Crazy guy stabs people in NY - off-duty cop shoots him


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security6
October 7, 2007, 12:46 PM
From: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/10/07/2007-10-07_woman_fights_for_life_after_psycho_goes_.html


A shirtless madman wielding stolen knives went on a bloody midtown rampage yesterday - stabbing a restaurant worker and a psychologist walking her dog before being shot by an off-duty cop, authorities said.

Deranged Lee Coleman stood wild-eyed over the dog-walker, methodically plunging a knife into her body and face over and over - even pausing to change knives as the woman lay in a pool of blood, screaming for help.

The crazed mental patient got into several confrontations while running up Second Ave. near 35th St. before he took aim at Susan Barron, 67, who was walking to church to have her dog blessed, sources said.

Barron, who lives in the neighborhood, was stabbed at least 10 times in the face, neck, arms and abdomen, leaving her badly mutilated, witnesses said. She was rushed to Bellevue Hospital in critical condition.

"He was chopping down on her," said Andrew Fink, 29, who was getting into a cab when the attack took place. "I saw him hit her at least 10 times. She was screaming and crawling along the street and people were running away.

"It looked like she was trying to crawl into the intersection. She was crying out in pain. He looked very intent. He was systematically bringing the weapon down on her."

Police said Coleman, 38, has a history of mental illness and has been in and out of psychiatric clinics. He was off his medication, sources said.

He has prior arrests in Georgia in 2001 for child abandonment, assault, theft and receiving stolen property. He was also arrested in 2004 in New Jersey, but police were unclear on the charges.

Coleman's frenzy along Second Ave. began shortly before the 10:40 a.m. stabbing. His first stop was Starbucks on 32nd St., where staff caught him rifling through drawers behind the counter, police said.

He left empty-handed and walked a few blocks north to a deli, engaging in an argument with a person there.

Coleman then walked to Texas Smokehouse restaurant. He asked to use the bathroom, but instead went behind the counter and stole four knives.

Chef Amarjit Singh, 56, was slashed across the face and neck as he tried to stop Coleman, police sources said.

Singh fled the restaurant onto Second Ave. followed by Coleman, who came face-to-face with Barron at the corner of 35th St. and, without warning, turned the knives on her.

Barron - wearing a neck brace from a recent accident - fell to the ground, holding her cane in one hand and her black Scottish terrier, Velvet, on a leash in the other, but the attack continued.

Coleman was seen standing over Barron, stabbing her and slashing her body "like a piece of meat," sources said. "He had so many knives that he had to put some down on the ground" while he stabbed her with others.

Despite being badly injured, Singh returned to the scene as Barron was being attacked, rushed into the restaurant and grabbed towels and aprons to stem her bleeding.

An off-duty NYPD Transit cop, Gregory Chin, who was on vacation and had been eating at the Gemini diner near where the attack took place, spotted the mayhem and intervened.

"Drop it, drop it, drop the f------ knife," he screamed at Coleman, a police source said.

Coleman ignored Chin's order and advanced aggressively, wielding the knives, forcing the cop to fire one round with his off-duty weapon, hitting Coleman in the stomach.

Two bridge-and-tunnel officers helped wrestle Coleman to the ground, where he continued to resist arrest after he was wounded, witnesses said.

"Clearly this guy [Chin] is a hero," said Allan Chapin, 66, who witnessed events from the diner window. "This guy saved a few lives. He [Coleman] was wrestling like crazy, and it took four policemen to subdue him and get the cuffs on."

Coleman had been especially upset over an ongoing problem with a girlfriend, sources said.

Family members met with Coleman Friday night and convinced him to see a psychiatrist, sources said. But Coleman bolted as relatives tried to shuffle him into a car to drive him to the doctor.

Singh was hospitalized at Bellevue in serious but stable condition, while Coleman was in stable condition at the same hospital. Coleman was charged with attempted murder, assault and criminal possession of a weapon.

Chin was given a sobriety test - which he passed - under a new and controversial NYPD policy introduced last Sunday.

I find it ironic that the cop, who was carrying a gun off-duty, was called a hero while it is illegal for almost all non-LEOs to carry a gun.

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Biker
October 7, 2007, 01:17 PM
And he only shot once...damn shame.

How many people just watched while this was happening, I wonder?

Biker

lacoochee
October 7, 2007, 01:27 PM
Aside from the obvious, people should be able to defend themselves properly when needed.

I am still reeling from the last line in the article.

Chin was given a sobriety test - which he passed - under a new and controversial NYPD policy introduced last Sunday.

Has the city of Bloomberg really sunk this low? So if he had a couple of beers while eating in the restaurant he would have had to sit this one out?:banghead:

RockyMtnTactical
October 7, 2007, 01:31 PM
:eek:

nhhillbilly
October 7, 2007, 01:42 PM
Agreed why did he only shoot one round. You shoot until they are no longer a threat. I sometimes wonder if we train ourselves wrong. Take a shoot and look. You need to varry how many shoots you take. It might be just one and it might be 15 to stop the threat.

GRB
October 7, 2007, 01:48 PM
While I do not think he did anything of truly heropic proportions, I can certainly understand how people who saw him take down the bad guy consider him a savior for the woman who was being attacked. I just don't see the irony in calling him a hero.

I do see the irony that it was a gun that saved someone in a city where it is extremely difficult to obtain a carry permit. Had anyone else been armed, the attack may have come to a sudden end almost as soon as it began, or maybe would not have begun at all.

