Remington 870 Express VS. NEF Pardner Pump Test


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MAX100
October 8, 2007, 03:45 PM
This is not my test. I found it on the net and though some would like to read it.

Here is very extensive test done on the Remington 870 Express and the NEF Pardner pump shotgun. This a good read for anyone thinking of buying a NEF Pardner 870 copy shotgun. It will clear up in untruths about the 870 copies made in china. Keep in mind, that NEF and H&R are now owned by Marlin. This is a major US firearms manufacture putting out Remington 870 copy China made firearms. I believe Marlin still owns NEF & H&R. If I am wrong I am sure I will be called on it. Let's hear what you think about this test and Marlin selling China made copies of the Remington 870 shotgun.

NEF has come out with the Protector Home Defense Tactical Remington 870 Express copy.

Here is the link and the actual test article. It is very long.

http://survival.com/IVB/index.php?showtopic=5542



Okay, A buddy and myself purchased a couple of 12 gauge, 3 inch chambered, black synthetic stocked, 28 inch barrel with screw in choke pump shotguns by NEF or New England Firearms. These pumpers are a cheap china knock off of the Remington 870 Express shotgun that we have come to know and love as an inexpensive and reliable work horse of a gun.

NEF has been importing the Pardner pump from China and these guns are cheap...I don't mean cheap as in garbage, I mean an inexpensive and reliable alternative to the Remington 870 Express. Before you go all half cocked and bent out of shape about how I can state that this cheap china import is as good as the Remington 870 please be patient and read along.

First, Let me touch upon the economics of the NEF Pardner pump, Wally World plans on selling the PP brand new for $144.98 plus tax. We found the Pardner pump at Dicks sporting goods for $139.99 less $10.00 for an advertised special and another $10.00 gift certificate for use on other items. This made the purchase price $129.99 plus tax and the gift certificate let me buy a box of turkey loads and a box of Remington 2 3/4 OO buckshot. I made my purchase at Dicks, My buddy(an even cheaper screw than me) took advantage of Gander Mountains gun sales policy which states they will not only beat any advertised gun price by the difference but will then double it up to $50.00. In other words my cheap screw buddy got his Pardner pump 12ga. for $109.99 plus tax! If someone is on a budget this is a very good bang for the buck.

Now let me tell you about the shotgun and the visual and functional differences between the Pardner Pump and the Remington Express. Right away the main differences between the two guns are that the Pardner pump has a longer Magazine tube than the Remington 870 express allowing two more 2 3/4" shells to be placed/used in the Pardner Pump vs. the 870 Express. The next biggest difference between the guns is the screw in choke system used. The PP uses either Winchoke, Mossberg chokes or the Browning Invector choke system(not the Invector+ chokes) while the 870 express obviously uses Rem chokes.

The PP has a truly effective recoil pad that beats the 870 express recoil pad and many others hands down. I was very impressed when shooting heavy loads and slugs.

The PP has a dark blued/black finish over an unpolished steel receiver and barrel, not the best quality but I have seen much worse on other much higher priced guns and to be honest it has a better finish than the 870 Express.

The PP weighs 6.51 pounds empty.

The synthetic stocks forend and pistol grip stock has molded in checkering that provides good grip in very sloppy weather. Important to me in all shooting conditions. ( Note> we have not tested the PP yet in freezing snowy weather<)

To prevent barrels from being interchanged between the Remington 870 express and the NEF PP the notches in the barrel that plug into the receiver are different lengths and the barrel ring that fits over the magazine tube and is then locked down by the end cap is placed differently. WE HAVE FOUND A SIMPLE SOLUTION TO MAKE BARREL INTERCHANGE POSSIBLE. However I will not say what this entails online over the internet but rest assured it does work, is safe and is fairly simple to accomplish.

All other parts between guns are a direct Ripoff of the 870 Express. While all the parts in the PP are a direct ripoff from the 870 that does not mean they will make a direct interchange without some fitting...but it can be done because the parts are so close in tolerance with each other. We know this because we have done it. From the entire trigger group to the screw threads on the end cap of the magazine tube(I make mention of the end cap because so many people want to add a sling easily for combat or field use) The Bolt measurements between the two guns make it much to difficult for simple fitting but other than that these guns are like twins. I think that future parts availability is important when making a gun purchase thats why I have some reservations about the NEF PP, we just do not know how long it will be around, While NEF has been around for many years that still does not mean parts for the PP will be. We also know that Remington parts are easily obtained and will be for many moons to come. This makes the Remington hard to beat.

My father is of the STAHL family. Stahl steel is a huge global metals company and even makes gun barrels for Glock and others of note, my dad is a no nonsense metallurgist and is wise to all manufacturing processes. Dad was kind enough to test and compare each metal part including the screws and springs between the Remington and the NEF China Knockoff. My dads testing wrecked two guns! He literally cut two guns to pieces in his testing and used all forms of advanced analysis to compare the Remington 870 express and the NEF Pardner Pump shotguns metal properties...I did not really mind him chopping up the NEF but both my buddy and I got a little sick when we found out that a new 870 would have to sacrificed.

