.45 LC--Big Bear Protection?


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Weylan
January 9, 2003, 02:34 PM
Would any of you consider hot .45 Long Colt loads (such as CorBon's .45 LC Magnum +P) adequate for self-defense against a big bear? Do I understand that these loads equal or exceed the .44 magnum in performance? Thanks for your advice.

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Shane
January 9, 2003, 03:03 PM
Yes, the hot .45 LC loads can work very well on black bear (not a great choice on Griz though IMO). The factory hot .45 LC +P loads are usually slightly below the factory hot .44 magnum in power, but one can handload the .45 LC to exceed the .44 magnum in power. Just in my opinion.

jjmorgan64
January 9, 2003, 03:07 PM
Yes, I consider these as adequate as anything out there for self defense, I wouldn't go hunting trouble with one, but surely wouldn't feel under gunned.

I'm asuming you're shooting a ruger, not a colt or clone.

Weylan
January 9, 2003, 03:17 PM
Yes--Ruger Vaquero .45.

Wil Terry
January 9, 2003, 06:23 PM
Than every 44MAG load on the market except for the CORBON, BUFFALO BORE, and GARRETT 44MAG loads. No W-W, R-P, FED, etc etc in 44MAG are even close!!!
And the best part is the 45COLT heavy loads do it all with markedly less pressure, therefore markedly less recoil, than any 44MAG load, plus the 45COLT does it all with a real honest-to-God 45 caliber bullet, not a 43 caliber bullet like a 44MAG uses.
Guys, there ain't no flys in the 45COLT'S ointment at ALL!!

Wildalaska
January 9, 2003, 07:31 PM
Hi we view them as interchangeable (in their hottest loadings) although the Colt has a bit more oomph..

We have evaluated many different types of ammo...currently we stock, sell and reccomend, for "bear Protection" the heavy 45 Colt and 44 Mag loads made by the Hunting Shack...

Hunting Shack (http://www.thehuntingshack.com/)

ACP
January 9, 2003, 07:59 PM
Weylan, I don't want to burst your bubble. The Ruger Vaquero is a fine weapon. But there was a thread on TFL -- I'm sorry, I did a search and can't find it yet -- by a fella who worked for Alaska Fish & Wildlife or some such agency that deals regularly with bears, and he doesn't suggest a single action revolver for bear defense. Said the darn things move so fast and attack so closely that you'll likely get off one shot before a limb is in his mouth, and then it's a matter of muzzle contact distance for a second shot into the beast's head/neck/mouth if you're lucky, have the presence of mind, etc. The writer liked double action revolvers for the second shot under such duress. If I find the link I'll post it here. Anyway, there's another .02.

Weylan
January 9, 2003, 09:02 PM
ACP,

If a single action is discouraged, could a double action .45LC handle the CorBon loads?

Any thoughts on a Glock 10mm for such a purpose?

ACP
January 9, 2003, 09:16 PM
Weylan,

There are others who know more about this than me. From what I have READ, not EXPERIENCED, the older Colts and Smiths are to be avoided. A Colt Anaconda or a modern S&W should be fine with the heavy Cor Bon loads (FYI, Federal makes some Magnum hunting loads, too, with hard cast bullets in .357, .41. and .44).

Here it is the thread I was referring to earlier:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1600&highlight=black+AND+bear

The comment below that mentions the single action is from Keith Rogan. I don't believe the link at the end of his comment is still active. BTW, this is one man's opinion, of course, but he seems pretty informed to me. There are four pages of comments on this thread, if I recall correctly.

:Some of you probably know that I got pretty badly mauled about a year ago. I've thought a lot about bears and guns since then, and talked to a number of other mauling victims, guides and bear biologists here in Alaska.

First, for the lighter side - newbies to Kodiak are always ask about the "best gun for bear defense" and are generally told to pack a .22 hand gun.
When they express disbelief, its explained that the .22 is to "kneecap" whoever they're with because a bear will always take the slowest runner.

