Double Standards for Google


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FCoelho
July 11, 2003, 11:42 AM
Hello,

Thought I’d share an interesting experience I just had with Google…

With the launch of our website I thought it would be a great idea to purchase key words from Google. The way that works is you set up an account with Google AdWords and then pick key words or phrases that you feel your site falls under. When a person using Google types in a word or phrase your company then appears on the top of the right side of the screen under “Sponsored Links”. If the person then clicks on your ad you pay for that click through. Sounds simple enough so we came up with some key words and phrases to see what kind of response we would receive.

The new ad campaign went live and we started watching it to see if it was worth the trouble and cost. No sooner was our campaign up and running when I noticed it was gone. That was followed by an interesting e-mail from Google. Turns out they felt that some of our keywords did not meet their guidelines. Specifically the terms: Ammo, Gun accessories, and folding knives. Further in their e-mail it said the following…

-> Content: At this time, Google policy does not permit the
advertisement of websites that contain "blowguns, ammunition with
propellant (such as gunpowder), blank ammunition, Gun part/hardware:
(clips, magazines, receivers, stocks, barrels, buttplates, grips,
mount, forends, and handguards)". As noted in our advertising terms and
conditions, we reserve the right to exercise editorial discretion when
it comes to the advertising we accept on our site.

-> Keywords: Google Policy does not permit the advertisement of "ammo,
gun accessories, folding knives". It isn’t permitted in ad text or
keywords. We have therefore disabled the keywords listed above.

They go on to say…

Please read below for definitions of the issues we found:

Unacceptable Content: Google believes strongly in freedom of expression
and therefore offers broad access to content across the web without
censoring search results. Please note that the decisions we make
concerning advertising in no way affect the search results we deliver.

Unacceptable Product as Keyword: Google believes strongly in freedom of
expression and therefore offers broad access to content across the web
without censoring search results. Please note that the decisions we
make concerning advertising in no way affect the search results we
deliver.

Wow, very interesting stance. They are okay with having all kinds of content and sites listed with them but they will not allow certain key words used. I then went back to Google and did a few searches. Turns out we are not the only ones. Under “ammunition” I saw that Federal Cartridge was a sponsor. At least for a little while. About an hour later their ad was gone. Under ‘folding knives” there are four sponsored links. I wonder if their time is running out too.

I just felt that I should pass along this very disturbing situation from Google. I wonder what’s next, no displaying of firearms or ammunition related websites? Hmmmm…

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Tommy Gunn
July 11, 2003, 11:58 AM
We need some pro-2nd Amendment nerds to come up with a better search engine.

It used to be Alta-Vista was the best just a few years ago. I think its time for Google to to fall on the wayside with those other search engines.

Waitone
July 11, 2003, 02:39 PM
I just googled a few terms to see if Adlinks pop up.

Tomahawk is banned

The following had Adlinks pop up:
--sword
--slingshot
--crossbow
--mace
--war axe
--hatchet

Google needs to work on its consistency.

Keep after 'em. Grip loud and long.

Sergeant Bob
July 11, 2003, 03:38 PM
Just for grins I googled "pedophile ssex" (accidently double tapped the "s") to see if they allowed that . It came up with all the XXX sites you could never want to see.

When I corrected the spelling, it was mostly news and research type stuff?

Guns and ammo bad, pedophile sex OK? It appears they are not so "high and mighty as they purport to be.:barf:

braindead0
July 11, 2003, 04:59 PM
You misunderstood the issue. Google indexes everything, it's the 'Ad Links' that they censor. When you searched for "pedophile ssex" it does not return any 'add links' which appear on the right of the page.

For an example search for 'book store' and you'll see a ton of 'sponsered links' on the right.

FCoelho
July 11, 2003, 06:59 PM
Well, it just keeps getting better. After redoing our ads for Google and eliminating the offending words, they came back to us with this…

At this time, Google policy does not permit the
advertisement of websites that contain "airguns and ammunition". As
noted in our advertising terms and conditions, we reserve the right to
exercise editorial discretion when it comes to the advertising we
accept on our site.

