[Jaco]

.32ACP vs .38 Special

A friend and me had a difference of opinion which of a Walther PPK in .32ACP (with a 7 round magazine and 1 up the spout) or a Rossi 5 shot .38 Special snubby is the best for self defense. This is for carrying and home defense, seeing as we can have only one firearm for self defense here.

What would you choose and why - keeping in mind the following:
Both arms are 100% reliable
Both weigh the same
Attacks here are mostly by more than 2 attackers.

And PLEASE dont tell me that a .45 1911 or .50 Browning machine gun is better, we know that ! ;)

[Old Fuff]

Neither handgun is ideal for the purpose you have in mind, but in most places if a criminal encounters an armed victim all they want too do is make tracks - quick! I presume the Walther would be loaded with ball ammunition, in which case stopping an attacker would require very precise bullet placement, which brings into question you're marksmanship skills. What you are really looking at is the question; which is better, a larger cartridge but fewer of them vs. a smaller round with more.

Maybe you could also buy, in addition to the handgun, a shotgun for "hunting" rather then self-defense. It could of course double for a house gun.

[Jaco]

The Walther would be loaded with Silvertips and 75 gr FMJ alternately

[Okiecruffler]

For a while I carried a Kel-tec P32 with a silvertip in the tube and a mag full of fmj. I sure felt alot more secure when I was carrying my Rossi .38 with 5 good HP's.

[Old Fuff]

The Silvertips are a good idea if they feed reliably, but regardless of the ammunition used the .32 is not a powerhouse by any means. A bullet of a certain size and weight can only do so much, and expansion of even the best hollow-points is not certain. I once knew a Major in the SAS who explained at some length that a smaller cartridge could be as deadly as the largest one, but only if the bullet was precisely placed in the right place. To this end he practiced endlessly. Marksmanship under pressure was the key he said, combined with the knowledge of "exactly" where to hit.

[ACP]

A 38 +P is VASTLY superior to any .32 load. I have carried both, as well as .380. Go with the revolver.

[Glamdring]

I would go with the 38 snub. But I would prefer J frame over taurus.

Main reasons for me.

Will reload ammo for revolvers, they don't throw brass all over. So practice more live fire with revolvers.

Dry fire with revolvers make a lot more sense to me than autos (same trigger stroke on dryfire as live fire). And I do a lot of dryfire.

With revolver you have a wide spectrum of loads that will work well. From Glasser safety slugs to hard cast 160 LBT bullets.

[Greybeard]

Ditto what ACP sez ...

[cslinger]

I fall into the 158 grain .38+P group.

If you have fears that the likelyhood of a home invasion by at least two people is high then save up for a nice large capacity shotgun and learn how to use it. 7 rounds to 9 rounds of 12 gauge at point blank range is devestating. Even a short carbine whether a lever action or AR would be nice too.

All that being said I frequently have a 5 shot revolver on or near me and I don't feel underarmed. 158 grain .38 has been getting the job done for a long time.

I have read way too many instances of .32/.25/.380s etc. doing things like hitting a skull and simply riding the skull and lodging just under the skin or only penetrating into the outer layer of skin or fat.

I am not saying it can't happen with a .38+P or a .45 or .44 magnum but I have talked to lots of cops and people who have BTDT and they have seen many more instances of calibers smaller than .38 simply not being effective at all. The smallest I would go would be .380 but it would be ball ammo and hot and I still wouldn't like it.

Now if you can reliably put rounds into the eyes of an approaching target under stress then have at it either way as I am pretty sure a .32 through the eye vs. a .38 through the eye is pretty much a moot point to the poor sod who gets it. :D

I do think you are on to something with that .50 caliber idea though.

[Mike Irwin]

The .38.

No questions asked.

[Jim March]

It's not something most of us would even pause over.

The 38+P 158 lead hollowpoint pulls 820 - 850fps from a 2" tube. You've always got penetration, you've usually got expansion. You will ALWAYS penetrate skull on a frontal brain shot...98% of the time, anyhow.

