Nancy Dis(Grace)


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SGT. SHLITZ
October 8, 2007, 07:30 PM
Last night on the Nancy Grace show they did a small segment on Home Invasions and how to protect yourself. They went on to say that H.I.s are on the rise and homeowners should invest in dead-bolt locks, window bars, and motion detection lights. NOT ONE MENTION OF FIREARMS OR ANY OTHER WEAPON WHATSOEVER! I guess we are just outta luck if the locks and lights are defeated. I guess I am to take comfort that Nancy will do a piece on my girlfriend and I if we are murdered by a POS. :cuss:

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ClickClickD'oh
October 8, 2007, 07:37 PM
You know, the one thing I never see brought up by the people that suggest fortifying your house? Consider:

Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

Dorryn
October 8, 2007, 07:40 PM
Having secure locks on windows and doors is still wise, however.

If we look at the logic in reverse, we should leave our doors open to criminals, given that we have the firearms to protect ourselves, and (presumably) our neighbors do not. Yes?

SGT. SHLITZ
October 8, 2007, 07:45 PM
I guess so, ClickClick. Pass the buck instead of the ammo.

SGT. SHLITZ
October 8, 2007, 07:51 PM
Heh, heh.
I never looked at it like that, Dorryn.

230RN
October 8, 2007, 07:53 PM
There have been a bunch of prearation-for-disaster items which have been panned by the gun community of late for neglecting to mention one of the most important tools for survival --i.e., firearms.

There was a thread recently here on THR which mentioned the recent article in Mechanics Illustrated*, for example. No mention of those hard steel thingies that go bangie and clanky.

I also found that the Colorado Prepared literature, which is an offshoot of the National preparedness brochures do not mentione firearms.

Sooo... if an extreme disaster strikes, make sure you have enough guns and ammo to go around in your neighborhood. :)

Their philsophy seems to be "Be Prepared," but not too much. Just make sure you've got beans and TP is all.

-----------
* Or maybe it was Popular Mechanics. Don't remember, don't mattter anyhow.

Ala Dan
October 8, 2007, 07:56 PM
Yeah, Nancy dis-Grace is something else; very much opinionated and has
loose lips, expressing her view only. I'm quite sure she doesn't live in 'da
hood; but rather in the 'burbs that are well protected. And as we know,
the closer it gets to the Christmas season; the more home invasions will
be on the increase. Hell NO, I ain't fix'in to trade my firearms for dead
bolt locks, security doors, and proper lighting~! :eek:;)

jefnvk
October 8, 2007, 07:57 PM
Think of it this way:

1) The house already has a gun. No reason to talk about it.
2) The house probably has a reason for not ownign a gun. Talkign about it probably isn't going to change their mind.

I don't think that there are a lot of people out there that have never considered a gun for defense. It is good that they are showing tips for those that won't own a firearm, as stupid as some on these boards think they are, they don't deserve to be hurt. There are just some people that aren't going to own a gun for defense.

Blackbeard
October 8, 2007, 09:03 PM
I think the reason no one says to get a firearm for self-defense is that they don't want the potential liability. If someone gets killed while using a firearm in self-defense, their family could claim that the advice to defend himself got the victim killed. Of course, the argument is BS and probably wouldn't hold up in court, but who needs that aggravation? It's safer to advise people not to resist, I'm sad to say.

Dave Markowitz
October 8, 2007, 09:08 PM
Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

:rolleyes:

So I shouldn't take reasonable steps to secure my home? Taking your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, I'd leave the front door wide open.

thebaldguy
October 8, 2007, 09:10 PM
Maybe Nancy Grace lives in a really nice neighborhood?

mek42
October 8, 2007, 09:13 PM
Of course, the argument is BS but probably would hold up in court,

Stranger, less rational cases have been won, so I fixed it for you.

Outlaws
October 8, 2007, 09:13 PM
Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

You don't have kids do you?

Highland Ranger
October 8, 2007, 09:14 PM
Locks are good.

Get a big dog.

Make sure everyone in the house is dangerous i.e. can shoot and otherwise defend themselves.

Valkman
October 8, 2007, 09:15 PM
Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

That doesn't even make sense - I have no idea what my neighbors do for security nor do I wish them harm. Smart people take steps to ward off criminals and if they have to, to defend themselves. To leave your house undefended to save your neighbors would be the height of ignorance.

scurtis_34471
October 8, 2007, 09:16 PM
I have a deadbolt. I have motion lights. I used to have a dog. I wouldn't mind having an alarm. Those are all good things. They deter the less determined. They also make silent entry rather difficult. In other words, they help make sure I know someone's coming. I'll rely on my XD-40 after that.

ABTOMAT
October 8, 2007, 09:20 PM
Guns don't do a whit of good if you don't have the chance to use them. Defense starts at the door. There have been enough cases of complete surprise attacks I feel it's important to think of physical security. One THR member was the victim of an appalling home invasion that probably couldn't have been stopped once it started.