I think that virtually everyone of our citizens, and legal resident aliens, except psychos, folks unable to safely handle a weapon, and people in jail, should be allowed to keep and bear arms. Things like this would be less commonplace for sure.

As far as the officer only firing one shot, well if the threat stopped upon one shot being fired, then the officer did exactly as he was supposed to have dione under current laws in NY, and in most if not all places in the USA. By the way, 2nd Avenue near 35th Street is one heck of a busy area pedestrian and auto traffic wise at about any time of the day or evening. Taking even one shot in such an area could be extremely risky to bystanders. Granted this officer seems to have been a decent shot, but I will say better not to tempt fate with multiple shots when not needed, and better not to face possible manslaughter charges. Should it have to be that way when taking down a psycho who is trying to kill someone? I know that part of me would like to say no. That part thinks the bad guy deserved to die right at the moment he was plunging the knife into the woman, and that the officer should have made sure he did die, but that is just emotion speaking. Pratically speaking each shot potentially endangers bystanders, so shoot until you stop the threat is fine by me; and I understand and support laws to that effect. I also think the actions of this officer were quite commendable. There was a man who acted as he should have under stress, as did the other officers who came to his assistance in subduing the dirtbag.

All the best,
Glenn B

TexasRifleman
October 7, 2007, 01:50 PM
A shirtless madman wielding stolen knives

OK Bloomberg.... You gonna move to ban knives? It's only fair since you used the same excuse to go after guns.

GRB
October 7, 2007, 01:52 PM
Don't be surprised if Bloomberg tries just that, he is a political uber leftist. They have done it in the UK where you cannot even carry a pocket knife; and last year in Scotland there was talk of outlawing weapons like beer mugs and bottles! Imagine trying to do that, I guess all glass products would be next.

Blackbeard
October 7, 2007, 01:56 PM
Deranged Lee Coleman stood wild-eyed over the dog-walker

What do you expect from a guy named Deranged? Who would name their kid that?

v35
October 7, 2007, 02:02 PM
Wow. I was twelve blocks away from that spot at the time. Legally disarmed, of course.

I agree Chin acted appropriately. If one shot was sufficient to stop the attacker, more that that might have resulted in legal difficulties for him. Well done!

Erebus
October 7, 2007, 02:02 PM
They have done it in the UK where you cannot even carry a pocket knife And cooking knives cannot have points. They must be rounded.

Harley Quinn
October 7, 2007, 02:07 PM
Hero is correct for the moment, IMHO.

Many even with a CCW have mentioned, it is for them and theirs not to assist others (ever).

The man did not need to be involved at all. But he took it upon himself to do what he felt was necessary for the moment and fired to stop the man.

I believe he is a hero and if asked by the ones who were there and victims I'd say they might consider him one also.

I find this site to have a very high group that are anti-cop (LEO), sort of reminds me of the folks who are anti-guns to be honest.;)

v35
October 7, 2007, 02:07 PM
Daily News caption:
Off-duty NYPD Transit cop Gregory Chin, shot the stabbing suspect.
How can a guy repeatedly stabbing a woman with four bloody knives be called a suspect?

:barf:

Harley Quinn
October 7, 2007, 02:19 PM
How can a guy repeatedly stabbing a woman with four bloody knives be called a suspect?


Has not been found guilty by his peers as of yet:what:

But he was guilty in the eyes of the guy shooting him, hopefully ''Chin" will be addressed as "hero" instead of what is transpiring at this location by some.

lacoochee
October 7, 2007, 02:33 PM
Harley Quinn, not to pick a fight or anything but no one here is saying that Chin did anything wrong, there was just one opinion that a guy doing his duty as a police officer should not be labeled heroic. Not that he shouldn't be congratulated or did the wrong thing.

Up until the last decade or so, the term hero was reserved for people who did things that were truly extraordinary. Now it used anytime someone does something that at would have at one time be considered something as simple as their civic duty.

So a citizen with a concealed weapon, with absolutely no duty to interfere , shooting a knife wielding mad man in New York City might be considered heroic (given that swift prosecution is sure to follow). A police officer doing the same might be considered to have just been doing their job much as we all do everyday.

boredelmo
October 7, 2007, 02:39 PM
A real hero is the Singh guy.

The only other person to come to aid was the one that just got stabbed and slashed. Where the hell was everyone else?

Jeesus, How can people stand and watch this sort of thing?

I know people will say that im a keyboard ninja and i dont know how i would actually react if i was there, but i have been "there" a few times and i have acted accordingly.

lloydkristmas
October 7, 2007, 02:43 PM
I dont get it. When will we realize that these psychotics cant be rehabilitated? We waste so much time and money trying, we need to just start putting them down. If you're not competent enough to not go on stabbing rampages as soon as you breathe fresh air, you dont need to be alive.

Biker
October 7, 2007, 02:49 PM
Unarmed and watching some maniac cuttin' up an old crippled Lady? There are trash cans, trash can lids, the contents of the trash cans - bottles, etc.- bricks, car antennas, false charges followed by retreat to draw knife-boy away from his victim.

Often, all it takes is for one person to make a move and everyone else follows.

Biker

boredelmo
October 7, 2007, 02:55 PM
Biker, Funny you should say that, im reading a book called the Tipping Point for an advertising class.

It mentioned Goetz and the subway shooting, how that triggered a somewhat rise to vigilance and neighborhood watches and decrease in crime rate.

