are:

1. The FN/Browning High Power, still in use just about everywhere there are roads.

2. The Walther P38/P1/P4/P5-Beretta 92/Taurus M92/Vektor Z-88/Giat Pamas G1. Beretta 92s and Walthers crop up in most places the Browning isn't in widespread use.
They all share basic design parameters that make them more similar than you might think.

3.Glock handguns: All calibers, but the nine still reigns supreme in overall numbers.

4. CZ-75/85 and all the clones.
Even the new Russian handgun the 'Grach' and the Romanian service handgun are based on this design.
This handgun is fast catching on as a viable replacement for the Browning High Powers. They are capable of lasting just as long with minimal maintenance.

5. The 1911/1911A1.
Not near as common as they were twenty five years ago, there are still oodles of them from several manufacturers floating around all over the world, from the Americas to coastal Asia and Africa.
The only place these don't seem popular is Europe.
Even the Com-Bloc countries like them and they do show up there from time to time.

The H&K USP may well make this list but it hasn't got there yet, Keep trying Hockler!

I know guys are going to complain that I haven't mentioned the Tokarev or the Makarov or the PP/PPKs or the,,,,whatever.

Those five basic designs listed are the most prevelant COMBAT handguns.

Twenty years ago I could have mentioned but one major combat handgun and it would, of course, be the FN High Power, but the times, they are a changing.

Landlocked Pirate
September 28, 2007, 10:09 AM
My answer is a Glock 17 and my reasons are it is totally reliable, the ammo is in use all around the world, and Glock gives large discounts on volume sales.
I have never had a malfi with a G17 and the G17's manual of arms is simpler.


Glock 17 for these very same reasons (in my opinion).

RandyB
September 28, 2007, 10:22 AM
Wow this is a loaded question! The "Best" for me: my 1911 (Kimber). I shoot it better than anything else. If I was arming an army? I would look at a Glock, Sig, Springfield, S&W polymer type weapon in .45 ACP or 9mm. Simpler arm and more adaptable to smaller hands. I would look at the 9mm due to more shots in the gun and simply put, a handgun is a piss poor replacement for a rifle in combat. I'd get the best deal and the money saved would be spent on the best longgun for my troops.

RustyHammer
September 28, 2007, 10:57 AM
Colt 1911

The_Shootist
September 28, 2007, 11:16 AM
Glock 19 - all round reliability/concealability/accuracy in a calibre easily obtainable/widely distributed.

Don't get me wrong - I like my 1911 pattern handguns. But in terms of going "BANG" everytime, my G19 tops them.

The proof is in the real world. When I had to evac from Galveston during Rita a couple of years ago, guess what two handguns I carried? My SP 101 and my Glock 19. When the chips were down and if I had to use them in a social situation, I knew I could rely on them.

Deer Hunter
September 28, 2007, 11:20 AM
When I think "combat", I don't think "pistol."

When I think "Last ditch effort to save my ass", then I'm thinking "pistol."

High Planes Drifter
September 28, 2007, 11:25 AM
Davis .25

High Planes Drifter
September 28, 2007, 11:27 AM
Alright Im kidding. Really, Im not sure which gun could be considered the very best. There are many fine choices. I like the 1911, but not many countries use it anymore, so , while it may be the best of all time, I dont know if it would qualify as TODAY's best.

saltpepperPA
September 28, 2007, 11:29 AM
When I think combat, I would have to say Glock, but I am still partial to my 1911's same as everyone else.

+1 on G17

usp9
September 28, 2007, 11:30 AM
The Beretta M9 has an incredibly good record of reliability.

ClarkEMyers
September 28, 2007, 11:48 AM
SIG - but I carry a 1911 - there's a difference between general issue and personal choice

StrikeEagle
September 28, 2007, 12:38 PM
I'm a private citizen and can carry anything I'm willing to buy. I carry a Colt 1911 (Combat Commander).

If I knew of anything better, I'd carry that instead.

tinygnat219
September 28, 2007, 12:46 PM
Rinspeed,

No offense taken, I just see it as whatever you have on your person. This assumes that you know how to shoot it, it's a reliable weapon and you have taken the time and effort to know its quirks. Let's be honest here, there are as many "best combat pistols" out there as opinions, and while one might truly be "the best", chances are it's not on your person when you need it.

The one at hand is the best thing you can have.

CountGlockula
September 28, 2007, 01:19 PM
Isn't there some sort of gun sales stat sheet that tells us which firearms have been sold in the US?

Hoppy590
September 28, 2007, 01:47 PM
1911 is the finest COMBAT handgun in the world. IMO

glocks/xd's/M&P's/ any other plastic fantastic pistol are good SERVICE guns. but only a single action pistol makes a good COMBAT handgun. the 1911's down side of course being capacity has been "solved" in various hi cap models

high plains drifter! SHH dont expose Davis. seal team six and the reanimated corpse of chesty puller are both armed with Davis .25's and .380s running ops in saudi arabia RIGHT NOW!

Never No More
September 28, 2007, 02:59 PM
The 9mm peashooter is NOT a man stopper, like the 45 ACP.

Ill take any service grade 1911a1 and hit 7 out of 7 at 100 yards all day long.

GTSteve03
September 28, 2007, 03:09 PM
SIG 226

Hey, if the Navy SEALs chose it, that's good enough for me.

CWL
September 28, 2007, 03:24 PM
Who has actually used enough variety of pistols in combat to be able to comment? I don't believe anyone who posted here has. At most, someone has used one kind of pistol.

I prefer M1911 in .45ACP because that's what I'm best trained with. Second choice would be the G17. I have been in "combat" once and all I had was a S&W stainless in 9mm and it didn't matter -everyone else had full autos and artillery.
The idea of "Combat" handguns is stupid.

Rexster
September 28, 2007, 03:54 PM
I have come to appreciate smaller service handguns, because they take less room on the duty belt, and clash less with the buttstock of the long gun, because the pistol's grip frame extends less distance from the body. To my mind, "combat" implies something accomplished primarily with shoulder weapons, not pistols. If I had to fight using only my pistol(s) I would choose something large, with a proven, reliable 1911 being a valid candidate. If in an environment where a shoulder weapon is available, something like my present police duty pistol, a SIG P229, seems just right, for me. Having carried a variety of duty pistols over the years, including service-sized revolvers, SIG P220, Glock G22, S&W 3913, and several 1911s, I really appreciate my P229, as it is big enough to shoot fast and well, yet clashes less with my 870P and carbines, and leaves fewer divots in door frames and other things things a guy tends to bump into in the darkness. (The 3913 was small, so it did not bump into things, but it was narrow, and harder to grasp well in a hurry.) All of that being said, my favorite combat pistol is a Ruger GP100 .357 mag. :eek: :D :)

WeThePeople
September 28, 2007, 05:01 PM
'Combat' doesn't mean full-auto and artillery. Ever hear of hand-to-hand combat?

Tully M. Pick
September 28, 2007, 05:09 PM
The 9mm peashooter is NOT a man stopper, like the 45 ACP.

Ill take any service grade 1911a1 and hit 7 out of 7 at 100 yards all day long.

To be fair, I'd rather have a rifle in combat. Any pistol is a peashooter compared to a good rifle.

I don't believe there's a "best" of anything. Firearms are tools. You wouldn't use a sledge hammer to pound in a finishing nail, just like you don't want use the wrong tool for the job in other areas.

possum
September 28, 2007, 05:32 PM
Delta and so on and so forth
where did you get that info? is this something you know, or something you heard i know the tale a little different, they have 1911's and they have glocks they choose glocks for desert enviornments. thier 1911s are to very tight tolerances and there are sometimes issues in extreme enviornments for most of those situations the glock is called upon and has never failed.

i prefer 1911's but i think the glock 19/17 are among the best and most widely used in the world.

glockman19
September 28, 2007, 05:39 PM
what is the most accurate, reliable, and economical handgun to arm a large body of people with?

a Glock 17 OR 19

I prefer the 19

col_tapiocca
September 28, 2007, 05:54 PM
I'd say the HK USP US socom Mark 23
+ .45 acp power
+ reliable
+ HK quality
- HK price :eek:

Singel stack 1911 are really nice pistol but If I've to choose one pistol for combat I'll prefer HK first, Second will be a Glock

SuperNaut
September 28, 2007, 06:45 PM
Combat seems to be the operative word here.

I'm a big 1911 fan but in combat (that I'll probably never see) I'd rather have a Kel-Tec PLR-16 .223 Long Range Pistol.

http://www.rrarms.com/catmedwid/GPLR16.jpg

The "in use today" part just screws everything up...

Vern Humphrey
September 28, 2007, 07:15 PM
We're asking four different questions:

1. What do you want to carry? For me, it would be a .25 automatic, or something like that.

2. What's the best buy for the department? For many, it's the Glock.

3. Which gun is safest in the hands of Ol' Flubdup? For many, it's the Glock.

4. Which gun do you want in your hand when the shooting starts? If I can't have a rifle or shotgun, I want an M1911.

littlegator
September 28, 2007, 07:24 PM
The idea of "Combat" handguns is stupid.

It reminds me of Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan where he uses his 1911 to shoot the tank at the end.

Erik
September 28, 2007, 08:16 PM
"What is the best combat handgun in use today? By this, I mean what is the most accurate, reliable, and economical handgun to arm a large body of people with?"

The Glock 17 or perhaps the S&W M&P given your criteria.

Rexster
September 28, 2007, 08:20 PM
Yes, I have heard of hand-to-hand combat; that is what happens when your guns are broken or empty. ;)

CWL
September 28, 2007, 08:34 PM
'Combat' doesn't mean full-auto and artillery. Ever hear of hand-to-hand combat?

I was on the receiving end of an artillery exchange between 82mm mortars and 155mm howitzers. Everybody else had automatic rifles.

You stick around for HTH.

Vern Humphrey
September 28, 2007, 08:52 PM
Yes, I have heard of hand-to-hand combat; that is what happens when your guns are broken or empty.

I'm reminded of an old Arkansas boy taking bayonet training in AIT. The instructor gave the usual spiel, "And if you can't get your bayonet out of his body, blow off a shot -- the recoil will pull it out."

"Sahgent? If'n I still got ammo, there ain't-a gonna be no bayonet fightin.."