There you have it. I think that would fall under the category of "Anti-Gun" don't you?

Standing Wolf
July 11, 2003, 09:04 PM
Google, which practices anti-Second Amendment bigotry, is the search engine I use when all others have failed.

WonderNine
July 11, 2003, 09:11 PM
You guys ought try Teonma!

FCoelho
July 11, 2003, 09:34 PM
I never heard of Teonma. At the risk of coming across ignorant, is this a new search engine?

Telperion
July 11, 2003, 11:12 PM
For those of you interested in why Google is anti-gun, read this article from Wired (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.01/google.html) about its cofounder, Sergey Brin. Here's a choice quote:

Most major companies refer to a detailed code of corporate conduct when considering such policy decisions. General Electric devotes 15 pages on its Web site to an integrity policy. Nortel's site has 34 pages of guidelines. Google's code of conduct can be boiled down to a mere three words: Don't be evil.

Very Star Wars. But what does it mean?

"Evil," says Google CEO Eric Schmidt, "is what Sergey says is evil."

...

The fact that Google accepts advertising for adult content sites is an intriguing commentary on Brin's morality: Cigarettes and booze are evil; porn is not.

There are certainly a few arrogant men here in Silicon Valley, but for Brin to decide he is the sole judge of good and evil is the height of self-righteousness.

tyme
July 11, 2003, 11:38 PM
Not that he's right, but he isn't claiming to be sole judge. He controls Google. He can do whatever he wants with regard to Google's business decisions. He could refuse to do business with the Chinese. He could refuse to do business with companies that help the disabled. Civil rights are not, and should not be, considered in b2b relations.

Teoma is interesting, but when I looked at it last year it was hardly a "one stop search engine." I guess I'd better check it out again.

Orthonym
July 11, 2003, 11:54 PM
Well, what can we do about it?

Telperion
July 12, 2003, 12:09 AM
tyme -- "Sole judge" was excessive. But if you're a Google user, he's judging for you. Ultimately, you're right -- it's (largely) his company, and he can choose to do with it what he wishes.

CGofMP
July 12, 2003, 12:39 AM
http://gunhoo.com/

Enjoy!

Charles

Jeff
July 12, 2003, 01:19 AM
Help is here,

I'm in the process of creating a search engine, with the assistance of some rogue MIT-educated technicians, which will be called Guns, Knives, Liquor, Smokes, Harleys, Sirloin, Tits, Wrestling, M-80s, and Venison Stew.

Do you think the title is too long?

jimpeel
July 12, 2003, 11:06 PM
I use dogpile.com ever since this thread came out on TFL:

Google is with the antis (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74536)

Since that time, there were many other threads on the same subject or which mention the google anti-firearms policies. Most of these have links to other search engines that TFL subscribers have encountered.

*sigh... Google goes anti. (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=104893)

Anti Gun Google and HR Block Petitions - Go sign 'em! (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=104998)

Google boycott mentioned on Techtv (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=107136)

Google Adwords: using the Internet to slaughter the antigun movement (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=121668)

Sometimes you hit the jackpot on Google! (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=122642)

Google prohibits 'laser sights' (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=140916)

sm
July 12, 2003, 11:34 PM
I seldom use google...

I don't know the 2A stance of these, but I use these the most.

http://www.teoma.com/

http://www.altavista.com/

Travis McGee
July 13, 2003, 12:39 AM
So to Google buttblugs and sadism outfits would be okie dokie, but olympic target pistol sights would be a no-no.

What a crazy world we inhabit.

jimpeel
July 13, 2003, 02:44 AM
"buttblugs"? I think you got the "p" upside down.;) :D

Waitone
July 13, 2003, 09:02 AM
So whaddya do when you find out Google is the search engine behind some of the others?

braindead0
July 13, 2003, 09:33 AM
So to Google buttblugs and sadism outfits would be okie dokie, but olympic target pistol sights would be a no-no.

