Benefits of the revolver


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FerFAL
October 3, 2007, 01:40 PM
Owed this one to BullfrogKen;):
Can you think of any benefits of the revolver, besides the fact that a failure to fire doesn't stop the gun, and that the feeding step isn't part of the firing process?

First of all, revolvers are perfect for teaching a new shooter firearms basics. You load the cylinder, close it, pull the trigger and it goes bang. After that it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that you can cock the hammer ( the one you saw going up when firing DA) with the thumb to fire much more accurate SA shots. In the eyes of the newbie, the revolver is simple, understandable, unlike the auto pistol where they don’t fully understand what’s going on in there.
Of course this simplicity is mostly apparent, nothing simple about a revolver’s clockwork. A person with some basic skills will find it much easier to work on most pistols than with a broken revolver. Fixing autos such as 1911, High Powers and Glocks is just a matter of replacing a spring or part here, cutting off one or two curls of another spring there, filing or bending some other part.
Once the initial steps are taken, most beginners will soon find out that they shoot better with autos ( though there are some exceptions).
This is when the “auto era” beings for the shooter, and it takes some time for him to appreciate some of the revolvers advantages.

1) Yes, ammo doesn’t affect the feeding process one bit, since it uses the mechanical force you apply, not the power generated by the fired round. One dud round is quickly left behind with another trigger pull.

2) You don’t have to worry about feeding reliability as in autos. Some autos ( 1911 and hardball) have a hard time feeding anything that steps aside from the round it was originally intended to feed. Most modern autos feed most popular brands of ammo, but its still something to be concerned about none the less.

3) The basic simplicity of not having levers and safeties to mess around with. New shooters looking for a self defense gun will benefit from this if they have to use the weapon in self defense under stress, where they might forget to turn the safety off, even fire on an empty chamber. That wont happen with a revolver. As long as it’s loaded, it will fire. Experienced shooters also appreciate this feature, which modern autos such as the Glock emulate, but even though they got rid of the safety, the empty chamber possibility is still there if you are not consistent with your gun handling habits and training.

4) Same trigger pull all the time. You don’t have one long first DA pull, and lighter SA follow up shots, which could alter your point shooting accuracy. They are all the same. This is also something modern autos such as the Glock have copied. This point is a bit academic though, when under stress you wont even notice the “long” DA pull, and unlike target practice you are looking to hit your target in the center of it’s chest or head, not mumbling about Ĺ” groups. Still, the advantage is there regarding having the same trigger pull all the time.

5) You don’t have any springs working under high tensions when the gun is not being used. Fully loaded auto pistol magazines that are left sitting there for years may work ok or not ( tough there have been 1911 mags that have been left fully loaded since WWII and still worked perfectly). Check them regularly, buy quality mags and you should have not problem even if you leave it there for a year or two, checking every now and then to make sure it works.
Yet again, it is not something you have to worry about if you have revolver. Just leave it loaded and you know it wont malfunction due to a mag spring loosing strength.
I find this particularly useful for secondary handguns locked at other places around the house. My guns are in my bedroom in the second floor, so I keep a 4” 357 magnum locked in a trunk in the first floor in case I’m in the lower floor and I don’t have time, or hear strange noises up stairs.

6) From a logistic point of view, loosing/braking your auto’s magazine turns your pistol into a pitiful single shot. This will never happen with a revolver.

7) The utter simplicity of a revolver’s handling is also useful in case you have to arm someone else during an emergency. As long as the person knows the basic safety rules ( Treat the gun as if loaded, finger off the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot, NEVER aim it at anything you are not willing to destroy) you can leave a person with a revolver, knowing that there no safety, empty chamber or FTF that could show up.
8) In the snubby category revolvers offer reliability, excellent size/power ratio as well as the no frills operation typical of all revolvers.
There are small pocket out pistols out there, 380 ACP and 9mm loaded with premium ammo will work just a well, but for pocket carry it’s hard to beat the snubby.
I like them particularly as back up guns, but if your live in a rather safe place where there’s no serious criminal activity, no history of multiple attackers as in organized professional criminals or gang activity, then the snubby revolver might be a good compromise for your defensive needs as long as you understand it’s limitations.

9) Guns are not only intended for self defense, as a hunting /trail gun, it’s very hard to beat as long as you don’t have to worry much about 2 legged vermin.
357 and 44 magnum revolvers, just to name the most popular calibers, can be loaded with a plethora of bullet weights and shapes for the most different needs, even load it with CCI shotshells for snakes ( there’s CCI shot for autos to, but don’t expect it to cycle the slide)

10) Yes, even if you don’t like admitting it there’s that nostalgia revolvers have. Old revolvers are simply cool in my book. Those older Smiths and Colts, not only work as a clock but also have a history behind them. True works of art.