Zak Smith
September 28, 2007, 09:29 PM
Simplicity, ubiquity, reliability-- Glock 17/19.

applekev
September 28, 2007, 09:55 PM
Glock 17, reliable, light weight, reliable, high cap mags up to 33 rounds, reliable, proven 20 year track record, reliable, 9mm +p+ ammo. Oh, did I mention reliable!!!:)

Wil Terry
September 28, 2007, 10:11 PM
I have friends who together have put bullets in well over one hundred people. They have used just about every common pistol and caliber.
TO A MAN THEY ALL PREFER A REVOLVER WHEN THE SHIQ HITS THE FAN !!!
None of them have any strong preferences as to caliber either; " they all work about the same."

Neo-Luddite
September 28, 2007, 10:47 PM
Nothing wrong with a S&W Mod. 10 (or similar). A revolver is a one-hander. Much can be made of that fact.

My pick is, of course, the 1911a1--but I'd take a robust wheel gun, too.

Ala Dan
September 28, 2007, 10:58 PM
My choice for the "best worldwide combat pistol" would be, in order:

1) SIG P226/P228 in 9m/m
2) BHP 9m/m
3) Glock 17
4) H&K USP-F 9m/m

All because the 9m/m is a NATO round, available virtually worldwide.


Otherwise, here in North America the 1911 .45 ACP wins hands down;
and has served proudly for nearly 100 years~! ;):cool::D

Alternate: SIG-SAUER/SIGARMS .45 ACP P220A (My Personal "BACON SAVER")

Monkeybear
September 28, 2007, 11:13 PM
CZ75B


The CZ website says its good.

Hauptmann
September 29, 2007, 12:44 AM
Combat? If you mean military sidearm then I would vote Sig P226 in 9mm. It would of been the general issue pistol of the US military if Beretta hadn't bid a lower procurement price. Very reliable and robust design, excellent ergonomics, easy to disassemble and clean, and a great performer overall.

In the military a pistol is a backup weapon or is used by second line troops who's primary role is not front line combat. Thus, it is a defensive weapon and needs to be light and easy to operate and handle. The 9mm is a very flexible cartridge which combines the traits of high magazine capacity, light weight ammo, good penetration ability, managable recoil, and decent killing ability. It can also be configed to fire high velocity armor piercing rounds for use against armored personel. The 9mm will be the top military pistol cartridge until the next generation in weapon systems is invented. If the pistol becomes a general issue weapon for infantry, it will need to be even lighter. When you have to haul around 75lb of gear in addition to your weaponry, every ounce of weight makes a HUGE difference.

Now, if your pistol is intended to be used for more than just a last resort as it is in the military......you have several options. In this case, it might be a good idea to look at US law enforcement trends. Not that LE procurement of equipment is based on any degree of intelligence and logic, but after several decades of looking at trends and looking at agency adoption from coast to coast you can get a general idea of what is effective. You will see a HUGE variety of firearms and calibers throughout the law enforcement community. Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, H&Ks,.....just to name a few, and the most common calibers are 9mm, .357sig, .40S&W, and .45acp. All of these models of pistols and calibers are quite ideal for "combat" use. Pick a pistol that is highly reliable first, then pick one that you like the feel of and if you like the controls, then find out which pistol you shoot the best overall, then lastly pick the caliber.

Currently, I choose the Sig P220 in .45acp as my "ideal" combat pistol. Highly reliable design, great ergonomics, great accuracy,......just a very well thought out pistol. Single stacked magazines are also more inherently reliable and have a longer service life. The only downside is that you have to change magazines more often. However, if you stay proficient you can do this fluidly and in some cases it keeps you from burning up your ammo too quickly. On duty I keep two mags front and left, and two front and right on my duty belt. I can draw them easily left or right handed and I have a total of 41rds. It's unlikely that I will ever need that many rounds, but it focuses more on the ability for me to easily reach a fresh magazine left or right handed......especially if I only have one working arm.

BAT1
September 29, 2007, 01:08 AM
1911! I vote for the SA SS Loaded Champ, or full size. You can draw with it and spell the alphabet, baby. It can.

BlindJustice
September 29, 2007, 01:57 AM
A lot of answers that don't answer the question of

What's the Best COmbat handgun IN USE today....

How many armed fordces use GLocks and actually
use them in COMBAT?

The USA only changed over to the 9MM because we were
throwing a bone to NATO to standardize with their caliber of
choice, and with the declining markmeship of the recruits we have just like the AR-15 solution Yeah give em more rounds for the same weight....

Blah Blah Blah ....

Zak Smith
September 29, 2007, 02:08 AM
Per http://www.sigir.mil/reports/pdf/audits/06-033.pdf about 138,000 Glock 19's in Iraq.

GTSteve03
September 29, 2007, 09:00 AM
Per http://www.sigir.mil/reports/pdf/audits/06-033.pdf about 138,000 Glock 19's in Iraq.
Which many were unfortunately then lost and ended up in the hands of various militia groups. :mad:

Juna
September 29, 2007, 10:03 AM
H&K Mark 23 SOCOM
H&K USP
CZ P-01 or CZ 75

Mortech
September 29, 2007, 02:43 PM
Correct answer : The one in your hand that works all the time when the SHTF !

Vern Humphrey
September 29, 2007, 03:01 PM
For a fighting handgun:

1. Reliability. It's got to go bang! every time you pull the trigger. Otherwise, it's just a funny-looking club.

2. Shootability -- accuracy in the hands of the user. Going bang! won't help if you can't put the bullet in the target.

3. Power -- given a hit, you need to have immedoiate effect on the target.

That seems to add up to the M1911 for me.

grimjaw
September 29, 2007, 03:11 PM
Well assuming "combat" means I'll be in a wartime situation and FMJ might be the order of the day, I'd want a larger caliber than 9x19 (even though that is my favorite). USP .45 would do, followed by a 1911.

However if hollowpoints are allowed, Browning HP followed by a Glock 17/18/19.

Another good question to answer is, if you're going to be arming your entire military with these handguns, which is the least expensive to acquire and maintain, but still fulfills the requirements and mission? That would ultimately decide it anyway.

jm

ranger58
September 29, 2007, 03:51 PM
H+k


R58

Erik
September 30, 2007, 10:11 PM
"What is the best combat handgun in use today?"

The warm, partially empty one in your hand immediately following using it to survive the moment.

Noxx
September 30, 2007, 10:25 PM
The 9mm peashooter is NOT a man stopper, like the 45 ACP.

There's a mountain of corpses that would say otherwise.

dodging230grainers
September 30, 2007, 10:41 PM
Semi-Auto: Beretta 92FS.
Revolver: 4" Smith and Wesson Model 10.

Both still fill plenty of holsters worldwide, though they weren't as popular as they used to be.

tacmedicp94
October 1, 2007, 01:18 AM
I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Ruger. Utterly reliable, rugged, and if for some reason you do have a FTF or run out of ammo, they're heavy enough you could swing it like a hammer:D

Zen21Tao
October 1, 2007, 05:53 AM
Whatever is available to you when you need it.

The Bushmaster
October 1, 2007, 12:44 PM
Semi-auto---Colt 1911. Revolver---S&W mod 19 .357 Combat Magnum 2 1/2" barrel

StrikeEagle
October 1, 2007, 01:39 PM
Semi-auto---Colt 1911. Revolver---S&W mod 19 .357 Combat Magnum 2 1/2" barrel


I'm sold on the 1911. The Smith 19 is right in the top tier of all-time handguns as well, of course... but I have to ask, why do you prefer it with a 2.5" barrel for a combat handgun? Wouldn't the 4" be more versatile in the role?

Hoppy590
October 1, 2007, 02:36 PM
There's a mountain of corpses that would say otherwise.
there mountain of corpses due to
Pointy sticks
unfenced swiming pools
industrial lathe accidents
unfortunate care bear related decapitations
squirells
Time.

dont confuse numbers of deaths by any method to a direct cause.
numbers cant say 9mm is it any better or worse to kill people with than .45 it just happens to be thats what was handy.

antis use the same logic " X number of murders were commited with guns, if we get rid of guns X number of people will still be alive!"

the death is the independant variable. the weapon is the dependant variable.

IndianaBoy
October 1, 2007, 04:56 PM
CZ 75.... maybe the P01

Sig 226

Glock 17


In no particular order.

The Bushmaster
October 1, 2007, 05:26 PM
StrikeEagle...The mod 19 2 1/2" is my winter CCW carry gun...I've had it a long time and am very profficient with it. Just can't seem to be able to hide it in the summer time on my skinny body...

JRC45AUTO
October 1, 2007, 06:27 PM
You guys are all off base.
M79 with pistol grip.

RustyShackelford
October 1, 2007, 06:56 PM
I for 1 like the HK pistols, P-30/P-2000 LEM models for most LE/protection/military duty. HK has developed these handguns to be long lasting and easy to use. The HK P-2000 LEM line is in use by many sworn LEOs in the USA and the new P-30 series will be a great add.

I also like the SIGarms P-220 .45acp. It has a great rep in the US military/LE market and a long history of service. The SIGarms P-226/P-229 are OK too but I'm not a big fan of the small hole in the side of the SIGarms slide. I can see a lot of gunk/dirt/etc screwing up the weapon in real combat, :uhoh:. But the SIGarms P-226 9mmNATO is used by US Navy SEALs and many other hard use spec ops units so ***....

Joe Demko
October 1, 2007, 07:13 PM
The Germans were incredulous when they'd hit our boys with 9mm and we'd take the hits, turn around and drop them with a .45.

I'd like even one citation from a German source on that.

51Cards
October 2, 2007, 01:35 AM
Hmm ... maybe a Sig .40 with a second 9mm barrel. Use up your stuff, use the other guy's. Like playing DOOM --- just pick up ammo and use it :D:D:D

Trebor
October 2, 2007, 03:10 AM
The *best* combat handgun is a rifle.

The second best combat handgun is whatever handgun you have in hand when you need a gun.

sm
October 2, 2007, 03:46 AM
Semi-Auto :
Bone Stock Gov't Model of 1911
BHP

Revolver :
3" RB K Frame

jungleroy
October 2, 2007, 03:48 AM
I would say that the best combat handgun is what ever you can reliably and confidently handle in all of the extreme possible weather conditions found on Earth.
I also would say that given all the choices that we have I would personally vote for a firearm that held more than 12 rounds in every magazine that I had to carry. I own just 2, 1911 style pistols and although I can cut the A zone from a piece of cardboard from a good distance away with them. I would still have to go with more rounds, that being anything from the Browning Hipower all the way over to Glocks.
This debate will likely go on forever. What really counts is what you can use to place all of your shots, where you want them, with ease.
What is the best one for me might not be the best one for you.
Just my two cents, and I don't mind if others have different opinions.

