9mm vs .45


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GLOOB
October 5, 2007, 08:16 PM
After reading about glock kb's, I started wondering why the .45 cal would kb, but the 9mm wouldn't. Afterall, the pressure is lower in the .45. I think I read somewhere that the 9mm cartridge has thicker brass in the base, as compared with other pistol rounds.

Seems to me that if this is true, the 9mm is a better platform in terms of reliability/safety from the get go.

So the question is... when do manufacturer's start making .45 brass with thicker walls at the base? Obviously, this means a slightly lower charge or slightly higher pressure. But would this be more reliable?

Mind you, I don't really consider 2 or 3 documented kb's (using reloads) amidst several millions of rounds fired through the glock 21 to be a reliability/safety issue.

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bigred82
October 5, 2007, 08:22 PM
9mm is definately the way to go! Much more superior than the .45.

jamz
October 5, 2007, 08:24 PM
I agree! .45 is far better.

So nearly a trolling thread title ;)

bigred82
October 5, 2007, 08:25 PM
Ignore that bigred82 guy - he's an idiot! Everyone knows that .45 is bigger and better than 9mm! 9mm wouldn't kill a cat. You only need 16 rounds if you're a terrible shot.

.45 > 9mm.


(BTW, most reported Glock KBs are from .40sw reloads where guys didn't pay attention to what they were doing during the reloading process.)


Honestly, what was the objective of this thread? I agree that it sounds like bait, so...

jamz
October 5, 2007, 08:27 PM
Actually if you wanted to know case thickness differences, the reloading forum might be a better place to look. I have a bunch downstairs, I could measure the bases with calipers if I could cut 'em apart.

Hypnogator
October 5, 2007, 08:28 PM
I started wondering why the .45 cal would kb, but the 9mm wouldn't.

Actually, isn't it the .40 S&W that is prone to rapid disassembly of Glocks?

Hauptmann
October 5, 2007, 08:32 PM
Both the 9mm and .45acp have seen reliable service for nearly 100 years now. KBs occur when ammunition is produced outside of standardized specifications. This most often occurs with hand loaded ammunition when a mistake is made. It also occurs occasionally with factory ammunition, but not very often. When it does occur with factory ammunition, the manufacturer will cover the cost of buying you a new pistol, more ammunition, and a sincere appology so that you don't sue them.

To answer your question though, due to .45acp ammunition being much more expensive than 9mm, a lot of people will use reloaded ammunition that they buy online or at guns shows to cut costs. 9mm is fairly inexpensive, thus not a whole lot of ppl shoot reloads in this caliber as compared to .40S&W or .45acp. As I stated, the more reloads you use that don't have a guarantee to back them up the more likely you are to have a KB regardless of the pistol design or calbier.

In regard to the brass of the .45acp, it is just fine given its SAMII specifications of 21,000psi. The brass is thicked to accomidate higher pressure +P loads rated at 23,000psi. .45 Super is rated at 28,000psi.

RevolvingCylinder
October 5, 2007, 10:07 PM
Actually, the issue is usually with the .40 S&W.

Why would ammunition manufacturers change their specs for the supposed shortcomings of one pistol? It's not the specs of the .45 ACP(or .40 S&W) that have been used successfully in many designs that's at fault here.

schmidtundveßon
October 6, 2007, 02:39 PM
Any round can KB if overloaded...
As far as .40 SW Glocks going KB, it might have something to do with unsupported chamber, but I'm no Glock expert, so take this with a grain of salt.


Both the 9mm and .45acp have seen reliable service for nearly 100 years now.

9x19mm was invented in 1902 and .45ACP in 1905, so it's a bit over 100 years.;)

TexasRifleman
October 6, 2007, 02:40 PM
Wow, been a while since a good old fashioned 9 vs 45 thread with no extra BS :)



.45 of course by the way.....

Ragnar Danneskjold
October 6, 2007, 03:22 PM
Here comes the obligatory 1911 fanboy post...

PT-Partners
October 6, 2007, 03:38 PM
Go with what you can control because you cannot miss fast enough if you cannot control it.

A hit with a 9 beats a miss with a 45 any day and conversely a hit with a 45 beats a miss with a 9 anyday.

Personally I like 9mm with a real bullet in it. Do I keep a .45 around, HECK, yes.