In short my dad found that both the Remington and NEF metals used for the purpose intended were acceptable. My dad did add some caveats of note. He said that in some ways the NEF PP had superior metal parts/fit and finish when compared to the Remington 870 Express. He said the metal used in the receiver was considered better quality in the NEF but countered by saying the barrel steel used in the Remington 870 was of better quality. He also stated that these differences were so small that in the end game it did not matter one iota.

Just think about it, my buddy and I sacrificed two guns just to hear my dad the expert tell us both guns are to close in steel quality to make any difference LOL.

Our testing in the field since May 2005 shows some major shooting differences in these guns. The two guns were not destroyed by my dad until after thousands of shells were cycled and continue to be cycled through one remaining NEF PP.

Both my buddy and I know that you can go to many different gun shops and pick up the same model gun, test what the trigger feels like, look at the fit and finish and find an unbelievable amount of quality differences between the same models on any given day! This tells me Quality control must be awfully lax at times. We found that in some instances that we could pick up the more expensive $700.00 Remington 870 Wingmaster that has a nice finish and pumps the action smoothly but the trigger pulls roughness and creep along with sideplay was disgusting! yet four guns over to the right on the gun rack we could pick up the workhorse $259.00 Remington 870 express and found the trigger pull to be far superior than the better finished higher end model Wingmaster and at the same time cycle smoothly. We also found the same thing when making the comparisons from 870 Express to 870 Express, one guns fit and finish would be great, the next one horrible. One guns barrel would be very good visually the next barrel would show rings from left over tool marks, have a really rough chamber and fit to the receiver would be sloppy. This made it difficult to find an "average" 870 Express to compare to the average NEF Pardner Pump. So we made the decision to go to a gun shop we never went to before and purchase the first 870 Express we picked up off the rack. The 870 we bought turned out to be in the just OK fit and finnish department with quite frankly a very poor bluing job over the unpolished metal barrel and receiver. The inner barrel bore looked okay but showed a few machine ring marks(just because a shotgun barrel has ring marks does not mean it will not pattern well). The trigger had some creep and measured 7.2 lbs of pull to make the hammer fall. The action was stiff when cycling but we figured a few thousands shells through her would fix that problem. It did and the 870 shot Okay patterns, not great but good enough for a field gun. The 870's point of aim was about 2" high and right at 20 yards and a full 5" right and 4 "low at 40 yards with our baseline Remington STS target loads. The five inches right at 40 yards is unacceptable and was fixed to shoot point on at 40yards.

The NEF Pardner Pump shotguns we checked at many stores were very much the same in fit and finish from gun to gun and so was the trigger, the only differences we have seen are what the barrel bores looks like. The two PP's we purchased both had nice shiny smooth bores with very good chambers. We did however find some PP's that had rough chambers with the same machine ring marks that the Remington's showed. The triggers of both guns had some creep but not as much as the 870 and they both fired with a measured 6.1 and 6.3lbs respectively. All of the NEF PP's we checked have very stiff actions when cycled and in my opinion require tuning. The owners manual says the NEF PP comes with a modified choke...thats false, every Pardner pump choke we measured at every store was a true full choke and our guns patterned like full choke.

My NEF Pardner Pump now has 8000 Remington STS light target loads through her. It has 400 Remington Premier 3" magnum Turkey loads through her. It has 100 Remington Slugger HV rifled slugs through her(with an improved cylinder Choke size). It has 100 Remington express 2 3/4" OO buckshot shells through her. It has 1700 Remington heavy pheasant loads through her. It has 50 Remington Hevi Shot HV waterfowl shells through her(Dam those Hevi Shot loads are expensive) These Hevi Shot Loads should work great soon when Goose season opens! The Pardner pump also has 2000 rounds of DIANA 2 3/4" heavy target loads through her. It also has many different types of Winchester shot shell ammunition fired through her as well by folks who have borrowed the gun, but the numbers of shells and loads were not logged like the Remington Ammo and DIANA shells were. We have not fired one round of any type of handload. My self and my shooting buddy have used nothing but the Pardner Pump since the beginning of May 2005, we have fired it in pounding rain storms and in dusty dry dirty conditions, it was always cleaned and lubed after each shooting session. As of Sept. 10th 2005 the Pardner Pump has a documented 12,350 shotshells run through it with no failures to operate or feed(except a few feeding problems caused by operator errors from short shucking LOL) We plan on putting the Pardner Pump through a very harsh fall and winter hunting regime. Fall turkey season first, followed by duck,goose and upland game. It will also be used for Hunting Whitetails this fall.