GRB
October 7, 2007, 03:01 PM
I dont get it. When will we realize that these psychotics cant be rehabilitated? We waste so much time and money trying, we need to just start putting them down. If you're not competent enough to not go on stabbing rampages as soon as you breathe fresh air, you dont need to be alive. Some psychotics are easily managed with medications. Others are even cured after treatment. Others not either way, and they remain dangerous. If you are not competent to act normally because of a disease, maybe life in an institution would be okay, but executing them because they are sick is pretty old fashioned - like about the late 1930s and earlier.

Of course, you have a good point, that is if a guy keeps being violent to the extreme, and keeps hurting or attempting to people, because either he/she cannot be cured, treated, or refuses treatment (such as stops taking meds) - then maybe execution is warranted. That would save all around with regard to suffering of more victims, expenses of treating and caring for the psycho, housing him/her (all tax dollars of course); and it maybe better than a lobotomy in the long run. Still though I would think that such a person would be entitled to a fair trial like anyone else, would have to be judged by a jury of his peers, and would get all the same legal benefits as would anyone else before having a death sentence passed on him or her (I am an equal execution opportunity sort of a guy when it comes to gender). Of course, I would like to see our legal system streamlined somewhat with regard to appeals, and swifter justice in such cases, but also strengthened so that if there is a way to be most certain of guilt in such captial cases, then such evicence must be presented (such as DNA evidence) since I think executing even a few innocent people is very bad. Don't get me wrong, I support the death penalty in many cases, even in the cases of some of those who are deranged, I just think we should be as certain as possible when something like DNA could make or break a case.

All the best,
Glenn b

GRB
October 7, 2007, 03:03 PM
Unarmed and watching some maniac cuttin' up an old crippled Lady? There are trash cans, trash can lids, the contents of the trash cans - bottles, etc.- bricks, car antennas, false charges followed by retreat to draw knife-boy away from his victim.

Often, all it takes is for one person to make a move and everyone else follows. Well not many trash cans around any more, but your point is well taken and correct. Anyone could have helped, and someone should have. Even the woman's cane may have been available as a weapon. The sad thing is that in disarmed places like NYC people are often just like sheep and depend on the sheep dogs all to much.

boredelmo
October 7, 2007, 03:04 PM
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system. ~Bob Enyart

I have found this to be true the hard way.

v35
October 7, 2007, 03:12 PM
Unarmed and watching some maniac cuttin' up an old crippled Lady? There are trash cans, trash can lids, the contents of the trash cans - bottles, etc.- bricks, car antennas, false charges followed by retreat to draw knife-boy away from his victim.

Point taken but it's been a long time since I've seen a trash can or a stray brick or two on the corner of 2nd and 34th, and breaking off those car antennas is tough compared to draw and fire. That's why carry laws exist for those places that still recognize the 2A.

asknight
October 7, 2007, 03:19 PM
The crazed mental patient got into several confrontations while running up Second Ave. near 35th St. before he took aim at Susan Barron, 67, who was walking to church to have her dog blessed, sources said.

Wait a second here... was it the perp or the victim who was the crazed mental patient?

Harley Quinn
October 7, 2007, 03:25 PM
A real hero is the Singh guy

Singh tried to stop the person from taking the knives and then ran and was being chased by the "knifer''...He was the Chef at the place the knives were taken, then he was chased to the stabbing location...
The "knifer" then started stabbing the women and Chin came to her rescue.

That is how I read the article any way:confused:

lloydkristmas
October 7, 2007, 03:26 PM
Of course, you have a good point, that is if a guy keeps being violent to the extreme, and keeps hurting or attempting to people, because either he/she cannot be cured, treated, or refuses treatment (such as stops taking meds) - then maybe execution is warranted. That would save all around with regard to suffering of more victims, expenses of treating and caring for the psycho, housing him/her (all tax dollars of course); and it maybe better than a lobotomy in the long run. Still though I would think that such a person would be entitled to a fair trial like anyone else, would have to be judged by a jury of his peers, and would get all the same legal benefits as would anyone else before having a death sentence passed on him or her (I am an equal execution opportunity sort of a guy when it comes to gender).


I agree. It's sort of like a dog who has proven that he wont stop biting people. They just need to be put down. People have a right to be born into this world, but what you do from there is your choice. You have to earn the right to keep on living. This guy is a fine example of someone who has failed to earn that right. Just like a dog, he has proven himself a burden and a danger to society. Do we keep dangerous animals in institutions to try and make them better? No. We put them down. Give him the needle, he wont be missed.

WSM MAGNUM
October 7, 2007, 03:35 PM
I think the whole story is weird. New Yorkers are weird.

Susan Barron, 67, who was walking to church to have her dog blessed,
A dog blessed! :what:


Chef Amarjit Singh, 56, was slashed across the face and neck as he tried to stop Coleman
What the heck was he thinking, going after a nut armed with knives himself unarmed.


Chin was given a sobriety test - which he passed - under a new and controversial NYPD policy introduced last Sunday.
Bloombergs good samaritan laws. :barf:

curlyhoward
October 7, 2007, 03:53 PM
"I am still reeling from the last line in the article."


Me too. THEY wanted to get him - the hero who shot the maniac. If he had had a beer for lunch they would have confiscated his gun and probably arrested him and tried to get him fired.

Of course this wasn't a racial Hate Crime, I'm sure.

