[Rachen]

Guys, muzzleloading enthusiasts everywhere!
Our sport is being threatened with infringement. Due to a mentally unstable student at a college campus in NYC, anti-gunners, including the NYC police commissioner is starting to target muzzleloaders. THEY WILL BE THE NEXT ITEMS TO BE BANNED AND THE AMERICAN TRADITION OF BLACK POWDER FIREARMS WILL BE THREATENED.

EXTREMEMLY URGENT: SPREAD THIS MESSAGE AMONGST NRA AND NMRA. TRY TO ALERT ALL THE FOLKS BEFORE ANOTHER RESTRICTIVE BILL IS PASSED THROUGH.

I KNEW that the anti-gunners will try to look for the tiniest and lamest excuse to try spreading their pestilence.

[pdowg881]

Details?

[Rachen]

are labeled as "crazies".

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/09/26/2007-09-26_man_with_rifle_nabbed_on_st_johns_univer.html
A description of the case. The rifle was a CVA Wolf 209 Magnum.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/09/28/2007-09-28_no_background_check_at_gun_shop_for_st_j.html
"But crazies, they love 'em [That's us, and the millions of sportsmen who rely on them for hunting, target shooting, and protection of our loved ones.]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/09/29/2007-09-29_st_johns_rifleman_charged_with_gun_posse.html
Police commissioner Kelly turns the incident into opportunity for some anti-gun politics. Here how he talks about how things you can put bullets into should be restricted.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/09/27/2007-09-27_st_johns_suspect_troubled_but_meek_pals_-2.html
Yes this guy is crazy, and he is about to spell doom for an American historic tradition.

There we have it.
And lets not turn a blind eye towards the looming horizon. Muzzleloaders are going to be targeted next, just like "assault" rifles. I am going to the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association and the National Rifle Association with these links right now. Lets all do the same. Send the message far and wide for the sake of preserving our freedom from the vampiric liberals. It is very funny how a harmless and isolated incident like this is calling for more restrictions and bans, while so much assaults, battery, domestic violence, child molestation, elder abuse and drunk driving and homicide with vehicles cases happen in New York City every day, and nobody turns their attention on them.

WELL GUESS WHAT, BY THE TIME A NEW BILL AGAINST MUZZLELOADERS IS PREPARED TO BE PASSED, IT WILL FACE SOLID AND UNITED LEGAL OPPOSITION FROM THE NRA AND ALL OF AMERICA'S GUN OWNERS. THE PROBLEM WITH US GUN OWNERS IS THAT WE ARE TOO SCATTERED AND TOO LOOSELY ORGANIZED. THE NRA IS POWERFUL, BUT WE HAVE TO SHOVEL MORE COAL INTO THEIR STOVE TO KEEP THE FIRES HOT. THE FACT THAT WE ARE ALMOST DISORGANIZED MAKE US A TASTY TARGET FOR LIBERALS.

IN THE 1500s BEFORE THE VARIOUS MANCHU AND MONGOL TRIBES IN NORTHEASTERN CHINA WERE UNITED BY A MAN NAMED NURHACI, THEY WERE ALSO POWERLESS AND THEIR VOICES UNHEARD.

GUN OWNERS UNITE. Thats all I can say right now.

[MASTEROFMALICE]

ONWARD MY MONGOL BRETHREN!!!

IN THE 1500s BEFORE THE VARIOUS MANCHU AND MONGOL TRIBES IN NORTHEASTERN CHINA WERE UNITED BY A MAN NAMED NURHACI, THEY WERE ALSO POWERLESS AND THEIR VOICES UNHEARD.

[Rachen]

today. This is the exact text of the message::)
"Muzzleloading firearms are a national tradition. There are millions of them in current use, yet there are almost no documented cases of criminal usage. Yet we are crying for more restrictions because of an isolated incident. Each day there are so many assaults, robberies and domestic violence, yet nothing is done about them. Gun control does not stop crime, common sense does. We should look to Florida as an example."

Honestly, we need more politicians with common sense.

[4v50 Gary]

This may hurt.

[Rachen]

was not part of the text I sent. That was for the forum.:)

[Picknlittle]

Okay,...some a**hole law enforcement person thinks BP shooters are crazies. I'd say the person is clueless but that's okay too.

I wonder if this guy could be a plant, sacrificed solely to show that BP rifles can make a splash in the news.

Man! I gotta buy more tin foil! :eek: :)

[slzy]

major rodgers,natty bumppo where are you when we need you.

