[KC]

Since we are on the subject:

"Human history is the story of a race between freedom and innovation, and regulation and bureaucracy. Over time the natural tendency of all states at all times and places is to divert more and more productive output to structure, regulations, regulation enforcement, inspections, reports, all unrelated to production, and all producing a bureaucracy that can't be laid off when the business it is intended to "serve" takes a downturn or is destroyed. "
Possony and Pournelle,
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/view265.html

[rrader]

Socialism, always a toilet.

Fortunately many of the US regulatory agencies are fee based and show a net return to the treasury and expand or contract thier staffing levels based on the health of the US Economy, unlike the governments of the socialist-toilet countries such as France le Toilet.

Conclusion: Socialisim is always a toilet.

[Gordon Fink]

Nice criticism of bureaucracy, but it has nothing to do with socialism directly.

~G. Fink

[Leatherneck]

Gordon nailed it. Perfect description of any bureaucracy, but socialism is its own special kind of evil.

TC
TFL Survivor

[KC]

What is socialism but an extension of a bureacratic order from the public to the private life?

[Orthonym]

Pournelle is one of my favorites since way back when. His web site makes frighteningly good sense and is a definite hazard to anyone trying to cut back on his drinking. I wish more of his books were still in print.

[HBK]

It's amazing some people actually claim to be socialist like there's nothing wrong with it. I was having a discussion with a coworker. She actually said, "You aren't a socialist are you." I was like, "NO!" (Emphatically) She responded, "Well that's me, I'm a socialist." My jaw almost hit the floor. I stammered, "Why are you here?" She was like "what do you mean?" I said the United States was not founded on socialism. Socialism pretty much represents everything the United States stands against. She went on to argue that we should be more socialistic as a country. I reminded her that socialism has been proven to be an extremely ineffective form of government, referring to the old USSR. She said, but it would work here. I told her I couldn't believe that she believed that. We left it at that. I may have mentioned something about moving to Canada.

[OF]

I had the same reaction to someone I was talking to at a party over the 4th of July weekend, but they wouldn't admit their own position. Everything out of his mouth was gov't control of private industry and wealth redistribution, but he wasn't a socialist! He kept denying it.

- Gabe

[cuchulainn]

Darwin and survival of the fittest.

Socialsim is the economic equivalent of a congenital defect -- the three-legged lions are claiming they will suplant the four legged lions and create a leo-utopia where no one will have more legs than they "need." The four legged lions will be around long after they forget there ever were those pesky tripods annoying their ancestors.

[cuchulainn]

but he wasn't a socialist! He kept denying it. American socialists already have perverted and tossed aside one word, liberal, and they're working on another, progressive. You have to wonder at a movement that keeps changing names because its goals sully those names.

To think: Liberal once called to mind Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry to Americans.

[KC]

"To think: Liberal once called to mind Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry to Americans."

Compared to what the reigning paradigm of the day was, they were. The political extremes of today have changed a lot from those of the late 18th century.
What is germain is that we are in the midst of a change to a very different form of tyranny. Rather than rule of a heriditary aristocracy, interested in preserving its power and status and doing so through force of arms, there is the rise of a "politically correct" class of bureaucrat, interested in preserving its power and status (vigorously denying that it is doing any such thing) through increasingly convoluted leagalist controls, reinforced by intrusive police agencies.

[cuchulainn]

Compared to what the reigning paradigm of the day was, they were. When Thomas Jefferson was a liberal, the word liberal meant someone who seeks liberty. Now, in America, it means the opposite: one who seeks government control. The socialists have perverted the word so people think it means the opposite of what it used to mean.

The root is the Latin liber -- free.

It's not that times have changed, but that the word has been perverted. It's like clean being perverted to mean dirty.

[Gordon Fink]

What is socialism but an extension of a bureacratic order from the public to the private life?

In part, this is true. However, the defining feature of socialism is state ownership of the means of production. Bureaucracy is simply a necessary if unfortunate side effect of any large government. By definition, though, socialist states are more totalitarian than capitalist states.

Of course, many people confuse socialism with communism, though communism is the ultimate (but impossible) goal of traditional Marxist socialists. Yes, there are differences between socialism, Marxism, and communism. :D

~G. Fink, social-capitalist libertarian

[DRC]

so·cial·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ssh-lzm)
n.
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

com·mu·nism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kmy-nzm)
n.
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

By definition there seem to be many similarities but the difference is that Socialism is based on Social good of a society and Communism is doing for the betterment of your fellow man which is the basic core meaning. What they mean in government is bupkiss and are nothing more than ideologies the "intellectuals" try to pass off as the truest form of living. What it does in practicle application is makes the masses vulnorable to control from anyone and that control is definitive.

The labels being used have been bastardized in oder to make them sound meaningful in an intellectual light and people that use these labels for themselves have no clue what it actually is or what they're trying to promote. It's sad but those saying they are one or the other are truly sad indeed.

Take care,

DRC

[BigG]

The labels being used have been bastardized ... You can say that again, DRC. Control the language you control the debate. The difference as a practical matter is, as you so eloquently state, bupkiss.

[Standing Wolf]

Socialism is a pseudo-philosophical term for looting.