[liberty boy]

Having done much reading of the pros and cons of just about every self defence device - the best device on balance views seem to be a mace gun which fires a combination of CS gas and pepper. they're even cheap to buy.

[Jeff White]

What is your personal experience with using this mace gun for self defense?

I've used mace and then OC as a police officer. I've used CS in the Army. My experience with CS is that it has to be in pretty high concentrations to really be effective. Why would you mix it with pepper (by which I assume you mean OC).

I've found OC is very effective.

Jeff

[liberty boy]

Im afraid i don't have any experience of any self defence device at all. I'm new to this type of discussion. But as i say I've avidly read just as many neutral and supposedly objective opinions as i can find on the net- many like you from self defence experts etc. And some say no self defence devices can really be relied on but on balance as i say the conclusion I'm drawn to take is that the combination of pepper and CS gas comes out best in most people's reckoning as being the best bet for those who do want to carry something. At least for those who can't or don't want to carry an actual gun.To that extent I will apreciate and take under consideration with great respect your own view and anyone elses further opinion on this matter.

[armoredman]

I have personally witnessed inmates who are immune to pepper spry, and one who was actually immune to Taser. A gas spray, which depends on a chemical reaction to gain compliance, is not the best defense ever. It is an excellent tool, and one I carry every day, but it is not the end all/be all.
CS and OC together would be interesting, total pain to decontaminate.
Mace, by the way, is a trademark name for a chemical defense spray made by Smith and Wesson, from the 1960s. It is NOT OC, and is generally considered to be very inferior to OC.

[liberty boy]

First of all i thought stun gns were the answer. But much of the hyperbole on the sites that vend them- that they instantly disable the attacker has been attacked by independent experts. I have to say such misleading product information would probably be an offence were they operating under European law.

At the end of day one way to see the actual effects of various devices is to check out videos of kids playing about with them on Youtube. To that end the combination mace guns seem to do the trick in terms of visually disabling the attacker better than anything else.

[liberty boy]

hiya ameroedman

yes it seems agreed on that the combination mace guns that fire CS, OC and pepper combined are the most recommended as opposed to just pepper alone

[hso]

no self defence devices can really be relied on

One of my martial arts teachers is a correctional officer. He's been working at a max prison for nearly 20 years. He has endless stories of how chemical sprays can not be relied upon to stop an attack. His experience spans the use of CS in prison riots to Mace, OC and Mace/OC combinations. None of them can be counted on to stop an individual.

That said, they are another tool in the defensive tool box, but not to depended upon to stop an attack.

[liberty boy]

Well that seems the bottom line. They've yet to invent anything that can be relied on.

So you may as well pay $12 on a canister of mace that can't be relied upon as pay $300 for a taser gun that can't be relied upon.

[piranha45]

and one who was actually immune to Taser

Just how 'immune' was this guy? Surely he couldn't continue reading the paper at leisure while being zapped. What was his height/weight? Was he high off something when he was zapped?

[Slugless]

Welcome, Liberty

It wouldn't be convenient to carry but if you want to give pepper spray a go (OC and pepper are the same thing, btw)...

Try a large OC cannister rated for bear. Lots and lots of volume for multiple shots. Remember you're going to need to practice, just like any weapon and one of these allows you some practice shots. They work on bear although the one experience we had was that the first shot stopped her but it took a second one to incapacitate her.

The big volume allows you to really hose somebody down, get it in eyes, nose, mouth, etc.

Can't buy it everywhere, however. It does come with a free nylon belt holster, though.

[Valkman]

Gimme a .45 device with 13 JHP "felon repellants". :D

[sm]

Too many variables to have a "overall best".
One is wise to have many tools in the toolbox with the mindset , knowledge and quality instruction with continued practice of usage of tools.

Always been a fan of tennis shoes myself...;)

[liberty boy]

(OC and pepper are the same thing, btw)...

Sorry i'm getting muddled up with these initials- I told you all i'm newbie to all this. I meant to say the tripple action guns that shoot mace, CS and CN tear gas seem logically to be the most recomendable.

Do prison officers have weapons loaded with all three at their disposal? surely it's at least quite likely that a guy will be stopped by a combination of all three?

[Jeff White]

CS and CN are riot control agents. They are not that effective in the concentrations you'd find in a gas cartridge out of a small hand held weapon.