FerFAL

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tinygnat219
October 3, 2007, 03:32 PM
Still at most only 5-6 shots. Give me my 17 every time

AntiqueCollector
October 3, 2007, 03:36 PM
I can reload my topbreaks almost as quick as most can reload their semi-autos. But nonetheless, I've never felt undergunned with 5 or 6 shots, even from cap and ball revolvers which I carry rather frequently. Most self-defense situations don't need that many shots anyways. I'll take power, simplicity and reliability anyday over a semi-auto's higher capacity...

Mot45acp
October 3, 2007, 04:26 PM
Paragraphs are your friend.
After a $100 3 month "warranty" job from S&W just to make it function, I have reconsidered the reliability factor of a revolver

Fishman777
October 3, 2007, 04:39 PM
I agree with that the revovler is the best home defense handgun.

Don't get me wrong, I do like semis, but I prefer revolvers because of there durability, reliability, accuracy, and flexibility. With one .357 revolver you can shoot ammo that has ballistic overlap with everything from .38 acp all the way up to .41 magnum. It is also a gun that anyone in my house could use if they had to. If you're single, or if your spouse is into guns, semis are a great choice for home defense, but if your spouse isn't a gun person, you are pretty darn selfish if you buy a bunch semi autos and expect them to defend themselves with a semi. If someone is trying to kill or assualt them, are they really going to remember to rack the slide to chamber a round? If the primer doesn't ignite, are they going to remember to rack the slide again? I could go on and on. There is too much to keep track of if you aren't a gun enthusiast. If someone is try to defend themselves, a revolver is the simplest defense.

For all of the reasons listed in this thread, revolvers will always be the cornerstone of my handgun collection.

Fishman777
October 3, 2007, 05:06 PM
You shouldn't write off revolver reliability, but maybe you should reconsider your make and model. Not all designs have to be frequently shipped back to the manufacturer for warranty repairs.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_149_24/ai_65910639

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/448400adaed4f0a82d4961b5b2d91d8b-116.html

http://www.gunweek.com/2004/feature1010.html

Yes, I'm a Ruger guy, but I didn't start off as one. After reading some posts and talking to a few people, I assumed Colts and Smiths were the only revolvers worth buying. Colts and Smiths are better than Rugers in some areas, but certainly not in reliability and durability. If you are looking for a race gun, by all means take a long hard look at the Colts and Smiths, but if you are looking for something that will last and last and last, go with a SA or DA Ruger. You could get a great trigger job on GP100 and still pay less than you would with a Colt or a Smith.

AntiqueCollector
October 3, 2007, 05:09 PM
I've always done my own repairs and gunsmithing on my revolvers.

wheelgunslinger
October 3, 2007, 05:21 PM
If you believe in the "big and fast bullet" theory, then revolvers are king in the great comparison of pistol v wheelgun

If you believe that placement is key: then you shouldn't need to be carrying a bucket of ammo with you to feel safe, unless you live in an area where you'll be taking on street gangs.

If you have non gunnies in your household who have no idea what all the dooflotchies on a pistol do, it's easy for them to put a revolver into service should they need it.

And, revolvers are classy.

Cosmoline
October 3, 2007, 05:22 PM
I'm faster and more accurate with the right wheelgun, and I value speed and accuracy over capacity any day of the week. Also, wheelguns aim more naturally. When I draw and aim my Speed Six is always on target, whereas a semi with its odd architecture can be pointed off to one side or the other.

Muzzy_B
October 3, 2007, 05:27 PM
I agree with that the revovler is the best home defense handgun.

I halfway agree with you. While I'd prefer one of my revolvers over a semi-auto for HD, I'd rather have the 870 12ga in my hands if the SHTF at home.

sm
October 3, 2007, 05:51 PM
Great Input folks!

Accept the fact no firearm is ever big enough, and one will never have too many rounds.
Then do other training and not focus on guns and round count being the answer to every situation.

Revolvers : Self contained. I have never showed up with a Revolver and because I brought the wrong magazines, could not shoot the revolver.
No revolver ammo, yes, wrong mags, no. :)

New Shooters, especially those with kids, often feel safer with a revolver, they can visually inspect, unload, reload, maintain and everything a revolver allows one to do, where a semi-auto does not.

I am NOT going to dismiss, or undermine anyones concerns about Safety.
I will listen, I will educate, and I will share.
Still if a new shooter, feels safer with a revolver, I respect that!

Gun fit is easier to tweak with different stocks/ grips.
Correct basic and fundamentals I also agree are best learned with a revolver.

My take is well known around here.


Great thread topic.


Aside- many dismiss "old stuff" and need being "fast" or "having the quantity".

Nobody ever fussed about a Kitchen Match and Candle when the power goes out...unless they don't have these.

;)

Fishman777
October 3, 2007, 06:02 PM
I just read through this thread and was stunned by my grammatical errors!!

Please excuse my carelessness.