The Pardner Pump patterns a very well defined, effective dense area with all chokes and shot shell load combinations. We really could not find any fault with the patterns the Pardner pump put on paper at the standard ranges with both lead and steel shot(observe proper choke use when shooting steel shot) I wish we could have found an acceptable way of testing shot string quality but this proved difficult, instead shooting experience from many shooters and barrel design gave us at least some kind of baseline for shot string length and quality with many different ammunition loads. We also tried to place a long cardboard target behind a pickup truck moving at 35 MPH (what a comedy of errors that was) But after a while we got it right. All indications show a shot string average of around 4.4 feet at 40 yards.(not bad at all) However good pattern density and shot string do not tell the whole story when it comes to good shotgunning and the Pardner Pump lacked in some key areas. One area the Pardner Pump fell down on the job was point of impact. When aiming at a specific spot the point of impact was way low and left at 20 yards and only got worse at 40 yards. At 40 yards my NEF PP's point of impact was a full 8 inches left of aim point. Since the stock is synthetic instead of wood, custom fitting for better point of impact using standard shotgun fitting methods is out of the question and you can only do so much movement of the front bead site. We ended up bending the barrel slightly by supporting the barrel ends up off a table a few inches and using a screw C clamp to make a slight bend along the middle of the barrel. After a little trial and error This barrel bending method worked GREAT! Now the point of aim is dead nuts on target with no visible marks on the barrel or the barrels raised rib. My shootings buddies Pardner Pump shot low and left also but not anywhere near as severe, his gun patterned very well and when he placed a low profile adjustable HI VIS magnetic front site on his barrel point of impact was just fine. Reports from local gunsmiths and other owners say they have not had this point of impact problem. After this barrel fix, the gun has no faults. The barrel design of the Pardner Pump includes a long forcing cone for reduced recoil and less shot deformation, its my opinion that after spending countless hours counting pellet hits on paper with all kinds of Remington shotshells that this gun patterns as good as my custom Perazzi shotgun barrels.

The Pardner Pump swings and balances nicely to target, I am partial and biased to the 28" long barrel because it gives good pointability for long precise shots along with enough swing speed to pick up fast moving close breaking birds. This is a personal thing but for an inexpensive mass produced field gun the Pardner Pump fits me fairly well. I will not get into what makes a good fitting shotgun but many people seem to be able to adjust very well to the gun. I have to say this Pardner Pump Shotgun has been one reliable shotgun, I pull the trigger and it goes bang every time with no problems. We are going to build a home defense shotgun with the PP when NEF makes other barrels available late this fall or early next year according to an NEF person I spoke with a few weeks ago on the phone.

Just to be clear...I hate any company that steals another companies design or theft of intellectual property, and have serious problems with NEF importing and selling these shotguns because they are a very close duplicate of the Remington 870. I am guessing that Remington's patent protection is all but gone for the 870 and that is why NEF can get away with selling such a close copy. But at the same time this Pardner Pump is one hell of a good deal. To me its a throw it in the truck I don't give a **** about it any weather shotgun that works reliable all the time. What more could you ask for in a gun for around $130.00.

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strat81
October 8, 2007, 07:18 PM
Very good read, thanks for posting it!

forrestd
October 8, 2007, 09:16 PM
I've only ever shot one Pardner Pump, but it cycled smoothly and shot well. It felt more solid than my Mossberg 500 and was about $60 cheaper too. If I were still in college and poor I'd consider getting one, but now that I have a real job I would just buy a Remington 870. :)

MAX100
October 9, 2007, 12:03 PM
I see it this way. To me it has nothing to do with if you can afford a Remington Express or not. I won't the best quality for the $, I am sure most of you do also. Brand name gives you that most of the time but not always.

I have also found that with Remington 870 Express quality is different from gun to gun. The Remington stamp dose not always mean you are going to get the best shotgun for the money. I have never fire one but I sale them and have seen many. Quality control on the Rem 870 Exp is not what it should be for the $. Mossberg is able to give consistent quality with their model 500 for less cost. Remington should be able to do it also. I was reading the thread, (Bad day with new shotgun, or "I got Remy 870 blues") on THR and some were having FTE problems with the Rem Exp. I believe no brand name should get a free ride just because of their name recognition. Maybe the quality of the Marlin imported 870 copies being sold in the US will cause Remington to tighten up on the quality control on their Remington Express shotguns.

Sorry I just call it the way I see it.


GC

oletymer
October 9, 2007, 01:14 PM
No names in the test. There is no way to verify if it is factual. The whole article smells.

MAX100
October 9, 2007, 02:20 PM
There is nothing he says about either gun that I see is not true. Anyone that owns a 870 copy can see the review is right on. I sale both guns and see the review is right on. If anyone doubts the review they can easily join the website that it was originally posted on and contact him to question his review. I am sure he would welcome your questions. He seems to be a very experienced and knowledgeable guy.