What that means is: IF you keep your head, and you're very well practiced to start with, and the range isn't too crazy...five rounds CAN equal five dead goblins. Tricky, but not impossible. Against two idiots with, say, machetes, I'd take the snub with good ammo over that 32 any day of the week. Ditto three assailants, four, whatever number you want.

The other thing is, the snub "looks mean". Due to it's use in movies and such, it's "known as a killer"...and that 38 bore looks huge when it's pointed at you.

Small autos don't have that same intimidation power. With good reason - your survival rate is WAY higher.

[Skofnung]

The .38 is the way to go. If the Walther was in .380, I MIGHT change my mind, but as it stands, the .38 is the king in this debate. Get some hot hollow points and you should be good to go.

[David4516]

Does it HAVE to be a walther .32 ACP? Have you thought about getting a Makarov? The Mak is cheaper, the 9mm Makarov round is WAY better than .32 ACP and equal to .38 special. And you get an 8+1 capacity.

[blue86buick]

.38 sp

why? well, as mentioned by Mr. March...you can get a heavy, high powered, well tried and trusted round...or a little pocket BUG round. I'm not a revolver guy, but if I could carry it well, i would definitly take a .38+P HP over any .32 ACP. You can only get so much power out of a .32, and it's so much smaller than a 38...more intimidating too :). .380 vs .38 is still leaning towards .38, again, because of the +P HP power and feeding reliability (NO worries). And as someone else mentioned, it's a LOT easier to hold on to your brass so you can reload for cheap, and practice often.

[firestar]

This is one of the rare instances where I would choose power over capacity.

I have owned and carried both and the .38spl is not even in the same power class as the .32 acp. I don't care what the energy tables show, the .38 is going to do far more damage much more quickly than a .32acp.

Put the two cartridges side by side just to see what you are really comparing. I know that isn't a great test but you will be shocked at the size difference.

The .32 is no joke but it isn't really a cal most people would choose as a primary. Most people who carry .32acp, carry only FMJs do to the possibility of rimlock with JHPs. The FMJ wil give you more penetration anyway and I think you need penetration in a cal this small anyway. The .32 will penetrate quite well but I doubt it will cause much shock to the target.

I would go with the .38 everytime!

[Al Thompson]

Not so fast... Folks, he's in Africa. Jaco, what sort of ammo can you get for the .38? If the only .38 ammo available is ball, the quick reload for the Walther may be better. If you can get a good HP, the .38 looks better.

[firestar]

South Africa? I think I know where your comming from now. Attacks by more than 2 people at a time? Sounds serious, maybe a .32 with several extra clips would be an asset in that role.

[Jim March]

In South Africa, either of these should be a backup :uhoh:.

Primary should be a high-cap 40 or 10mm. And yes, Jim is hereby recommending an auto, possibly the first time on THR...for the *primary* in South Africa. Nowhere else in the world are you as likely to be attacked by a mob or gang. Or both at once :eek:. A 45 or high-cap 9mm with very good ammo will do, but probably isn't optimal. (The user's hand size will be a factor in the decision.)

The 38 should definately be kept around both as "last ditch" and "very good in a close-range mess". A strong case can be made that it should be the FIRST gun you grab for, transitioning to bigger/highercap as the need arises. The reason being, a lot of problems begin at "bad breath range" and the "lowly snubby" is unmatched for such a "ballistic knife-fight".

If proper situational awareness lets you spot serious trouble coming from a distance, then you'll have time to grab the "major fighting handgun" and start with that. If situational awareness fails, you want a fast-handling, fast-DRAW little snub. It should be in a fast-access holster (strongside hip, perhaps IWB but NOT TUCKED) and it should *always* be worn there, even if you're not "expecting trouble". The larger piece can be worn in a shoulder rig or other slightly-slower-access setup.

The 32? Sell it. :rolleyes:.