Vern Humphrey
October 3, 2007, 06:02 PM
First of all, I know I'll take flak for saying the revolver is not as reliable as many say it is. Having said that:

1. Revolvers are available in cartridges you don't normally find in automatics -- such as .357 Magnum, .45 Colt and .44 Magnum (yes there are exceptions and some similar cartridges designed for automatics, but in general if you want one of those, go with a revolver.)

2. Revolvers can accept a wider range of loads -- in .357, I can hunt squirrels and rabbits with a powder-puff .38 Special load, and then carry a 125 grain full power load for self defense, or go to a 158 grain or 180 grain bullet for deer.

3. Revolvers don't spit your brass all over the landscape.

4. Revolvers tend to have better out-of-the-box triggers than automatics.

pinkymingeo
October 3, 2007, 06:14 PM
Concerns about round count are silly in my book. In a face-off between a guy with a 17-round 9mm semi and a guy with two rounds of 12ga buckshot in his double, my money's on the shotgun.

Vern Humphrey
October 3, 2007, 06:20 PM
Except that the bucko with the 12 ga double actually has a minimum of 18 pellets at his command -- one more than the guy with the 17-round 9mm Semi.

ronto
October 3, 2007, 06:27 PM
More than one round can be fired from a coat pocket with a spurless revolver...Walking in a dark parking lot with your hand in your coat pocket and on your CCW, BG approaches with bad intentions... Surprise, surprise.
BTW, your coat won't start on fire...It's been proven.

Vern Humphrey
October 3, 2007, 06:32 PM
On the other hand, if you're wearing Thunderwear (tm), you could wind up with an interesting tatoo.

lanternlad1
October 3, 2007, 06:50 PM
Or a higher singing voice...

FLORIDA KEVIN
October 3, 2007, 07:13 PM
I feel that revolvers are better for defense because the manual of arms is simpler ! If you are going to rely on a gun you must be able to have it function reliably! So it works when you are under stress !!

Vern Humphrey
October 3, 2007, 07:26 PM
Well, the revolver manual of arms is simpler until you have to reload. A quick reload under pressure is a rather complicated evolution.

Hawk
October 3, 2007, 07:56 PM
I'm rather new with revolvers. The perspective of a relative noob is that they have some endearing qualities and some not so endearing qualities.

It has been stated by people smarter than I that defensive revolvers should be rendered DAO. The range babes will kick sand in your face if you fire your DA revolver single action. Hence, revolver triggers suck. Some DA triggers suck less than others but next to a well executed 1911 they all suck. I've been working on my double action fu but the results are not encouraging.

When a revolver jams it really jams. Most of mine were purchased used so that skews the results but when an ejector rod backs out you'll learn a whole new vocabulary. They may not jam as often as some semi-autos but they make up for it by doing so in 20 minute stretches.

Some revolvers have screws. Most semis have pins. The difference, so far as I can tell, is that one needn't apply blue thread-locker to pins. Revolver screws are like car tires – they should be checked routinely before going out lest the ejector assembly in a SAA clone launch itself downrange at odd moments. Crane retaining cups in Colt double actions can be installed upside down and backwards by previous owners. The good folks at THR (Hi, Fuff, Defariswheel!) will sort it out but it's perplexing at first. I don’t have a Ruger DA yet – I understand they're not much for screws. I would probably like that.

Revolvers shoot cool stuff. Semis are available that shoot .357, .41 and .44 magnum but they're not what I would call elegant. GP100s, 686s, 57s, Pythons and Anacondas are elegant.

Revolvers remain inexpensive for what you get, at least compared to some 1911 types.

Revolvers are great for saving brass for reloading. Good thing, too. Things like .41 pretty much need to be reloaded to stay out of the poor house. Most semi rounds, even the premium persuasion, are cheaper.

The manual of arms is simple but I don’t find them all that much easier for newcomers. Possibly a combination of a grotty double action pull with the alternative being a newcomer waving the muzzle around while thumb cocking. One's difficult; the other's scary.

Some of the advantages I see invoked I accept strictly as an article of faith. Chief among these is the ability to shoot from one’s pocket. I am quite incapable of conjuring a situation where I would wish to do so, apart from zombies of course, and it's not totally clear that a semi wouldn't manage to work in similar far-fetched conditions. Regardless of any desirability or necessity of firing from within one's pocket I assume it's not a procedure one could practice routinely without major adjustments to one's clothing budget and if you can't practice it...

But I'm having good fun with my new-found hobby. I would offer the observation that threads such as these will suffer from confirmation bias unless posted in "general handguns". This is the choir, for the most part.

zinj
October 3, 2007, 07:59 PM
Of course this simplicity is mostly apparent, nothing simple about a revolverís clockwork. A person with some basic skills will find it much easier to work on most pistols than with a broken revolver

I think this should be changed to "It is much easier for the average shooter to swap parts on an automatic versus a revolver." If a replacement cannot be obtained for a broken or damaged part you are SOL with either form of pistol.