[mike101]

"But crazies - they love 'em."

That's funny. Aside from this story, I've never heard of a single incident ivolving a muzzle loading rifle. Ever.

[alsaqr]

"Accused St. John's gunman Omesh Hiraman only had to hand over cash to buy the muzzle-loading rifle he's accused of using to cause a terror scare on campus."

This is that part that New Yorkers need to be concerned about. Antis will push for state approval to buy a muzzleloader.

[LEE3370]

Howdy Folks,
It is a shame isn't it. Yes, black powder arms will come to total regulation. Why? Because gun owners will not stand together, they won't.
I am talking about gunowners as a group, not any one person.
Smokless shooters think black powder shooters are a thing of the past.
Long distance shooters don't like cowboy shooters.
Cowboy shooters don't get along with those who shoot high cap semi's.
Almost all shooters don't try to understand those who like "assualt weapons".
Me? I shoot blackpowder revolvers but I only use 777 and I get smirked at and looked down on because I don't use "Holy Black".
The lawmakers will take a bite from one group then a bite from another because "if it don't affect what I shoot, I don't care".

Want to know a silly New York state law.
You can buy and own as many blackpowder revolvers as you want with out a permit. BUT get the materials (powder, balls, caps, etc) to shoot it with and then you need a permit to own them. Silly, but true. Just another bite from Freedom.

[alucard0822]

That's funny. Aside from this story, I've never heard of a single incident ivolving a muzzle loading rifle. Ever.

About 200+ years ago a bunch of angry colonists from all walks of life grew tired of an opressive government, and decided they would rather form their own government, even decided to draw up a constitution with ammendments limiting the power of their social experiment in order to keep it from becoming the very thing they fought so hard aggainst. Several incidents up to and including a succesful war of independence involved muzzleloaders.


So where are all those antis who keep telling us the 2nd ammendment only protect uninfringed rights to bear muzzleloaders? This is just more divide and conquer tactics the antis have come to rely on. Hopefully by now we would have gotten wise to them, and realized they want to push twards confiscation of ALL weapons, they are just doing it on the installment plan. And once again the tired old formula of rare and notable incident+fear of the ignorant+ agenda of liberal socialists= gun control bill designed to punish all those not related to or responsible for the initial incident

[ArmedBear]

Preface: I don't care what you want to shoot, but can nobody see any sort of relationship between the muzzleloader in question and a push to regulate it as a firearm?

Uh, you buy muzzleloaders that are designed deliberately to replicate the performance of a modern centerfire, because you just want to hunt deer with them and make it as easy as possible. Then you want the law to treat these guns as if they're primitive antiques or replicas?

Can't have your cake and eat it too, I suppose.

Don't get me wrong; I oppose regulation of all firearms in general.

However, a CVA Wolf 209 Magnum has a lot less to do with American "traditions" than a Marlin 336. And you expect the law will treat them legally as if they're Brown Bess muskets? And hunters with traditional muzzleloaders are expected to welcome guys with no interest in muzzleloading to special deer seasons armed with modern rifles?

Every advertisement touts how the newest whiz-bang frontstuffer performs more like the .30-06 the hunter would rather be using, but can't during "primitive" season.

Fish and Game laws came first, with some states now limiting muzzleloader seasons to the sidelock guns for which the seasons were originally intended. Now here come some state firearms laws, maybe

What in God's name did people THINK was going to happen? I mean, seriously?

Here's a little thought exercise: if someone comes up with a bow that fits the letter of Fish and Game law for archery season, but has an effective range of 250 yards on deer and shoots 2" groups, what do you think will happen to laws about archery equipment?

[LEE3370]

Thanks ArmedBear, I missed those.
Traditional muzzleloaders will not stand up with in-line hunters.
Gun hunters can't stand bow hunters.

[ArmedBear]

You missed one:

LEE3370 has no reading comprehension (and apparently doesn't know anything about the effective range of a bow).

Now if you stop, breathe, cut the emotional crap about "standing together" and think this through, maybe you can come up with a reason WHY NY shouldn't regulate a CVA Wolf 209 in the same way as it regulates a NEF Handi-Rifle. Here's a hint: it has to be something other than claiming that the gun in question is a firearm of historic interest.

If you can, maybe you can convince some people, maybe even people in state government. The same stupid state government that mandates slug guns for deer hunting, and other such utter idiocy.

If you can't think of any reasons, your bluster is a waste of energy.