Google will index any site, it indexes mine.. The only issue here is their 'ad links', which I see no problem in them doing what they want with.

Use Google, and never click on any ad links, I see no problem. If nobody used the ad links then they would change their position. There's no sense boycotting Google, there is in boycotting the ad links.

Triad
July 13, 2003, 09:59 AM
Actually it does make sense to boycott Google. It was explained to me that everytime you perform a search, that search is added to the statistics they keep on how many people use their engine. They then use their statistics to convince people to advertise with them. So by not totally boycotting Google you are still giving them business and putting money in their pocket.

jimpeel
July 13, 2003, 12:08 PM
At one of the links I posted above, one of the TFL posters placed the following:If you go to www.copernic.com and download their program, you will learn what real power searching is all about.

It turns out that google, and others, don't even search 10% of the net. Also, most come up with a really poor format of the results.

Copernic uses all the search engines and then ranks them to likely relevance and presents it in a very nice format.

I'm not a salesman for Copernic, just really want others to enjoy it as much as I do.So I went there and downloaded their free basic program and ... YOW!!! This thing is as awsome as he stated.

Sven
July 13, 2003, 01:25 PM
I use Google AdWords for my (non-firearms related) business and it has been the greatest thing we've done in years for sales. We are in a small niche and it is hard for people to find us - not anymore.

I need to eat and pay for rent, so I cannot 'boycott' Google. It is their right to decide how they run their business, and all of our decisions on whether to support them.

Waitone
July 14, 2003, 08:25 PM
I took the advice and downloaded Copernic.

Unbelievable search engine. It leaves Dogpile way behind. Google is a distant memory. Yahoo is a joke

Copernic is all I use now. Truly outstanding product. You can save searches, modify searches, change how results are presented. Highlights key words used in search. Great search file management capabilities. And the Basic version is a freebee.

jimpeel
July 14, 2003, 09:30 PM
I was stunned at the attention to detail that the developers took on this search engine. I will likely purchase the enhanced versions. I really, really, really love the color coded keyword highlights. If you are searching for "firearms deaths germany" it allows you to skip all of the terms that are not in the color you are looking for. And the history function YOW! I love it.

I don't know why I hadn't heard of this program before.

Sergeant Bob
July 15, 2003, 06:42 AM
Got Copernic. Cool layout, pretty slow though. Vendor listings for computer hardware very limited. Listings for most categories limited. History thing is kinda nice. Kind of "AOLish". Alot of stuff "not available in this version" (they want your money). Much of it only available in the Professional version for Only $79.95 US/Euro . Wow! They are really proud of this thing aren't they? Did I mention it was slow and expensive?

veloce851
July 15, 2003, 12:15 PM
I'll second www.teoma.com I've found my searches with them appear to be the same as all google searches.
And they have gun related sponsored links.

Google really needs to see the light.
I only wish we could make a dent in its use.

FCoelho
July 15, 2003, 12:30 PM
I heard today that Yahoo.com is going to buy overture.com. :banghead:

Rangerover
July 15, 2003, 12:44 PM
The Copernic 2000 allegedly contains a spyware program called "FlyCast". However, I can't seem to find out if the latest version (2001? Later?) is infested as well.

I downloaded the free version and couldn't find anything suspicious, but then my "geekdom quotient" isn't up to par with some of you guys out there. I'm rabidly anti-spyware, so if anyone has any details on whether or not Copernic contains any, please let us know. I don't currently run any programs which find spyware on my p.c. (probably should invest in one), so I'm pretty well left to my own humble (yet fiendish) devices.