As for handguns and bears - theres 200 pound black bears, 500 pound grizzlies and 1500 pound brownies. Whats good "medicine" for one, isn't necessarily a good choice for another.
I live on Kodiak and tend to think in terms of the really big bears and... I've been toting a Marlin 45/70 all summer on my fishing trips. I don't think any handgun is a good first line of defense for the brown bears. Given a choice to ONLY carry a handgun or pepper spray and I think I'd opt for the spray.
Given a choice of longarm, and I'll stick with my 45/70, though a shotgun with slugs/buck would also be a comforting choice.
With grizzlies and black bears I think a handgun might be just the ticket. It leaves your hands free, is portable and is most likely adequate for the job. I would carry a double action revolver. In my mauling and those of several other people I've talked to, things just happened too fast and the attack was too violent to consider a thumb-cocking revolver. You might get a double action into play, a single action, highly doubtful. While down on the ground, I swung my fist at the bears nose and got the big pad of muscle below my thumb swiped off for my trouble. Picture sticking a revolver in his face and asking him to wait while you cock it. It would be found 30 yards away in the brush with your hand still attached.
These things happen so fast that the victims, who often are toting a rifle, never get a shot off. That was certainly the case with me.
Mr. Garrett, your loads have a terrific reputation here in Alaska. When are you going to put out a .45 Colt and a .454 Cassull load?

------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

JShirley
January 9, 2003, 09:46 PM
Oh, Keeeeeiiiith! (He's here.)

Randy Garrett, when I asked him about it 2 years or so ago, told me that he was interested in making a .45 Colt- perhaps even one safe in SAA- but that his moldmaker had gone out of business.

Jim March
January 10, 2003, 02:40 AM
Single Actions can be damned fast if you're willing to master them. The fastest shots out of the holster in the world shoot Vaqueros and Colt SAAs in competition.

The learning curve is longer but if you're willing to face it, you get a lot of speed in return.

LIProgun
January 10, 2003, 10:15 AM
Weylan wrote:If a single action is discouraged, could a double action .45LC handle the CorBon loads?
I have no doubt the Ruger Redhawk can handle these, and any other "heavy" .45 Colt loads.

Dennis Olson
January 10, 2003, 03:51 PM
In the field, I feel undergunned if I don't have AT LEAST a .44 mag on my belt. These days, I carry a .454 Casull.

How bad do you wanna avoid being bear sh*t...?

Weylan
January 11, 2003, 11:40 AM
ACP--my sympathies for your mauling. I read Larry Kaniut's book, "Some Bears Kill," and can only imagine what it is like. Thanks everyone for your thoughts....weylan

NEon
January 12, 2003, 12:31 PM
For Grizz, no. Not even on a good day. This animal will kill you. Maybe the 45-70 revolver made a few years back, but the 45 LC was not made to take up to the pressures needed to kill such an animal. Course do as you wish, as I'm sure others will, but me, on a Grizz, NO!

JShirley
January 13, 2003, 01:52 AM
The .45 Colt can do the same thing the .44 Mag can, but with lower pressure. The Colt Single Action Army was not made to take the pressures we're talking about, but everyone in this thread knows we aren't talking about using the SAA.

The .45 Colt, like the .45-70 was a metallic cartridge originally loaded with black powder. These cartridges can be loaded to potential with modern smokeless powder in strong modern arms.

Neon, we're not really talking about the pressures needed to kill such an animal, are we? For several years, the Brown record was held by a bear killed by a .22 LR fired in self defense, IIRC. Tests done indicate that even a .38 special can penetrate the skull of a grizzly or brown bear. What we're actually talking about is a compromise between a "margin of safety" (power) and controllability.

Lone Star
January 14, 2003, 09:27 AM
In, "Sixguns", Keith tells about a man who used a 7.5-inch bbl. Colt SAA with full power black powder loads (250 grain bullet at about 900 FPS) to kill a grizzly that reared up at him over a dead elk that both parties wanted. He hit it one time at about the butcher's "sticking point" and the bear fell dead.

Another example that he gave involved a bear chasing a man whose friend drew a S&W .455 with handloads, probably about 700 FPS, and killed that bear, also.

A game warden was attacked by a grizzly that had him down and was mauling him a few years ago. He killed it with his service sidearm, a S&W .357. The bullets supposedly weighed 158 grains, but I don't know the make. The incident was witnessed by several people, including the guy who now edits either, "Field & Stream" or, "Outdoor Life"; I forget which. He was then with, "Petersen's Hunting". That event has been written up several times.