First of all, I know I'll take flak for saying the revolver is not as reliable as many say it is.

It is true that revolvers are not the tanks that some people try to portray them as. Many revolver malfunctions will also tie the gun up. However, malfunctions are much more uncommon overall in revolvers than autos.

More than one round can be fired from a coat pocket with a spurless revolver...Walking in a dark parking lot with your hand in your coat pocket and on your CCW, BG approaches with bad intentions...

I question the value of this tactic. First of all, the gun cannot be aimed with the sights, and pointing would be hindered by the garment constricting movement. The attacker would have to be at point blank range, and by that point you are probably already engaged in a physical confrontation (making trying to reach for the gun a dicey proposition). Lastly by shooting out of the pocket the deterant aspect of a firearm is removed (and would look horrible presented to a jury).

obxned
October 3, 2007, 08:03 PM
You list a bunch of 'advantages' for the rovolver, but I can think of only two:

1. It is bonehead simple to train a non-gun-person to use a revolver.

2. The rovolver can be bought for cartridges that a pistol can not.

Vern Humphrey
October 3, 2007, 08:14 PM
Shooting inside youer pocket is a questionable tactic to me, and the assumption that somehow a hammerless revolver can be shot repeatedly ignores the fact that the cylinder may not rotate if wrapped in cloth.

Cosmoline
October 3, 2007, 08:20 PM
Lastly by shooting out of the pocket the deterant aspect of a firearm is removed (and would look horrible presented to a jury).


I'm not sure where you're getting this. You don't have to display the firearm to the bad guy if he's trying to kill you. Indeed you don't have to tell him you're armed or give him a chance to put his arms up.

Either revolvers or semis can jam, of course. But semis tend to have more little problems, and tend to be more variable if not held properly. They're also far more sensitive to ammo choices.

MrBorland
October 3, 2007, 08:41 PM
It has been stated by people smarter than I that defensive revolvers should be rendered DAO. The range babes will kick sand in your face if you fire your DA revolver single action. Hence, revolver triggers suck. Some DA triggers suck less than others but next to a well executed 1911 they all suck. I've been working on my double action fu but the results are not encouraging.

I think Hawk and I have discussed this in a recent thread, but lemme reiterate: I do agree that there's a lot of merit in rendering a defense revolver DAO, but to say "revolver triggers suck" is to compare them directly to a SA trigger, which is comparing apples to oranges. To me, one's simply a DA trigger, and the other, SA. Whether DA or SA, one can have a great 'smith-tuned trigger or a lousy, gritty and creepy trigger. Whatever the platform, I'll take a "great 'smith-tuned" trigger over one that's "lousy, gritty and creepy" anyday. Besides, if DA triggers inherently suck, one couldn't be as accurate as when shooting SA, and this certainly hasn't been my experience.

As to the benefits of a revolver, I just flat-out like 'em. Not a thing in the world wrong with a semi, and I'll likely buy a BHP, 1911 or M&P9 at some point, but I simply enjoy shooting revolvers. I like their elegance and historical relevance. To me, there's a certain zen to a DA trigger, and it just makes the gun feel alive in my hand.

tube_ee
October 3, 2007, 08:44 PM
But in the discussion of simplicity for the non-shooter, there's no doubt that the DA wheelgun reigns supreme over every other firearm ever invented.

Start with loaded firearms, in the typical, loaded-but-at-rest condition for that gun.

Have every type you can think of.

Grab someone who's never shot a gun.

With no instruction, which gun is going to allow such a person to get off a shot?

It's the DA revolver. Pull trigger, "BANG!!" Not even a SxS or O/U shotgun is simpler, they both have safeties that would typically be in the "safe" position.

Granted, that's an intentionally extreme example. Where it is illustrative of the point is that, under stress, we tend to forget things. With the DA wheelie, there's only one thing to remember, and it happens to be the one thing that every gun requires to cause a shot to happen... pull the trigger.

That's it. Nothing else is needed.

For inherent safety and ease of manipulation under stress, the DA revolver has never been equaled, let alone exceeded. Certainly, the limited ammo capacity of the DA revolver, and the relative weakness of any handgun compared to a rifle or shotgun, are valid (albeit easily overstated in the context of civilian defensive use) points. But on the basic question, "which gun would I want in my hand if I was scared out of my mind and had to get a shot off NOW!!", the DA revolver stands alone.

There might be a counter-example out there, but I'm not aware of it.

--Shannon

Hawk
October 3, 2007, 08:53 PM
I think Hawk and I have discussed this in a recent thread

Indeed we have.

My carry piece is a Dawson-tuned STI and all my practice until very recently has been with that particular item. I've grown accustomed, some might say "dependent", on that trigger.