China is know for having quality steel. The US imports a lot of it. I read a review on the Chinese 1911 and the steel was also tested in that review and they came to the same conclusions. The Chinese made 1911 was highly regarded as an excellent low cost pistol before importation stopped. Mossberg uses aluminum receivers on their model 500 and they are excellent shotguns, so extremely high quality steel doesn't matter anyway in shotgun receivers.



GC

oletymer
October 9, 2007, 02:52 PM
Steel quality does not matter anyway? Only in your dreams of selling lots of cheap guns to those who would believe you.

SoCalShooter
October 9, 2007, 03:00 PM
Well its nice to have cheap knock offs sometimes. My friend wants a new shot gun but just doesnt have the money for it. I will send him this. Plus this is a cheap way for new people to get into shotgunning.

ArmedBear
October 9, 2007, 04:13 PM
SoCal, I'm not sure that's the best idea.

I bought a new Express a couple years ago for $235.

I soon spent a lot more than that on tickets and ammo to learn to hit something with it. Then I got a hunting license and waterfowl and upland stamps. I paid for a spot around a local lake. I burned a bunch of gas.

I could have bought the Wingmaster sitting next to the Express at the store and, in the end, the would have made little difference in the overall expenditure. And now, I'd have a nice Wingmaster LC instead of the sluggish Express that sits in my second-tier gun cabinet as a spare that I never use, and a couple of other guns I've paid for since.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Express as a basic shotgun. But the LC points, swings and shoots better.

Penny wise, pound foolish I was.

MAX100
October 9, 2007, 04:49 PM
This is not my review test I just happen to agree with it.

My markup on the Remington Express is the same as the Marlin NEF 870 copy. Sales of either shotgun has no baring on the way I see things. You or anyone else can do your own test. Go by Dick's, Walmart and different gun shops and look at the Remington Express they have for sale and you will see the quality of each shotguns varies. Take a look at the Marlin NEF Pardner shotguns they have for sale also. Please come back and post your results. It is strange how someone will form an opinion about a gun they have never even held in the their hands.

I will let the test review speak for itself.

ArmedBear I agree the Remington Wingmaster is a excellent shotgun. My markup on the Remington Wingmaster is the same also.


GC

ArmedBear
October 9, 2007, 04:59 PM
I have seen and handled a lot of Expresses and they all seem the same to me.

The newest ones are a bit nicer than the one I got (better rib, laminate stock).

Maybe they do vary in quality; I can't say they don't.

However, I do think this is a lot of typing over a rather minimal amount of money in the grand scheme of things. That was my point from the beginning. If you're worried about 50 bucks, think twice about buying a shotgun, then think again. Shotguns are hand cannons that shoot money into the air. Better than boats, I guess, but sometimes not much.:)

Furthermore, Marlin still makes top-notch rifles and their prices don't seem to go up as fast as Ruger's, either. They wanted a shortcut into the junk pump gun market, I guess. I would have preferred that they bought Ithaca and made nice ones, because Marlin still knows how, but what the hell.

(I'm sure the new Ithacas are nice, but I've never actually seen or touched one, nor have I seen the pricelist yet. If Marlin had bought the company, I think they'd be on the shelves.)

SoCalShooter
October 9, 2007, 06:34 PM
re: armed bear

I was just pointing out that it is nice to have a cheap knock off. Especially if you are going to loan a shotgun for hunting or someone who is just getting into guns, who may just want to try it but needs their own weapon. I know you can get an 870 pretty cheap though but still 235+tax+dross+shells +etc can get expensive for someone who is not even sure if they will like it or if you are buying a loaner.

I have a "loaner" shotgun and "loaner" rifle and "loaner" pistol for people who want to go hunting or come out shooting. Its not the greatest gun, did not cost me much but it does what its intended to do and I do not have to worry about it.

forrestd
October 9, 2007, 08:52 PM
Maybe the quality of the Marlin imported 870 copies being sold in the US will cause Remington to tighten up on the quality control on their Remington Express shotguns.

That's a good point, so let's hope so. I prefer to buy American made products, but for the spotty QC and how much more the 870 Express costs, it's a real turn off to me.

