Why not 11mm? or 12mm?


PDA






MPanova
October 3, 2007, 07:13 AM
They make a lot of hand gun rounds close to the same size as the 9mm, the 10mm is pretty much the same size as the 40S&W so why not take it a step or 2 further with a 11mm which would be .43 and close to a 45acp or even a 12mm which would be .47 and just in-between 45acp and .50cal. Just curious and board at work. :D

If you enjoyed reading about "Why not 11mm? or 12mm?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
LSCurrier
October 3, 2007, 08:12 AM
It seems to me that there are enough popular existing calibers close to the ones you suggest to make it worthwhile to make the investment risk.

.45ACP is my choice - though I do own 9mm and .357 Magnum as well. .45ACP 230grain HP is pretty hard to beat - though it can be shown the .357 Magnum has a long track record of being as good or better.

Luke

MPanova
October 3, 2007, 08:38 AM
I guess I was wondering more about why in the past was it never developed. We have seen a few come out a few years back like the 357sig and 45gap that seem to stick aorund. I would think a 12mm the same width as a .45acp would be a great seller. I think a 12mm 265gr JHP that traveled 950fps would have potential :D Ruger would be a great company to put this out too, and on there P90 platform

Kimber1911_06238
October 3, 2007, 08:39 AM
why not 20 mm?

AntiqueCollector
October 3, 2007, 08:43 AM
There were 11, 12 and even 15 mm (and maybe bigger but I haven't seen bigger) in the past as pinfire cartridges. But pinfire is almost dead now obviously. I'm actually surprised myself no one created centerfire cartridges in these sizes...

esq_stu
October 3, 2007, 08:50 AM
It takes big risks to begin manufacturing a new caliber before there's a clear demand or market for it. .357 SIG has caught on with some law enforcement; .45 GAP has not taken off big-time. 6.8 SPC?

You not only must make the ammo on spec, you need to get one or more gun makers to tool up, build and market new guns in your caliber. Sell it to military or law enforcement to get critical mass and it might work. But how often do they ask for a new caliber?

papajack
October 3, 2007, 09:11 AM
i seem to remember hearing that the bigger the caliber, the slower the bullet. 9mm has armor piercing abilities while .45 (about 11mm) does not.

Jim Watson
October 3, 2007, 09:21 AM
Because there is no need to add calibers just to make the numbers come out even in French measurements. If you want an 11mm, buy a .44. If you want a 12mm, buy a .45 or .50. For Heaven's sake, MPanova, you are in Texas, you don't need millimeters.

unspellable
October 3, 2007, 09:29 AM
Pewrsonally, I am of the opinion we need a 31-30 to fill the performance gap between the 30-30 and the 32 Special.

Walkalong
October 3, 2007, 10:06 AM
I think Glock should come out with a .477 GAP. :evil:

warriorsociologist
October 3, 2007, 10:23 AM
My favorite is the 10.4mm (.41 Mag)...followed closely by the .91mm (.38/.357 Mag.).

Naming conventions (like naming the ".43 mag" THE .44 MAGNUM probably because the latter sounded better to some marketing guy). The choice between an inch-based or a MM based system is semantics when on the drawing board. The .40 S&W / 10mm is a good example. The 10mm was first, but when it was decided to releae & market a reduced & shortened round based on it, someone at S&W probably thought that ".40 S&W" would sell better (and give them credit better) than "10mm Special."

my .02

Onmilo
October 3, 2007, 10:30 AM
11.25mm sounds goofy, that's why .45 is the more popular moniker.

Now the Desert Eagle 12.7mm Punisher sounds better than the Desert Eagle .50 Action Express to me, but that's just me,,,,,,

Jim Watson
October 3, 2007, 10:38 AM
Pewrsonally, I am of the opinion we need a 31-30 to fill the performance gap between the 30-30 and the 32 Special.

Winchester prototyped a .31 caliber, I have a picture of the 1886 somewhere. But it was not to "fill the gap", it was to provide a step up from .30 WCF. I think it was before they brought out the .33 but am not sure.

Zundfolge
October 3, 2007, 11:26 AM
IIRC, another name for .45acp is 11mm M40.

I also seem to remember some old Swedish revolver chambered in 11x17, and a Norwegian pistol in 11.25 (which was .45acp).

the pistolero
October 3, 2007, 11:53 AM
I can't speak to the way it used to be, but as far as today goes, I've heard people say modern bullet technology has shrunk the performance gap between, say, 9mm and .45 (light & fast vs. heavy & slow). And if you want a little bit more of both weight and speed, the .40S&W and the 10mm would cover that as well. (My personal favorite is the 10mm.) But all that was more or less to say that I think lscurrier was right. All the existing pistol calibers are just fine; there's really no need for any more. I think a better question might be, why clutter the sidearm landscape with any more calibers? Just for one example, couldn't the 10mm adequately cover any task that would call for something like a .357Sig?

Geronimo45
October 3, 2007, 12:12 PM
'Cause ammo is pricey enough already without going to a higher priced, hard-to-get cartridge, I guess.

I am surprised nobody's made any handgun millimeter-magnums (does S&W have the copyright/trademark on the 'Magnum' label?). Still think it would be a good idea to take the 7.62x25mm Tokarev cartridge, load it at 1500 FPS, and call it the 8mm Magnum - and chamber it in a new pistol of some sort.

elric
October 3, 2007, 01:35 PM
I am surprised nobody's made any handgun millimeter-magnums (does S&W have the copyright/trademark on the 'Magnum' label?). Still think it would be a good idea to take the 7.62x25mm Tokarev cartridge, load it at 1500 FPS, and call it the 8mm Magnum - and chamber it in a new pistol of some sort.