In the context of a carry gun, no revolver has a chance of matching it. Well, maybe a Mateba, but I'm not at all sure of that. My early practice with DA revolvers was laughable and has grown to be merely "sad". It's great that others can come to grips with a DA trigger but I'm not (at least yet) one of them.

If the rules of engagement state "DA only for revolvers", I'll stick with the STI. Should that ever change, I expect it will be thousands of rounds, hundreds of dollars and lots of time.

...not that trying isn't fun. But I can't take the notion of "defensive revolver" seriously for so long as that gawdawful trigger remains. I hasten to add that I'm working my DA-fu with a pair of Pythons - if something is available that's a lot better, let me know and I'll snag one of whatever it is.

Having trigger-related OCD is a terrible affliction. :D

zinj
October 3, 2007, 08:57 PM
I'm not sure where you're getting this. You don't have to display the firearm to the bad guy if he's trying to kill you. Indeed you don't have to tell him you're armed or give him a chance to put his arms up.

I mean if someone is far enough away to draw the gun and merely fires through their pocket they may shoot someone who would otherwise have retreated had they known the target was prepared to react with deadly force.

It would also would be easy for someone in a less than clear-cut shooting to have the fact that they shot through their pocket used as an implication that they shot first (since the gun was concealed when it was fired).

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Phydeaux642
October 3, 2007, 09:01 PM
The benefit for me is they put a big ol' smile on my face, and I need that big ol' smile.

____________________

"Phydeaux, bad dog....no biscuit!"

MrBorland
October 3, 2007, 10:47 PM
My carry piece is a Dawson-tuned STI and all my practice until very recently has been with that particular item. I've grown accustomed, some might say "dependent", on that trigger.


Well, now I understand. Yep - you're ruined. :D

Seriously, though, it sounds like you've got a very nice rig. Right now, all my triggers are stock, and would suck by comparison. But most would, too. After lots of dry firing and reading Cunningham's trigger articles, I realized mine (and very likely all stock revolvers) could use some real improvement. I'm on the wait list for a good action job, but in the meantime, I make do, and don't do too badly. My only concern is exactly what you articulated - once I get used to a great trigger, everything else will suck and I'll only be able to shoot this gun well. One could have worse troubles, I suppose.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/good_trigger.html
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/action_performance.html
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/do_you_need_a_trigger_job.html

Hawk
October 4, 2007, 10:57 AM
Cunningham isn't only what I take to be a revolver magician; he manages to answer my noob emails in a helpful fashion as well. I didn’t get on the waiting list as nine months away seems like a long time right now although he doesn't need the revolver until the end of the waiting period.

I'll probably jump on board as soon as I can get a better basic understanding of why double action is proving so frustrating. The groups have settled down to "mediocre" (a vast improvement) but the DA groups remain offset from the SA groups. The fact that I can’t see any deflection when dry firing is particularly maddening – it must be there but my inability to see it is getting on my last nerve. I'm lacking the frame of reference he speaks of in the last article linked.

But the voyage is fun.

Make sure to let us know how yours works out. How much longer before you send it in?

MrBorland
October 4, 2007, 12:27 PM
It's even worse - his original wait was 7-9 months, but he recently said he's backlogged 2-3 months beyond that. Good for him that business is good. And yes, he's very helpful. Between 'smithing, his blog, answering emails, and a personal life, he must not get much sleep. With the extended wait, I hope to send mine off by March.

If you know of someone who's a really good revolver shooter, you might have them shoot your gun, just to be sure there's nothing wrong with it. Pythons, eh? Never shot one myself - they have a reputation for very smooth actions, but also for being a bit finicky. Maybe it just needs the timing adjusted or a re-crowning. If the revolve specialist can't shoot it either, it may be time to send it to 'smith. If yo don't want to wait a year, I'm sure there are other revolver specialists available. THR's own Matt Almeda, for instance. Don't know if he works on Colts.

Ok, time to gve the thread back to the OP :rolleyes:

http://www.revolverarmorer.com/

Brasso
October 4, 2007, 02:54 PM
If you're having trouble shooting DA with a revolver and can't figure out why, the best thing to do is randomly load two live rounds with 4 empty cases. Close your eyes, spin the cylinder, and hope no one is watching when you jerk the trigger off the barn door on that used primer.:) It's actually embarassing, even with no one else around, to see how bad you are really flinching.

Seriously, it's a great way to improve your trigger control.

Vern Humphrey
October 4, 2007, 03:05 PM
If you're having trouble shooting DA with a revolver and can't figure out why, the best thing to do is randomly load two live rounds with 4 empty cases.
That's good advice, whether you're shooting DA or SA.

ravencon
October 4, 2007, 03:14 PM
Still at most only 5-6 shots. Give me my 17 every time
__________________
"It's a mall ninja thing, you wouldn't understand."