Nonetheless, I'd use a S&W M629 with Keith bullets or Remington's 275 grain loads. I have no need for any more powerful handgun. If I thought I needed one, I'd labor under the weight and bulk of a rifle!

Lone Star

Gila Jorge
January 14, 2003, 11:07 AM
Weylan: get back with Terry Murbach on that particular question as he did not address that
merely 45 vs 44 as produced. But I do not think you could run the hotter heavier loads in Smiths.
Maybe the Ruger Redhawk...? Ask Terry he will help you and give you good advice.

Baron Holbach
January 14, 2003, 01:00 PM
Make sure the bullet is heavy grain, hard cast lead with a flat nose.

Baron Holbach
January 14, 2003, 01:05 PM
The double-action Ruger Super Redhawk .454 Casull also takes .45 Long Colt. Such a gun could easily absorb the punishment from hot .45 Long Colt loads.

ACP
January 14, 2003, 02:46 PM
For clarification: that's not my bear mauling story. It was copied from TFL. I've never been attacked by a bear.

robertbank
December 3, 2004, 02:21 AM
Given a choice at the short ranges we are talking about I'll take my 12 Gauge Mossberg with alternating buck and Slugs for all the bears. I also carry a .45acp = six for the bears head - last one for me! I just don't think for griz and up you are going to be able to shoot quick enough with your everyday hand cannon. Lots of power but you must either break a shoulder or snap the spine/brain. You will be dead and half way to heaven before a Grizlie will bleed out - their hearts beat at about once evey 1 1/2 sec. when they are excited! The .45acp with ball or hard cast can be delivered fast and accurately. There is no comparison between the power of a 12 gauge slug and current crop of hand cannons IMHO.

Magnum88C
December 3, 2004, 07:17 AM
Look, what you need is a bullet that will penetrate the thick layers of hard fat, muscle and bone to get to where it needs to be. .45 Colts WILL do that just as well as any magnum with good hardcast bullets. You're not going to want to use cowboy loads by any means, but it doesn't have to be loaded to the gills either.

If you want the best double actions for the job look to Ruger. They make a nice packing stainless 5.5" Redhawk in .45 Colt (don't make the blued model anymore, sadly), or, if you can handle a 7.5" revolver the SuperRedhawk in .454 can fire any and all .45 Colts out there (although if you were carrying that beast, you might as well go for the gusto and pack .454s).

Powderman
December 3, 2004, 07:25 AM
Gents, I think I have the answer. Here is some serious, portable griz medicine:

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/News-11-11-2004B.html

Definitely not comfortable, and most assuredly not a plinking gun.

But when the bear's in the buckwheat, this is what I'd like to have at hand.

Either that, or a custom SW 500 Mag, with a four inch barrel, and a large ported compensator.

Load that thing with 440 grain flatpoints, and I'll dance with a bear--no problem!

Bopleo
December 3, 2004, 11:55 PM
Elmer Kieth said for those who learned how to shoot on single action, then they will shoot none faster.

dmftoy1
December 4, 2004, 05:09 PM
That's why I bought my 4-inch Model 500. Luckily I've been able to avoid the really big grizzlies here in Central Illinois. Never hurts to be prepared though! :) :)

AgentOrange
May 2, 2009, 02:56 PM
My bear revolver is my s&w 500 8" loaded with 700gr t-rex killers, sitting ontop of 25.5gr of lilgun with cci magnum large rifle primers.

There is nothing, and i mean nothing living on earth that can stand up to one single shot from this beast. Best part is that it has a killer brake so if by some chance you do miss, follow-up shots are quick and easy.

COSteve
May 2, 2009, 03:15 PM
Yes--Ruger Vaquero .45.


Is yours a new or old model Vaquero?

My experience is limited to nuclear .45 Colt loads out of a Blackhawk, so I can't tell you for sure, but my understanding is that the New Vaquero is a much smaller frame to get closer to SAA size, and isn't as strong as the old model.

:confused:

saturno_v
May 2, 2009, 04:04 PM
THE CORBON 45COLT HEAVY LOADS HAVE MORE ENERGY

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Than every 44MAG load on the market except for the CORBON, BUFFALO BORE, and GARRETT 44MAG loads. No W-W, R-P, FED, etc etc in 44MAG are even close!!!
And the best part is the 45COLT heavy loads do it all with markedly less pressure, therefore markedly less recoil, than any 44MAG load, plus the 45COLT does it all with a real honest-to-God 45 caliber bullet, not a 43 caliber bullet like a 44MAG uses.
Guys, there ain't no flys in the 45COLT'S ointment at ALL!!