KaceCoyote
October 2, 2007, 04:02 AM
Cz-75b
Cz-75p01

everallm
October 2, 2007, 09:47 AM
Folks,

First this is NOT a 9mm v .45 flame war, although that is traditional whenever this type of question is raised.

The question is which is the best combat handgun out there. Not caliber, not US centric, not "it has to be a rifle/shotgun/grenade/" etc

So which pistol is currently most widely used, most reliable, in a "military" calibre and is or has been used in a combat style role?

I would vote for the CZ 75 range, particularily the P-01 which actually has an NSN serial number

ldp4570
October 2, 2007, 10:44 AM
Call me old fashioned!!
1911A1
Browning HP
They work!!!!!!!!

doc2rn
October 2, 2007, 09:13 PM
Glock 32 or my Colt 45 I love and carry both take your pic

ironvic
October 2, 2007, 10:50 PM
I like the 1911 and the .357 Magnum, but prefer the SIG P-226 in 9mm. Mine has NEVER had a malfunction. Ammo is cheap and, if used as designed, it's going to be needed in near hand-to-hand conditions. I can easily kill or maim an intruder or enemy with this type of gun as any other. It's a good back-up to the Remington 870.

ironvic

Black Snowman
October 2, 2007, 11:13 PM
The one held by the guy still standing at the end of the fight. :)

Seriously though, if my ass were on the line and I had to trust an out-of-the-box gun my 1st choice would be an HK USP in 45 ACP. Now, if I had to conceal it, the HK is a little on the large side.

If I could test it for a while first, I'd get a Tanfoglio Witness Elite Stock in 10mm. Oh, wait. That's exactly what I did! :D Barely any larger and heavier than my CZ-75B and with 14+1 of hard hitting 10mm goodness that I can put quickly and accurately on target. What's not to love. Mine needed to have the slide stop spring tweaked so the slide would lock back and the last round in the mag would feed properly, but has been 100% since.

Black Snowman
October 2, 2007, 11:18 PM
The one held by the guy still standing at the end of the fight. :)

Seriously though, if my ass were on the line and I had to trust an out-of-the-box gun my 1st choice would be an HK USP in 45 ACP. Now, if I had to conceal it, the HK is a little on the large side.

If I could test it for a while first, I'd get a Tanfoglio Witness Elite Stock in 10mm. Oh, wait. That's exactly what I did! :D Barely any larger and heavier than my CZ-75B and with 14+1 of hard hitting 10mm goodness that I can put quickly and accurately on target. What's not to love. Mine needed to have the slide stop spring tweaked so the slide would lock back and the last round in the mag would feed properly, but has been 100% since.

TokyoShapiro
October 4, 2007, 10:08 AM
a very relative question. its the one in your hand that your shooting and hitting your target. brands don't matter so long as it works in your hand.

Agouti
October 4, 2007, 06:37 PM
We're discussing what to get now, so you can MAKE it the gun in your hand when the times comes.

Get a CZ-75.

It's amazingly accurate, cheap, and mag are everywhere. Also, it goes bang every time you pull the trigger.

Also, no offense, but I like my guns to be made out of steel, not plastic.
I even cringe to know that my airsoft guns are made of plastic.

Sir Aardvark
October 5, 2007, 01:27 AM
There is something that I don't quite understand here....

Multiple people are posting that the 9mm is THE combat round to have, and yet, the U.S. military in Iraq has found that this is an inadequate round for combat purposes, and is considering reviving the venerable .45ACP as its main sidearm.

Not to turn this into the classic 9mm versus .45ACP contoversy, but why promote something that has been shown to be less effective in actual combat situations?. Real-life experience does need to be taken into consideration.

** I'll be the first to say "Combat", not "Service". My understanding is that the hollowpoint super-uber 9mm self-defense ammo that is popular for "Service" carry is not allowed on the battlefield, where the FMJ reigns supreme - it is here in the "Combat" role where the .45ACP FMJ is supposed to really shine in comparison to the over-penetrating less-lethal 9mm FMJ.**

Stretchman
October 5, 2007, 01:53 AM
Surprised virtually no one said .357 Magnum. For the longest time, it was the number one man stopper in the world.

Loads of revolvers and some semi autos chambered for it.
I think it works. So did quite a number of LEO agencies. But alas, it's time has passed.

bdjansen
October 5, 2007, 04:18 AM
The Germans were incredulous when they'd hit our boys with 9mm and we'd take the hits, turn around and drop them with a .45.

Yeah, I love this too. :rolleyes:

19-3Ben
October 5, 2007, 04:26 AM
You mentioned arming a large body of people. To me, this screams .357 mag revolver. The simple manual of arms makes it the best for arming people who don't a have a ton of experience with guns. My choice would be a Ruger GP100.

SX1guy
October 5, 2007, 08:20 AM
Glock 17 or 19 are todays best & most reliable tools for that kind of work...(Killing people in combat)

crankshop1000
October 5, 2007, 09:31 AM
You should have made this question a poll. The results would have been interesting. Chuck.

Rexster
October 6, 2007, 11:51 PM
Stretchman, I actually did give a vote of confidence to the .357, in a GP100. :) I still carry one to work with me, on big-city night shift police patrol, though my duty holster pistol, by regulation, is a .40 DA autoloader. IMHO, the revolver is simpler for arming a large number of people with little firearms experience, but is also an excellent weapon for those who wish to develop a very high level of skill.

chaim
October 7, 2007, 04:20 AM
When I think "combat" handgun, I think military. So, I wouldn't throw out the .40S&W (even for police or individual use I wouldn't). For a major institutional buyer the costs aren't much different between the calibers. For you and me buying quality JHPs the costs aren't much different either. As for the snappy part, I used to agree but in most modern platforms it isn't that snappy (shoot a K-frame or L-frame .357mag back to back with the .40S&W and see what you think of it then, the .40 will seem like a .22, and few people think a service sized revolver in .357mag is unmanagable).

Anyway, I'm going to steer clear of caliber now and just go for guns:

-SIG. SIGs are among the top combat guns today and will be for some time.

-Glock. I hate Glocks, but they are reliable and simple to use and maintain.

-S&W M&P. 'Nuff said. I really think the U.S. military should throw the next contract this way. They are well made, reliable, and made in the USA.

-FNP

-Beretta 92/96 and the Taurus version (PT92 and PT100)

-Browning HP

-Colt (or any major manufacturers) 1911

-CZ 75B may be up there.

I'm sure I'm leaving out a ton of great guns. That is the real point I guess. It is hard to say which is the best (and best for what- accuracy, ease of maintainance, reliability, the best overall combination, best combination for the price, etc.). There are a ton out there that are good solid combat handguns that will do the job and take the abuse of combat, that are relatively easy to maintain. The military will have a ton of tests to wean out some and pick one that works for what they want. Pick the one that works best for your particular criteria.

AtticusThraxx
October 7, 2007, 04:31 PM
Out of the box....Sig P220. But I'd probably grab my Springfield Gov.Model first. But then I've always been a .45 guy.

mgregg85
October 8, 2007, 09:28 PM
This is a crazily broad question with way too many options to consider so I will offer you this...
A Springfield XD in any caliber you want. It beats the block in any category.

amper
October 9, 2007, 10:02 PM
This can be debated until the cows come home, but the fact of the matter is that there are several combat pistol designs that have stood the test of real world combat and come away shining. Foremost among these are the M1911, the Browning Hi-Power, the Glock, the CZ 75, the SIG P220-series, and the Beretta 92-series. Each of these models has proven itself time and again and there isn't much to decide among them other than personal preference.

There are also several other handguns out there that may join the ranks of the above in time, such as the HK USP and later derivatives, the Walther P-99, the Springfield XD/HS 2000, which have also proven themselves in service with various agencies around the world, just not to the same extent as the previously mentioned designs.

Bottom line, I'd be happy to carry any one of these weapons into combat. My personal preference is probably for the simplicity of the Glock design, though I would prefer it were made in an all-metal version. I'd also probably say that I'd prefer the .40 S&W caliber, given a choice, but I wouldn't worry too much if I had to go with 9mm Parabellum or .45 ACP.

REPOMAN
October 10, 2007, 02:34 PM
H&K USPc.......NUFF SAID

RLsnow
October 11, 2007, 11:30 AM
Norwegian military and police use the Glock 17

Norwegian Special forces use the USP....

strangelittleman
October 12, 2007, 06:12 PM
Hmm......I think there is no "one size fits all" type of answer to this question. I personally have my favorites in revolver and autopistol, however i take great pains to keep up on the manual of arms of most service type sidearms, so that if I had to press one into service i could be reasonably effective....
I guess what I'm trying to articulate(poorly) is; so long as the sidearm is reliable, durable, reasonably accurate and propels a projectile that will penetrate deep enough into the major organs and/or crush the major structural features( skull, hip assembly,femur, etc) of the oppo in order to put him down, I'll be satisfied...... Happy hunting!

Linear Thinker
October 12, 2007, 06:36 PM
The question is loaded (pun intended), but I will try to give an answer based on 30 years of shooting experience, some of it in the military, but none from actual combat. I am also a range officer at a public shooting range, and get to shoot pretty much all the guns on the market.

No revolvers in this crowd - sorry. While there's a J-frame on my ankle as I am typing this, it's no combat gun.

1911 is an excellent gun for well trained professionals, but cannot hold it's own against the modern designs. It is too expensive when made properly.

Glock is an excellent all-around gun, and my choice for carry. There is a good reason why Glock owns the police sales in this country and others.

HK USP series are beautifully engineered and extremely well made guns. They have been as reliable as Glocks.

SIGs are well engineered and well made guns, but their "different" decocking operation requires re-training, and getting used to. SIG decocker is in the same spot as the slide release on my Glock. If you are a SIG fan, don't buy any other make of guns.

S&W M&P has out-Glocked the Glock, I plan to buy one.

Which one is the best? It depends.
LT

MIL-DOT
October 12, 2007, 08:22 PM
i think the below post was the most intelligent,informed, and unbiased one of them all, and i wouldn't even try to improve on it........m.



amper
New Member


Join Date: 09-13-07
Posts: 25

This can be debated until the cows come home, but the fact of the matter is that there are several combat pistol designs that have stood the test of real world combat and come away shining. Foremost among these are the M1911, the Browning Hi-Power, the Glock, the CZ 75, the SIG P220-series, and the Beretta 92-series. Each of these models has proven itself time and again and there isn't much to decide among them other than personal preference.

