Gun Snatched....help me guys!


PDA






Flintknapper
October 4, 2007, 05:32 PM
Good evening gentlemen.

I need your help in the form of participation in this poll.

I reside in Texas...and have held a CHL for the last 11 years. We are having a discussion about Open Carry at this site:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/index.php

Thread:
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=10360&highlight=

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=4983&forum_id=7

I have searched this forum already, but have not found what I feel is the answer to my question(s).

The person I am having a discussion with is of the opinion that Open Carry is too dangerous to attempt in an "urban" environment. His concern is that your weapon is apt to be "snatched" by someone.

To be fair to this gentleman, I readily concede it is "possible" but challenge the likelihood of it. He submits... that so few people actually carry in "urban" areas.. that he can provide no proof of whether or not it actually occurs.

In all his travels, he cites that he witnessed only two people Open Carrying in an Urban area (City of any size).

This is where I turn to you, and Thank You in advance for your time and participation.

Urban area= Any city of more than 10,000 residents...and you must have been among the public in some type of setting.

Please withhold the use of expletives in any replies, it will save us the trouble of editing them later.

If you are a member of OpenCarry.org and have participated in the poll there please do not vote here.

Again, Thank You....

Flint.

If you enjoyed reading about "Gun Snatched....help me guys!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
JohnKSa
October 4, 2007, 05:34 PM
It has happened. It's rare because open carry is rare.

Here's an ongoing discussion that contains a verifiable instance of an OC'er having his gun snatched. (Post 11)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=306730...that he can provide no proof of whether or not it actually occurs.IMO this is a ludicrous argument.

Whether or not it has occurred (it happens that it has) it doesn't take a huge leap of logic to determine that it certainly CAN happen.

LEOs have guns taken from them in spite of training and specialized holsters designed to prevent it.

Gunstores are held up by armed robbers in spite of the fact that most gun store clerks are armed--usually OC.

Just because something is rare (or even if it has never happened) doesn't mean it CAN'T happen. That kind of reasoning is what led to the past belief that travelling at the breakneck speed of 60mph would kill a human being.

Flintknapper
October 4, 2007, 05:42 PM
Thank You for the reference John.

That is the gentleman I referred to in my post.

Of course, I am not contesting that it can (and does) happen, I posted that in my opening statement. We are both trying to gather information concerning the subject so that we might all learn something.

Again, thanks for the reply.

Flint.

waterhouse
October 4, 2007, 05:46 PM
Do you want LEOs to vote? Being in Texas, the only time I open carried was in uniform, but no one in the high crime city of Laredo ever tried to take my gun from me.

Flintknapper
October 4, 2007, 05:56 PM
Hi Waterhouse,

I see you are from my old "stomping grounds" (Austin).

To answer your question, no....the discussion to date has been about civilians Open Carrying and the frequency (or lack of) gun snatchings.

Primarily, I am seeking persons who OC in urban areas, secondary to that is any info on "snatchings". Both I and the other gentleman recognize that a poll from a small sampling will be imperfect. We are just trying to gather information that is somewhat verifiable.

I believe the snatching instances would be rare (certainly possible), and he believes otherwise. In any case, we are looking for information that will serve to educate us all.

Thank you Sir!

Soap
October 4, 2007, 06:05 PM
I've not personally heard of any instance where a private citizen had their CCW "snatched" while open carrying. Of course, as John said, it is entirely possible. But as a cowardly BG, why attack a well-armed person when there are plenty of people in condition white that won't even put up a fight? I've open carried in an urban area and never had a problem of any kind, other than some guys eyeballing me when I was pumping gas. Maybe they didn't like 1911s. As usual, awareness is key.

JesseL
October 4, 2007, 06:06 PM
Here is an account of some of my experiences:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=296200

I've OC'ed hundreds of times by now with ZERO incidents.

I've only had one person react in a manner even approaching hostile. A couple weeks ago I was out for a walk with my wife when an older gentleman asked (In the rudest and most confrontational tone he could manage) "Why do you need a pistol to walk down the street!?". Being a little annoyed, I replied "In case I need to shoot something". In retrospect I suppose I could have been a little more diplomatic.