NCdad
October 9, 2007, 09:49 PM
MAX100 posts are more like an advertisement for the Chinese knock-off of the 870 than a true assessment. His father worked for Stahl. My goodness! Who to believe ? MAX100's father, or the entire engineering staff at Remington ? My, my what a difficult choice... Do the Chinese barrels split like a Remington if an obstruction is in the barrel. Or do they shatter, sending shards of metal into the user's (or bystander's) face?
My second point is yes, I agree with MAX100 that his shotgun works great. After all, it should --it is a copy of the 870. The Chinese simply took the outdated patent and copied what they could legally get away with. Guess why ? They don't have the brains to make their own shotgun. And they know they can sell it -- if the price is right.
The big attraction is, it is cheaper to buy a copy than the real thing. Really ? Maybe, but not everybody is a bottom Dollar guy.
The cute part is they figured out how they can fit Remington barrels on the Chinese knock-offs, but he declines to say how -- or how much extra it will cost. Nice touch!
In all honesty, I must admit my post is prejudiced.I own Remingtons: 3 870 Express, my sons own 3 Wingmaster's. They are too shiny for me. I just don't feel right going into the woods with a gun that looks better than me. The Express models are rougher to cycle at first but wear seductively smooth in time.

SigfanUSAF
October 9, 2007, 09:50 PM
FWIW,

If I wanted to knock $50 off a WalMart Remington 870 Express, I'd roll the rack until I found the $199 Mossberg 500.

I've reviewed several of the Chinese shotgun knockoffs, and through and through, I can't find one reason to buy one, EXCEPT to have something to slam around the range all day without destroying an original '97 Win (for example). When it comes to a modern knockoff....
China can keep their guns.
Period.

ArmedBear
October 9, 2007, 10:39 PM
The Express models are rougher to cycle at first but wear seductively smooth in time.

Lube up the rails and other contact points with Bullfrog Lubricant and Rust Blocker and the things feel like silk from day 1.

I still would probably get a Wingmaster next time, but not if I'm going to bash it up anyway. I've just gotten more picky about things that don't really matter, as I've shot more rounds.:)

Owen Sparks
October 10, 2007, 12:24 AM
As I understand it, the patent on the 870 has expired after 50 years and now it is in the public domain just like the 1911. Anyone can make one.

MAX100
October 10, 2007, 12:38 AM
Some Remington owners are very touchy and act as though they have stock in the company. Please go back and READ. I HAVE STATED MANY TIMES THIS NOT MY TEST REVIEW. MY FATHER NEVER WORKED FOR STAHL STEEL. Click on the link I posted to find out the one who wrote the review. I agree with the review but don't take it out on me because the test review did not go your way. Marlin makes some very fine firearms and I am sure they sent some of their best quality control engineers to China to oversee the manufacturing process of their version of the 870 Express shotguns. The Marlin NEF 870 copies are well made shotguns for the money and more.

Like I have stated, if anyone doesn't agree with the test review do your own and come back and post the results. I am sure we would all like to read it. If you have questions join the site the original test review was posted on and email the one who did the review. I am sure he can tell you how to convert a 870 barrel to work on a 870 copy.
I can tell you from working on guns myself and looking over both guns that you will have to cut a pipe spacer with the correct ID diameter, OD thickness and the correct length to fill the gap between the mag tube cap on the 870 copy and the barrel ring on the Remington 870 barrel. Next you will have to fit the notches on the Remington 870 barrel that plugs into the receiver of the 870 copy. That is my quick assessment from what I have seen.




GC

GRB
October 10, 2007, 12:43 AM
All the testing aside, despite the price difference, I think when it comes to guns, I will buy American before I would ever consider Chinese knockoffs.

ArmedBear
October 10, 2007, 01:48 AM
All the testing aside, despite the price difference, I think when it comes to guns, I will buy American before I would ever consider Chinese knockoffs.

...especially since we're talking about a slightly cheaper version of one of the least expensive good shotguns you can buy...

Now if someone can make and sell something that's really just as good as an old Superposed for $500, well, I'd be tempted.

But we're talking about a copy of a $250 gun for $180 here.

strat81
October 10, 2007, 02:07 PM
I own neither but the attitude in this thread is terrible. Not everyone can afford an 870, even a Walmart Express model. Accept it for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. I guess everyone here was either born into privilege or is too old to remember what it was like to be young and poor (or old and poor). For some folks, they really can't stretch to afford the extra $50 or $100 for something else.

While were at it, let's dump on Les Baer, Wilson Combat, and Kimber for being a bunch of jerks for copying JMB's 1911.

And before you start hating the chinese, remember who invented gunpowder.

ArmedBear
October 10, 2007, 02:24 PM
I guess everyone here was either born into privilege or is too old to remember what it was like to be young and poor (or old and poor). For some folks, they really can't stretch to afford the extra $50 or $100 for something else.

Unless you plan to shoplift the ammo, what good is the gun, then?

I've been broke. I've been past broke. At the time, I wasn't agonizing over which cheap shotgun I'd buy so I could feed it ammo at 5 bucks a box.:rolleyes:

This is what I wrote:
I bought a new Express a couple years ago for $235.

I soon spent a lot more than that on tickets and ammo to learn to hit something with it. Then I got a hunting license and waterfowl and upland stamps. I paid for a spot around a local lake. I burned a bunch of gas.