There are also several other handguns out there that may join the ranks of the above in time, such as the HK USP and later derivatives, the Walther P-99, the Springfield XD/HS 2000, which have also proven themselves in service with various agencies around the world, just not to the same extent as the previously mentioned designs.

Bottom line, I'd be happy to carry any one of these weapons into combat. My personal preference is probably for the simplicity of the Glock design, though I would prefer it were made in an all-metal version. I'd also probably say that I'd prefer the .40 S&W caliber, given a choice, but I wouldn't worry too much if I had to go with 9mm Parabellum or .45 ACP.

Gunfighter.45
October 17, 2007, 04:38 PM
The 1911 is a (wall hanger) it is very very very old and out dated innovasion there is nothing else you can do to this pistol to make it better or worse than already is.I don't care who makes it.The 1911 is one the most unreliable and most cumbersome and excusable pistols ever made. I pitty the soldier that would want to carry such a (P O S).

Vern Humphrey
October 17, 2007, 04:41 PM
I have a very good friend who won the DSC by crawling into a VC basecamp, and shooting the so-and-sos in their holes with his M1911A1.

Vern Humphrey
October 17, 2007, 04:42 PM
I have a very good friend who won the DSC by crawling into a VC basecamp, and shooting the so-and-sos in their holes with his M1911A1.

Walkalong
October 17, 2007, 05:10 PM
The 1911 is a (wall hanger) it is very very very old and out dated innovasion there is nothing else you can do to this pistol to make it better or worse than already is.I don't care who makes it.The 1911 is one the most unreliable and most cumbersome and excusable pistols ever made. I pitty the solider that would want to carry such a (P O S).

:what::what::what:


WOW

My experience is WAAAY on the other end of the spectrum from that. So is many a soldiers who managed to come home because of their 1911. :scrutiny:

possum
October 17, 2007, 05:35 PM
The 1911 is a (wall hanger) it is very very very old and out dated innovasion there is nothing else you can do to this pistol to make it better or worse than already is.I don't care who makes it.The 1911 is one the most unreliable and most cumbersome and excusable pistols ever made. I pitty the solider that would want to carry such a (P O S).
:fire::what::eek::uhoh::confused::banghead::cuss:
wow what a heck of a way to start your stay on thr. i will for warn you buddy you are gonna get flamed hardcore!

you must be a miss guided youth?:banghead:

possum
October 17, 2007, 05:36 PM
The 1911 is a (wall hanger) it is very very very old and out dated innovasion there is nothing else you can do to this pistol to make it better or worse than already is.I don't care who makes it.The 1911 is one the most unreliable and most cumbersome and excusable pistols ever made. I pitty the solider that would want to carry such a (P O S).

wow what a heck of a way to start your stay on thr. i will for warn you buddy you are gonna get flamed hardcore!

you must be a miss guided youth?

Gunfighter.45
October 17, 2007, 08:37 PM
To the old timer possom, Iam 100% sure that Iam not the only one in thr who thinks the 1911 is old and out dated platform.So bring on the fire.Truth is whether you like it or not, there is better innovasion and technology out there.Sorry old timers to bust your 1911 bubble but the truth hurts!

No disrespect to our world war veterns...much respect to you,GOD bless you all.

KINGMAX
October 17, 2007, 08:41 PM
When I chose my personal protection pistol, I selected a GLOCK 21 in 45 acp.

Raspu10
October 17, 2007, 08:53 PM
G.L..O...C....K.....:neener:

But I Respect The 1911 Alot As Well... And To Gunfighter45 ... yes ... your the only person.:neener:

mljdeckard
October 17, 2007, 09:04 PM
Yes, Todd Jarrett and Rob Leatham, for example, can't find 1911s to be reliable or accurate for what they do at all.

The 1911 has saved more soldiers' lives than any other combat handgun. I am going downrange again, and if I could get away with it, I would take mine with me, even if it meant having to leave it there rather than get busted for trying to take it home.

The 1911 is what you graduate to when you really have started learning pistolcraft.

Walkalong
October 17, 2007, 09:08 PM
Sorry old timers to bust your 1911 bubble but the truth hurts!

It is not burst. Not to worry. You are just terribly wrong.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" and the 1911 is a rose in full bloom. Call it what you will, it is still a rose.

Is it outdated, or are you just a babe in the woods thirsting for knowledge?

Say you don't care for it, say you prefer something else, and I have no problem, but to say what you have is ludicrous.

One, not so old, "Old Timer", over and out. :)

Oh yea. Welcome to THR.

Bigshooter45
October 17, 2007, 09:15 PM
I believe that the best combat handgun is the one you own....that being said most combat shooting are brief and violent. That is why I want the biggest piece of lead going into my target. The .45 acp is the gun for me...perfer the kimber 1911. I believe 9mm is a light weight in the shooting world. I have carried one in warm weather when a weapon is easily seen. The old slab side in the best for me...easy to carry all day with its flat sides and heavy hitting power.

Walkalong
October 17, 2007, 09:21 PM
Welcome to THR Bigshooter45. Might as well get in on a good one. :evil:

Rexster
October 17, 2007, 10:32 PM
John Moses Browning's 1911 is not outdated just because it is old. I consider it a quite good battle pistol. It does not fit me as well as my SIG P229 or Ruger sixguns, and I now prefer a DA handgun for a "go to" weapon that I will grab in a hurry, but I would have no hesitation to use my 100% reliable Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special in a gunfight. No weapon is perfect for all people and all tasks; I wear a P229 duty pistol on police patrol due to agency regs, and probably would not return to using a 1911 for that purpose if the policy change was rolled back to the good old days. Both weapons are good for me, for different tasks. If my patrol area were to degenerate into a 21st-Century version of 1980's Beirut, the task would probably change a bit.

ken B
October 17, 2007, 11:03 PM
Quote:
The 1911 is a (wall hanger) it is very very very old and out dated innovasion there is nothing else you can do to this pistol to make it better or worse than already is.I don't care who makes it.The 1911 is one the most unreliable and most cumbersome and excusable pistols ever made. I pitty the solider that would want to carry such a (P O S). >>>>>


Pity is without the extra 'T'...and you do realize not that long ago the USMC Force Recon went BACK to the 1911 platform...i mean being outdated and all, but they aren't soldiers, they're Marines..so maybe that doesn't count...:D

Cumbersome? I thought the Tec-9 was cumbersome!

I think Glock, XD, S&W 3rd generations, Browning Hi Power, AND the 1911 are viable defense pieces, not to mention revolvers, etc...isn't the best defensive pistol the one you shoot the best, and can place the shot where it needs to be WHEN it needs to be there?

I only own 1 1911...and it's been nothing but reliable and good to go, and it's not a high dollar custom...

just my opinion, everyone is entitled the them..and welcome to the forum!;)

Geno
October 17, 2007, 11:51 PM
Homer! Good to see you! What pistol do you like?! Which?! Homer...Homer...where you going Homer?!

Oh well, so much for the Homers. Now, who has some facts? Give me some rock-hard facts. Just the facts. I know, everyone likes their pistols. Give me the facts.

engineer151515
October 18, 2007, 12:07 AM
I'll take the Glock 17.

Power to weight ratio - just hard to beat.

Gunfighter.45
October 18, 2007, 12:46 AM
My first AR-15 build with his new buddy, and thanks for the warm welcome :neener: http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u57/gunfighter308/DSCN0073.jpg

Autolycus
October 18, 2007, 12:57 AM
In my opinion it is the HK USP. I like the fact that it is ambidextrous in a sense it can be for both righty and lefty as well as can have an ambidextrous lever. I also like the fact it can be a DA/SA, a SAO, a DAO, or a Combination of a DA/SA with a SAO capable trigger system.

It has good capacity in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. It is very reliable and is a lightweight innovative design that has an excellent reduction system. My only problem with it is that the light rail is not the standard. However HK was the first to put an integral light and sight rail on a pistol. Unfortunately the industry did not adopt their rail.

I would suggest that following the USP design is the Sig P series. The 226 and 228 are excellent guns. I like their weight and they balance so naturally. My only complaint is that they are not as lefty friendly as the USP. As a lefty I get annoyed with the decock lever at times and the slidestop lever. But overall this is a training issue and not a real issue.

Either way there are many good designs out there but I feel that the P2000 is the design for me. If it would have all of the trigger systems as the USP I think it would be the ultimate pistol.

nitestocker
October 18, 2007, 01:34 AM
glock 19 cz.po1 or my beretta 92 fs i think those would all be good choices. the reason i go 9mm instead of 45 for a milatary weapon you said there is more ammo in a double stacker and with+p hollow points its hitten real close to a 45 now i started s##t

rugerfreak
October 18, 2007, 01:44 AM
Having owned pretty much every pistol out there at one time or another---I'm down to one gun---a night sighted Sig P226-----its what works best for ME----17+1 rounds of soft shootin --easy to control 9mm.

SuperNaut
October 18, 2007, 01:47 AM
My first AR-15 build with his new buddy, and thanks for the warm welcome

I think your photo of your Glock on pink satin bedsheets is a more interesting choice...:) ;)

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u57/gunfighter308/AR15014.jpg

possum
October 18, 2007, 03:32 AM
To the old timer possom, Iam 100% sure that Iam not the only one in thr who thinks the 1911 is old and out dated platform.So bring on the fire.Truth is whether you like it or not, there is better innovasion and technology out there.Sorry old timers to bust your 1911 bubble but the truth hurts!
thats a first being called an old timmer. i am 22 yrs old and just bought my first 1911 the other day, i am a late bloomer to most people. i have always liked the 1911, but the money was never there, it is now.

there is a reason i have one they are fine weapons that are the choice of weapons for some of the most highspeed people on the planet.(not why i got mine) i got mine because over the years i have alot of experience with em and i know they work. i know the 1911 is great and i will continue to think so until someone will give me a real reason and not a bunch of fluff to why the are supposedly so bad.

Gustav
October 18, 2007, 03:57 AM
What is the best handgun in use today?

For faithful followers of John Moses Browning in a big bore it would be a .45ACP 1911 platform in 9mm the P-35 Browning High Power comes to mind.

For those who love DA/SA alloy frame semi autos the Sig 220 228/229 is the leader

For those who like the original in combat tupperware the alter of Gaston Glock has its share of devotees.