JohnKSa
October 4, 2007, 06:06 PM
I believe the snatching instances would be rare...They will DEFINITELY be rare. As I put it on the other thread, it's rare for the same reason that car damage from hitting California Condors is rare.

But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to hit a California Condor with a car, and it also doesn't mean that cars are impervious to damage from California Condors.Being a little annoyed, I replied "In case I need to shoot something".Another voter "educated" by an OC'er.I've not personally heard of any instance where a private citizen had their CCW "snatched" while open carrying.Now (http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm) you have.

TexasRifleman
October 4, 2007, 06:09 PM
If that argument were to be true then Police Officers would regularly have their weapons taken since they all open carry (for the most part).

What percentage of officers have their weapon taken from their holsters?

That would give you a rough starting place. I'm betting it's a pretty small number.

JohnKSa
October 4, 2007, 06:11 PM
What percentage of officers have their weapon taken from their holsters?Training and the common use of retention holsters makes it harder. But it does happen, and not infrequently, even with the precautions.

Here's an article (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:lx-_DFM0iucJ:findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n9_v40/ai_17608787)by Massad Ayoob claiming that retention training techniques have "saved over a thousand cops in documented gun-snatch attempts".

The article also addresses the issue of gun store clerks/operators who OC and have had their guns grabbed.

230RN
October 4, 2007, 06:26 PM
Off-topic. Sorry.

Flintknapper
October 4, 2007, 07:25 PM
Fellas,

With all due respect, I am not really looking for personal opinions or a debate about the tactical soundness of such a method of carry.

This thread will quickly get off track if we go there.

I am just asking for your participation in the form of a vote, or direction to other pertinent information.

I apologize if that sounds like a "newbie" scolding the regulars here, that is not my intent or my nature. I just need for this thread to be as purposeful as possible.

Thanks,

Flint.

frankie_the_yankee
October 4, 2007, 07:29 PM
JohnKsa writes: Here's an article by Massad Ayoob claiming that retention training techniques have saved "saved over a thousand cops in documented gun-snatch attempts".

Wow! A thousand documented snatch attempts (from cops). I had read that article before but missed that detail.

That's a lot of attempted snatchings.

TehK1w1
October 4, 2007, 07:29 PM
Hiya Flint! :)

Louisiana Carry
October 4, 2007, 07:43 PM
i Pressed The Wrong Button Accidentally! Please Disregard The 1 Vote For Option Two. Sorry.

Citroen
October 4, 2007, 08:14 PM
That a criminal type would deliberately walk up to a person opening carrying a gun and attempt to "snatch" said gun is pretty far fetched. I would submit that most (if not all) cases involving police took place when the Officer had engaged the suspect and was attempting to affect an arrest.

You can research it if you please, but for my money, opening carrying a firearm is a deterrent in itself.

John
Charlotte, NC

Sistema1927
October 4, 2007, 08:17 PM
Are Phoenix, Tucson, Albuquerque, and Las Cruces urban enough for you? I have open carried in all four locales, and have never had an attempted snatch.

JohnKSa
October 4, 2007, 08:38 PM
That a criminal type would deliberately walk up to a person opening carrying a gun and attempt to "snatch" said gun is pretty far fetched.1. This thread contains a link to a police report where exactly what you describe happened.

2. This thread contains a link to an article describing cases where gun store clerks/operators had exactly what you describe happen to them.

Flintknapper
October 4, 2007, 08:42 PM
That a criminal type would deliberately walk up to a person opening carrying a gun and attempt to "snatch" said gun is pretty far fetched. I would submit that most (if not all) cases involving police took place when the Officer had engaged the suspect and was attempting to affect an arrest.


I have to agree with this statement when we consider the environment and duties of LEO. It only make sense...that if any group were to experience a gun snatching, then ordinary citizens would make a more tempting target.

Even the dumbest criminals know that LEO have retention skills, retention holsters, empty hands training, OC, a baton or ASP, probably a knife...etc

Surely, most of these instances are the result of a struggle and the officer initiated the contact.