Prince Yamato
October 7, 2007, 05:31 PM
Susan Barron, 67, who was walking to church to have her dog blessed,

It's not weird if you're Catholic and it's the feast day of a Saint, like Saint Francis, who I believe is the patron Saint of animals. Since we Catholics often bless our selves, houses, cars, and guns (in my case) with holy water, why not a pet?

dhoomonyou
October 7, 2007, 06:02 PM
Sickens me.

NYC does not recoginze the UNITED STATES Constitution.

ceetee
October 7, 2007, 06:07 PM
"He was chopping down on her," said Andrew Fink, 29, who was getting into a cab when the attack took place. "I saw him hit her at least 10 times. She was screaming and crawling along the street and people were running away.

I hope all of those that ran away torment themselves endlessly until they grow a pair. The only thing wrong with New York (as with most large urban centers) is that the people have stopped relying on themselves, and stopped caring about their neighbors.

Dorryn
October 7, 2007, 06:12 PM
Regarding the fact that he only took 1 shot... Thats great for a cop, and possibly the (legally) correct response.

Personally speaking, id have unloaded the magazine into him. People like this shouldnt be allowed to continue taking up space or breathing air. Plus, whoever had to wrestle him to the ground was at risk since this guy apparently was carrying a dozen knives on his person.

TwitchALot
October 7, 2007, 06:13 PM
A real hero is the Singh guy.

The only other person to come to aid was the one that just got stabbed and slashed. Where the hell was everyone else?

Jeesus, How can people stand and watch this sort of thing?

You have to understand that most people today are not vigilant, or don't believe that anything can happen to them. In New York, I'd imagine this would be very prevalent. "You don't need guns because the police can protect you." It's just that people today have decided that they no longer have an obligation to defend themselves or otherwise take protective measures because we have police. So, when someone does something like this, they aren't prepared. They're in shock. They don't react- they freeze. I would never count on innocent bystanders to assist me if I were to be attacked, and no one else should either. Most people just aren't prepared for violence, and it just shows the need to maintain situational awareness- even if it's a crowded, well-lit, public area.

yesit'sloaded
October 7, 2007, 06:17 PM
I want this to be a turning point for gun ownership in NYC. Even if Chin has to sit in jail for awhile to let the stupidity of it sink in to others. Since he was off duty was the gun even legal? I hope the media gets out the fact that a private citizen stopped a murder with a gun and was in turn given a sobriety test.

APC,inc
October 7, 2007, 06:26 PM
Regarding the fact that he only took 1 shot... Thats great for a cop, and possibly the (legally) correct response.


You mean (media) correct response. The media loves to paint cops like murderous animals when the fire more then a couple rounds. It is a shame. :cuss:

rickfifty
October 7, 2007, 08:01 PM
10:40 am and he's getting a sobriety check?

Ah heck, it's 5:00 somewhere.

Mannlicher
October 7, 2007, 08:20 PM
just another gift from the gun control freaks. I for one, would not let the city of NY dictate whether or not I could defend myself.

Remember, when you are under attack, and every second counts................ the cops are only minutes away.

glassman
October 7, 2007, 08:23 PM
An incident like this one happened in Philly a while back. A mentally ill man was threatening passersby with a K-bar but didn't actually stab anyone. The police showed up after a short while and the threat ended quickly. It was judged to be 'suicide by cop'.

GHF
October 7, 2007, 08:45 PM
The reason for the test is that one of the shooters in the Bell case (the guy killed by cops after he left a Bachelors’ party at a strip club) had been inbibing adult beverages while on duty - then went out and shot at Bell.

It is standard proceedure.

TexasRifleman
October 7, 2007, 09:17 PM
10:40 am and he's getting a sobriety check?

Yep. Old Bloomie doesn't even trust his own police force. I'm shocked that the Police Union didn't just come unglued over that one.....it just started a week ago.

annielulu
October 7, 2007, 09:33 PM
I wonder if it was Mayor Bloomberg being stabbed if he would welcome a CCW coming to his aid.

Oops, I forgot.

He has bodyguards wherever he goes.

strat81
October 7, 2007, 11:06 PM
I find it ironic that the cop, who was carrying a gun off-duty, was called a hero while it is illegal for any non-LEO to carry a gun.
Please get your facts straight. NYC does issue CCW permits. Rarely, but they do.

lsb589
October 7, 2007, 11:10 PM
And - just FYI - they *are* going after knives in the UK now, big campaigns in the newspapers, etc. So it is not implausible.

camslam
October 8, 2007, 01:30 AM
"He was chopping down on her," said Andrew Fink, 29, who was getting into a cab when the attack took place. "I saw him hit her at least 10 times. She was screaming and crawling along the street and people were running away.

Jeesus, How can people stand and watch this sort of thing?

I'll tell you how. We have become a nation of cowards, full of apathy, with an attitude that allows for this type of thing.

We have debated several times on this forum whether or not to engage a threat. There are several posters, more than I can believe, that have stated:
-"I'll be a good witness or call 911."
-"Unless it is a direct threat to me or my family, I'm not getting involved."
-"If it doesn't involve you, stay out of it."

I have said repeatedly that each person must make up their own mind when it comes to engaging a situation, and I will respect their right to choose. In addition, I don't advocate playing Rambo and trying to be the hero that saves the day. But for the life of me, I would never be able to respect a CCW holder that witnessed a defenseless woman being stabbed 10+ times, and the CCW holder not doing anything about it. There is just no excuse someone can give me on that, which will help me reconcile that type of attitude. When the article itself is talking about how people are running away from this, it makes me sick to my stomach.