Those who want polymer pistol just not a Glock usually go with H & K or an XD

In former Warsaw pact or iron curtain countries and those they sold or gave away aid to the Makarov is the main contender.

Many with US military service will want a Beretta 92

Those wanting something different with good ergonomics built on traditional lines often go with CZ pistols

Many old school die hards still say six (or 5) for sure is the way to go and select a revolver for some it is the preferred choice.

Allot depends on who you ask where you live what you have experience with and what is available, thankfully its a big pond with lots of fish so we have many good choices and can freely choose to do so.:D

Go with what works best for you and what you trust your life to.;)

strangelittleman
October 18, 2007, 11:32 AM
The most widely issued sidearm of the 20th century was the S&W M&P K-frame revolver, also the most reliable sidearm of the 20th century. Based on reliability & accuracy, durability, the M&P revolver and the Peacemaker are the most effective sidearms shot for shot....but man, that reload time on the old Peacemaker, does leave a bit to be desired, better make that six count!

SoonerSP101
October 18, 2007, 12:06 PM
Kimber ICQBs with Surefire IMPL, Dawson precision rails, Tritium Novak LoMount sights, Gemtech TRL Tactical Retention Lanyards, modified Safariland 6004 holsters, and Wilson '47D' 8 round magazines.

mljdeckard
October 19, 2007, 04:40 PM
It is a bit disengenuous to say that a double-stack 9mm has more damage potential than a .45 single stack. Add up the actual weight of the bullets (115 gr vs 230 gr) and actual cm3 of tissue damage potential and see if the difference is really that lopsided?

I also believe the 9mm to be 'good enough' in the man-stopping department when using premuim defensive hollow-points. BUT REMEMBER, we are still pretending to follow the Hague Accords (which we never actually signed) which means that when our soldiers carry a double-stack anything in 9mm, it will be loaded with 115 gr fmj. At least if it were a .45, 230 gr hardball is a well-proven manstopper. And yes, while I prefer 1911s, I would obviously take another good .45, such as a USP, a Glock 21, etc.

sb350hp
October 19, 2007, 04:57 PM
Best handgun in combat 1911.

But in use today in large numbers? Well you wont get "BEST" you will get what is reliable, and cheap (lowest bidder). Glocks,Beretta's,etc.

"Today in large numbers" That is not the 1911 however many special forces still use and choose the 1911 45ACP of any other choice of handgun on the market.

Zoogster
October 19, 2007, 09:19 PM
You mention combat, and yet speak of discount deals in the same question.
If a major agency or the military adopts a handgun for combat the ammunition it uses will become more widespread and solve any concerns about availability and price.
So price of ammo in terms of combat thinking is relative only to the the amount of metal required per round.

So are you really asking what is best for you, what is best for a civilian, what is best for police, or what is best in actual combat?
As a civilian a light weight polymer pistol that uses widely available ammunition might be a great choice.
For a military where soldiers fall, crawl, roll etc over thier weapon, I certainly wouldn't want a plastic gun. In combat weapons take abuse above and beyond the mere operation of the weapon. Something highly modular is also helpful since it allows both quick adaption of the weapon, and the ability to cheaply and affordably replace a section of the firearm rather than say the entire frame.

In combat you want different things from different weapons. Since a handgun in combat is a secondary weapon you must think of what its uses will be. It will be restricted to FMJ rounds in the military which changes the choice. A larger diameter bullet becomes more important without expansion. Yet if they have body armor a small diameter hole with more energy becomes more effective. If you expect most of the enemy to have body armor rated to stop pistol rounds (and trauma plates in spots for some rifle rounds), then a low capacity high power backup if you ever actualy do need your pistol instead of the rifle you always carry might be worth considering. Loaded with AP rounds of course. IMHO that beats the go smaller and smaller philosophy you see in the ammunition designed for PDW's which have proven to be unreliable manstoppers with or without body armor on the target. That way when your rifle is down you are not left plinking at them ineffectively while they return with rifle fire. (Totaly different from current practice of using a 9mm round and just planning to basicly never use it, or a .45 to only face jihadists without the armor most professional armed forces wear now.)

Now as a civilian or police officer things are totaly different. The handgun is in fact the primary weapon most of the time, and you want medium capacity and medium power. More rounds than you need, and sacrifice power for controllability and followup shots. Lighter weight is more important than absolute durability as well since you shouldn't be rolling over, and falling down on, and generaly abusing the weapon. A assailiant without body armor is more likely than one with. Expanding ammo means the bullet diameter upon firing is less important than the diamter after expansion and total energy. So with both the use and the targets being different, the ideal characteristics are totaly different.
Primary weapon vs secondary weapon, armored vs unarmored, weight vs durability, modular vs streamlined, expansion vs FMJ or AP.

So what is really your question? Best handgun for what? Does combat really have anything to do with the information you seek?
The best "combat" handgun is not the handgun I would want to carry for use in a defensive firefight as a civilian.
The best civilian handgun is not one I would want soldiers on a battlefield to have facing other soldiers in combat.

Avenger
October 20, 2007, 12:05 AM
1895 Nagant. You hand it to your enemy, then laugh as he ruptures himself trying to fire DA.

Choclabman
October 20, 2007, 09:17 AM
IMO- The 1911.
It is a Time and War tested/proven design. (Cap's on purpose)

I know that the ones I own, have been nothing but 100% reliable.

I pick the 1911 over HK
Correia, you reading this? :D

AtticusThraxx
October 20, 2007, 12:02 PM
Well said Zoogster. By far the most thoughtful answer I've heard on the subject. I'd have written the same cept' for the plate in my head and short attention sp.......................................

gandog56
October 20, 2007, 02:30 PM
There it is...lol Just any 1911 will do huh? Your first post and you've put it out there Bigger then life.


I would put almost ANY 1911 ahead of a Glock.

Fishman777
October 23, 2007, 05:58 PM
I'm sure that most of you have a lot more experience than I do, but I really think it is hard to argue against glocks in this thread. I've tried really hard not to like glocks, primarily because of the arrogance of some of their fans, but they really are excellent guns.

The Glock torture tests are pretty impressive, I shoot them well, they are easy to maintain, they are also very durable. If I had to chose a handgun to use in combat, I would probably choose a glock. Are they my favorite handguns? No, but I can't think of another semi automatic gun that I'd rather have out in the field, in a combat situation. My second choice would be a DA/SA HK USP.

About 1911s...

I've got a feeling that I'm about to hijack this thread.

I'm probably going to upset some folks by what I'm about to say. Please don't get pissed off if you like the 1911 platform. I really want to know what I'm missing. I've read dozens of threads on different forums about out of the box 1911 reliability issues. I wanted to buy a 1911 a few months back, but was scared off by the prospects of spending $1500 on a gun that would need an additional financial investment to make it work properly.

I started frequenting several 1911 boards a few months ago. I was doing homework so that I would make a good purchasing decision. After seeing what I would consider to be a large number of posts dealing with reliability issues with the 1911 platform, I quickly discovered that one of these websites had a troubleshooting guide for correcting 1911 reliability issues. I've never seen such a FAQ on any gun website, ever. The very fact that such a FAQ exists tells me that there is a either a weakness in the 1911 design or with the quality of the current manufacturing practises. Maybe modern 1911s aren't made like they used to be, but if I were to spend $1500 on a handgun, it would not be a gun that appears to be hit or miss.

Again, I don't mean to offend any 1911 fans, but I really don't understand how people can argue about how reliable these guns are when there appear to be so many problems with these guns. Pease help me to understand this. I love the guns. I'd still like to own one, but I don't trust them. I certainly wouldn't want to depend on one in a combat situation.

VMIRat1995
October 23, 2007, 06:10 PM
If the sh-- REALLY hit the fan and I had only 2 small, hand-held weapons to chose from, I'd have my CZ-75B and my K-Bar. That's it.

Elm Creek Smith
October 25, 2007, 12:42 AM
The Beretta M9 has an incredibly good record of reliability.

After the early slide separation problems were addressed, of course. I carried an 1911A1 for 16 years in the Army, but it wasn't until I carried an M9 that I asked the armorer to issue me one of the spare M16's, any of the spare M16's, in the racks.

ECS

Rinspeed
October 25, 2007, 07:54 AM
Again, I don't mean to offend any 1911 fans, but I really don't understand how people can argue about how reliable these guns are when there appear to be so many problems with these guns. Pease help me to understand this. I love the guns. I'd still like to own one, but I don't trust them. I certainly wouldn't want to depend on one in a combat situation.




1911s aren't rocket science but some do need more attention then some other models to run right. The three most important things for a 1911 to run reliably are good ammo, good magazines and proper extractor tension. For some odd reason more than a few 1911 manufacturers get cheap on mags. This is probably the number one reason they have problems. I'm not sure which $1500 you are talking about but for that kind of money you shouldn't have any problems getting a good one.

SX1guy
October 25, 2007, 08:55 AM
Military types use Beretta's because that is what they are issued...

Operator's use a mish mash of different guns but HK's are on the top or very near top along with Sigs, SW's, Glocks, Colts, BHP, ...

gandog56
October 25, 2007, 09:23 AM
Not any 1911. But a good custom 1911 is simply the best. That is why they are chosen by the best of the best like LAPD SWAT, FBI HRT, Marines Force Recon, Delta and so on and so forth. They also dominate every pistol competition from Bullseye to USPSA.

Ah, but it's the loose as a goose, mass produced by different manufacturers, all parts fit all 1911's, that made the history.

SX1guy
October 25, 2007, 10:28 AM
It's not about accuracy, it's about reliability, shocking power, number of rounds...

JHansenAK47
October 26, 2007, 01:15 AM
sphinx 3000

Freman
October 26, 2007, 01:34 AM
What's the opinion of the .45 Colt Commander?

StrikeEagle
October 26, 2007, 07:40 AM
What's the opinion of the .45 Colt Commander?

It's my idea of the premier carry piece. And it's what I carry and keep by my bed.

BrokenArrow
October 26, 2007, 04:15 PM
Pistols that are the easiest to hit w under stress, and work reliably under severe conditions, are the best combat handguns. SA and striker fired autos, double action revolvers in my experience.

Today, that would be 1911s and Glocks. A few yrs ago it would have been 1911s, BHPs, and CZs. A few more yrs ago it would have been 1911s, BHPs, and Smith/Colt/Ruger wheelguns. A few yrs from now it will be 1911s and maybe Glocks/XDs/M&Ps ... ;)

WVMountainBoy
October 27, 2007, 03:09 AM
I'm going to bite...I'm going to go with the Glock 17, 9mm is a world wide fixture, the gun doesn't break down, is accurate enough, and its economical.