[Old Fuff]

Jim:

I'm not sure Jaco has any of the options we do. Re-read his message. He is well aware there are better weapons then the ones he mentioned, but he specifically points out that for example - a 1911 .45 is out of the question. What he needs too know is how to "do best" with what is available. In this country we are indeed fortunate. Unfortunately Jaco isn't here.

[braindead0]

Take both, or carry 3 .38's.... or a .38 and two .32's...

[10-Ring]

Hands down the 38 ;)

[Majic]

I vote for the power of the .38sp over the capacity of the .32acp.

[firestar]

And PLEASE dont tell me that a .45 1911 or .50 Browning machine gun is better, we know that !

Why can't people answer the question that was asked? We do all know that a .38 or a .32 isn't the best choice but that seems to be all he has to work with for whatever reason.

Sticking strickly with the two guns and two calibers he mentioned, what would be the best choice? At first I said the .38 snubbie like most of you but then I found out he lives in S.A. where riots and racial violence are a serious theat to his life. After 5 shots of the .38, he is out of ammo and may not be able to reload in time to stop the assult from a mob. A .32 that can be reloaded in a few seconds would give him something to shoot for longer and a .32 is not a worthless caliber. A .32acp is FAR more powerful than a .22 and will kill people. Most mobs will avoid someone that has a gun and is shooting at them, they will attack an unarmed person or someone with a empty .38 quicker than someone with a re-loaded and still firing .32acp. That is why I would rather have more bullets than more power.

In America, the chances of being attacked by a mob are less so I would choose a .38 snubbie.

[zeke]

Might want to consider the repeat accuracy of either. Some people have difficulty getting off accurate (even short range) double action firing from 38 snub with full powered rounds. The Walther may also be much quicker to reload for some.

[Baba Louie]

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, given the limitations imposed (you didn't say anything about reloads tho' didya? :D ), I'd hafta look at just
how many potential attackers I had to keep away... 2 is one thing, 3 or more, another.

8 rds. is more than 5, reloading is somewhat simplified with the semi... but its just such a small pill of lead... 2 rds. of .32/miscreant vs. 1 ea. of .38...

hmmmm 2 of 75 gr. vs. 1 of 158 gr., hmmmm...

...more than 2 attackers...

.38+p

Adios

[Al Thompson]

Well Baba, the whole point is the ammo. If he can get good HP ammo for the .38, it's open and shut. If he can't, the difference in penetration is zilch. That's where the spare magazine or three for the .32 comes into play. As soon as we gett a reply on ammo availability, we can make better recommendations. :)

[zxc]

Leaning towards 2 of each, either the 32 or 38s,
BUG scenario. If pressed Id take the auto + xtra mags.

[Zip06]

The question for me is simple: Higher ballistic power and better ammo selection vs the ability to reload quickly. Assuming shooting skills are the same with either pistol I would go for the quick reloading advantage of the .32 and at least two extra mags.

[Parker Dean]

I too lean towards the .38. With speedloaders and practice I don't see that an autoloader would have such an advantage that it would offset the greater power of the .38 +P. HKS says their 36A is for the Rossi 68 and 88. I couldn't find a detailed listing for the Safarilands that I prefer.

Also if the BG's travel in pairs I would think it would be advantageous for the GG's to pair up too.

[bookman]

For a long time all I carried was a PP 32 and got real good with it,.All you have to do is Practice,Practice and more Practice.Make the shot's count and were it will hurt the most ..Now I am useing a 9mm BUT I still at time's go back to the PP as my only and I have been thinking about makeing it full time and geting rid of the 9....I am just better with the 32.....

[sm]

This is for carrying and home defense, seeing as we can have only one firearm for self defense here.

I would be concerned about ammo choices also.

My natural tendency is gun fit to shooter, ammo choice reliable everytime in that gun in a large enough caliber to afford quick accurate hits.

---


Primary should be a high-cap 40 or 10mm. And yes, Jim is hereby recommending an auto, possibly the first time on THR...for the *primary* in South Africa.

Jim,... Jim... you OK?...good advice, but I thought my eyes had deceived me...