Spoken like a true Mall Nija! Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Hawk
October 4, 2007, 03:52 PM
If you're having trouble shooting DA with a revolver and can't figure out why, the best thing to do is randomly load two live rounds with 4 empty cases. Close your eyes, spin the cylinder, and hope no one is watching when you jerk the trigger off the barn door on that used primer. It's actually embarassing, even with no one else around, to see how bad you are really flinching.

Good advice. I'll give myself a little pat on the back for taking it months ago. Flinching isn't the problem this time although that technique was helpful a while back with a SA .44 Mag. A 6" barrel Python just doesn't have much in the way of recoil with 158 grain UMC yellow box or my handloads that are in the UMC "ballpark". Buffalo Bore rhino rounds would no doubt be different.

FWIW, the range people won't stroke out if you keep your eyes open but simply stare at the target while giving the cylinder a little twist before closing. The eyes closed technique might get me some unwanted attention.

I have another positive observation on revolvers: their character can completely transform by dinking about with grips. I recently snagged a (much) used 66-1 that came with wood grips similar to those on a model 57. A previous (over)used 66-2 has those itty-bitty wood round bottom grips and it's like the two firearms are from different planets.

I suspect the "empty chamber drill" will be needed if I shoot the 66-2 with the pixie grips much - 357s out of that guy hurt.

I've never handled one of the semis with the interchangable backstraps but I can't picture it mutating as thoroughly as the S&W 66 does through grip changes.

As nasty as that 66 with the doll-house grips is, I can only stand in awe of you folks that shoot 357s out of one of those teensy scandium whatsis.

mavracer
October 4, 2007, 08:40 PM
I question the value of this tactic. First of all, the gun cannot be aimed with the sights, and pointing would be hindered by the garment constricting movement.
Shooting inside youer pocket is a questionable tactic to me, and the assumption that somehow a hammerless revolver can be shot repeatedly ignores the fact that the cylinder may not rotate if wrapped in cloth.
you won't question the tactic once you try it and have sombody walk up to you in a dark parking lot(remeber you don't know if he's a mugger or just wants a light) and you have your hands in the pocket of your hoodie on your centennial frame.also once you fire a 38+p through your pocket the resulting hole will not have any cloth in it to get stuck in the cylinder.you can ask my buddie the OU fan about his OU hoodie. see mavracer is a K-State fan.

Vern Humphrey
October 5, 2007, 11:40 AM
you won't question the tactic once you try it and have sombody walk up to you in a dark parking lot(remeber you don't know if he's a mugger or just wants a light) and you have your hands in the pocket of your hoodie on your centennial frame.
Actually, I'd question the wisdom of walkiing around alone in a dark parking lot with my hands in my hoodie, and my indecision in allowing someone to get that close to me before making him declare his intentions.

Hawk
October 5, 2007, 03:27 PM
Actually, I'd question the wisdom of walkiing around alone in a dark parking lot with my hands in my hoodie, and my indecision in allowing someone to get that close to me before making him declare his intentions.

Concur.

An abject failure of situational awareness is a poor recommendation for far-fetched tactics. Even in a similar scenario it's hard to imagine how a "pocket shot" would be preferable to backpedaling like a demon while drawing. I guess one's back could be against a wall but that would graduate the situational awareness failure from merely "abject" to "Cosmic".

I will confess to a certain curiousity whether such a scenario ever played itself out outside a hollywood studio or someone's imagination and, if so, if anything was wounded apart from one's wardrobe. If so, was a second shot needed and how'd that work out?

mavracer
October 5, 2007, 03:30 PM
Actually, I'd question the wisdom of walkiing around alone in a dark parking lot with my hands in my hoodie, and my indecision in allowing someone to get that close to me before making him declare his intentions.
What you confront everybody in a dark parking lot,hope you don't run into yourself.

Vern Humphrey
October 5, 2007, 03:32 PM
As I have said many times, most disasters occur because people plan to have disasters. And going into a dark parking lot with both hands in your hoodie, then allowing an unidentified person to get close to you is as good a plan for a disaster as I've ever heard.

Vern Humphrey
October 5, 2007, 03:33 PM
What you confront everybody in a dark parking lot,hope you don't run into yourself.
So where is this crowded, dark parking lot?

FerFAL
October 5, 2007, 03:51 PM
Whenever I see something out of place or a stranger closing in as Iím entering the house/taking out the garbage/etc, I draw my gun and keep it pressed against the upper thigh, hiding it behind the hip. Itís hard to tell you have a gun this way, specially at night, and Iíd rather have my gun in hand until the possible threat is over, rather than betting on some 0.5 second draw or pocket shot. :)

FerFAL

BikerRN
October 5, 2007, 04:10 PM
Whenever I see something out of place or a stranger closing in as Iím entering the house/taking out the garbage/etc, I draw my gun and keep it pressed against the upper thigh, hiding it behind the hip. Itís hard to tell you have a gun this way, specially at night, and Iíd rather have my gun in hand until the possible threat is over, rather than betting on some 0.5 second draw or pocket shot.