That being said, it was a worldly answer. I work for the WVSP and our current weapon is the S&W 4045, went to it due to not being happy with the 40 for many reasons. The 4045 isn't that good of a combat weapon, its a pain to take down and clean, it doesn't like LOTS of ammo choices from my observations and its really only as accurate as any other combat gun...sorta run of the mill in that area. As far as what I want on my hip in the urban jungle I carry a 5 inch XD45 now a days, it could very well be a mass use gun. Its more accurate than the 4045, carries more rounds, provides the knockdown of the 45 ACP, and is a breeze to clean and care for. Now if we could just get the rest of the world to wake up and prize the 45 like us power hungry americans :)

BrokenArrow
October 27, 2007, 11:05 AM
Different ways to look at it...

What do the best "combat" shooters use?

1911s and Glocks rule the "winner's" circles, or guns like them. Delta, FBI/LAPD SWAT, GSG9, Sayeret Matkal, etc. People who are issued something else want guns like them when they have a choice.

They are the best now, and guns like them will be the best later.

Looking at various RFPs for military/LE pistols around the globe (the US always really wants 1911s) they want (after basic reliability/durability/accuracy):

Consistent trigger pull (SA or DAO hammer fired, striker fired auto)
Ambi controls (mag/slide/safety)
Adjustable grip (backstrap/sideplates)
Frame rail
Modular components (ease of maint at lowest level w fewest tools)
Optional sizes(world)/calibers(USA)

Look at the specs for what the German Polizei/Bundeswehr want, or why the RFP for the US Army's FHS that merged w SOCOM's SOF CP into the JCP that went back to CP and was indefinitely postponed looked like it did. Guns aimed at those fandangos were the LEM HKs, SAO/DAK SIGs, G21SF, FNP, OSS, Px4, P99.

brasskeeper
October 27, 2007, 08:34 PM
S&W X-frame 460 magnum

now really

economy wise = Glock 17

But my pick will always be 1911 45acp


by the way I'm keeping score the following four replies are the best so far:

#1 1895 Nagant. You hand it to your enemy, then laugh as he ruptures himself trying to fire DA.

#2 I'd like even one citation from a German source on that

#3 there mountain of corpses due to
Pointy sticks
unfenced swiming pools
industrial lathe accidents
unfortunate care bear related decapitations
squirells
Time.

#4 Davis .25

Choclabman
October 28, 2007, 12:14 PM
Double.. Sorry

Choclabman
October 28, 2007, 12:15 PM
Fishman,

1911's are fine pistols. The problem is that people want bulls-eye accuracy from a combat handgun. When you start tightening up the tolerances, you jeopardize reliability.
I have seen sloppy fitting SA 5" Mil-Spec run 100% with no cleaning with all types ball and HP, while a TRS started choking hard around 800 rounds.
I do not need, bulls-eye accuracy in a SD pistol. Ever wonder why a Glock just keeps going and going. The tolerance's are very loose.
For SD, give me a 1911 that is what some would call sloppy, and I'm happy.

IndridCold
October 29, 2007, 01:05 AM
USP .45 Tactical...

Fishman777
October 29, 2007, 03:13 PM
Thanks for clearing the 1911 "issue" up for me. I'm really more of a revolver guy, but I've always really liked 1911s.

I assumed that the reliability problems were due to either design or manufacturing defects. It is good to hear that the 1911s can be reliable without having to send them out to a smith. Maybe I'll still get a 1911 down the road.

GLOOB
October 30, 2007, 12:26 AM
45 cal has 61% more cross sectional surface area than 9mm, which means quicker incapacitation with FMJ.

Let's put this into perspective. If you took ten shots of FMJ at a BG in a combat scenario where he is fighting back - thus, you are not able to walk up behind him and place a shot in his CNS or heart - (and pretend that you could shoot both guns with equal accuracy and speed) a .45 cal would have a greater chance of damaging a major artery and would do 61% more damage to lung, liver, and small arteries on non-vital hits.

There is a reason bow hunters use broadheads when hunting.

Ok, so throw hollowpoints into the mix. This closes the gap, but 9mm hollowpoints still don't expand as large as the middleweight .45 cal bullets. (But the .40's are pretty much identical!) And performance through bone may not be as good.

jleatherneck
February 6, 2008, 04:29 AM
Wake up! The 45 is King and Glock is the most reliable handgun ever made. Glocks are accurate enough for combat use. The Glock 21 has a 13 + 1 capacity. Nothing more needs to be said. Remember we are not talking about a CCW weapon but a Combat weapon.

Rinspeed
February 6, 2008, 07:19 AM
Wake up! The 45 is King and Glock is the most reliable handgun ever made.



Been drinking some of that kool aid I see.

Craft714
February 6, 2008, 07:23 AM
The one you have in your hand when the Sh*# hits the fan.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
February 6, 2008, 01:26 PM
whatever gun i can grab. it doesn't matter if tis a glock or a hi-point if your in the heat of battle you dont care about what ever gun you have as long as it works.

Anonymous Coward
February 6, 2008, 05:11 PM
The Ithaca Auto and Burglar.

In 12 gauge.

Ala Dan
February 6, 2008, 05:43 PM
1911's, SIG's, H&K's, Glocks for sure~! Springfield XD's are on the rise. ;)

Revolver wise- Smith & Wesson, Colt, and Ruger are names that lead the way.

abrink
February 6, 2008, 10:12 PM
I'd have to say the browning hi-power. It's a proven design and available in both 9mm and .40S&W. Superb reliability and good COMBAT accuracy. Not the best target gun though.

MarcusWendt
February 7, 2008, 03:15 PM
Hmm, the title says the best combat handgun in use today, but then you talk about economy.

If you want a good budget gun, I think the M&P, XD, or Glock are all decent economy guns.

I really don't think there is a "best". I think there are many that are very good. What might be best for you might not be best for me. For me, right now, the best would be a Sig P226 or an M&P

NGIB
February 7, 2008, 03:25 PM
Jeez, another 1911 vs Glock thread.

The best combat handgun is the one you have nearby when you need it.

At the end of the day all a handgun is to a soldier is a stopgap until they can find a rifle. I have my personal favorites as well but I do try to stay objective and not exhibit a nearly religious fervor for any particular type...

JShirley
February 7, 2008, 03:41 PM
what is the most accurate, reliable, and economical handgun

You can't have all that. The most accurate will not be the most reliable, and the most economical will not be either of the first two (in all probability).

Glocks are good compromise weapons, with the advantage of simplicity. Remember a sidearm is never the "go to" weapon if you're planning on a fight. Even a submachine gun is better.

John

JShirley
February 7, 2008, 03:45 PM
Wake up! The 45 is King and Glock is the most reliable handgun ever made. Glocks are accurate enough for combat use.

King of what? Any rifle cartridge will be more effective.

The Glock 21 has a 13 + 1 capacity. Nothing more needs to be said. Remember we are not talking about a CCW weapon but a Combat weapon.

Hm. I can think of some things that could be said...like the grip size of the 21, which is too large for many people. If we are talking about a "combat weapon" we should be talking about a longarm. "Wake up". :rolleyes:

John

Omaha-BeenGlockin
February 7, 2008, 03:51 PM
Based on my personal experience.

Hard to go wrong with Glock--Sig---Beretta 92---Ruger--yes Ruger or S&W.

1911's are too tempermental and HK's have weak magazine springs---which rules either of these two out----and YES --I've owned both.

Ske1etor
February 7, 2008, 04:10 PM
1911A1 Government model .45ACP. No bells and whistles. Only upgrades should be flared and lowered ejection port, memory bump on grip safety, skeletonized hammer and 8 round magazines.

The hammer upgrade just makes it look better so I guess that would be called a "Bell and/or whistle..."

They helped defeat Hitler and his box-o-monkey's so I would assume they can handle whatever joe blow you may come into contact with. Ill take my chances with the tried and true...

Blue02Formula
February 7, 2008, 05:43 PM
XD's are as reliable as a Glock with better ergonomics and a better safety. That is why I spent my money on an XD40 service model.

Tamren
February 7, 2008, 05:59 PM
If I were to carry a handgun in a situation I knew for certain I'd need to start shooting, I'd 2nd the Kel Tec PLR-16. Just with a stock, a red dot sight, and a drum mag. Of course, at that point it would be closer to a SMG then a pistol....
;)

OT, my first pick for a weapon to carry into a gun fight would be a Mossberg 590. Out of the various weapons I've handled I shoot a pump 12 gauge faster and more accurately then anything else I've gotten my hands on.

the_fallguy
February 7, 2008, 06:53 PM
I agree with the reasoning of the OP. The Glock 17 would be my choice for the same reasons.

sprice
December 26, 2008, 03:52 PM
a colt 1911, or a custom 1911 would be in my top ten- but i think the number one gun would be a heckler and koch hk45 or hk45c (c for compact) it holds 10 rnds and the combat for concealed carry holds 8. the others on my list of pistols to get are a glock 19 9mm, sig p226 in 9mm, and a glock 29 in 10mm. for concealed carry when the shot is going to be just 6 meters away id want a smith and wesson j-frame, its light and concealable and a 357 mag will do its job in that range anyday. a springfield xd or xdm isnt a bad choice either.

Doc_Jude
December 26, 2008, 05:03 PM
SEAL Team Six ran S&W 66's and apparently 686's. I would say that puts the 686 somewhere in the running against the 1911 & the G17...

Hey, I'll take all three! That's a SHTF armory right there, you got all your bases covered if you actually want to drop someone, and then you can load your G17 with "anemic" 9mm, right?

North of 49th
December 26, 2008, 08:35 PM
Best COMBAT handgun- A full sized Glock (caliber could vary but I would lean toward 9x19mm). I think all of the reasons have been already stated here more than once. I must also say that a good 1911 would be my second choice followed by a Ruger GP-100. The revolver i would choose simply for it's indestructibility and the increased possibility for it to "bang".

okespe04
December 26, 2008, 08:47 PM
Any handgun with decent stopping power that you can shoot really really well.

orchidhunter
December 26, 2008, 08:54 PM
Don't CZ say that there CZ 75 is used by more Armys than any other pistol. orchidhunter

Dr.Rob
December 26, 2008, 09:15 PM
What ever is on the cover of "Combat Handgunner" this month. :D

Seriously I think the BHP and the Tokarev were produced AND issued in numbers that no other pistol can come close to, not even the 1911.