The sheep mentality of our society is disgusting and pathetic. Nobody has to be a hero, but you are telling me that someone, anyone, couldn't have grabbed SOMETHING and tried to stop this guy. Shameful.

On to the gun aspect, here in Salt Lake City a few months ago, it was an off duty cop that was ARMED, that stopped the shootings in a mall. When are people going to wise up and realize it doesn't matter who or what it is, danger will always be around, and because of that, people need to be able to defend themselves.

:banghead::fire::banghead::fire::banghead::fire:

FourTeeFive
October 8, 2007, 01:57 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/10/07/2007-10-07_city_should_be_proud_of_amarjit_hero_at_.html



His sliced ear was hanging off his face and his blood was pooling at his feet as 56-year-old Amarjit Singh stood on the corner looking desperately for help.

Then Singh gazed back up Second Ave. toward the Texas Smokehouse restaurant, where he had been preparing for another long day as a chef when the bare-chested madman came in and grabbed at least four knives from the kitchen.

The madman who had slashed Singh and sent him fleeing down to E. 34th St. was now up at the next corner, repeatedly stabbing a 67-year-old woman outside the Gemini Diner.

Singh instantly made a decision that proved him one of our city's very best and bravest. This chef from Queens by way of India became New York royalty as he forgot his own wounds and dashed straight back into the mortal danger he had just been so lucky to escape.

The madman looked up from the bloodied woman and rose on seeing the courageous Singh approach. A 25-year-old onlooker named Antionette Brown watched amazed as the madman slowly backed up. He was clutching at least four knives but seemed unnerved by Singh's uncommon courage and selflessness, as if Evil were being vanquished purely by the power of Good.

"He probably saved her life," Brown later said.

Another representative of Good appeared, in the person of off-duty Police Officer Gregory Chin stepping from the diner. He identified himself and ended up shooting the still-crazed madman once in the stomach only after ordering him five times to drop the knives.

In the meanwhile, Singh grabbed towels and aprons from the Smokehouse. Onlookers then watched Singh ignore his own wounds as he sought to stem the woman's bleeding. He was joined by two off-duty New Jersey firefighters.

Other cops arrived, along with paramedics. The woman and Singh were rushed to the hospital, as was the gunman.

"Still fighting," a cop later noted.

The area was closed off with crime scene tape. Police identified the woman as 67-year-old Susan Barron and said she had been attacked while on her way with her little black Scottish terrier, Velvet, to Good Shepherd Church on E. 31st St. for the annual blessing of the pets.

"Obviously not a Brooklyn dog," one officer said. "I don't want to disparage Manhattan dogs, but a good Brooklyn dog would have ended it before the cop got there."

The officer looked over to the pile of bloodstained aprons and towels at the southwest corner of E. 35th St. and Second Ave., where Singh had knelt to help the woman while his own blood poured down his face.

"Good guy," the officer said.

A block down at the southwest corner of E. 34th St. and Second Ave., a disturbingly large bloodstain was turning a dark brown on the sun-baked sidewalk where Singh had stood looking for help. He had been bleeding heavily enough that the blood had run along a seam in the pavement.

But where most sidewalk bloodstains mark only another of the city's horrors, this irregular, 2-foot-wide patch of gore recorded the spot where a chef who came here from Punjab two decades ago proved himself one of the city's great blessings. He was already the father of three grown children and was known to his family as hardworking, gentle, friendly and "a very good guy."

He now also becomes kin to such other remarkably good guys as the construction worker who threw himself atop a stranger as a subway train bore down on them.

Singh could have continued fleeing down Second Ave. from the madman who had just slashed him. Or he could have remained on that bloody spot until help came. He did not.

And after that blood is washed away, we should not forget the choice Amarjit Singh made on the morning of Oct. 6, 2007, as he stood at the corner of E. 34th St. and Second Ave.

Spinner
October 8, 2007, 02:00 AM
why is it important that Chin was an off-duty cop? Nobody ever talks about off-duty dentists or off-duty accountants. Once you become a cop that's all you are from that day forward? He may have been a cop, but he was off-duty.

Chin's actions to stop the knife wielding attacker in his own time should not be expected of him ... anymore than an off-duty taxidriver should be expected to drive people around free of charge. His actions were above and beyond the call of duty.

And Singh can perhaps be judged to have been foolish, following an armed and unstable man, but at least he did something .... which is a darn site better than standing there tut-tutting and waiting for the madman to turn the knife on you. He tried to stem the woman's bleeding despite being injured himself .... how many people would do that?

I think its easy to know exactly what should or should not be done from a comfy armchair .... much less easy when thrust unexpectedly into a bizarre and life-threatening situation.

Spinner

Erik
October 8, 2007, 02:00 AM
Good for the two good guys.

To be honest, I fail to see the point on railing against New York in this case. A CCW was needed and one was available. Good.

Oh, but he was a cop... What ever. As if it isn't a positive firearms story unless a non-LEO is involved. Like you'd care who shot someone off of you if necessary.

Again, good for the two good guys and pray for the lady.

yesit'sloaded
October 8, 2007, 02:12 AM
Too bad that Singh could not have had a permit and could have ended it much sooner. Too bad the lady that was stabbed couldn't have shot him either. That was the problem. I don't have the time to wait for an off duty cop to come around and they just got lucky.