They have, the 9mm Winchester Magnum and the 10mm magnum. They never really caught on, though. They aren't toatlly dead, you can get new brass from starline:

http://www.starlinebrass.com/pricelist.html

eta: This article makes it sound like the 9mm Win Mag is about the kind of performance you were looking for:

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt9mag.htm

Majic
October 3, 2007, 01:44 PM
i seem to remember hearing that the bigger the caliber, the slower the bullet.
I guess you haven't heard of the .454, .460, and the .500. :D

CWL
October 3, 2007, 02:03 PM
First question you need to ask is "Why?" Is there a need by anyone or anything to add another caliber?

Next question is "Who?" What company will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars developing a cartridge & gun, then spend a few hundred thousand more to create tooling & dies. Then spend several hundred thousand more on marketing. This will cost millions before the first bullet is cast & gun manufactured.

Then ask "How Many? How many guns do you think will actually sell?

Smurfslayer
October 3, 2007, 02:07 PM
anyone here know the metric bore diameter required for a hockey puck?:evil:

TallPine
October 3, 2007, 02:49 PM
Lots easier to develop a new revolver caliber than an new semi-auto caliber. ;)

jefnvk
October 3, 2007, 03:22 PM
.91mm

I do believe that is the mechanical pencil gun :P

'tis always possible for you to design them, if you really can find a use for them.

rcmodel
October 3, 2007, 03:41 PM
Up until about 1960, you couldn't give an American gun buyer anything ending in mm, much less sell them one.

Anything ending in mm was for Furiners, and 9mm ammo was only fit for that German pistol daddy brought home from the War!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Jim K
October 3, 2007, 03:45 PM
Before folks get carried away, under U.S. law any cartridge firearm (except a shotgun) over .50 caliber (12.7mm) is a "destructive device" and subject to registration and tax. So you probably won't be seeing any 40mm derringers this week.

Jim

RevolverMan567
October 3, 2007, 07:35 PM
45 is technically 11.25 mm just ask an argentine systema

AntiqueCollector
October 3, 2007, 08:23 PM
Before folks get carried away, under U.S. law any cartridge firearm (except a shotgun) over .50 caliber (12.7mm) is a "destructive device" and subject to registration and tax. So you probably won't be seeing any 40mm derringers this week.

Not all. There are many guns over .50 caliber that have been designated as not being DD's based on the "sporting purposes" reasoning, they're mostly intended for big game like in Africa and such but available here...I don't see why a handgun (especially a revolver) over .50 caliber couldn't be similarly designated...

Ian
October 3, 2007, 08:43 PM
The .475 Linebaugh and .480 Ruger are 12mm cartridges...

Jim Watson
October 3, 2007, 10:13 PM
I don't see why a handgun (especially a revolver) over .50 caliber couldn't be similarly designated

Because it is a handgun.
Hamilton Bowen has an article in the new American Handgunner about the .577 Ruger he built. Said the feds won't pass it as a sporting gun and it would take a manufacturer's license and $200 destructive device transfer tax for him to build them for sale. Don't know what that means for the status of the one he did build.

wally
October 3, 2007, 10:58 PM
0.451" * 25.4mm/" = 11.4mm So why indeed an 11 or 12mm when we already have the proven .45ACP!

--wally.

MPanova
October 4, 2007, 12:18 PM
why a 357 38 and 9mm? why .40 and 10mm?

sm
October 4, 2007, 12:51 PM
Jim Keenan and Jim Watson posted very good replies as always - but - they forgot one.

Leastwise in my mind anyways...;)

Because some of us OLD folks were publik skooled in the South and never took a shine to Metric Measurements :)

Seriously- I was raised into a work, and Metric is what is used for quite a bit of it.

Imagine me, as a little Southern Brat and hearing: 9mm, 45ACP, 20 gauge, 2.8mm ball burr, #80 drill bit, B&S 24 ga wire gauge, .22 rim-fire, yardstick, fathoms...

"You get to start 1st grade in two more years" - grandma, mentors ...

Nuh-uh, :uhoh: the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and recess sounded pretty good , but my gut said there was going to a lot more Skool and I wanted to hang with mentors and grandma, and shoot my wittle gun, go fishing, and mess with dawgies.

"This gun stuff will get more complicated as time goes on, folks just have to mess with a good thing" - Mentors.

Of Course they were correct...:p

4 years old -
I got a B&S wire gauge in one hand, a 20 gauge shotgun shell in the other, and nowhere did I see how this shell was a 20 gauge.

I just "knew" there was a "Browning gauge". Had to be.

25ACP "converted" to 6.35mm Browning. Okay, the neat Browning, Colt, and Beretta pistols that shot this cute ctg are sitting there on the table, Mentors cleaning, and talking and ..."how come a Beretta, used a Colt ctg,and was all this measured by a "Browning gauge"?

I did a lot of sitting on Mentors laps with a puzzled look and "I think Young'Un got another question, spit it out boy..."
:)

11mm, 12mm? Are you folks nuts? :D

mpmarty
October 4, 2007, 01:04 PM
We have 9mm and 10mm because they were both designed in Europe; the 9 way back when Germans and other nordic types were leaders of the firearms development pack and the 10mm because it was designed specifically for Dornaus and Dixon by Norma Projectilfabrik of Sweden for their Bren Ten and please don't utter 9mm and 10mm in the same breath as though they were somehow similar.:D Some folks drive Ford Pintos and claim they are entirely adequate transportation too.

If you enjoyed reading about "Why not 11mm? or 12mm?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!