Wil, you are right to a point.

That level of energy for the Corbon 300 gr. 45 Colt +P (1126 ft/lb out of a 7.5" barrel) is perfectly normal for full house 44 Mag loads, within the SAAMI specs for the round.

+P 44 Magnum loads reach much more, up to 1600+ ft/lb.

The "Big 3" factory loads (Winchester, Federal, Remington) 44 Mag are loaded significantly below the original specs....almost some sort of hot 44 Special....IMHO they cannot be considered "real" 44 Magnum loads.

And that 45 Colt+p has little in common with the original 45 LC...it has the same name and dimension but as matter of fact is a totally different cartridge...try to load one of these in an original Colt Frontier....:D:eek:

saturno_v
May 2, 2009, 04:14 PM
For Grizz, no. Not even on a good day.

At the typical engagement distances in a defense situations, even a very stout 357 load with the right bullet will do the job even on a large bear....is all shot placement...hitting the CNS...no caliber, no matter how powerful, not even AgentOrange's super-duper 500 hypermagnum :D:eek: will do the job if you do not hit the CNS in a charge scenario, don't fool yourself.

The 44 Mag with the right bullet has been a proven bear stopper in Alaska....

rcmodel
May 2, 2009, 04:43 PM
The .45 Colt in the original BP factory load (255 @900+) has stopped men, indian ponies, calvary horses, range bulls, and every sort of game animal, including a few bears.

A Colt SAA with a 250 Keith SWC over 9.0 grains of Unique will do the same if you put the bullets where they need to go.

rc

CSA 357
May 2, 2009, 05:31 PM
Can i ask a ? How many people are killed or are hurt by(big bears) i know it does happen, but how often? If i was in a place where griz lived i would want to be packing enough gun to stop one, a charge is a lot differnt from shooting a bear while hunting, when you have time to place your shot, poor shot placement will not stop a small deer from the 45 colt or the 44 mag, im thinking i would want a 375 h&h or a 12 ga with slugs, yes i know this wouldnt be as easy to carry, but shot placement would be quicker, bear can be very hard to stop from what i have read csa

JImbothefiveth
May 2, 2009, 05:38 PM
Any thoughts on a Glock 10mm for such a purpose? If the bear is actually clawing you it might jam when a revolver wouldn't.

Elmer Kieth said for those who learned how to shoot on single action, then they will shoot none faster. Jerry Mckulek uses a double action for some reason. And besides, this isn't about who can shoot faster in a competition. When a bear is mauling you, it's a little different than shooting at a target. And you can always fire a DA in SA.

dunlop
May 2, 2009, 05:42 PM
If i am hiking under 5 miles i will use the .44 eagle.... i was a dumb ass once and went 15 miles with it... ARG it was horrible

Never ever try shooting a bear with a shotgun!!!

Gordon
May 2, 2009, 06:02 PM
.454 Linebaugh conversion, but only carried one trip to Alaska
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/gunsknives0009.jpg

CSA 357
May 2, 2009, 06:20 PM
Dunlop, you dont think a 1 oz 12 ga slug would be a bear stopper? You might be realy supprised! The 12 ga slug has alot more energy than the 45 or 44 csa

saturno_v
May 2, 2009, 07:05 PM
Dunlop, you dont think a 1 oz 12 ga slug would be a bear stopper? You might be realy supprised! The 12 ga slug has alot more energy than the 45 or 44 csa


+1

The Brenneke Black Magic 3" 600 gr. slug is one of the best short range bear stopper out there...it will go from brisket to butt through a big grizzly...it is really terrifying...

Powderman
May 4, 2009, 08:16 AM
Here's my newest prescription for hungry bear...