Nothing works on everyone, but OC is the standard for chemical defensive sprays.

Jeff

[jsebens]

While I'm not immune to OC (but I wish I was), before this deployment, we all got a Level 1 exposure...which is to say, sprayed in a Z-pattern across the forehead and face. I was able to complete a several-station combatives course before it really hit me and affected my abilities.

OC hurts like nothing else...but not right away.

[loose cannon]

my one oc exposure got my attention,i belive that id quit being a twerp if i got a full dose of it.but i also figure if i hit myself repeatedly with it i could build up a tolerence to it and maybe be a pain to the one who hit me with it.

the bear spray sounds like a good bet tho.

like some here have said as well its a good idea to have a plan b,,,

as for"oc guns"the only ones i might trust are the kimber"life act"ones,and that only after testing.

[nhhillbilly]

I have used O/C spray since 1991 on the job. It does leave a lot to be desired. I have found highly intoxicated people don't feel the effects when they are enraged. I have fought through it several times after being throughly sprayed with foam, stream or spray. If you want you can fight through most anything.

Only central nervous system disruption shuts down fights fast.

[Dravur]

as a desert topping and room freshener. I have been Peppered twice. It makes my nose run a little and my eyes sting, but in no way "puts me down" Some people do not react to pepper spray. I love VERY hot peppers, so that may be a reason. I use habaneros in chili....whole ones.

Now, putting a 9 volt battery on my tongue will almost make me collapse, so I am prolly very susceptible to a taser. So, if you come to my house, bring chili and leave the taser home.

[jahwarrior]

air tasers are much more effective than any pepper/OC spray on the market, as it instantly will immobilize the target. a good OC will will work most of the time; tasers work 100% of the time. i've seen enough youtube vids and episodes of COPS to have seen guys take a full face blast of OC and keep fighting. i even had a friend pepper me with Sabre Red to see if it would put me down; it hurt like hell, and i had trouble breathing, but if i were determined enough, i'd still put up a fight. i doubt very much i'd be getting up from a tasering.

[brent376]

The three things to look for when buying an OC spray is:

1. Capsaicinoid Concentration or Scoville Value For example a 10% 2 million SHU spray has a 200,000 scoville value while a 2% 5,300,000 spray has a 106,000 scoville value

2 Spray pattern: Get a cone or fog spray. The stream and foam patterns take too long to affect the respiratory system while the cone and fog on contact affect the eyes and respiratory system. In the NIJ pepper spray study stream pepper spray was effective abuot 72% of the time while the cone was about 90% effective. You dont need a spray that shoots 20 feet as most pepper sprays are used at distances of 3 feet or less. This is why many police departments are going to the Tiger Light flashlight with built in cone oc spray.

3 Carrier: Get one with alcohol or liquid dymel 134ap. This carrier evaporates inches from the canister leaving pure capsaicinoids heading into the eyes and face of the attacker.

Which one do I carry all the time? The Spitfire Pepper spray www.spitfire.us

It is consitantly hot at 10% OC, 2 million SHU with 1.4% Capsaicinoids HPLC Tested Cone fog pattern with evaporating base all packaged in the best dispenser that fires any direction and is always with you.

While no OC spray is 100% effective the right spray will work more often than not and will buy you the time to get out of a bad situation or use a higher level of force.

[mljdeckard]

Not trusting any of these devices in their current forms.

Any sprayed agent has the possibility of being blown or deflected BACK INTO THE FACE OF THE USER. To use them reliably, you are going to have to step into the 3-step danger zone.

Same with stun-guns. I don't want a contact weapon, I don't want to be that close to my attacker. real-life sometimes has other plans, but with a contact weapon, you have no other choice. Every encounter will be a close quarters, grappling, bad breath, am-I-stronger-than-this-guy encounter.

Are you SURE that you can hit with that tazer, at an range and angle less than ideal, and it will penetrate the skin, leather jacket, etc? I'M NOT. With any electrical weapon, there is also the concern of making sure it doesn't zap YOU in the process.

[Pax Jordana]

Everyone bleeds.

Not everyone has a reaction to OC - and more people don't have enough of a reaction to stop effectively fighting.