I could have bought the Wingmaster sitting next to the Express at the store and, in the end, the would have made little difference in the overall expenditure.

That's reality, not a bad attitude.

Now I guess if you need really cheap self-defense, and the NEF works, it'll save you a few bucks. Hopefully you'll know how to use it if you can't afford to practice with it. Hence, I wasn't buying shotguns or much else when I was 20 grand in the hole.

Nothing wrong with being broke. Nothing wrong with being realistic about it, either.

MAX100
October 10, 2007, 03:46 PM
Take the review for what it shows. The Marlin NEF 870 copies are an excellent low cost shotgun. I don't see them taking much business away from Remington. Mossberg is my best selling shotgun and Remington is a close second. Many customers who own very nice expensive shotguns are looking for a good low cost shotgun for their son or to have one they don't have to worry about messing up. Some are looking for low cost home defense shotgun to put in the closet or beside their bed for peace of mind. Most will only fire it maybe once or twice a year, if that. In that case ammo cost doesn't come into play. Some of those are retirees on a fixed income. Some customers are just tight wads that are just looking for a deal.


If anyone is looking to buy a Remington firearm now is a good time. They are offering $30 and $50 rebates on many of their guns. The clam before the storm. They will probably have another price increase after first of the year.



GC

ArmedBear
October 10, 2007, 03:48 PM
Don't they offer similar rebates every year from before the dove openers to the early holiday shopping season?

I'm wondering more, what will happen now that they've been bought by Cerberus.

MAX100
October 10, 2007, 06:05 PM
They usually do offer some rebates but this is the most I have seen. To many to list, rifles and shotguns. Cerberus probably made that decission to speed up slow sales before Christmas. The price increases this year has slowed sales of Remington firearms so they are probably doing some back tracking.

Here is one headline: In April, Cerberus Capital Management bought Remington Arms Co., the gun maker, for $118 million and took on more than $200 million in junk debt as part of the deal

I believe they bought Bushmaster also. Remington and Bushmaster, There is probably a great future ahead for both.


GC

ArmedBear
October 10, 2007, 06:10 PM
Maybe they can buy the old Winchester plant, and the fabled Remchester can finally actually come to be!:p

Shell Shucker
October 11, 2007, 11:53 PM
I find it amusing that everyone here has the cash for a $600+ computer (that's good for what, two maybe three years?) and can pay for Internet service........ Arguing over the merits of a $250 gun vs $180 gun. Priorities....

MAX100
October 12, 2007, 09:54 AM
Come on! We don't argue on THR, we have discussions. We are all a tight knit group of gun nuts.

It sounds good but that is not how the human mind works when it comes to money. Some of us drive nice cars but we will cross three lanes of traffic to get to a gas station on the other side of the road that has gas 5 cent cheaper per gal. I have been told that my prices are to high on some guns just because I charge $15 to $20 more for a gun. Some customers will drive across town to Dicks because they can save maybe $10 on a gun after they pay for gas. When shopping In a department store many will switch to a cheaper brand name for as little as 10 cent savings. Stores know this that is why they offer lower cost store brands.

Haven't you heard the ones with money are some of the biggest tight wads.

You can pick up some sweet deals on Remington firearms right now because of rebates they are offering. That will not last. A plain Express usually cost around $300. The other Express models cost up to $400.

I have had my computer going 10 years. I just can't see spending that extra $600 until this one dies on me. I am now looking to switch to a cheaper internet provider because my provider had a $3 per month price increase on their service. Their second price increase in two years.

Does any of this sound familiar to anyone.


GC

Shell Shucker
October 12, 2007, 11:01 PM
I hear ya Buddie! We have people roll into our pool store in a 40-70 thousand dollar vehicle ASK if they can get the recommended chemicals at Wal-Mart AFTER a FREE water test and 10 minutes of advice! %$#@*&!! I'm happy to say that is not the norm. Most of our customers appreciate our level of service and are happy to pay for it.
I admit that I've bought a lot of ammo, at loss leader prices, at the big box. I don't expect the little guys to be competitive on those loss leaders.
I've bought ALL of my guns at local gun shops (small businesses). I like dealing with local people. I like the personal attention I receive from the owners and the employees. They know me by name and I know them. They take care of me. They have given me some great deals. Service is worth a few bucks.

Shell Shucker
October 12, 2007, 11:14 PM
PS, I'd be using a 10 year old computer also; IF it was still working! The last three have lasted @3 years each......... I wish I had your luck with computers!:)
At least my 80 year old shotgun still works!

MAX100
October 13, 2007, 02:07 AM
I have done some hardware upgrades on my computer that is one reason why it is still alive after 10 years.


Some of the real old guns are the best.