Geno
October 8, 2007, 09:28 PM
I am relatively certain that Ms. Grace"less" lives in a secured building, with security personnel and cameras, etc. Reality is, she probably doesn't even know the brand name of the locks on her own door. Her hollow words merely give comfort to other equally ignorant people, people who misbelieve that the police arrive 2 seconds after calling, and that criminals fear alarms. Fact is, even the most elaborate security systems can be circumvented. In those instances, a 1.25 Oz slug of hard, hot lead traveling at 1,600 FPS will force a reconsideration of their intent to invade your space.

Just my redneck opinion,

Doc2005

springmom
October 8, 2007, 09:33 PM
Hell NO, I ain't fix'in to trade my firearms for dead
bolt locks, security doors, and proper lighting~

Well, it isn't an either/or.... :neener: We have all of the above, although the lighting isn't on a motion sensor (yet).

Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

:what::what::what: That last sentence is reprehensible. Protecting myself and my family has nothing to do with hoping my neighbor is a victim of crime. It is, however, THEIR responsibility to make their homes safe, as it is OUR responsibility to make ours safe. The idea that we shouldn't take precautions because the thief may go next door is just nutty.

Springmom

Jeff White
October 8, 2007, 10:09 PM
SGT. SHLITZ said;
They went on to say that H.I.s are on the rise and homeowners should invest in dead-bolt locks, window bars, and motion detection lights. NOT ONE MENTION OF FIREARMS OR ANY OTHER WEAPON WHATSOEVER!

Without good locks on your doors and windows, and motion detector lights and an early warning device to wake you up, the bad guys are going to be in your house pointing your GAU-17 mini gun at your head when they wake you you up. Firearms and other weapons are only a very tiny part of the solution.

When it comes right down to it, the guy who has good locks on his doors and windows, motion detector lights, an alarm system and/or dog, but wouldn't have a firearm within 100 meters of his home, is safer in his bed at night then the guy with the cocked and locked 1911 under his pillow and the ultimate street sweeping shotgun next to his bed, who has cheap pre-hung doors with bolts that go all of 3/4 inch into the jamb and windows that don't lock because they are 40 years old and have never been updated.

ClickClickD'oh said;

Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

First off, unless you took an oath to enforce the law, routinely wear blue tights and a cape and work for a major metropolitan newspaper, crime fighting is not your job. It's not your job to look after society as whole. It's your job to look after you and yours. No one else.

I'd like some clarification of what you mean by the last line in your statement. What do you think the American way is? Do you intend to decoy the bad guys into your carefully planned L shaped ambush to save your less prepared neighbors?

Jeff

Kentak
October 8, 2007, 10:28 PM
Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

I know you didn't mean to sound dumb, but think about what you're saying. The logical equivalent of your statement is to say we should leave our doors and windows unlocked and post a sign to that effect. All so we'll be victimized instead of our neighbors.

K

SGT. SHLITZ
October 8, 2007, 10:49 PM
I think Markowitz meant, was that the average person doesn't take home defense seriously as long as it's happening to the other guy.

Of coarse I have all the locks, lights, bang and whistles. However, if those were to fail me, the POS will experience lead-in the head syndrome.

XLMiguel
October 8, 2007, 10:57 PM
While, locks, lights, good physical security in general is all good, I'm surprised that there has been no mention of bad guys gaining entry thru subterfuge (e.g. fake pizza delivery, someone 'looking for directions', want to use the phone, etc) rather than physical force. Trickery can overcome physical security, there's no substitute for good old paranoia and situational awareness when answering the door (with a .45 in your back pocket).

Macpherson
October 8, 2007, 11:19 PM
Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

I may be way off base but it seems that many have misintepreted this statement. I understand Click to be saying that fortifying your house doesn't offer any sort of deterrence to the criminal element, whereas a firearm will. Also, it seems that a lot of the attitudes here are falling right in line with the point of what he was saying, that is, "I dont care about anyone but me and mine". If an intruder broke in and (heaven forbid) took your gun or overpowered you and began brutalizing your family, would you prefer your neighbor to look the other way? This doesn't mean setting ambushes, but it sure as heck means looking out for each other, and being willing to help.

ReadyontheRight
October 9, 2007, 12:56 AM
Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

I think CCD is suggesting somewhat of a Modest Proposal (http://books.google.com/books?id=QeXLky6uroIC&dq=&pg=PP1&ots=a7hnk--EwM&sig=BgBoAZECFcqecCNYJBt4x8ISxjA&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fsourceid%3Dnavclient%26ie%3DUTF-8%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-17,GGLD:en%26q%3Djonathan%2Bswift%2Bmodest%2Bproposal&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title#PPP1,M1). Pointing out a fallacy by bringing it to its extreme.

Hiding out from crime with ever-increasing levels of security will not stop criminals. Lethal force stops criminals, and I think we all agree here that force in the hands of non-criminals is a good thing. The more the better.

I'm guessing Ms. Grace (and most politicians) couldn't care less whether we all protect our families or not. If they did, they would expend their media efforts on a modern equivalent of "quartering and gibbeting" these criminal idiots when they are caught.

strambo
October 9, 2007, 01:24 AM
Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?I understand Click to be saying that fortifying your house doesn't offer any sort of deterrence to the criminal elementOf course it does, on a micro level...it deters them from your house.