[JShirley]

I took a face full of OC for the hell of it (that sure made the team sergeant happy, when he heard about it :uhoh:) on my recent deployment. It pretty much took me down- not the pain, though it did hurt. Rather, it was not being able to breathe.

If I had been willing to die, I could have taken someone before incapacitated. (Might not have actually killed me, but I certainly did my best to stay very still and breathe slowly.)

[alsaqr]

i got sprayed with OC several years ago in preparation for a temporary assignment to North Africa. Thought i was going to die.

In 2000, i was accosted by an idiot at two traffic lights. The first light turned green before the guy got to my truck and i took off. Next light was a long one and i rolled the window down and grabbed my OC. As the idiot took a wild swing, i wetted him down good with OC in the face. He fell part way in the intersection. As soon as it was safe i made a right turn, pulled over and called the police.

The police came and arrested the orange faced drunk. i pressed charges and later called the prosecutor to find out what had happened to my complaint. Turns out the guy had also raped his two step-daughters. He was later sentenced to 200 years in prison.

[brent376]

Sure OC can blow around in the wind. A bullet could miss the target and hit grandma walking down the street, with a taser one of the probes may miss. All products have advantages and disadvantages. I have heard of a guy taking several rounds of .45ACP and he kept fighting. OC spray and Tasers are less than lethal options that help you get away from an unarmed attacker. I hear macho guys say I dont need pepper spray I have a gun. then you wind up like the guy in my town who shot an unarmed man because he only had a gun and no less lethal option so he was forced to use deadly force and yes he had a CCW and was retired LE.

[copaup]

We carry oc/cs spray at work. I have sprayed lots of folk, and it seems about 70% effective. 20% requires a bit of wrestling to get the cuffs on, 8% you still have a pretty good fight on your hands, and 2% show no effect to the spray whatsoever. Fox 5.3 seems to work best and has no cs at all. wrestling in a cloud of oc mist flat sucks by the way. Avoid cone sprays.

OC/CS sprays are a tool and add options. Options are good. Be ready to go to other means when the spray fails. As non leo I'd dump a healthy dose of spray and run the other way while the guy was coughing and cursing.

I once watched a violent mental patient catch a mouthful of 10% oc foam, swallow it, lick his lips and declare it tasty. THAT was a brawl. Some people just don't react like you'd expect.

[magiaaron]

Well, let me give my two cents on this topic as well.

Various aerosols can be effective in partially disabling a threat, and have a number of pros and cons.

Pros:

1) Aerosols can be effective for a long period of time with no additional interaction from the sprayer being required.

2) Due to the blinding and respiratory effects, they can help a civilian escape danger or can assist an officer in wrestling with a subject.

Cons:

1) Aerosols can affect the sprayer as well as or instead of the person intended to be sprayed. If the sprayer is facing a wind, then they are likely to receive the spray on them as well. Or, if the sprayer is wrestling with the subject, then contamination is possible.

2) They are NOT always effective when used correctly.

3) Using aerosols correctly is not as easy as many believe. When trying to spray a moving target, there is a method to the madness, and practice is required. While most people would like to put at least some practice into using a handgun, very few people make any attempt to practice with inert training aerosols or pursue instruction on how to use them. And, on a side note, I do realize that there are lots of people that buy a gun and never train with it.

4) Aerosols become ineffective over time. They need to be replaced every two years or so (as do most defensive weapons). However, people tend not to replace them because they don't consider this necessity. In a life and death confrontation, the last thing someone needs to do is waste precious seconds struggling to activate a device that then fails to function.

Taser devices are, in my opinion, much more effective for the LEO or civilian in most cases.

A TASER is a specific device manufactured by TASER International, Inc. (http://www.taser.com) That is a TASER. Many people confuse other electroshock weapons with TASERs.

TASERs are devices which resemble handguns in shape and contain a battery pack in the handle. In the forward section of the TASER is a cartridge which contains a small explosive charge and two probes tethered to the gun by a length of insulated wire. The length of the wire depends on which model of weapon you are looking at that is produced by the company.