But I go with what I shoot or can control better.

I need some work with a .45.

And on the Kb's most all of the rumors were exactly that, but there were issues with reloads causing excessive pressure and the resulting "rapid dissassembly" of the subject handguns.

pogo2
October 6, 2007, 04:03 PM
After reading about glock kb's, I started wondering why the .45 cal would kb, but the 9mm wouldn't. Afterall, the pressure is lower in the .45. I think I read somewhere that the 9mm cartridge has thicker brass in the base, as compared with other pistol rounds.

The barrel of a gun contains the bulk of the pressure (in a radial direction), not the brass of the cartridge. Look at the thickness of the steel barrel compared to the thickness of a brass cartridge case.

Glock "kabooms" have often been attributed to a thin crescent of unsupported brass at the 6 o'clock position where the steel barrel is cut away somewhat to enhance feeding. At that point the brass case is not well supported by the barrel and the internal pressure can rupture the brass case wall because it doesn't have the steel barrel backing it up.

Blarelli
October 6, 2007, 04:13 PM
I prefer the .50 bmg bolt action pistol. Small, easy to conceal, and after you shoot a guy, you can claim it was him instead of the gun that broke your wrist. Proof of attack. yeah, it is definitely the best choice for personal protection

S&Wfan
October 6, 2007, 04:17 PM
I've "only" seen two pistols blow up in years of competitions. Both were Glock Model 17s. Then again, unsupported chambers in any caliber can be more prone to ruining a good day at the range and blow a plastic frame to hell.

As to what is better . . . a well-placed .22 LR bullet beats ANY round you miss with.

I prefer big, heavy handgun bullets that will make the largest wound channel . . . for all handgun bullets are underpowered vs. centerfire rifle bullets!!!

For hunting, that means 300 grain hardcast, flat-nose bullets in .44 Magnum from a wheelgun.

For defense, that means a 230 grain hollowpoint in .45ACP in a bottom feeder or a wheelgun.

I've owned 9mm handguns but have never truly felt as good carrying one, vs. toting a .45ACP or a .357 magnum for defense.

Lonestar49
October 6, 2007, 04:26 PM
...

Shot placement wins the day..

But, 45cal has more punch, bar none, but 9mm cost a lot less to shoot, and will do the job. That, I have no-doubts about.

Your pick, Springfield 1911 EMP 9mm, or Colt Defender 45.


http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/Picture140.jpg

But, whatever you wind up choosing, enjoy, with a a lot of practice.. :)



LS

CDignition
October 6, 2007, 04:33 PM
Both are good..Neither are as good as a rifle round.

I know that I don't want to get shot with either of them. Nor a 22.

As for the KB Issue, I don't know the stats on Factory ammo KB events. I don't like the 40 round at all, it is problematic and just a little change in OAL can double the pressure. To me it is a solution looking for a problem. That said, if you like it, them by all means use it. Personal Preference is everything here in the USA.

cajun47
October 7, 2007, 12:22 AM
+1 for 9mm

Bullet
October 7, 2007, 03:07 AM
GLOOB
So the question is... when do manufacturer's start making .45 brass with thicker walls at the base? Obviously, this means a slightly lower charge or slightly higher pressure. But would this be more reliable?

They already have. It’s called 45GAP.

10-Ring
October 7, 2007, 03:50 AM
:rolleyes: I've seen all kinds of guns kaboom, in all kinds of calibers :rolleyes: Just get the caliber you prefer in the platform you like & start training w/ your equipment! ;) If it breaks, get another one!

antediluvianist
October 7, 2007, 05:57 AM
Nothing beats a .38 snub.

76shuvlinoff
October 7, 2007, 09:07 AM
Many moons ago I watched a buddy blow up a 9mm Smith, yes a "real steel" gun. Later on he wrecked his 223 the same way so I immediately ruled both those weapons out as anything I would EVER have. :eek:

So .45 is better :neener:

boomstik45
October 7, 2007, 09:23 AM
If it's which Glock to get, you're better served in the long run by getting the 9mm. It will last longer and has potential to be absolutely problem free. The .45 versions are nice, but more prone to having problems. But that's if you're a guy who's going to shoot thousands and thousands of rounds. If not, go with either. WARNING: 9mm is simply cheaper to shoot. Both will serve you well in defense of your life if used properly.

kolob10
October 7, 2007, 12:14 PM
My preference is 45 ACP. I own and shoot 9mm's but if my life depends on it, the 45 ACP will get the nod every time. I also trust the 40 S&W and 10mm.