FerFAL

I too would rather have a gun in my hand when danger comes. That is why I pocket carry my BUG.

As far as having the gun out during an unknown situation, that is a quick ticket to jail in most American communities. Unless you are justified in shooting you are most likely not justified in drawing the gun. The rules are different for On-Duty LEO's but I have to follow the same rules Non-LEO's do when I'm Off-Duty.

I like Revolvers, and I do not hide that fact. Most situations for Non-LEO's are resolved with less than three shots fired at three yards and less per the FBI statistics that I read. As a "Defensive Weapon" the Revolver is hard to beat, IMHO. As a "Tactical" or "Offensive" weapon any handgun sucks.

Biker

mavracer
October 6, 2007, 01:28 AM
So where is this crowded, dark parking lot?
do you have to take every thing out of context.cool let me try.
Actually, I'd question the wisdom of walkiing around alone in a dark parking lot with my hands in my hoodie, and my indecision in allowing someone to get that close to me before making him declare his intentions.
so you break the law by brandishing your firearm every time someone approches you.great thats how the stonycreek shooting started.

mavracer
October 6, 2007, 01:59 AM
I will confess to a certain curiousity whether such a scenario ever played itself out outside a hollywood studio or someone's imagination and, if so, if anything was wounded apart from one's wardrobe. If so, was a second shot needed and how'd that work out?
actually while no shooting occured I have had sombody waiting outside gander moutain follow me across the street into the parking garage. I turned and asked if I could help him ( he was still 15 feet away) he said somthing about the people at gander not speaking spanish and if I could help him.(he spoke very broken english and I didn't understand what he wanted,not even sure if he was on the level ) I said I don't speak spanish and I couldn't help him and kinda half turned and started to walk away never taking my eyes off him, he turned and walked back across the street.the whole time my 442 was in my hand in my hoodie pocket ready to react(remeber we are not cops we are only allowed to defend ourselves) either by draw and retreat or shoot from where it was.now tell me how you handle that situation with IWB/OWB. Because you put your hand on your gun its brandishing which is illegal in most places and a good way to start trouble when all the off duty cop wanted was a light for instance.and as to your concern about more than one shot after the first shot you can push the gun through the hole the muzzle blast makes and if you have CT the next shot is easy.

vynx
October 6, 2007, 02:24 AM
Here is another benefit of the revolver.

In rimfire they definetly jam less and you get a second strike.

In California where we are legislated to 10 rounds in the magazine I like the taurus 94 9 shot .22 LR. It never jams, is stainless, lightweight and a breeze to shoot. Why get a semi that has 2 more rounds and is less reliable and those rimfire magazines can be a pain to load. Speedloaders drop right in the revolver.

It is escpecially nice for non-gunners to try first time.

Not a self defense choice for me but still a nice revolver.

lawboy
October 6, 2007, 03:51 AM
revolvers have no univeral advantage over semis. Semis have no universal advantage over revolvers. The varioius attributes of each type MIGHT be an advantage depending on the situation. Other than that, people decide which they like and which they want to become proficient with and that is all there is too it. My choice for home defense and concealed carry has been a revolver 99% of the time.

My perspective on a point raised in this interesting thread:

It is true some semis can be fired more quickly than most revolvers. HOWEVER, for the vast majority of shooters the rate of accurate fire is not appreciately increased by use of a semi. A graphic example of this is watching competitors at an IDPA or similar action-style match. Egos being what they are, most people blaze through the cardboard silhouette targets, shooting as fast as they can get a snap sight picture and many not even bothering to use the sights. BUT, when they get to the steel plate targets, NEARLY EVERY SINGLE SHOOTER WILL SLOW DOWN. Why? because on the paper targets, neither the shooter nor the onlookers can tell whether the bullets are striking in the A zone, outside the scoring areas or off the paper entirely as the shooter moves through the course. They only find out afterwards. So, the shooter's ego tells him to shoot fast for a quick time and to look good. BUT, on the steel targets that give instant visual and auditory confirmation of a hit or miss at each shot, the shooter knows everyone will instantly know whether he hit or missed every time he pulls the trigger so in order to look good and save his ego, he has to get the hits. He cannot doing it with the mad dash, inaccurate technique used on the paper target so HE SLOWS DOWN ON THE STEEL TO GET THE HITS. Semi shooters are not immune from this. If you study the split times of most shooters in paper vs. steel targets you will see that ON STEEL, SEMI SHOOTERS AND REVOLVER SHOOTERS OF SIMILAR HIT RATIOS WHO ARE RANKED SIMILARLY HAVE SIMILAR SPLIT TIMES. I compete in IDPA. I videotape every match I attend and we typically have 80-100 shooters per match. I watch the tapes over and over at home, studying myself and other shooters. Without a doubt, the limiting factor for most shooters in accurate, fast fire is not action type, it is reacquiring sight picture and tracking. This is obvious when watching a shooter on paper and then steel because most of them don't even bother to confirm sight picture on paper but they do take that time on steel due to either egos.