But thats a whole different subject.

Flintknapper
October 4, 2007, 08:53 PM
Hiya Flint!

Hey Kiwi! Good to hear from ya.

You still on the ranch?

Oh yeah, OC content:

Frankie, that 1,000 attempted snatchings of cops weapons would make a good study for you. It might be tough to verify...and we would need to know what period of time it covered, then compare it to the total number of LEO over that time period. If you find out anything....let us know, I'm curious as well.

JohnKSa
October 4, 2007, 10:27 PM
Frankie, that 1,000 attempted snatchings of cops weapons...
It actually referred to OVER a thousand attempted snatchings where the officer prevented the snatch due to a specific type of retention training.

That means that there were many more gun snatches that were either prevented by other means or that were successful.

Standing Wolf
October 4, 2007, 10:35 PM
Lots of people are scared silly of carrying openly.

Flintknapper
October 4, 2007, 11:36 PM
It actually referred to OVER a thousand attempted snatchings where the officer prevented the snatch due to a specific type of retention training.

That means that there were many more gun snatches that were either prevented by other means or that were successful.

Probably true. Now how do you intend to make this analogous to civilians OCing?

Surely, you are not suggesting this would be a fair comparison?

Even Frankie pretty much backed off of that notion when it was discussed on the TexasCHLforum.

sturmgewehr
October 5, 2007, 12:01 AM
Cops are in a unique situation... they are high profile and they are out looking for confrontation. The average citizen isn't out confronting BG's... therefore it's not as likely they run the same risk a LEO does with regards to having their gun snatched.

However, with that said, it can happen... but then you can be killed by a meteor falling from the sky too.

JohnKSa
October 5, 2007, 12:52 AM
Probably true. Now how do you intend to make this analogous to civilians OCing?

Surely, you are not suggesting this would be a fair comparison?I initially posted the link to the article in response to:If that argument were to be true then Police Officers would regularly have their weapons taken since they all open carry (for the most part).

What percentage of officers have their weapon taken from their holsters?I posted the clarification in response to:...that 1,000 attempted snatchings of cops weapons would make a good study for you.I never implied it was analogous to civilians OC'ing, if anyone on this thread has, it was TexasRifleman.

However, the article also contained some incidents in which gun store clerks had open carry guns snatched, and I guess we all know about the Newton Patent/Newton Tavern snatching by now...However, with that said, it can happen... but then you can be killed by a meteor falling from the sky too.Several instances of non-LEO's having their gun snatched have been posted on this thread alone. I'd be interested to see some meteor deaths documented since you think that's a fair comparison. ;)

frankie_the_yankee
October 5, 2007, 01:11 AM
JohnSka writes: However, the article also contained some incidents in which gun store clerks had open carry guns snatched, and I guess we all know about the Newton Patent/Newton Tavern snatching by now...

I'm not familiar with the Newton Patent/Newton Tavern snatching. What were the circumstances?

Also, I see that there are now TWO attempted snatches reported in the poll. One was stated to be a mistake. That leaves one that is apparently NOT a mistake. It would be nice if the person who experienced this attempted snatching posted some information about it.

JohnKSa
October 5, 2007, 01:24 AM
Newton Patent/Newton Tavern is the street intersection of the Fairfax county snatch where two guys put a metallic object to the OC'er's head and took his pistol.

It's the incident I linked to in Post #8 on this thread.

Erik
October 5, 2007, 01:29 AM
"I do not carry in urban areas for fear my weapon will be snatched."

I do not believe most people who disdain open carry do so out of fear that their weapon will be snatched. Thus, your poll won't be accurate.

Erik, who votes "none of the above."

Stretchman
October 5, 2007, 01:30 AM
I had an attempted snatch. Just a joke, right? Ha ha. Twice from behind while sitting in a chair. Once on foot patrol. hey, just kidding.

Course, my backup piece was a 5 shot carried in a pocket holster. Got pretty good with the left hand after a little practice.