Are they prefect? Nope.

But ANY of those 3 in mil-spec trim would suit ya just fine.

9mm is the global caliber.

I still want a steel framed Grach.:scrutiny: I have no basis for this in reality, "Grach" just sounds bad-assed like something a guy who is trained to kill with a shovel might carry.

Based on comments... how ANYONE used a 1911 without a memory bump/flared port (insert custom modification here) in 2 world wars is beyond me.:rolleyes: Looks at my 1919 vintage Colt (not an A1) and shakes head, guess mine just fits me.

Sapper771
December 27, 2008, 12:34 AM
I will have to agree with my Glock comrades. I do love my 1911's, although I have had a lot of problems out of them. I have yet to see a problem out of my Glocks. Caliber? I prefer the 45acp, but that probably wont be around, it will have to be a 9mm since it is standard NATO. So there it is , Glock 17 for me.
I have carried a Beretta into combat, and it is a very scary ordeal. I never want to depend on those pieces of junk ever again.
Yes , there are a lot of Glocks in Iraq. They are issued to the new Iraqi Police units that the US is training. The Iraqi Police love them too.

10/22plinker
December 27, 2008, 12:45 AM
1911 all the way design has had a long time to progress and is now been advanced into the #1 handgun large enough to be a service weapon large grip fitting a range hand sizes

Isher
December 27, 2008, 02:29 AM
Damn, you gave away the secret.

My Grach 9.5 mm, with its 110 mm barrel,

Doublestacked 16 round clips,

Alloy frame and compact envelope

Purely beats the **** out of the competition.........


Isher

BrokenArrow
December 27, 2008, 01:21 PM
What was the the best combat handgun in use in the past?

Sgt York (USA) killed 7 Germans w his 1911 .45 auto, Lt Van Vuuren (RSA) killed 11 Cubans w his Star 9mm auto, and Jim Cirillo (NYPD) did fine w his S&W revolvers. All those handguns are still in use today. Anybody done any better w any newer handguns?

The worst handguns in the best hands beat the best handguns in the worst hands...

"One should not be overly fond of famous swords and daggers."
- Asakura Toshikage

Big Bill
December 28, 2008, 12:26 AM
I used a 1911 in the military and hated it. I still do! I'll take a Colt Python or a S&W 686 in .357 mag or even a Ruger Redhawk KRH 444.

MCgunner
December 28, 2008, 12:37 AM
The one you have on you when you need it. After all, it's only for fighting your way back to your long arm, right?

tango2echo
December 30, 2008, 10:01 PM
I'm with you MCgunner.

2ndamd
December 30, 2008, 11:58 PM
What was the the best combat handgun in use in the past?

Sgt York (USA) killed 7 Germans w his 1911 .45 auto, Lt Van Vuuren (RSA) killed 11 Cubans w his Star 9mm auto, and Jim Cirillo (NYPD) did fine w his S&W revolvers. All those handguns are still in use today. Anybody done any better w any newer handguns?

The worst handguns in the best hands beat the best handguns in the worst hands...

"One should not be overly fond of famous swords and daggers."
- Asakura Toshikage

+1.

I'd hate to face Bill Jordan in combat.
And he only used a 6 shot .357 magnum! Man, he was fast and accurate!

I'll goto war against the enemy with ya'll but, I'll take my GP100s and SP101s :)

Edit: Can I bring a Marlin 1894c and double barrel 12 gauges?

Newton
December 31, 2008, 01:26 AM
I'm always surprised by the popularity of the 1911, the weapon simply doesn't have the reliability of more modern weapons, it has rightly been called the king of feedway stoppages.

As an overall package the Glock 22 would be hard to beat.

Bubba613
December 31, 2008, 09:28 AM
Smith and Wesson Combat Masterpiece.

travis74
December 31, 2008, 11:44 AM
Glock 17

shameless
December 31, 2008, 06:34 PM
"What is the best combat handgun in use today?"

Although I'm a 1911 lover, I must admit that the Glock is likely
the best.
As for caliber, I'm a .45acp man. But 9mm is cheaper and more easily found.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 31, 2008, 06:55 PM
Without question. A New York reload only costs you a lone Benjamin if you can't find it after the gunfight.

elktrout
December 31, 2008, 11:10 PM
This thread proves one thing and one thing only --- there are a lot of varying opinions on this subject and no way for anyone to prove his opinion beyond a reasonable doubt.

Anyone who has actually been engaged in combat will understandably have somewhat galvanized beliefs on the subject. Everyone who has posted detail here supporting their favorite weapon has done so based on an understanding of what THEY perceive as best for THEMSELVES.

Likely no one who has posted a reply to this thread has actually been personally involved in enough shootouts to provide overwhelming, first-hand evidence regarding a personal choice of this sort.

It also is interesting that the Navy Seals returned to the 45ACP, and the gun is manufactured by H&K. Food for thought.

user4574
January 1, 2009, 01:24 AM
Id have to say the Walther p99 in .40sw. It is accurate and a damn sexy gun to boot

tango2echo
January 1, 2009, 12:12 PM
It also is interesting that the Navy Seals returned to the 45ACP, and the gun is manufactured by H&K. Food for thought.

Well put.

T2E

JTQ911
January 2, 2009, 03:48 AM
Not wanting to sound like a mall ninja here, especially since I'm new to this forum, but Sigs and HK's come to mind. Look at what the elite military units around the world carry, if they CHOOSE to carry a particular weapon, that says a lot in my eyes.

However, I trust my life to a Springfield XD, as long as its reliable and you're accurate with it, thats the best for you.

soupah
January 2, 2009, 04:08 AM
A Makarov, of course.

BHP FAN
January 2, 2009, 06:27 AM
The MAK is a great choice,for sheer dependability,but the heel type mag release is a drag.A PA63 corrects that problem,but still is a little light in the stopping power dept...either one would be great for carry,but the OP stated [I]combat so I'm torn.The capacity of the BHP,or the power of the good ol' G.I. .45 ,or the lazer like flat trajectery of a Tokarev.All three are Browning dirivitive [no matter [I]what the Russians say] so....yeah,I'd go with a Browning design.I'm just not sure which.

Rmac58
January 2, 2009, 06:40 AM
^^ a CZ 82 (9x18 Makarov caliber) has an abidextrious button mag release. The CZ 83's are in .380 caliber.

UnclePete
January 2, 2009, 08:14 AM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/e15-1.jpg

KBintheSLC
January 2, 2009, 05:19 PM
It may not be used very much... but I believe it is the best... G20... I just love the crushing power of the 10mm Auto.
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee213/kirillirik/CIMG0185.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee213/kirillirik/CIMG0189.jpg

golden
January 4, 2009, 07:38 AM
BERETTA 92 & 96
GLOCK 19
H&K P2000
SIG 226

In my use of the above pistols, they were all more reliable than the 1911, weighed less and in the case of the BERETTA and SIG, were more accurate.

Jim

usnavydoc
January 4, 2009, 09:02 AM
In my opinion,

in 9mm - beretta m9
in 40 - sig 226
in 45 - hk 45

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c322/navydoc414/guns/DSC00022.jpg

gglass
January 4, 2009, 10:00 AM
Best non-polymer 1911A1
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/6705/kimbereclipsecustomiiek2.jpg

Best polymer - M&P 45 or M&P 9 (caliber knockdown vs caliber compatibility)
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/8109/mp45yl9.jpg


http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/938/koolaidergh2.jpg

I'm sure that most Glock fanboys think the above image is a compliment.

ericyp
January 4, 2009, 11:05 AM
I think if a lot of gun guys had their way, our military would still be equipped with 1911's and garands.

FoMoGo
January 4, 2009, 11:27 AM
Nah... 1911s and M-14s. :D


Jim

Zathras01
January 4, 2009, 01:52 PM
Colt defender for me..Lightwieght, with the punch and knockdown necessary
when I need it.

Mello
January 4, 2009, 02:39 PM
The problem with the Glock is its trigger pull. It simply can not be made to function as cleanly as a 1911. The Glock's relatively long sloppy trigger pull keeps it from have the same consistency and accuracy that a 1911 can have.

A high capacity 1911 like para-ordinace can match the reliability and number of shots ready in the firearm as compared to a full size Glock.

I have been to Gunsite many times. I shot the 499 course with both the 10mm Glock and the Colt Delta Elite in 10mm. I did better with the Delta Elite. I actually earned the Expert ticket with the Delta Elite which was their highest level of award. I have consistently seen 1911 shooters outshoot Glock, HK, and Baretta shooters. Not always but mostly.

Police departments tend to chose the Glock over the 1911 because they shudder at officers carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. Some see that as too aggressive. Also, it takes a bit more training; and therefore money, to get officers up to the same minimum level of competency with a 1911 because of the thumb safety and grip safety. They have to be taught muscle memory (highly repetitious drills) to place their hand on their weapon so that the grip safety is always disengaged, and also have to be taught to always place their thumb on top of the thumb safety and when to disengage that before shooting. It seems like a small thing but it take lots of repetitions to get it to where it is second nature. Most departments see no upside to spending that money on what they see as extra training.

Admittedly the difference is small between what can be done with a Glock and a 1911 that shoot the same round. Probably most important is the self-confidence that the shooter has in their ability with their chosen firearm (assuming that they are realistic in their self-assessment).

wickedsprint
January 5, 2009, 09:59 PM
If the enemy is far enough away that the extra accuracy afforded by a 1911 would make a difference, you should have been using your rifle.

Rinspeed
January 5, 2009, 10:09 PM
If the enemy is far enough away that the extra accuracy afforded by a 1911 would make a difference, you should have been using your rifle.


If you have a rifle and it's not jammed there's not much reason you should have your pistol out.

Robocop
January 5, 2009, 10:38 PM
1) Glock 22
2) Beretta 96D
3) 1911A1 (tweeked out)

mgregg85
January 5, 2009, 10:57 PM
I'll take an XD45 or an XDm in 9mm.

Pat S
January 7, 2009, 05:00 AM
I'd pick a Glock in a compact or full size gun. I've seen too many 1911s choke(mine being one of them) to trust them for a self defense weapon.

againstthagrane
January 7, 2009, 03:49 PM
glock 17

againstthagrane
January 7, 2009, 03:58 PM
It is a bit disengenuous to say that a double-stack 9mm has more damage potential than a .45 single stack. Add up the actual weight of the bullets (115 gr vs 230 gr) and actual cm3 of tissue damage potential and see if the difference is really that lopsided?

why are you comparing the lightest for caliber rounds (115gr) to the heaviest for caliber rounds (230gr)?