lawboy
October 6, 2007, 04:13 AM
One other observation. For those finding it hard to get good hits with a revolver or any other gun, try this: Watch the front sight.
I know, I know, it is a bit elemental in terms of advice, but there is something more too it. You must watch the front sight THE ENTIRE TIME. I instruct revolver and semi shooters on a weekly basis as a range officer. A very common problem is shooters closing their eyes or taking their eyes off the sights right before they complete the trigger stroke. There are a number of problems going on here. First, if they are closing their eyes consistently at this time, it means they know when the gun is going to fire and thus are yanking the trigger and not slowly adding pressure with a squeeze. Second, they are anticipating the recoil and blast and are closing their eyes in an attempt to avoid one or both. Third, both the yank and the closing of the eyes means the shot will not be on target. By forcing yourself to watch that front sight until it disappears upward with the recoiling muzzle, then watching it reappear as the gun comes down, and NEVER CLOSING YOUR EYES OR TAKING THEM OFF THE SPOT WHERE THE SIGHT WAS, you will almost automatically stop yanking the trigger and will get better hits. It is a mental game much more than a physical game. You have to want the hits more than you want to be sensorily comfortable. Deal with the noise and sudden motion of the gun towards your face. You have to stop caring about the sensory discomfort and start caring about hitting what you aim at. Even if the gun comes back and hits you in the face, stop giving a damn and watch that sight and get the hit!

CoinMan
October 6, 2007, 08:03 AM
"It is a mental game much more than a physical game. "

This is precisely why I enjoy shooting a revolver, either in DA or SA. The shooter must be much more deliberate and focused to make a tighter group. I used to play a lot of golf, and the focus needed to shoot a revolver is analogous to keeping your head down and eye on the ball when hitting a shot. If you get mentally sloppy, your shots will end up in the wrong places.

Additionally, shooting a semi with a 17 shot capacity makes me a little nervous sometimes, because I find it difficult to remember how many I have left in the mag when I get past 12 or so. I really don't need that many at once anyway - I prefer the short reloading breaks for shooting the breeze with my range partners or taking a couple cigarette drags. I practice to become more accurate, but shooting is as much about socializing as anything else. I like to just take my time and enjoy the outing.

Vern Humphrey
October 6, 2007, 12:01 PM
so you break the law by brandishing your firearm every time someone approches you.great thats how the stonycreek shooting started.
Let me be polite.

First of all, you don't enter a dark, lonely area without scanning it carefully. Then you remain alert as you enter.

Second, you don't carry your gun in your "hoody." That's too loose and baggy.

Third, however you carry it, you have your hand on it and ready to draw.

Fourth, if someone approaches you, you give clear verbal warmings.

You never let yourself get put in the position where you have to shoot through a pocket.

mavracer
October 6, 2007, 01:42 PM
First of all, you don't enter a dark, lonely area without scanning it carefully. Then you remain alert as you enter.
I agree with that and that has nothing to do with mode of carry.but say it's
not dark and there's a few people within sight not close, and the guy approches .can't put my hand on the HK or Tauri 357 thats normaly IWB so hands go in hoodie or left hand goes in LF pocket and finds the 442 (soon to be 340 M&P) if I'm not wearing hoodie (which is most of the time,I'm a fat polar bear never cold).
Second, you don't carry your gun in your "hoody." That's too loose and baggy.
once again I'm 5'8" and 250 lbs. my hoodie's not exactly loose and baggy.I carry an airweight in a pocket holster near the left side of the pocket there is plenty of room to draw it without being visual.now I'm standing there not threatning with my hand in my pocket when I confront the guy ( which I saw because just cause I pocket carry does not mean I quit paying attention) and I guarentee I can get a shot off from that position faster than you can from a IWB/OWB carry.
Third, however you carry it, you have your hand on it and ready to draw.
you can be polite all you want you just commited a crime if you are not pocket carrying.IWB/OWB you put your hand on your gun without the need for deadly force its brandishing.
Fourth, if someone approaches you, you give clear verbal warmings.
sounds to me like your lookin' for a fight.Guy was just gonna ask for a smoke.
You never let yourself get put in the position where you have to shoot through a pocket.
hey I'll draw if I have time I HAVE THAT OPTION ALSO
Just cause I said it was an option and that it does work to shoot from the pocket,I never said it would be my first or only move.

texas bulldog
October 6, 2007, 06:10 PM
vern & mavracer...

i humbly submit that you're both going overboard and hijacking the thread. however, i have to say one thing:

brandishing laws vary widely from one jurisdiction to another. and in some places they don't exist at all. so it is patently false to suggest that placing your hand on a holstered weapon is automatically brandishing.



can you tell i dislike the "brandishing" calls during such discussions?

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