GC

MCgunner
October 13, 2007, 11:08 AM
Since I don't like 870s, I wouldn't have the NEF, either. I much prefer Mossbergs and Browning BPSs for their ergos. 870s SUCK, especially for left handers. And, I mean, if you can't afford a Mossberg 500, you must have a bad crack habit.

Blue Brick
October 13, 2007, 06:24 PM
I was strongly thinking about buying the NEF pump, but I couldn’t convince myself to buy an imported firearm so I order a NEF single shot 12 gauge from Wal-Mart on Thursday. I plan to add the Survivor 410\45 Colt barrel soon.

MAX100
October 13, 2007, 07:45 PM
The single shot shotguns are good but they are limited and are not good for what most need a shotgun for. You still gave your money to Marlin and Wal-Mart and they are both giving their money to China so I don't see the difference.

You must have found it hard to walk into Wal-Mart and being surrounded by so many products made in China.


You should have bought a Remington. They are now offering very attractive rebates on their shotguns. If you go for an Express check it over good and make sure you are getting good one. Use the review as a guide for what to look for.



GC

MCgunner
October 13, 2007, 08:01 PM
Hell, I bought a Remington a while back.....says "made in Russia" on it.:scrutiny: Get a Maverick, made in TEXAS BY GAWD!!!!!! :D

Blue Brick
October 13, 2007, 08:22 PM
If all the toothbrushes are made in China, I have to either purchase a China made toothbrush or go without. Firearms on the other hand are still made in the good old USA, so I buy American.

Blue Brick
October 13, 2007, 08:25 PM
Mavericks- Made in Mexico

MAX100
October 13, 2007, 09:56 PM
Some of the steel US firearms manufactures use comes from China. I am all for supporting the USA made product but I do that by voting in the best Politicians I can and let them sort things out. It is hard to say what you are buying now. There is a little bit of China in everything we own. When I make purchases I look for the best quality for the price, firearms included.

I like Mossberg a lot but I don't care for the Maverick line.



GC

Pistolman36
August 1, 2009, 04:00 PM
I just bought a Pardner 870 knockoff and Im quite pleased with it. Nice fitting parts, seems good quality, cant beat the price.

As for an 870, I like short barrels, and the cheapest 870 is well over 300, so the idea of saving over 100 bucks appeals to me.

hub
August 1, 2009, 07:00 PM
Hey pistolman36 welcome to THR. I saw your post and noticed you had just joined. I'm sure you didn't notice before you submitted your post but the last post in this thread before yours was two years ago so it's been dead for awhile.

jlv08
August 2, 2009, 01:30 AM
I have the Pardner Pump in 12 and 20, blued and walnut, I was skeptical about these guns at first but after taking the plunge, I am very satisfied.

I am sick and tired of the redneck attitude and bias of those folks who run someone down because of a guns origin or that someone didn't buy American so I'll render an opinion.

To the matter at hand. My experience with the Pardner has been nothing but positive and I do not give a tinkers dam about the comparison to the Express shotgun.

THEY ARE DIFFERENT GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOT THAT??????

If it is judged on that context, then objectivity regarding quality should be the rule, not the exception.

I have alot of experience with working with metals and do know a little about

metallurgy

and will say, after my inspection of the fit and machining , and I am a

qualified nuclear inspector that deals with metals and strict dimensions on a

daily basis, find these shotguns built to a

degree that very well should have loyal Remington owners, as well as

Mossbergs, panties in a wad and rightly so!

This board is suffering from "China Syndrome" and it is clearly reflected in the

bias towards those who like the Pardner shotgun.

The gun dealers I talk to that sell these guns know better as well and they, at least the ones I've talked to, like the Pardner and sell out of them when they get them in.

If I wanted a Remington, and I have had a few in the past, I would buy one.

I also have had a slew of Mossbergs and loved them alot.

The Pardner came along and looked like good quality and so far has proved to be just that, a quality gun that I bought on its own merits and not because it was an 870 "clone".

IT"S A PARDNER PUMP.

They are as tough as an SKS and the Chinese took the SKS to another level after being tooled up by the Soviets.

Max 100, I'm with you brother and appreciate your courage in trying to be objective and sharing your experiences regarding a good gun.

Virginian
August 2, 2009, 05:55 AM
Anti Chinese bias - you damn straight.
They get poison in dog food and baby formula.
The put lead paint on kids toys.
Every time you pick up a paper, it's something else ridiculous.
They have screamed past the U.S. in noxious emissions and really do not give a hoot. Obama is preaching that horrendous capand trade, and they are practicing pollute and don't give a hoot.
I won't even touch on their "inhuman" rights policies.
It is extremely difficult to buy anything that has Made in U.S.A. on it anymore period, and I will buy American made whenever I can without getting ripped off. And I don't give a Tinker's Dam if you like that or not.

jlv08
August 2, 2009, 09:04 AM
Wow, Virginian I'm impressed. You are really on top of things I see.