And since you didn't read what I wrote before: I oppose ALL firearms regulation. I am NOT arguing FOR it. I'm just amazed at how a lot of people don't make any logical connections, but expect to gain something in this battle for our rights.

[AntiqueCollector]

The federal law states guns not using fixed ammunition (that is, a cartridge that contains the powder, bullet and primer all in one) are "antiques" and not firearms (there are other exemptions too, like pre-1899, guns using obsolete ammo not commercially available, etc.) but there it is, the definition that makes an inline an "antique" just like a sidelock. State law may and does vary on the "antique" issue. Now, in 1968, when this law was written, these inlines weren't available, but the definition still applies, and I see no reason why an inline should be regulated and a sidelock not, they aren't much different in use anyways. The antis have wanted to regulate all guns for years, make all guns go through checks, registrations, etc., including "antiques" and now they're going to try to use this as their reason for pushing for regulation. I truly hope this one silly incident does not bring that about but I suspect there will be much opposition to any change in this exemption, anything that threatens the "antique" exemption in the law will face much opposition...

[O.S.O.K.]

and facing the threat and actuality of banning this kind of firearm, that kind of firearm, this kind of ammunition, etc., etc., and not a damned thing about controlling the evil that is the real cause of the violence.

They aren't concerned one whit about curbing violence - they want total control and with the 2nd Amendment in partial force, they can't be assured of it. "They" are the socialists - the one-worlders, etc. - not restricted to dumicraps either.

Call it paranoid and come up with another excuse or hope why they won't actually follow through with this ban. Go ahead. Just be sure to ignore history and current trends.

It's getting very near the time where we all need to adopt the New Hampshire state motto "live free or die".

That'll be our only decision if we can't unite and act - 90+ million gun owners in this country and we can't get a few hundered people out to protest. Pathetic.

[K.A.T.]

I think its coming, buying a muzzleloader will be the same as any other firearm.With the new in-lines that can use a centerfire barrell,this door has been opened,it is just a matter of the anti-gunners walking thru it.

I'm an NRA member,deer hunter,shoot and build muzzleloading rifles,shoot cap and ball pistols and I don't want any more restrictions on firearms.What if a criminal gets out of prison and buys a 1860 Army,shoots you with it and drives off with your truck and your wife,I don't like the sound of that either.

We all had better stand together,regardless of what kind of firearm we enjoy shooting.I think any gun owner should at least be a member of the NRA.

[arcticap]

This has nothing to do with inlines. There have been plenty of crimes committed with cap & ball revolvers and they basically have an inline design.
Inline designs have some history, there's even been a historical inline flintlock design. So bringing up the issue of inlines versus traditional is just a red herring, unless some politician or state agency wants to promote it.
It's mostly a hunting based issue, and it can be made into an issue of state regulation, but it's certainly not a federal issue yet. Many states already regulate loaded cap & ball revolvers whether they are traditional reproductions or not, and black powder too.
It only takes a barrel and a fuse to shoot a projectile, so states are going to regulate away if they want, and it's our duty to defend against it, not point fingers at each other. It's just gun politics as usual.

[ArmedBear]

Nobody's pointing any fingers. That was not the point.

The point is that, politically, the strategy used to exempt muzzleloaders from the GCA was that these guns were utterly obsolete antiques, or replicas thereof, of interest to people who wanted to try their hands at craftsmanship, reenactment, and historical shooting sports.

Politically, this strategy doesn't hold much water when people can hold up a cheap plastic-stock "modern muzzleloader" sold in a big blister pack with bullets, caps and instructions.

In order to "stand together" and all that stuff, we will have to think this through. The argument against regulation will have to be different from, "Hey, it's a gun from 1785 that requires a lot of time and a fair amount of skill even to load it for one shot."

Of course the anti-gunners want to ban everything including rubber bands. But looking beyond that, it DOES have something to do with in-lines. That's not pointing fingers; however, I still ask the question, "What did people think would happen?"

While happily buying in-lines mail-order, we should have been thinking about what we would do when this came up. And we need to think about it now.

(I shudder to think about it, but the VT killer could have used muzzleloaders, because when a crowd of adults doesn't even attempt to resist being shot in cold blood, a psycho has plenty of time to reload. But that's a whole other problem.)