[Jaco]

I got to ask the question after a discussion with a friend of mine, who has a .38 special Rossi 5 shot snubby - Which would be actually the best in our conditions in South Africa? He has that snubby, I have a PPK in .32ACP. Both these guns are obviously not the best for multiple attackers (a lot of attacks are at about 4 to 1, and these 4 are then mostly armed), but which would you prefer? Like I said also - both are completely reliable and the same weight.

Repeating what I stated in my post:
1. Choices between only .38 Special and .32 ACP
2. Good HP ammunition available for all calibers. I carry Silveertips and 75 gr FMJ's in my PPK, and my friend carry a local manufactured +P HP in .38 Special
3. In South Africa you can have only one gun for self defense. I have the PPK, and the only thing better that I can afford now is a .38 Special snubby, which I won't get because of the following:
- I have difficulty in concealing it
- I don't like only 5 shots. I normally carry 2 spare 7-shot magazines with me, and will buy a 10 round mag soon. With a attack by 4 people 5 rounds can get used up very quickly.
- The OSS ratio of the calibers don't differ that much
- I'm not good at DA shooting. Prefer hitting with the .32 vs missing with the .38
- A snubby doesn't have a safety. The biggest pro of a sfatey here is that a BG have to figure it out before he can use your own gun on you.

[sm]

Jaco,
I'm going to go out on a limb after your last post.
(not a new thing-trust me)

You have a gun you have confidence in and practice with. You seem to have some good ammo that is reliable everytime, and you carry spare mags. I can respect your choice of the .32ACP. Only one gun and to have spend additional monies for a snub.

I'd stick with your present choice, use the monies for ammo to practice, and any other accessories needed, like additional mags, holsters and the like.

I really hate your in such a predictament.

Best to you, stay safe, watch six.

[Lone_Gunman]

Most responders here have compared the 32 ACP to the 38 Special +P...

The 5 shot Rossi probably is not +P rated, so you are stuck with standard pressure 38.


Standard pressure 38 is still going to beat 32, but not by as much margin.

[444]

.....at least to me.

I recently attended the Gunsite 250 Basic Defensive Handgun course. This was my second course at Gunsite and for both courses, the facility provided a notebook filled with good information on everything from Lead exposure, to firearms safety, to more in-depth information on the course material. In both notebooks there were very interesting ballistic studies pertaining to the weapon you are training on. In this class obviously the information pertained to handgun cartridges. The studies were carried out at the California Highway Patrol Academy Weapons Training Department Indoor firing Range by Gary K. Roberts, DDS who is a Lieutenant Commander in the U.S. Naval Reserve, performing wound ballistic research and combat casualty care training. One such study included in this material was entitled; Terminal Performance of .38 Special and .380 ACP Hollow Point Bullets Intended for Law Enforcement Back-up and Off Duty Self-Defense Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant. Acceptable perfromance was arbitrarily defined as meeting both a minimum penetration of 12.0" and expansion of .55". Weapons used were a Colt Mustang Pocket Lite, S&W 60-3 with a 3" barrel and a S&W Model 38 with a 2" barrel.
Boiled down to a nutshell, the study found that All of the .380 ACP JHP bullets tested offered generally inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration, as well as inadequate expansion. In .38 Special however, he found that The .38 Special bullets which offered the most reliable wounding effects for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use in revolvers of two and three inch barrel lengths and were most likely to provide rapid incapacitation were the Remington +P 158 grain LSWCHP (R38S12) and Winchester +P 147 grain JHP (RA38147HP). The Federal +P+ 147 grain "Hydra-Shok" JHP (P38HS2) bullet offers outstanding performance in revolvers with at least a 3" barrel, but should not be used in 2" barrel weapons due to insufficient expansion. The Winchester +P 138 grain JHP (SXTS35P) bullet offers acceptable performance in 2" barrel revolvers, but should not be used in longer barrel lengths due to insufficient bullet penetration.

I realize this is not .32 ACP, but I think this gives some food for thought.