1911RjB
October 5, 2007, 01:40 AM
I'd say its a no brainer, 1st open carry is very rear in most "urban" areas. also if you carrying you have to have some reason, also when i carry i'm just more awear of my i've never heard of it happening.

if anyone has a link to a new article or anything verified.. please post it.

Ala Dan
October 5, 2007, 01:57 AM
Yes, I do carry openly in an urban area daily; my gun has not been
snatched, and NO attempts have been made to do so~!;):D

BlackBearME
October 5, 2007, 03:24 AM
Like someone said above, it's amazing how crazed out some people get over Open Carry. I saw a discussion on Concealed Carry Forum where people were getting rather up in arms (need a new cliche) about Open Carry. Granted, it is a concealed carry forum, so obviously the bias would be toward CC, but I don't quite understand why people are so adamant against it. I live in Maine, where OC is allowed, and I do on occasion. I don't do it all the time, most of the time it's when I'm going out shooting/returning from, and stopping at a store or something. I don't have a CCW yet (working on changing that) and would rather not leave the gun in the car. Never gotten any funny looks from it, but then, this is Maine.

I think OC is good for two reasons. The first is the fact that we can. Even more important because there are some places that you can't OC (a fact of which I was in ignorance until just this week - and am still incredulous about!). It's a right I have, and I will.

The other reason for OC is because we need to get people used to it. OK, not everyone is going to be convinced to carry, but the more often people see it, the more they will become used to it. I seem to recall someone saying the biggest reason they wouldn't OC is that they didn't want to scare people. Why do these people get scared? Because they never see someone carrying a gun. The only time your average person ever sees a gun IRL is on the hip of a cop. Isn't "Cops are the only ones who should have guns" one of the mentalities we want to be eliminating?

I will admit, there is a tactical loss - it could potentially make yourself the priority target, and for this reason alone I wouldn't do it all the time, even if I had something less wieldy than a Taurus 92. And you lose the advantage of surprise, if something's going on.

I'm not saying it's always applicable, or always right, but it's a step. It's a step to preserve the rights some of us already have, and try to open the minds of others. The "war" against guns is not going to end in a huge leap, it's going to be by steps and tip-toes. This is one way of accomplishing this, IMO.

annielulu
October 5, 2007, 04:00 AM
I have never had the occasion to open carry except at the range. However, I do endorse open carry. If more folks did, then it would be less of a big deal to the paranoid amongst us.

If I ever do open carry, I will be especially wary of a gun snatch. That being said, I think the proposed "snatchor" would be in for a big surprise. I always keep my head on a good swivel, when walking, driving or any other activity and I always have a BUG which I can access quite rapidly.

My CCW has been instrumental in aquiring this attitude of awareness.

denfoote
October 5, 2007, 04:04 AM
Arizona has been an open carry state since 14Feb1912.
I've carried open for years. Nothing has happened!!

Flintknapper
October 5, 2007, 08:20 AM
Also, I see that there are now TWO attempted snatches reported in the poll. One was stated to be a mistake. That leaves one that is apparently NOT a mistake. It would be nice if the person who experienced this attempted snatching posted some information about it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
It certainly would.

Unfortunately, NONE of the votes from either poll in this category have a comment or statement included. I readily accept them...because this is a blind poll (non verified), a small poll (unreliable statistically) and its only purpose is to reveal any possible trends.

My thanks to everyone who has participated. Please keep your votes and comments coming.

Flint

cyclist
October 5, 2007, 08:37 AM
In all his travels, he cites that he witnessed only two people Open Carrying in an Urban area (City of any size).

This needs to be further qualified as relating only to private citizens since has already been stated police officers open carry all the time.

"Why do you need a pistol to walk down the street!?".

It's not a question of need, no more than asking him in return why he "needed" to walk down that street when he could have drove. It is a question of rights and freedoms and individual freedom to choose for one's self. The person the guy was talking to didn't "need" to, rather he "choose" to. Not all of us live where that is an option to personally choose. But off topic, sorry.

The poll questions:

Yes, I have carried in an urban area, gun was not snatched, no attempts.

Legality aside, I'll not say much about this one.

I have carried in an urban area and experienced a gun snatching or attempt.