[LEE3370]

ArmedBear,
I didn't mean to make you mad at me. I was just trying to make a point and that being WE as a group (gun owners) don't stand together. I also don't believe in all the regulation. No, I don't know the first thing about a bow, but I would stand with the bowhunters against regulations.
I AM very sorry,
Lee

[arcticap]

However, a CVA Wolf 209 Magnum has a lot less to do with American "traditions" than a Marlin 336.

Sorry, I don't agree and neither does the NRA, the NMLRA, the Federal Government, most states and most American hunters.
If someone doesn't believe that a CVA Wolf 209 Magnum has more in common with the black powder tradition that a Marlin 336 centerfire rifle, then maybe they are just too biased and could use a lesson about firearm technology.

[Millwright]

One question. I saw the story when it broke. I didn't read a damn thing about the perp having a "possibles bag" filled with the neccessities to make that front stuffer work......let alone the skills/knowledge to accomplish same....

There may be a "plus" side to all this hoplophobic BS, BTW. Given the average American contempt for authority and rules, combined with his native inventiveness, increased regs are inevitably going to result in the growth in the numbers of 'basement specials'. Its also possible some, or several, inventors toiling away will create a new arm using commonly available materials as propellants......or electricity...... >MW

[Fisherman_48768]

About 200+ years ago a bunch of angry colonists from all walks of life grew tired of an opressive government, and decided they would rather form their own government, even decided to draw up a constitution with ammendments limiting the power of their social experiment in order to keep it from becoming the very thing they fought so hard aggainst. Several incidents up to and including a succesful war of independence involved muzzleloaders.
Truly the first example of terrorist and those dastardly assault muskets. Heaven forbid we again allow the ownership of such deadly weapons that they can over throw tyrants and oppressive monarchs'. Such a deadly rate of fire that a trained soldier could get off 3 rounds per minute and the untrained frontiersmen with their rifles one or two well aimed shots per minute. :neener:

[Omnivore]

There is an official definition of a firearm, for the purposes of restriction, and it involves the use of "fixed ammunition".

The fancy 209 primed jobs are a perfect example of form following restriction. You set up the rules and definitions, and people will inevitably come up with the best performing, most desirable designs that still fall within a certain legal description.

If a front stuffer using loose powder or pellets is not a "firearm" it is not a firearm. That's the way the fed rules were set up. That doesn't mean its less deadly it only means there are less restrictions. Its a mistake to try applying logic to it, since there is no logic to gun restrictions in the first place (if only law abiding citizens obey them...).

Why shouldn't they be further restricted? Because A. Restrictions are dumb and anti-Constitutional in the first place, and B. Because even the gun grabbers and the gun police (ATF) agreed at one point that these are not "firearms".

Now, hunting restrictions are yet another subject. Here in Idaho our CVA 209 rifle is illegal for hunting. They've gone to strictly side locks and either flint, percussion cap or musket cap, with no sabots or jacketed bullets, and no propellant pellets-- loose powder only (black or BP substitute) and no glass-- fire sights or iron sights only. I don't think the manufacturers have caught on to this yet, since they are still pushing only the super-duper, scoped, recoil-controlled, 209 fired in-lines and ultra amazing jacketed sabots. Even the local retailers are showing few signs of having understood the new muzzle loader hunting laws.

[mykeal]

I don't think the manufacturers have caught on to this yet, since they are still pushing only the super-duper, scoped, recoil-controlled, 209 fired in-lines and ultra amazing jacketed sabots. Even the local retailers are showing few signs of having understood the new muzzle loader hunting laws.

They "haven't caught on yet" because Idaho isn't the only place they market their guns. There are more states that allow in-lines during the muzzleloader or "primitive" season than states that do not. In addition, the in-lines are legal (in all states, as far as I know) during the regular firearms season.

The in-line manufacturers are not going to stop making and marketing those guns based on a few states legislating against them for a short season. They may lose that market but it's not a very large one. Yet.

And there are plenty of high quality sidelocks that meet the Idaho regulations. That market is well populated with good hardware, so quitting the in-line market for the more traditional gun designs is not a good business decision. The competition is very competent and it's not your core business - takes a lot more than a few small markets drying up to change your business model in that environment.

[shooterIII]

This just reminds me of this little saying:

First they came for the people with Assault Rifles,
and I did not speak out because I did not own an Assault Rifle.
Then they came for the people with .50 caliber Rifles
and I did not speak out because I did not own a .50 caliber Rifle.
Then they came for the people with Pistols,
and I did not speak out because I did not own a Pistol.
Then they came for my Black Powder Rifle
and there was no one left to speak out for me.