Harley Quinn
October 8, 2007, 02:29 AM
The chef story and the shooting story are slightly different (to be expected) bottom line they were both instrumental in helping the victim of the stabbing (women), funny how some can deride the woman for having the gall to mention going to the church and "blessing her pet" in a story as sickening as this.

She is a cancer victim out taking her dog for a walk and you bad mouth her :confused:
Very fortunate she had a neck brace on or he would have cut her neck and killed her. Now she will be recovering from that attack along with the cancer that is trying to kill her.

Oh Well, that is part of the forum and discussion I guess, some folks show their trueselves for sure.

HQ

Stretchman
October 8, 2007, 05:03 AM
The crazed mental patient got into several confrontations while running up Second Ave. near 35th St. before he took aim at Susan Barron, 67, who was walking to church to have her dog blessed, sources said.

Dog blessing? Attacked by crazed knife wielding man while going to get your dog blessed. Only in NYC do you find people like this.

Well, not entirely true. Sometimes, they move to South Florida to retire.

BTW, just because someone's dog talks nice to you is no reason to assume that she is a cheap floozy dog.

ilbob
October 8, 2007, 12:07 PM
Chin was given a sobriety test - which he passed - under a new and controversial NYPD policy introduced last Sunday.
This policy may be in response to a series of off duty NYPD cop involved shootings where the cop was drunk. It does not seem like it is all that invasive. If you expect the city to defend your off duty actions, you should at least be sober.

Mr. Designer
October 8, 2007, 12:19 PM
Glenn Beck had Ted Nuggent on to talk about this. If available, I'll post the transcript later.

#shooter
October 8, 2007, 12:48 PM
She was screaming and crawling along the street and people were running away.

Unbelievable, but does not surprise me. I hope they both recover. The weakest of the herd (67 year old female with a cane and neck brace) is attacked and the rest of the herd just takes off like a hyena attacking an old antelope. I realize talk is cheap; I just hope I have the courage if I am ever in that situation armed or not. I prefer armed though.

ilbob
October 8, 2007, 12:53 PM
Unbelievable, but does not surprise me. I hope they both recover. The weakest of the herd (67 year old female with a cane and neck brace) is attacked and the rest of the herd just takes off like a hyena attacking an old antelope. I realize talk is cheap; I just hope I have the courage if I am ever in that situation armed or not. I prefer armed though.
Chances are if you did come to her aid you would be the one arrested and charged. NYC lives under a sick system.

40SW
October 8, 2007, 12:53 PM
"I saw him hit her at least 10 times. She was screaming and crawling along the street and people were running away.

People running away. Great!!, what a nation we live in. So we went from a frontier spirit of self reliance and being a good samaritan to a full government dependance. Nice !!(sarcasm). Kudos for the cop for doing his job and I commend him for it, but damn!!!!!!, people running away like children!! I wonder if this sort of thing would happen in Boise, Austin, or Tallahassee, probably not.
Lesson learned. Increase CWP provisions, lower crime, increase citizen participation. NYC. Never will I venture there.

Harley Quinn
October 8, 2007, 01:08 PM
This is something that makes sense to a lot of folks I'd think.

**
John Brunner's 1968 science fiction novel Stand on Zanzibar, which describes a society that is so overcrowded that people running amok (called muckers) are so common everyone arms themselves, which only exacerbates the problem.
**

The thing is at one time they sent these folks to an island and they never returned to society, now we release them back from whence they came.
Survival and placing yourself in danger are foolish by most standards.

You would hope that you would be able to help, but the simple situation is if you don't have the tools you should not try to do the job.

Police are not executioners as a general rule. It is definitly a 2 edged problem we have in our society. If we all had the ability to carry guns it would only create a worse society many feel.

Guess taking away the guns when the cowboys came into town worked back then now we are wanting more folks to carry them. :eek:

Sawyer
October 8, 2007, 01:08 PM
I live in NYC, I do feel those cowardly people that ran should have at least tried to distract the pyscho somehow, I know I would've. Also, the NY Post reported he was shot in the stomach, fell down and got up immediately and advanced towards the officer, Chin should have given him the ol' 2 to the chest right then and there.

40SW
October 8, 2007, 01:11 PM
I am assuming that it was a 9mm 124gr. Speer Gold Dot that did the job. Aren't NYC cops issued Glock 19s? I am not sure if offduty carry approved lists differ in NYC? ,but if it was a 9mm, it apparantly worked ,(with a followup ).

Sawyer
October 8, 2007, 01:16 PM
he was shot only once in the stomach, then wrestled for awhile with Chin and 4 other cops, so one could make the argument the 9mm performed less than spectacularly in this case.

40SW
October 8, 2007, 01:17 PM
The argument could be made more specifically regarding the bullet and not the caliber. Was it a 124gr. Speer Gold Dot?

LightsOut
October 8, 2007, 01:19 PM
NYPD can only carry 3 off-duty pitsols if they choose not to carry their service pistol. The G26 is the official off-duty Glock for the NYPD.

TexasRifleman
October 8, 2007, 01:19 PM
he was shot only once in the stomach, then wrestled for awhile with Chin and 4 other cops, so one could make the argument the 9mm performed less than spectacularly in this case.

One could make the argument that it all comes to shot placement.

Gut shots don't generally do well, no matter the ammo used.