See previous reply.

I do not carry in urban areas for fear my weapon will be snatched.

I have a problem with the word "fear" here. "Concern", maybe, but the word fear implies the wrong thing to me. If one is afraid then perhaps one shouldn't be there to begin with. Also does not allow for someone not wanting to cause concern to those in the area who might be upset by seeing someone open carrying, like was noted in a previous post that I quote above. Perhaps this question could be rephrased as:
"I do not open carry in urban areas out of concern of becoming a theft target and out of concern of not wanting to upset other citizens".

The poll also does not allow for an answer whereby someone living in Wisconsin for instance, while open carry is technically legal, can not exercise this option due to conflicting and constraining laws. Perhaps a fourth question about "Open carry is not a functional option due to laws and applied regulations".

I answered to #1 relating to a legal occurance many years ago. The poll also does not allow for multiple responses, for example I might open carry in the urban area of Prentice Wisconsin but not in the urban area of Milwaukee or Madison, so technically I could click #1 and #3.

Perhaps you also need a 4th or 5th qualifying question as to whether or not someone has had or currently trains in weapon retention techniques.

While it might be nice to be able to get simple and direct responses, the reality of the matter is that there is no simple response due to the way the questions are asked and due to the nature of the debate in general. Concealed Carry is subject to snatch attempts as well, just as purse snatching is a concern in urban areas, just as pick pocketing is also a concern in urban areas. Situational awareness and personal preparedness, doesn't matter if we're talking about carrying a firearm or driving a car, is what matters, not some quantification of attempted versus non-attempted snatchings.

Hope this helps in some way, just personal opinion standing on it's own with no stated qualifications to back it up. :cool:

Hokkmike
October 5, 2007, 08:39 AM
I do not "open" carry.

wheelgunslinger
October 5, 2007, 08:55 AM
I OC. I've never had a snatch attempt.

Ala Dan
October 5, 2007, 09:38 AM
"Why do you need a pistol to walk down the street"?

Heck, I don't go to the mail box without a firearm; just a precautionary
measure, as there is no sense in being stupid in this day and age~! ;)

JohnKSa
October 5, 2007, 11:27 AM
I don't quite understand why people are so adamant against it.I, for one, am not "against it". I've posted here and elsewhere that I think it should be legal everywhere. I also believe that it has the potential to educate the public if done properly. It does have its place, and if it ever becomes legal here, there are circumstances under which I would open carry.

However, I do believe that OC has some tactical disadvantages compared to CC and I also think that many OC'ers, instead of advancing the cause of gun rights through OC actually set it back. I also react negatively to the aggressive, often abusive manner in which OC'ers often try to push it on other gun owners. It seems that many won't be happy unless everyone finally knuckles under and owns up that OC is always the best tactical solution to self-defense and that it's always an excellent method for acclimatizing the general public to firearms in a constructive way.

In other words, I'm not arguing for the elimination of OC, quite the contrary, I think the legality of OC should be expanded. I'm just tired of the flawed reasoning displayed in these threads and the overly aggressive "marketing" of OC on the forums.

Nio
October 5, 2007, 11:39 AM
My whole argument against open carry revolves sort of around that... Your gun represents wealth, it *is* a kind of wealth, and it is also the means to protect that wealth. If I gave you some other form of wealth the same value as the gun - like $500 in cash - are you going to stick it in your belt and let it flap in the breeze for everyone to see, or are you going to put it in your pocket?

Nio

Flintknapper
October 5, 2007, 06:38 PM
bump

Flintknapper
October 5, 2007, 09:13 PM
Gentlemen,



Looks like this poll has pretty much played out.



Thank you one and all... for your participation, thoughts and comments.

I would like to have had comments from those who voted that they had a gun snatched or don't carry openly in urban areas because of concern. I think it would have been enlightening...but I respect their right to remain anonymous.

I have really enjoyed the short time I have spent here and plan to visit from time to time.

Please feel free to join here as well: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/index.php

Thanks again,

Flint.

If you enjoyed reading about "Gun Snatched....help me guys!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!