76shuvlinoff
October 7, 2007, 02:16 PM
"Many moons ago I watched a buddy blow up a 9mm Smith, yes a "real steel" gun. Later on he wrecked his 223 the same way so I immediately ruled both those weapons out as anything I would EVER have. "

"So .45 is better"


And the above was said in jest

Gustav
October 7, 2007, 03:02 PM
I have and will trust both the 9mm and .45ACP Glock I worry much less about the pistol having a KB than the exact ammunition I am loading in my pistol.
Any rifle pistol or shotgun under the right or wrong conditions can have an oopsie with improper ammuntion.
Two examples I experienced one was in a Galil a rifle that is built like a tank and able to supposedly have small Volkswagens driven over it while eating sand rocks and bullets for breakfast.
Add gun show purchased reloads and a new shooter and it was a recipe for an oopsie ouchie lets see what happened.
Case head seperation at its worst with the damaged top cover flying off and the bolt jammed all the way solid, never seen brass disintegrate(sp) like that before.
Second time was a nice Smith & Wesson firing it in a PPC match one load fired in a string was a squib load it was the fifth round but the sixth round behind it wasn't:eek:, oops hey barrels are meant to be changed right?
Allot of Glocks are out there and many people shoot cast bullets or reloads in them and even once in a while the factory ammo can have a glitch so KBs can and will happen.
I now and for many years carefully inspect each and every round I shoot (if possible weighing each one first on a scale) going through my ammo long before range day and only once inpsected does it go back in the box or range bag.

Big Boomer
October 7, 2007, 07:13 PM
That was a little biased heading :D

But pro's and con's

45 Pro's

Bigger hole. A non expanded 45 is just as big as an expanded 9

More momentum = theoretical more damage this is why we don't shoot intruders with birdshot

Lower pressure = less stress on the firearm

Shot placement is often much better depending on platform.

There is a much wider selection of 1911's in .45 :p

Lower pressure = brass will usually last longer for reloads

Larger hole = more blood flow, easier to track ;)

I'm sure there are more...

9mm Pro's

Faster firing (a little bit) now if you consider that most people run hot +p or +P+ in their 9's then this really becomes moot point again.

Higher capacity you get an extra 3-4 rounds in a similar sized gun

depending on bullet weight possibly better sectional density

9mm tupperware is vastly more pretty than those old steel 45's and thus retain their value much more and are really seen as long term collectors items

lighter weight when fully loaded

cheaper to shoot plinking ammo (factory)

If you are too poor to own a 45 then this is a good option

Flatter shooting trajectory depending on bullet weight, moot point with most SD encounters

for the same size diameter bullet why not choose a .357 sig especially since most shoot +p or +P+ anyhow? but that is a different topic

9mm +P+ rounds have much more power equal to the 45 but because of its caliber has no increased recoil well ya know because it's a 9!

Gangsters like to bust caps with their 9's seems to be pretty popular with them

It is by far a superior round, this is why 90% (or more) of the law enforcement agencies across the country dropped the 9mm in favor of something bigger and slower because as we all know that they hated having all that stopping power at their disposal. 9mm would literally blow people apart and this was just not PC with the public and caused so many more leo's lives to be saved and that was just not cool with the criminal community. Therefore larger, slower, less effective weapons were needed.

Not as loud I and possibly less muzzle flash

9mm sarcasm is free/45 sarcasm can cost you friends

45 Cons


Ammo is heavier

Ammo is more expensive

Looking down the bigger bore is less intimidating to would be thugs :rolleyes:

45 is old and outdated

45 is the largest concealable automatic pistol caliber

the 9mm is more Tacticool than the 45

9mm supporters always say shot placement is king but that only applies to 9mm shooters, 45 shooters couldn't possibly hit the broad side of a barn, with the size of bullet that is coming out the end of the barrel!

Recoil is so bad from a 45 it is reported to break your wrist or tear your arm off.

The blast from the 45 is said to be heard for miles deafening all those in close proximity for days...