Like I said, the latest version LOOKS clean and probably doesn't contain any snoopware, but then, you never know.:uhoh:

jimpeel
July 15, 2003, 10:48 PM
I went to Copernic and searched on "copernic spyware" and got a BUNCH of results one of which was: A list of programs infected with spyware (http://home.tvd.be/ws36178/security/spylist.html)

For ways to get rid of spyware go to: Getting rid of spyware (http://www.nwfusion.com/columnists/2001/0521gearhead.html) They speak of a program called Ad-aware which deletes spyware. The company which distributes Ad-aware is Lavasoft. (http://www.lavasoft.de/) The descriptive page for the program is at Ad-aware (http://www.lavasoft.de/software/adaware/) and the download link is on that page.

There is also a program called "Spyware Nuker" that strips out the adware on your computer.

No more 'scuses, Lucy.

Sergeant Bob
July 16, 2003, 07:18 AM
Jimpeel, thanks for the links. The list did say Copernic 2000 was confirmed to be infected with "Flycast".
However, I ran Ad-Aware on the current version and it came up with no hits.

answerguy
July 16, 2003, 07:54 AM
I typed 'concealed carry' into Google and got ads to click on.

Like this one: http://www.holster-connection.com/

c_yeager
July 16, 2003, 09:08 AM
You know so long as you dont click on any of their ad links i dont think google is making any money off your use of it. As such would it be wrong to USE them as a search engine while providing them with no income?

Rangerover
July 16, 2003, 11:52 PM
However, I ran Ad-Aware on the current version and it came up with no hits.

Excellent. I need to purchase Ad-Aware or look into the "Spyware Nuker" that Jimpeel mentioned. It's gotten to the point that one can't download much of anything without some sort of "cybersnoop" program being part of the deal. As far as I'm concerned, programs like that are viruses. They usually plant themselves on our systems without our knowledge (or under the guise of something harmless) and they're doing things we don't want them to do. That's a virus to me.

Anyway, Copernic appears to be a good search engine and it does have some nifty features.

Thanks guys for the info, guys.

jimpeel
July 17, 2003, 01:13 AM
I ran Spyware Nuker and it said I had 955 infected files. It then wanted me to register and send them $29.95 before I could delete the files. I deleted Spyware Nuker instead.

I then ran Ad-aware on the drive and it found 78 results. Guess what program was shown as placing four files on my drive, two of which were data mining files? Spyware Nuker.

Now maybe they did do this or maybe Ad-aware has a search parameter for competitor's files; but I had already uninstalled Spyware Nuker from the drive when Ad-aware found these files.

As for Copernic, there were no files associated with it. Spyware Nuker also found nothing when I ran it.

Sergeant Bob
July 17, 2003, 05:53 AM
Rangerover , Ad-aware is El Freebo! Get it here (http://www.lavasoft.nu/support/download/)

Rangerover
July 17, 2003, 08:13 PM
Guess what program was shown as placing four files on my drive, two of which were data mining files? Spyware Nuker.
Why doesn't this surprise me? It figures. That's why I'm so cautious about downloading ANYTHING that claims to do something "for" or "to" my p.c.

So Ad-Aware is free? Hmmm...that's just within my price range. It STAYS free doesn't it? Not just for the first 30 days? :p Just kidding, I'll check the website when I log off from here. Thanks again, guys.

jimpeel
July 19, 2003, 09:42 PM
Why doesn't this surprise me? It figures. That's why I'm so cautious about downloading ANYTHING that claims to do something "for" or "to" my p.c.I often who is writing the virus programs -- idiots who just like to screw with their fellow man or idiots who stand to gain millions of dollars for selling a cure for the program they initiated? This would be the Hegelian Dialectic in its most classic form.

Hmmm...that's just within my price range.Free is cheap at twice the price. Ad-aware's hook is that they disallow the auto-removal and blocking of files coming in on the sneaker net. The program they supply for free merely discovers and removes the ones that already are on your unit but doesn't prevent more from coming your way.

DeadCalm
July 30, 2003, 02:56 AM
Go to

searchenginewatch.com

to catch some great info and see the spiderweb-like relation among the major players. Down toward the bottom of the article fpr tje Bruce Clay link.
Ross

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