1911 vs glock
glock 17=17x115=1,955gr 1911=8x180=1,440gr

glock 17=17x147=2,499gr 1911=8x230=1,840gr

either way the glock comes out on top as far as "stopping potential"

not that any of what i wrote means anything if you can't hit what you're aiming at.

againstthagrane
January 7, 2009, 04:01 PM
I also believe the 9mm to be 'good enough' in the man-stopping department when using premuim defensive hollow-points. BUT REMEMBER, we are still pretending to follow the Hague Accords (which we never actually signed) which means that when our soldiers carry a double-stack anything in 9mm, it will be loaded with 115 gr fmj. At least if it were a .45, 230 gr hardball is a well-proven manstopper. And yes, while I prefer 1911s, I would obviously take another good .45, such as a USP, a Glock 21, etc.

military 9mm is 124 +P+, it's a little different than 115 WWB.

Meeteetse
January 8, 2009, 07:21 PM
Glock 17 or 19
Glock 21sf or 30sf

Clarence
January 10, 2009, 10:37 PM
A good 1911 chambered in .45 ACP is the best combat handgun in use today.

IMO

ERDOC
January 10, 2009, 11:15 PM
I think you would have to define your concept of best.They are too many fine
handguns out there today that would tie in being the best.

Best is in the eyes of the beholder/shooter.What works for one person,may not work for another.

If you had said popular,according to sales figures,I think the answer would be easy to look up!
Doc

The Reverend
January 10, 2009, 11:36 PM
The best handgun for me is the one that gets me to my Remington 870... period.

Dogbite
January 11, 2009, 12:53 AM
I think that if you take a look around the world you will find five basic designs that serve a great portion of the worlds handgun needs and they are:

1. The FN/Browning High Power, still in use just about everywhere there are roads.

2. The Walther P38/P1/P4/P5-Beretta 92/Taurus M92/Vektor Z-88/Giat Pamas G1. Beretta 92s and Walthers crop up in most places the Browning isn't in widespread use.
They all share basic design parameters that make them more similar than you might think.

3.Glock handguns: All calibers, but the nine still reigns supreme in overall numbers.

4. CZ-75/85 and all the clones.
Even the new Russian handgun the 'Grach' and the Romanian service handgun are based on this design.
This handgun is fast catching on as a viable replacement for the Browning High Powers. They are capable of lasting just as long with minimal maintenance.

5. The 1911/1911A1.
Not near as common as they were twenty five years ago, there are still oodles of them from several manufacturers floating around all over the world, from the Americas to coastal Asia and Africa.
The only place these don't seem popular is Europe.
Even the Com-Bloc countries like them and they do show up there from time to time.

The H&K USP may well make this list but it hasn't got there yet, Keep trying Hockler!

I know guys are going to complain that I haven't mentioned the Tokarev or the Makarov or the PP/PPKs or the,,,,whatever.

Those five basic designs listed are the most prevelant COMBAT handguns.

Twenty years ago I could have mentioned but one major combat handgun and it would, of course, be the FN High Power, but the times, they are a changing.
-----------------------------
Excellent response. This gentleman knows what he is talking about.

whited
January 13, 2009, 02:14 PM
"combat" handguns to me =

"military and LE issue" =

"simple, reliable, and affordable" =

Glock 17 or 19

Hk Dan
January 13, 2009, 03:28 PM
<g> The BEST combat handgun? That's the one you have in your hand when the combat starts.


Dan

inSight-NEO
January 13, 2009, 09:38 PM
Id have to go with a Sig (mainly the P220 and P226 variants) or a 1911.

Big Daddy Grim
January 13, 2009, 09:41 PM
out of all my guns my Wilson combat 1911.

Black Dime
January 14, 2009, 09:51 PM
What Hotfuzz said.

Or the one you can shoot reliabily and accurately.

Light carry: Colt Commander

Special purpose: Colt National Match (not a Gold Cup)

Elephants: Ruger Blackhawk Convertible 4 5/8" barrel. Handloads.

k9870
January 14, 2009, 09:54 PM
in counterstreike the deegle 50 ae is good....

afvoo52
January 16, 2009, 08:28 PM
CZ75, one of the best out there that doesn't get the respect it deserves. I have owned at least 100, YES 100 handguns and the CZ's I have owned have never failed to impress me with their performance. Outside of the CZ's the XD's I own have been excellent, most Sigs and HK's I have owned have been excellent. As far as 1911's its all in the gun, I have had many Colts from the eighties and early 90's that were JUNK, as well as Springfield armory. I own 5 early Kimbers that have been great as well as a Taurus 1911 that so far has exceeded all expectations.

The term Combat handgun is somewhat of ones own perception, revolvers can be combat handguns, S/A only can be as well as DA only. To me a combat handgun is one that goes BANG EVERY time and has the right combination of power and ammo to get the job done. Also it has to be the one that fits your hand properly and has sights or sighting system that suit your eyes. My go too gun is a SW99 winter carry using Federal HST 165gr and a Sig P239 or Keltec P11 summer carry using winchester 127gr LEO ammo. The SW99 has had light trigger work and just feels SSOOO natural in my hand, comes up at perfect eye level and has the right sight picture for my eyes. There is no perfect cookie cutter handgun, but they have to start with being reliable and reasonably accurate.

FoMoGo
January 16, 2009, 08:54 PM
The term Combat handgun is somewhat of ones own perception, revolvers can be combat handguns.
VERY true.
I rotate the guns I carry, 3 of them are revolvers, 1 is a 1911.
The revolvers are fixed site .44s and a fixed site .45.
The .44s are 2" and 4" barrels, the .45 is a 4".
The 4" guns are what I would consider combat revolvers.
Simple, basic, no nonsense, large caliber wheel guns.


Jim

boxcarbilly
January 16, 2009, 08:57 PM
I dont have any handguns but I know a guy that wants to sell me a glock 17 for $ 400. Is that worth the money.

JAMES BOND
January 18, 2009, 11:07 PM
Beretta 96 40 Cal.

jimsmith80
January 18, 2009, 11:16 PM
Glock, Hecker & Koch, Sig Sauer, other but those are the three I would pick first. Just Glock & Sig alone have probably 80-90% of the American Police Market. The Secret Service Uses Sig P229's in .357 sig. I could not think of a much better choice. We today are super lucky in that we have a ton of really great, uber reliable handguns with great bullets. We should be to live at a time when it is hard to make a bad choice when buying a new handgun.

stbarsh
January 18, 2009, 11:23 PM
Springfield XD in any caliber

It's a Glock with all the needed improvements.

testosterone
January 19, 2009, 10:20 PM
boxcar,

Assuming it is in good condition sure. New glocks are $499 at the counter around here.

T

Timradcliffe345
January 19, 2009, 10:34 PM
Glock 21SF - the be all and end all of combat handguns.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa165/antonia80/monkey_glock.jpg

Sato Ord
January 19, 2009, 11:00 PM
If you're still alive and the other guy isn't you have a good handgun.

KINGMAX
January 19, 2009, 11:09 PM
Glock 21

sherman123
January 19, 2009, 11:13 PM
All depends on what gun "fits" you best and what you can use most effectively. for me i prefer no external safeties a big reason i love revolvers and glocks. I haven't shot close to enough different handguns to even say what fits me the best but of all the ones I've fired I'd go with my glock 23.

RoboDuck
January 20, 2009, 12:04 AM
It depends on your skill level. A well trained man with a M1911 has the advantage. If you have to ask why you will never know.

Hostile Amish
January 20, 2009, 09:32 AM
Practically, SIG P-226.

Lonestar.45
January 20, 2009, 02:53 PM
Kel-Tec P3AT.

minh
January 21, 2009, 09:30 AM
i <3 my cz 75 sp01

k9870
January 21, 2009, 03:06 PM
sig p220 elite, with 11 rounds of 230grjhp

ChCx2744
April 21, 2009, 01:37 PM
+1 on the Glock

Dan Crocker
April 21, 2009, 03:55 PM
in counterstreike the deegle 50 ae is good....

no, it's da bestest!
I'd still go with the Glock 19.

EHL
April 21, 2009, 04:09 PM
With respect, a revolver is not a viable "combat gun" anymore. It's a great self defense gun, but clearly when we are talking about combat, we we are talking about straight up war time. 100 years ago, revolvers were the norm for war, but were quickly replaced with auto loaders. There are many reasons for this, and I'm sure any 1911 guru could extoll the virtues of a 1911 and why they became the official sidearm of the US military (only to be replaced by another autoloader) and continue to be used by special elite military units and law enforcement agencies. The point being, the revolver is no more a "combat weapon" than a muzzle loader or double barrel shotgun are. They may have been combat weapons centuries ago, but we live in the age of the automatic design for combat scenarios.

My vote goes to the 1911 as the greatest combat handgun, for it's design, ease of use, maintenance, durablity, and stopping power with it's war horse 45acp caliber.

SgtGunner
April 21, 2009, 04:17 PM
M14. Sorry guys but if in combat the LAST thing I want is a handgun, besides if you have to resort to a handgun in combat you are either A.) royally screwed or B.) have grossly mis-planned your mission. Most assuredly both.

SgtGunner
April 21, 2009, 04:19 PM
double tap

mudriver
April 21, 2009, 05:08 PM
I'm assuming the original question meant what is the best military combat handgun. In my opinion, military and police handgun requirements are different.

I carried and used a 1911 in combat and learned 2 things:
1. 1911's are good guns, but not great military guns because:
Carrying locked and cocked weapons can be a challenge for many soldiers,

our 1911's even when well maintained were reliable 95% of the time,

In combat, if you need a pistol you need lots of ammo!

2. The 45 acp fmj is not a death ray.
45 required multiple hits to neutralize the target like a 9mm appears to

45's are challenged when penetrating body armor

After training with some Navy Seals, they suggested I go with a Sig 226 and 25 round mags. They used that setup in combat (not police style situations) and they preferred it at the time.

I'm prepared for 1911 fanboys to start questioning my lineage, etc.

HatFried
April 21, 2009, 05:21 PM
Probably a Sig P226.

If it's good enough for the Canadian Armed forces, it's good enough for me.

ScareyH22A
April 21, 2009, 05:56 PM
^^ lol.

Hk usp.

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