45's are very unpopular these days as being such a poor caliber that no one would consider buying them anymore

9mm Cons

9mm is neither the most potent round in it's relative caliber but is not the weakest so the more powerful 9mm round is vastly less accurate that the .380 because recoil is so much more and shot placement means everything, we should just all pack .380's all day long. We can't possible get off the first shot as accurately as any other caliber because the lowest recoil is always the most accurate.

9mm tupperware is vastly more pretty than those old steel 45's and thus retain their value much more and are really seen as long term collectors items





Depending on the platform you can still get high cap 45's it's not the old 7rds versus 17 thing. Its 13 vs 17 4 shots different? Alright I guess you can get those uber extended mags that you can't possibly find for a 45... If you have to get up to 10 rounds into a bg to put him down with either caliber your shot placement sucks!

In addition to the small and fast vs big and slow is that your first shot is really the only one that counts after that numerous things can happen and do, including but not limited to your target running like they are being shot at, if in a group others engaging at the same time. You will have but one opportunity to make it count and that is always going to be the first shot. So I have to ask this, if you only had ONE shot would you choose 9mm or 45? I personally could make the same shot placement for the first shot in either caliber in most guns almost identical.

In regards to "rapid fire" and shot placement I can empty 14 rds COM in about 2-3 seconds, that is expecting that of course as stated above that your target is just going to stand there and take it :rolleyes: with a 9 you could get off a couple of extra shots in the same time frame as stated above again BFD

If you really want high cap and low recoil uberfast rounds then just go for a Five-seveN or does that put a ding in the ego of the 9 lovers? But then again I can shoot my .22 far faster and will less recoil than any of my other handguns and and can hit a fly at 10 paces. Energy and momentum are meaningless and overrated. People shot with 22's fall down stone cold dead on the first shot even better than the 9mm!

So if I haven't ticked off all the 9 lovers yet I guess I'll just have to quit and move to Britain. :neener:

shu
October 7, 2007, 08:01 PM
Well, I'm glad this important issue has at last been brought up for discussion.

Air,Land&Sea
October 7, 2007, 08:04 PM
Deleted. Not THR material.

Hauptmann
October 7, 2007, 08:15 PM
This is starting to sound like Glock Talk.

Tom Servo
October 7, 2007, 08:50 PM
The Almighty .45ACP as God and John Moses Browning Intended creates unparalleled energy through the sheer Biblical Force of its Awesomeness. In fact, a single .45ACP round will not only stop an attacker, it will create a rift in the space/time continuum so large that the attacker never even existed in the first place.

That helps come grand jury time. No body to tie you to the shooting.

The 9mm is okay, I guess, but I had a friend who knew someone who once read on the internet that a 9mm bullet will just make Chuck Norris angry.

Seriously, both are wonderful rounds, but you need to remember two things:

a) shot placement is everything, and

b) it's a handgun.

Nothing out a handgun gives "knockdown power." Nothing out of a handgun generates the type of force that "throws a dude across the room."

The handgun is a weapon of last resort, when diplomacy has failed and more effective ordnance isn't immediately available.

meef
October 7, 2007, 08:59 PM
I take it all back.

Stephen A. Camp
October 7, 2007, 10:49 PM
The original post didn't seem to be addressing the "stopping power" aspects of the two rounds:

"After reading about glock kb's, I started wondering why the .45 cal would kb, but the 9mm wouldn't. Afterall, the pressure is lower in the .45. I think I read somewhere that the 9mm cartridge has thicker brass in the base, as compared with other pistol rounds.

Seems to me that if this is true, the 9mm is a better platform in terms of reliability/safety from the get go.

So the question is... when do manufacturer's start making .45 brass with thicker walls at the base? Obviously, this means a slightly lower charge or slightly higher pressure. But would this be more reliable?

Mind you, I don't really consider 2 or 3 documented kb's (using reloads) amidst several millions of rounds fired through the glock 21 to be a reliability/safety issue."

If the thread is to continue, let's return to the focus of the initial post.

Thanks.

BlindJustice
October 7, 2007, 11:14 PM
Yawn, ok...