Here is how the TASER weapons operate:
When the weapon is fired, a small explosive charge propels the probes out of the gun toward the target. One probe is shot from the gun along a level plane. The other is shot at a slightly downward angle which I believe is around 15°. I could easily be wrong on how many degrees this is, so if someone knows better, please correct me. When the probes strike the target, they embed themselves into the skin of the person, or in some cases, become stuck in the clothing depending on the thickness of the clothing. For example, if someone is not wearing a shirt or is wearing only a shirt or sweater, then it is likely the person will have the probes in their skin. If, however, the person is wearing a heavy winter jacket and a sweater, it is a safe bet that the probes will remain in the clothing. Regardless, if the probes lodge in the skin or are within a reasonable distance to the skin, the electricity will be sent from the battery pack within the device and be sent via the wires to the probes. At that point, any muscles between the two probes will not function correctly for as long as the electricity is flowing. As a standard, TASERs are set to run for five (5) seconds per trigger pull. A subject can be continually tasered for much longer if the officer/citizen continues to pull the trigger as it will reset the clock to 5 seconds on each pull. If compliance is achieved, the device has a manual thumb safety, which when activated, will turn the device off and can prematurely interrupt the 5 second tase.

It is VERY important to note that once a TASER is no longer sending electricity into a subject, the subject will instantly regain control of their motor functions and can then be a threat once again. Also of concern is shot placement. As the muscles between the probes is what is effected, a shot where both probes strike an arm is going to be painful, but cannot guarantee compliance from a subject. A strike to the midsection, however, with a probe lodged near the chest and one in the lower midsection WILL drop a subject without fail.

Despite what has been said, nobody is immune to a TASER when the probes penetrate the skin and when the shot is placed correctly.

Among other devices that are often confused with TASERs are stun guns. Stun guns are hand held devices which must be physically held against a subject. They are quite painful, but they are not physically incapacitating the way a TASER is. For reference, it is possible to use a TASER in this way as well. By removing the "probe pack" from the front of the taser device, a TASER user then has a stun gun. The TASER will not have the same debilitating effects as normal when used without a "probe pack," and will resemble a stun gun in effectiveness.

TASERs are certainly the most effective non-lethal weapons available for use against a single adversary as they can gain immediate compliance from a subject. They are also quite helpful to the new user as they have laser sights and an LED flashlight built in to assist with identifying/aiming at a target. Aerosols and stun guns certainly do have their uses though. The relatively high cost of TASER devices can be prohibitively expensive for many users. Aerosols and stun guns can fill this role. And, having been dry-stunned with a TASER (dry-stun refers to a TASER that is being used without probe pack as a regular stun gun), I can assure you that regular stun guns are DEFINITELY painful, and many would-be aggressors are likely to be dissuaded by the display of electricity jumping between contact points that occurs on many stun guns. I know I would be. And, heck, I'd even run from OC spray if I saw a determined person aiming it in my direction. ANY show of force is better for a citizen (if they are indeed beyond any route of escape or de-escalation of the situation) than not having one. OC, stun gun, TASER... None can promise an instant stop of aggression. Bad aim, ability of the person to shake off the effects, and the closeness of the individual all contribute to the effectiveness of these weapons. I saw someone referencing what I believe was supposed to be a Springfield XD-45. Something about 13 rounds of .45? Even that isn't necessarily going to produce a stop (but I'd bet it has a high likelihood to). :) Hope all this helps some.

-magiaaron

[Zoogster]

Any person who has worked in prisons for awhile can tell you that many inmates will keep on stabbing eachother drenched in the stuff during a riot situation.

This topic comes up frequently and you only need to browse prior threads to find a lot of discussion.

Here is a video of an officer that gets a good burst of pepperspray right in the face of a stationary individual in an enclosed space (about the best of all worlds in favor of it working). The officer then turns his back on the criminal and walks away getting shot half a dozen times by the criminal.
This just happened earlier this year.
The officer died.
Best overall tool? I don't think so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMT6UV5vYF4

As a civilian spraying a perp, they can use a gun, a knife or anything else sprayed or not. Some people are effected more, some less. Even if it blinds the person and is very painful they do not lose any control over thier actions. It is not too hard to stab or shoot someone a couple feet away from you even if you cannot see or can barely see.
I would classify pepperspray as a pain inducing blinding agent. Nothing more. Useful to reduce the vision of an assailant to give you some advantage or get away. Or as an officer to make someone comply after a time through pain. It is not a defense.