[willbrink]

Had one of those days at IDPA…had an odd jam I have not seen or had before. My always reliable SnW 1911 had this interesting jam happen on the last rnd of a mag. Is this particular malfunction reflective of anything in particular I can change or fix? Didn’t do it for the rest of the match BTW. This 1911 does not have a terribly high rind count on it per se either, certainly under 10k.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/DSC01195.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/DSC01194.jpg

[1911Tuner]

Extractor

[rcmodel]

It is also possible it short-stroked for some reason (dry or really dirty?) and didn't come open far enough to hit the ejector hard enough.

SO, it just tried to put the case back where it got it.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[1911Tuner]

It's the extractor.

[olyeller]

I JUST took off the extractor off of my SW1911 after maybe 15-20k rounds of lead reloads. I though My using high pressure break cleaner during all my cleanings that I was keeping the cutout behid the extractor clean.
I wasnt there was a 1.5mm thick layer of crud that I peeled out in one piece. That could certainly be the issue with yours.

[JoeHatley]

What ammo and recoil spring?

Joe

[1911Tuner]

It's the extractor...

[esheato]

I have nothing worthwhile to add...I just had to say that I find this thread funny

Ed

[Heavy Metal Hero]

I am going out on a limb on this....

It's the extractor.

[Jim K]

I wonder about the ammo. Since you shoot a lot, would I be correct in thinking you reload? That pic shows the signs of a low powder charge. The extractor pulled the case out, but the slide did not recoil far enough for the case to hit the extractor or for the magazine to activate the slide stop. So the slide just went forward again, trapping the unejected case.

Another possible cause is an extra heavy recoil spring, one not suited to the load being used.

Jim

[1911Tuner]

It's the extractor.

Here's how it does it with an internal. External would have to do the same thing, but not by way of the same problem.

Tension is strong. Hook doesn't slip off the rim while extracting, but doesn't place side pressure on the case rim. Internal extractor "clocks" slightly and drops the case off the breechface. Since it's the very last round, thre's no upcoming round in the magazine to support it...so it falls a little.
The empty case is actually stuffed part-way back into the magazine...depresses the follower, and prevents the slidestop from locking the slide. Slide tries to stuff the empty case back into the chamber...but the case is in the magazine at an angle...probably about 30 degrees or so. Case mouth hits the barrel hood. Crunch.

Trust me. It's the extractor.

[adweisbe]

It's the extractor. I think all S&W 1911s start doing this eventually. Certainly all the decent round count examples I have seen do. The extractor is .125 high instead of .175 high like regular 1911 extractor (I measured a Caspian internal). It is also located at the firing pin while a regular 1911 extractor is slightly lower. Welcome to my personal hell.

When the barrel links down it takes the empty case with it and the extractor must be able to retain the case when the case has slid down the breechface a bit. In a best case S&W 1911 it just BARELY manages to do this. As the lower corner of the extractor hooks wears it eventually is no longer able to maintain control of the case. Sometimes the head of the case will hit the feed lips of the magazines and start to tumble/tip so the mouth of the case is caught by the front of the ejection port and crushed in the feed lips of the magazine. Tuners description is spot on. Jim Keenan's description is another variation on the theme. It doesn't always get jammed in the feed lips of the magazine and is crushed on the way forward instead of on the way back.

There are two solutions. Replace the extractor so you have a fresh hook to work with. Or take out your existing extractor and file the positioning pad a bit. More is not betterer in this case because the more material you remove the farther the extractor can pivot in. The farther the extractor pivots in then the farther the cartridge must push it out of the way during feeding. You can also replace the extractor and file the positioning pad a smidgen for good luck but again everything you take there comes at the cost of inferior feeding.

To get the extractor out you need to use a steel punch. A brass punch is not strong enough. It would be best to buy two or three steel punches because they will bend before the pin is unfrozen. I used a 8 oz nylon/brass hammer. When a punch bends you need to stop using it. Your strikes won't work with a bent punch because the force is not directed straight down into the pin, it skitters at an angle. You can take a bent punch and cut it shorter with a dremel until it is straightish and then use it as a starter punch. Drive the pin out from the top and make sure to reposition the punch after every strike.

[1911Tuner]

Yep. Extractor. Used to see it a lot back in the 80s on the old Thompson Auto Ordnance pistols when about every other slide had the channel bored too far to the right. The edge of the firing pin stop was usually didn't get within a 16th inch of the extractor slot and the extractors clocked like a sweep second hand on a Timex. They'll do some strange things, lemme tell ya.

And for 185 bucks out the door for a nice-lookin' parkerized model...they sold like sno-cones in Dante's Inferno...so, like I said...I used to see a lot of'em that did the very same thing.

[JoeHatley]

If the problem is the extractor, why did it only happen to one round and then not re-occur?

I'm thinking ammo, gun cleanliness, or a shooter with a loose/tired grip at the end of a string of fire.

Joe

[HammerBite]

I'm thinking ammo, gun cleanliness, or a shooter with a loose/tired grip at the end of a string of fire.
I would imagine that any one of these could exacerbate an existing problem -- the extractor. The root of the problem is that the extractor can twist. It isn't supposed to be able to do that. Fix it.

[1911Tuner]

If the problem is the extractor, why did it only happen to one round and then not re-occur?