Well,I'll just crawl back in my space with my horrible cheap Chinese junk shotgun and break out the crying towel.:rolleyes:

SHEEEESH!!!

Howaido
August 2, 2009, 09:34 AM
China is cool. :evil:

crossrhodes
August 2, 2009, 02:15 PM
NEF is now owned by Remington (Cerberus) and is why they stopped the law on the NEF 870 knock off. Interesting days ahead!

Guns - out

swampboy
August 2, 2009, 03:48 PM
To the matter at hand. My experience with the Pardner has been nothing but positive and I do not give a tinkers dam about the comparison to the Express shotgun.

THEY ARE DIFFERENT GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

True. Sorta. It IS an 870 "clone".

If it is judged on that context, then objectivity regarding quality should be the rule, not the exception.

Moot point. The Pardner is a better shotgun than the Express. Also, IMHO, the only valid opinions on the issue of comparing the two are from from people who own and shoot BOTH.

Anti Chinese bias - you damn straight.
They get poison in dog food and baby formula.
The put lead paint on kids toys.

True enough, but the Chinese do know how to make guns.

NEF is now owned by Remington (Cerberus)



And as soon as Remington gets their housekeeping done, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see the Pardner discontinued and manufacturing of the Express line moved off shore. Purely speculation on my part, but in today's global business mindset, it (at least in my feeble mind) is almost a given.

Wayne G.
August 2, 2009, 04:06 PM
For the love of Pete! Looks like the death of this thread was merely a 2 year coma.

Its a clone, made in China, much like the "fakepoint" red dot scopes. If you have one and you're happy with it, good on you. If you want to trade your 870 for one, lemme know-I'll make that deal happen.

out

jlv08
August 2, 2009, 05:06 PM
Well, if you want to trade Pardners for 870's... that means you have a bunch of Pardners stashed away.:rolleyes: I'll up the ante.. let's see....
I'll jump over ten AR 15's for one rusted bolt AK 47.....>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why?
Listen carefully, because they work and are as reliable as gravity!!

Just like my Pardners.:D

I was skeptical about these pumps but now am convinced that they are good guns.

I would say those who hate Chinese goods are singing in a hurricane due to the fact that these guns are legally imported and sold to the American consumer.

If folks are so concerned and carry so much angst with Chinese goods, then the only thing you would be buying is groceries!!!:cuss:

RandKL
August 2, 2009, 05:21 PM
And as soon as Remington gets their housekeeping done, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see the Pardner discontinued and manufacturing of the Express line moved off shore. Purely speculation on my part, but in today's global business mindset, it (at least in my feeble mind) is almost a given.

Careful there, Swamp. I said the same thing and got cussed by the "experts" for a week. ;)

rich

smithmax
August 2, 2009, 05:26 PM
If folks are so concerned and carry so much angst with Chinese goods, then the only thing you would be buying is groceries!!!

A lot of our groceries come from Mexico, and a lot of the guys who won't buy China won't buy Mexico either. Ipso facto, they won't be buying groceries either.

Anyways, the biggest (only?) argument I hear against these cheap shotguns is that they aren't made by American workers in the US. I was pleasantly surprised when my new maverick worked perfectly it's first day on the range, no problems at all.

Wayne G.
August 2, 2009, 06:23 PM
Update...


The Remington 870 is no longer THE standard by which all other pump action shotguns are judged. That exclusive honor now goes to the NEF Pardner wonderpump!


In an effort to help others, I will stand by my offer to exchange your inferior 870 for one of these modern Chinese marvels! No limit per household. See errornet for further hype and details.

MAX100
August 2, 2009, 08:07 PM
The Remington 870 is no longer THE standard by which all other pump action shotguns are judged. That exclusive honor now goes to the NEF Pardner wonderpump!

The Pardner Pump is just a tough as nails reliable pump shotgun and is a heck of a deal.

The 870 has lost some ground in the last few years because of the QC problems it's been having with shells sticking the chamber. Remington needs to make some changes.

Do a Google search on the Wonder-Pump - Pardner Protector, Type in the following and see what you come up with.

Pardner Pump jamming One maybe two threads with a 20Ga PP having a problem.


Now type in Remington 870 jamming - problem problem problem after problem.


GC

rbernie
August 2, 2009, 08:15 PM
This thread is two years old.

Those who want to save $40 can buy the Chinese copy of an American classic, made by the communist state-run Red Army armaments industry. Those that want to pay $40 extra for the cheapened American version of an American classic can buy the 870 Express. And those that really are on the ball can buy a lightly used 870 Wingmaster for about the same money as the NIB Express and bypass this whole silly debate altogether.

Did I capture the essence of the arguments correctly? :rolleyes:

If you enjoyed reading about "Remington 870 Express VS. NEF Pardner Pump Test" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!