40SW
October 8, 2007, 01:33 PM
I agree, stomach shots are not the optimum shot placement. ,but do nypd offduty carry with the Glock 26 permit a deviation in ammunition with respect to a choice by the officer, or is it strictly 124gr. Speer Gold Dots, interesting in knowing what was used.

ilbob
October 8, 2007, 04:04 PM
NYPD can only carry 3 off-duty pitsols if they choose not to carry their service pistol.

weak side, strong side, and ankle?

TwitchALot
October 8, 2007, 05:36 PM
I have said repeatedly that each person must make up their own mind when it comes to engaging a situation, and I will respect their right to choose. In addition, I don't advocate playing Rambo and trying to be the hero that saves the day. But for the life of me, I would never be able to respect a CCW holder that witnessed a defenseless woman being stabbed 10+ times, and the CCW holder not doing anything about it. There is just no excuse someone can give me on that, which will help me reconcile that type of attitude. When the article itself is talking about how people are running away from this, it makes me sick to my stomach.

I completely agree with this sentiment. In my opinion, CCW holders should hold themselves to a higher standard. How can we claim that CCW holders deter crime, and that guns can make for a safe and free society, when at the same time, we're essentially saying, "I wouldn't protect anyone but my family." We're saying that guns in the hands of responsible, trained, law-abiding citizens deter crime while we're saying that we wouldn't use them to stop a crime unless it happened to us, or a loved one! How can we expect, for example, someone to have stopped the VT shooting if they had been armed, when we're saying, "I wouldn't have done it"? I don't think it's fair to expect other people to jump up and risk their lives when one isn't willing to do the same.

Let me be clear- everyone should be able to make up their own mind about the matter and decide for themselves whether they would intervene or not. But a part of me thinks that in an ideal community, we should look out for each other, not just to protect our rights, but our lives as well.

ilbob
October 8, 2007, 06:29 PM
I think there is a big difference between refusing to help another in trouble, and protecting your own family first.

Your primary duty is to your family, not a stranger. If you die trying to save some crazy old lady on her way to get her dog blessed, how will that help your family?

wheelgunslinger
October 8, 2007, 06:56 PM
{Insert Outrage Here}

I have to say though, in a crowded street, if I had to shoot a psycho I'd probably go for COM too. Stomach may not be the optimum target, but it gives the least chance of shoot through or miss.

At least no one took video and put it on YouTube as she was being murdered.
Cowards.

I'll save you the rant.
[Insert Outrage Here]:banghead:

Your primary duty is to your family, not a stranger. If you die trying to save some crazy old lady on her way to get her dog blessed, how will that help your family?
I'm embarrassed for you. You claim family is the most important thing, but want your kids to see their parent walk away from helping and elderly person being knifed to death instead of leading by example and having the sack to stop the violence against an innocent person by risking your own?
Yep. I'm embarrassed for you. That is simply cowardice hiding behind the skirt of parenting.

Flynt
October 8, 2007, 07:12 PM
When did the victim become a "crazy old lady." That's pretty cold and hostile for someone who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. What kind of society would you have us create? One in which we act only based on narrow selfishness? In such a society, who would come to your rescue if you were under attack?

Harley Quinn
October 8, 2007, 07:24 PM
Your primary duty is to your family, not a stranger. If you die trying to save some crazy old lady on her way to get her dog blessed, how will that help your family?

Well it boils down to a person of Catholic faith and a cancer victim also, going to church IMHO...If she is crazy then lets start calling those who pray and seek Gods help similar :what:

Lets not digress into what I see is not a valid reason for not helping if you have the ability to help. If you can not help, so be it.

mek42
October 8, 2007, 07:59 PM
I hold a NY State CCW. It is not valid in NYC. It is illegal for me to possess a handgun in NYC except locked, separate from ammunition and I am travelling through NYC without stopping in NYC - not even for a potty break.

The below quote is an excerpt of the NY State Police Pistol Permit FAQ:

Q - Is a pistol permit issued by a licensing officer in an upstate county valid in New York City?

No. A pistol permit issued by an upstate county is valid in any other county in New York State except New York City.

In order for an upstate licensee to lawfully carry a handgun in New York City, he/she must first make application with the New York City Police Department to have their permit "validated." An investigation will be conducted to determine the authenticity of the license, after which a "needs assessment" will be conducted to determine whether the applicant has sufficiently demonstrated a "need" to possess a handgun under the circumstances provided.

The simple desire to possess a handgun while in New York City, without some other extenuating circumstances, will not serve to present a "need" suitable to receive authorization. In cases where "need" is sufficiently demonstrated, permission will be given, usually for a specific period of time, after which the process would start over again.

It is therefore not worth my time or, more importantly, the close to $400 required to attempt to obtain a NYC CCW as I would be denied (with absolutely no refund of my substantial monetary contribution to the NYPD).

If I was there, I would have retreated to a safe location, say 25 - 50 yards from the knife assailant and called 911. I am not trained in unarmed combat techniques and, frankly, even if I was, I'm not going to employ them against a crazy guy with a knife in a place where the people have decided that only the police can protect them.

On the NYPD Pistol Permit application information site, it seems to be the case that only business related carry permits are issued and even then, there is no provision for off duty carry (for people like armed security personnel). Thus, there likely was no legal CCW other than the off-duty cop present.

It appears theoretically possible for individuals to obtain possess permits for handguns (a possess permit is also required for long arms in NYC) but one would probably be facing a long prison term for taking a shot at the guy either from a nearby apartment or by bringing the weapon out to the street to take the shot. The only thing that would prevent charges from being filed and a conviction granted of at least weapons related charges (much less assault with a deadly weapon) would be political considerations if there was still a vast showing of public support for your actions in 6 months to a year by the time the court date arrived.