Because the extractor can clock in both directions. The next round in may straighten it up, and it may stay that way for a while...then clock again. The crunched case jam almost always occurs on the last round...almost without exception.

[average_shooter]

Okay, I've had the exact same problem and was thinking of posting about it, then I saw this thread.

Mine, however, is with an internal extractor Springfield.

Any suggestions for a good extractor that will fix the problem?
Or can I just try to tune up the stock one?

[BBBBill]

... I've had the exact same problem ...
Mine..is with an internal extractor ..

Any suggestions for a good extractor that will fix the problem?
Or can I just try to tune up the stock one?


If clocking is the problem, you will need an oversize firing pin stop fitted to your slide and extractor.

[1911Tuner]

Mine, however, is with an internal extractor Springfield.


Yours is...as BBBBill noted...actually clocking. The internal extractor that drops a case is toeing the line, and all it takes to drop one is a rim diameter that's a little on the small side...but it'll get worse as the spring starts to weaken.

An oversized stop will very likely cure it.

[JoeHatley]

If the 2nd picture is intended to represent the jam, then it appears the extractor did it's job. The case was pulled out of the chamber.

It appears the slide did not travel all the way back. It was the last round in the mag, and the slide would have locked back, not traveled forward with the case still being held by the extractor to slam the case mouth into the barrel hood.

I still say something slowed and or caused the slide to short stroke.

Possibly a high thumb dragging on the slide.

Maybe...

Joe

[1911Tuner]

It's the extractor...

[adweisbe]

The extractor has to do more then just get the empty case out of the chamber. It also has to retain the empty case against the breechface until it reaches the ejector. If it did not then the empty case would fall onto the magazine and maybe slide along until it reaches the ejector (GI feed lips make this more likely, wadcutter lips make this less likely) or maybe flip about and do god knows what but it certainly ain't ejection perfection.

[wally]

I'd concur with the extractor, unless he was using a CMC/Devel/ShootingStar 8-round flush fit magazine. I see this occasionally on the last round with them. Which is why If I was carrying a spare mag the one in the gun would be a 7-rounder and the 8-rounder would be the spare -- a jam on the last shot doesn't matter if it was the last round you have to shoot :)

--wally.

[230RN]

Might not be the extractor.

I had a commercial 1911 function normally all day long --about 50 rd --without the hook on the extractor.

I was just plinkin' up on the Grasslands --rocks, cowpies, whatnot. I practiced with five rd in mag to slide lock, slam in another 5-rd mag, continue.

Did not discover the broken extractor until I got back to my truck, popped the loaded mag out, racked the slide a couple of times to clear the chamber, attempted to dry fire it at a fence post to decock it.

I remember thinking, "That's funny, I thought I had a round in the cham BANG!"

I know the extractor had been broken all that day because I found the extractor tip on the workbench the following day and the gun had not even been in the garage since I got back from the Grasslands.

Apparently residual pressure blew the empties out all day long.

My vote is for a low pressure round which just happened to be the last one. One in seven chance, after all. I've won bets on those odds when I was young and foolish.

As opposed to nowadays, when I am old and foolish and still bet on long odds once in a while.

[1911Tuner]

I had a commercial 1911 function normally all day long --about 50 rd --without the hook on the extractor.

Some of'em'll do that. I've got a few of'em.

...but this one is the extractor. I've only seen/corrected the very same crunch/jam in about...ohhhh...a couple dozen guns or so.

[Old Fuff]

I think willbrink should send his pistol back to Smith & Wesson (they'll pay the shipping costs), so that it can be fixed - most likely it will come back with a new extractor... :neener:

As a rule of thumb, external extractors have not always worked out well in the 1911 platform, Kimber being a prize example. Browning started out with one, but ended up with the internal design - partly because he wanted to be able to remove it for replacement, adjustment or cleaing without tools. Smith & Wesson used an external extractor because it was easier and less expensive for them to make. What's good for the manufacturer is not always so for the user.

We can safely ignore Tuner because he doesn't know anything... :scrutiny: :rolleyes:

[230RN]

1911 tuner said,

Extractor

It's the extractor.

It's the extractor...

It's the extractor.

Trust me. It's the extractor.

Yep. Extractor.

It's the extractor...

...but this one is the extractor.



Oh.

I get it now.

It's the extractor. :)

EDIT: But check the bore anyhow, JIC, as one should with any malfunction. Sealed breech guns Usually blow the bullet out with a weak load, but not necessarily.

But it's the extractor.

[1911Tuner]

Yep. Extractor.

[JoeHatley]

Sorry guys. I'm not buying it. The extractor pivot pin hole whould have to be so "hogged" out to allow clocking of that external extractor, that it could hardly stay in the gun. The owner would have noticed how loose it was.

It's probably because I have the same gun, and know how tightly that extractor is installed, that makes skeptical.

How does that old saying go? "When you only have a hammer, every problem looks like nail."

Joe

[1911Tuner]

(Joe)Sorry guys. I'm not buying it

Here's a HUUUGE clew, Joe...

(willbrink)My always reliable SnW 1911 had this interesting jam happen on the last rnd of a mag.

This problem almost always happens on the last round. The quick-fix/Band-aid method is to use a magazine follower with a rounded top so the case can't drop off the breechface. The right way to correct it is to fix the extractor.

That may not happen with your gun...but that's what's wrong with Will's.

[1911Tuner]

Joe...It's the extractor. ;)