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc9/jjawa3/042008_13031.jpg

Administer as needed to hungry bear who is intent on contemplating the rich protein content of your body until they just aren't hungry anymore. :evil:

AgentOrange
December 2, 2009, 04:51 PM
45 colt in the hotter ranges is plenty for north american bears. ive hunted bears myself and dropped them with one shot out of my 5 1/2" riger vaquero loaded with 240gr universal clays and 240gr hornady xtp magnum bullets.....nasty combination, and my ruger shoots them in one hole groups at a measured 40 yards all day. i shot a 12" pine tree one day with 255gr hard cast hornady LRNFP bullets over 7.5gr of universal clays with a regular CCI pistol primer and the sucker blew an 8" hole comming out of the other side...

if the 45 colt big enough for (north american) bears?......you bet it is....

Weedy
December 2, 2009, 06:35 PM
I've carried a .45 Colt Bisley Blackhawk with Buffalo Bore loads for bear defense...I think hot .45 loads with hard cast bullets are fine, but Buffalo Bore states clearly NOT to use the +p loads in new model Vaqueros. That probably goes for Cor Bon as well. IF you have a pre-2005 model you're good to go.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=38

Oro
December 2, 2009, 09:59 PM
Wow. Almost seven years. This thread has been necro'd on and off now for seven years. Impressive. At some point, it should just be allowed to die in peace!

Weedy
December 2, 2009, 11:24 PM
Holy cow, I didn't even realize how old this thread was before I posted today...I guess the guy must have a PRE 2005 Vaquero.

Stainz
December 4, 2009, 08:47 AM
When I see bears, I usually have at most my 642 5-shot .38 in my pocket. Of course, I stay on my side of the safety fences.

Stainz

PS Here in the SE, I now carry nothing larger than my 296, a .44 Special. For most of my life, I hiked with a Vic SAK. It's the 2-legged snakes I fear most now.

dogngun
December 4, 2009, 09:42 AM
How big a bear?
If you are in large brown bear territory, I would not rely on anything less than a 12 gauge or a Marlin .45-70.

mark

anadventurer
January 24, 2010, 01:26 PM
I carry hot 10mm. Never anything else. I have carried the super red hawk in the past. The math just does not support the need to carry something bigger with less rounds. And the previous poster is correct, single action pistols in a confrontation with a Brownie will get you killed. My thoughts on the matter for the layperson http://professionaladventurer.com/2009/09/alaska-bear-safety.html and here is some math:
Round (mps) Weight (g) Force (Newtons)
5.728 SS192 594 2.6 1.5
919mm 350 8.5 2.9
.40 Cal 320 10 3.2
10mm (Buffalo) 450 13 5.85
10mm (HP) 298 11.6 3.8
.45 300 12 3.6
.44 Mag 430 20 8

.40 (in 10mm) has a smaller diameter and will offer better penetration even to a round that is 1.5 mm's bigger (like the 45) and remember the faster the round is going after initial penetration, the less crush and tear damage it does (see US Army FM 23-10)

If you have to explain why learning to shoot a single action fast is super awesome you are so off the mark. I propose without fear and with personal experience to back it up that I can out shoot anyone with a large caliber single or double action pistol with my 10mm and that the round will indeed take down any bear at close range. If you live in Alaska, it's a non-argument: 10mm is fine to carry. We see bears all summer long.

joe_security
January 24, 2010, 01:43 PM
Im thinking a 10mm Glock, backed up by my trusty 870 with slugs would be the ticket. If I ever had to go in bear country (and IM not), I would purchase the 10mm Glock. I used the 870 as bear protection when visiting family in north central wisconsin years ago. It was kept handy for the protection of myself and dog.

1911Tuner
January 24, 2010, 01:44 PM
For Southeastern Black Bear? Sure. For big bears...as in Alaskan Brown or Kodiak?
Sure...as long as you remove the front and rear sights, bob the hammer, and polish the gun to a mirror finish so that after you shoot him, it won't be so rough when he takes it from you and sticks it where the sun don't shine.