Took me halfway through the Never Ending Story ( Stoopid Debates always keep coming up like bell peppers ) to figger out
*** KB stood for

Homer Simpson
DOH! KB = Kah Boom
/HOmer SImpson ( smack forhead >
I think the use of acrnyms should be considered as unclear to

Pedantic Anal Retentive (AR) Prof
Many newbies or perhaps your acronym varies from region to region
OH let me illustrate *** = WHat THe Frick well close enough
written in a technical paper the correct form is What The Frick (***)
then for the rest of your paper you can have free use in the acronym
that has been implisitly stated.
.Pedantic AR Prof. <-- It;s an Abbreviation!!!

But Seriously,

Observations and comment for the throughly cornfuzed :

* Interesting somebody said .45 Super is 28,000 PSI
.45 SUper is .45 Winchester Magnum shortened right?

FYI I read .400 CorBon is estimated at 26,500
A necked down .45 ACP case with a 25 degree angle
shoulder to .400 caliber to headspace on the shoulder

* after somone else stated .45 ACP is 21,000
& .45 +P is 24,000

* also somone mentioned that .45 GAP has a thicker brass
base I would add it is a shorter case length to operate in
guns designed for the shorter 9mm as well as .40 S&W pistols

* .45 GAP - stands for Glock Automatic, Pistol
( .45 ACP stands for Automatic Cartridge, PIstol )
this is probably true but it has to be loaded to +P
pressure in order to DUPLICATE not exceed the velocities
generated by standard pressure .45 ACP rounds.

/Pirate talking with a Cowboy
Arrrr at the Battl of Trafalgar , Admiral
Nelson got his arm blown clean off?

I Bet it was one of those high velocity
Frenchie cannons, hawrkkkkk <Pah tooeey
SPIT> heard of them...
.Pirate talking with Cowboy

wait this isn't Cowboy shooting

Let's check prices of 500 pak new brass
from Starline for some of the rounds mentioned
above as well as one most don't think of... in order of price

After all what they stamp on it isn't a variable cost
it is a fixed cost so the divfference in price I would
think be related
1) amount of material
& 2) Demand to a certain degree

.45 ACP ---- $ 74.95
45 GAP ---- $ 77.00
.45 Auto RIm $ 79.10
.45 ACP +P $ 79.95
.45 Colt ----- $ 81.40 ( .38 longer than .45 Auto RIm )
.45 Super --- $ 92.10
.400 CorBon -- $ 82.15 (factor in higher cost to form shoulder )
( .45 Win Mag $ 97.10 ( longer than .45 Super ok...)

Thoughts

* AUto RIm is the rimmed case of the same length as ACP to
fire in the S & W and other WHeel guns. It has a thicker than normal
rim in order to place the primer at the same distance that the moon
clips occupy. It is a stronger case but the pussies at SAAMI rate it a
14,000 PSI

* the Colt round is only $ 1.45 more than AUto RIm because
while .38 of an inch longer the rim is only .045 inch while the
Auto RIm is .0775

* ACP +P is $ 5 more than ACP = more material in the base

( forming the shoulder of .400 CorBon is more time consuming and
adds a step or two in forming the brass case = more cost

That Super and WIn Mag cost more is probably related to low demand

Comments?

oh, to throw a bone to the little yappy dog

.380 Auto ---- $ 59.00
9MM Parabellum $ 61.95
9MM +P ----- $ 63.15
.40 S & W --- $ 69.95
.30 Luger ------ $ 80.10 ( forming the shoulder takes time it's
.357 Sig ------- $ 80.75 at least a two steps in forming the shoulder ! )
.30

Big Boomer
October 7, 2007, 11:21 PM
and I thought I wrote a book! But honestly, as long as you carry SOMETHING I'll be happy. :)

Try em both shoot what you like, just remember if your are going to carry it would you bet your life on it?

Happy Hunting

Obiwan
October 7, 2007, 11:31 PM
all the service pistol calibers (9mm and above) with good ammo can and will get the job done

Their relative performance in terms of penetration and expansion are so close that you should all spend more time shooting and less time worrying about caliber

All handguns are pitiful popguns and multiple accurate hits will likely be required to end a threat

I think a platform that you can operate well is much more imprtant than caliber

Checkman
October 7, 2007, 11:36 PM
Oh sweet Jesus. I do believe that dead horse is stinking because it is rotting.:rolleyes:

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