I am irritated by all of the people here ranting that someone should have done something. How many of you have, while unarmed, attacked a knife wielding obviously crazy man using hand-to-hand techniques? How many of you have gone to prison because you drew an illegal CCW in defense of some random crime victim (and thus lost all firearm ownership abilities)? I hope that these comments are made out of ignorance of what the laws are in NYC.

TwitchALot
October 8, 2007, 08:32 PM
I think there is a big difference between refusing to help another in trouble, and protecting your own family first.

Your primary duty is to your family, not a stranger. If you die trying to save some crazy old lady on her way to get her dog blessed, how will that help your family?

I was referring to this part:

We have debated several times on this forum whether or not to engage a threat. There are several posters, more than I can believe, that have stated:
-"I'll be a good witness or call 911."
-"Unless it is a direct threat to me or my family, I'm not getting involved."
-"If it doesn't involve you, stay out of it."

Pigspitter
October 8, 2007, 10:34 PM
Okay, I know I'm going to get flamed for this and it is lowroad, but what caliber for crackhead?

gunsmith
October 8, 2007, 10:44 PM
he was NYPD now in a different jurisdiction, he is not allowed to carry if having a few beers.
Consequently, he hardly carries off duty.
"has Bloomburg sunk so low?" you betcha!

Harley Quinn
October 9, 2007, 01:53 AM
It has been shown that alcohol and fireams don't mix. When you throw in adrenaline dump you are talking bad news.
http://www.pursuitwatch.org/stories/adrenaline.htm

In some cities the worst case scenario is an officer involved shooting while he has been working undercover and drinking (allowed).

"Vice coppers" are a special breed for sure. Many departments don't allow them to be in that job classification for more then 2 years and they are well supervised, even then mishaps occur.

ilbob
October 9, 2007, 11:51 AM
I'm embarrassed for you. You claim family is the most important thing, but want your kids to see their parent walk away from helping and elderly person being knifed to death instead of leading by example and having the sack to stop the violence against an innocent person by risking your own?
Yep. I'm embarrassed for you. That is simply cowardice hiding behind the skirt of parenting.
I don't have any kids, but I really doubt that any kid wants their father to go up unarmed against a lunatic with a bunch of butcher knives in the name of being a good example. If you think that being a good example means getting yourself sliced up, than feel free to go to the slicing. In a few weeks, everyone else will have forgotten the incident, and your kids will still have to grow up with no father.

Its not a good choice to have to make, but given the information available in the OP, it is maybe the best choice of all the bad ones available.

TexasRifleman
October 9, 2007, 12:03 PM
If you think that being a good example means getting yourself sliced up, than feel free to go to the slicing.

Exactly.

If you want to be a good example for your kids then show them how to move out of New York City to a place where the law and Constitution still mean something.

Harley Quinn
October 9, 2007, 12:31 PM
This may sound weird to some and correct to others.

I am Retired LEO. I carry now most of the time. Why?
Because I feel it is important, if at the time something comes up like this and I was there I can help, if I was not carrying and I saw something like this and was unable to help, (because I am older now and not as strong and able as I use do be) I'd feel very bad for sure.

To run is something I would not do. I'd figure out something fast and maybe be able to help and keep the maiming to a minimum, but with my Glock on me, I'd have done a better job then one shot, I'll tell you that.

Some I know who carry would not even get involved:confused: So it is back to the basics of "self" and the old lady and her dog do not qualify.

HQ

wheelgunslinger
October 9, 2007, 12:40 PM
I don't have any kids, but I really doubt that any kid wants their father to go up unarmed against a lunatic with a bunch of butcher knives in the name of being a good example. If you think that being a good example means getting yourself sliced up, than feel free to go to the slicing. In a few weeks, everyone else will have forgotten the incident, and your kids will still have to grow up with no father.

Its not a good choice to have to make, but given the information available in the OP, it is maybe the best choice of all the bad ones available.

Yep. The kids will remember that their Father wasn't the kind of guy who stood by and watched an innocent elderly woman get butchered by a psycho and did something about it.
Much better than standing there pretending like you're not getting involved "for the sake of the kids." Or hanging around to contribute to a college fund.


To keep this on the High Road though: We all decide what our lives are worth. You've made your decisions and I've made mine.
If it were you getting hacked up by that psycho, or your Mother, would you want me to get involved?

Exactly.

If you want to be a good example for your kids then show them how to move out of New York City to a place where the law and Constitution still mean something.
"Daddy, is that man stabbing that woman?"
"Yes, Billy. Hurry, let's move to Texas!"

Make all the excuses you want. Standing back and watching an innocent and defenseless person be murdered by someone in broad daylight is cowardly and ungentlemanly.

ilbob
October 9, 2007, 12:57 PM
Make all the excuses you want. Standing back and watching an innocent and defenseless person be murdered by someone in broad daylight is cowardly and ungentlemanly.
I urge you to move to an area where you are disarmed by law, and where IF you chose to take the action you think is wise, you are more likely to be arrested than the origianl assailant.

Your children can come visit you in jail for the next dozen years and explain to their friends that while their father is a convicted felon, he meant well.

Justin
October 9, 2007, 12:58 PM
Closed for going completely off rails and barely-veiled ad hominem attacks.

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