CSA 357
January 24, 2010, 02:06 PM
For Southeastern Black Bear? Sure. For big bears...as in Alaskan Brown or Kodiak?
Sure...as long as you remove the front and rear sights, bob the hammer, and polish the gun to a mirror finish so that after you shoot him, it won't be so rough when he takes it from you and sticks it where the sun don't shine. ( lol true but still funny!)

jmortimer
January 24, 2010, 02:12 PM
Sorry to carry on with ancient history but the idea of a "pistol" cartridge for serious bear defense is a joke - even with the Buffalo Bore as indicated above in 10 mm - It has about half of the "energy" of a hard cast .44 mag or .45 Colt but the real problem is that the pistol round in question - 180 grain JHP at 1,350 might, possibly, maybe penetrate
18" to 20" probably less if the JHP does its thing and opens up. So you can have 2 or 3 "shallow" holes or one 3 foot plus hole from a "11 mm" hard cast LBT revolver cartridge. I think the bear would prefer the 10 mm pistol to getting smoked with a real outdoor cartridge.

joe_security
January 24, 2010, 03:11 PM
I was talking small bear, ie, Wisconsin. I fully realize the big guys (Kodiak,Alaskan brown) this is rifle country, no doubts. It sounds like anadventurer is living this for real, and is not using JHP ammo in the G20.

Backpacker33
January 24, 2010, 09:26 PM
Some years ago I wanted a .500 Linebaugh and asked Hamilton Bowen about building on a Blackhawk frame. He said the double-actions are stronger than the single actions, excepting such as the Freedom Arms artillery.

John Taffin said the Colt Anaconda .44 would handle any load the Rugers would handle. There was a succession of articles on the .45-Colt Anaconda. Colt allegedly said the gun was not heat treated to the level of the .44, something S&W allegedly said about the 29 .44 vs. the 25 in 45-Colt. I have since read articles by people who claimed to have tested the hardness of both the S&W 29/629 and Colt Anaconda .45-Colt, and found no difference from the .44 models.

After S&W told me their scandium frame 329 will handly any hunting load the 29/629 will handle, I don't worry about stout loads in my 625 Mountain Gun, say at approximately +P levels such as by Corbon. Never have worried about the Anaconda after reading John Taffin's loads for it.

I used to know a retired airline pilot who lived on the Salmon River in Alaska. He took a Mossberg pump with slugs and buckshot. Like someone else on this forum, he said that you either have enough time to get away, or just enough time to decide which part of your anatomy you'll feed to the bear first. He felt he could swing that Mossber, thumb off the safety and start shooting fast enough. The stories he tells of brown bears stalking him curl my hair.:what:
-Backpacker

MCgunner
January 24, 2010, 10:16 PM
Elmer Kieth said for those who learned how to shoot on single action, then they will shoot none faster.

Yup, I can cock the hammer on my Ruger one handed, do it all the time. Of course, I can also walk and chew gum, though I never really liked gum. I do like my Blackhawk, however.

zxcvbob
January 24, 2010, 10:26 PM
If a .44 Magnum is enough gun, then a .45 Colt is enough. (that's a big if) Either one should be able to shoot clean thru a big bear, and a .452 bullet makes a considerably larger hole doing it than a .429".

ahpd1992
January 25, 2010, 12:10 AM
Id go w/ a G20 and MB put a 5 or 6" barrel from Wolf for some extra velocity, but MB Id leave it stock

The G20 is going to be good for everything up to the big guys, and it 14 180gr hardcaster's dont drop one of the big ones, put the last one in your skull

I think practically the G20 gives you more options as an all around pistol v a hand cannon for 1500lb brown's that your prob not gonna see.

I also think a 12ga slug is the best cheapest answer as you can pick up a shotgun for a lot cheaper and use the extra money for ammo and practicing how to avoid bears in the 1st place

Lar1911
July 11, 2010, 09:56 PM
7 years old

akadave
July 11, 2010, 11:12 PM
Ive loaded FA WLFN GC 300 gr lead up to a bit over 1200 FPS in a 5.5 inch Ruger Bisely. PLENTY of bear medicine! Makes a 44 mag look like a pop gun as far as Taylor Knockdown and energy. Plenty safe for the Ruger too...

Really, good Star brass 45LC brass is great for big thumping loads in revolvers than can take it. And that means Ruger. Sorry to offend the Ruger haters but their guns are tough as nails. I have a S&W 45LC MT Gun and would not ever think of shooting heavies in it.

I run 475 gr. WLFN GC's in my .500 Linebaugh to over 1200 FPS which is built on a standard Ruger Bisley. I really think that its a nice sweet spot for big lead velocity. Its probably a bit more than needed even for Kodiak Brown. Heck, a couple of years ago and guy dropped a huge B&C Brown on the Kenai Peninsula in self defense with a 9mm semi but I would rather eat broken glass that shoot a bear with one.

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