Let's keep going with this. What if your neighbors on each side did fortify thier houses too? Well, then the crimninals would be deterred from your end of the block. What if the whole block fortified their homes? Then the criminals would be a. deterred from your neighborhod or b. incur higher risks breaking into homes on your block and get caught at a higher rate.

What if your whole town took these measures? Same as above...the ante will be upped for the time and effort required to break into homes. The crimes of opportunity will be reduced drastically, the lower end criminals will get caught. Overall burglaries will go down.

Same with CCW and self defense training. I can't control what other people do, but my H2H skills and CCW don't make them any less safe. If they upped their awareness and skills then the risk/reward ratio for violent crime would change. More criminals would get caught or injured.

Protecting your home, family and self is being part of the solution. If everyone did that, crime would go down (less easy victims, everyone a hard target). So, those who do not provide for thier security are the ones who encourage criminals by being such easy victims.

ClickClickD'oh
October 9, 2007, 01:31 AM
Okay, I see that some people caught that I wasn't seriously advocating we all sit around and hope our neighbors get victimized.

Now for the nitty gritty. Bars are fine, unless your house is on fire. Motion lights are nifty, but don't really help in a fenced in yard. Dogs are great, unless the BG brings beef. Locks are dandy, unless they BG knows how to bump. They're all devices. They are all easily overcome by a determined BG. A gun is great. Hey, I've got thirty or so. I recomend ever person of sound mental facilities get one an learn how to use it properly. But I never want to go down that road again if I can avoid it, and I sure as heck don't want to make it the lynch pin of my safety.

How many of you know your neighbors? How many of you look out the window when a dog starts barking? When is the last time you got off your couch because the neighbors car alarm went off, other than to yell for him to shut it off?

Being safe at home doesn't start with locks and security gadgets, it starts with community. So please, get a lock, get a gun and learn how to use it, even get some nifty lights with motion sensors if you want. But that's the inner circle of defense, not the outer circle. It's reactive, not proactive. If you are counting on locks and a firearm as your defense strategy you've already accepted the victimhood mentality. No, most people here haven't taken an oath to defend others. Does that mean that the security concerns of others shouldn't be a consideration? A little rational thought on the subject should reveal the falacy in that thought. The best defense of yourself is ensuring the predators are nowhere around. Not just not at your house. Not on your block. Not in your neighborhood. Don't believe me? Consider this. How many of you want a crack house next door? None, right? Exactly.

Any good defensive scheme is layered. The gun is the inner most, and most desperate. Then the bars, lights and locks. Your outer defensive layer are your neighbors, your neighborhood and your community. How many of you can currently say that your outermost defensive layer is strong?

For the person that asked what I thought the American way was? I think it's standing strong and defiant together in the face of evil to overcome adversion. I do believe a great American once said, "We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately" It applies to crime too guys.

Go talk to your neighbors.

Regolith
October 9, 2007, 01:51 AM
There was a thread recently here on THR which mentioned the recent article in Mechanics Illustrated*, for example. No mention of those hard steel thingies that go bangie and clanky.


It was either Popular Mechanics or Popular Science, or both. I do know that one of them printed a "Letter to the Editor" in the next issue that called them on it. They even picked a well written and concise one.

I do know that Popular Mechanics is not gun - unfriendly. They run Henry Repeating Arms adds in their magazines, and one of the items on their list for the "25 Things Every Man Should Know" article was "how to clean a bolt action rifle."

ReadyontheRight
October 9, 2007, 01:58 AM
Protecting your home, family and self is being part of the solution. If everyone did that, crime would go down (less easy victims, everyone a hard target). So, those who do not provide for thier security are the ones who encourage criminals by being such easy victims.

I certainly agree. But what bothers me is that there is not any sort of moral outrage over these criminals from the media or our elected "leaders". They are basically saying "hide...give us more tax money and we will protect you".

B as in "B"...S as in "S".

Even if we spent enough money on a police force large enough so that there were one police officer for every non-police-officer (a "man-to-man" defense:D), it would not be as effective as society deciding that we have had enough of these criminals.

I'm talking pitchforks and torches...cell phones and shotguns. We have become such coddled weenies as a society that invading homes has no recourse! Apparently it's our own fault that we didn't buy the latest locks and home security systems. Without them, we are just encouraging bad behavior.:rolleyes:

We need to get back to the local community hunting them down like the vermin they are and making sure they actually are punished. That's a role the news media used to serve. As much as I dislike the guy because he's just doing it for show, Bill O'Reilly is the only news person I know who actually expresses outrage and seeks out news stories to expose criminals slipping out of the system.

Instead of leading what should be our outrage, Ms. Grace, her network and every single other "News" network chooses to tell us how to hide and then quickly moves on to tell us what Brittany Spears is doing.

M_Olson
October 9, 2007, 02:34 AM
B as in "B"...S as in "S".

nothing like a little Garage Logic :D

ReadyontheRight
October 9, 2007, 02:41 AM
nothing like a little Garage Logic

Exactly... That was quick!

Mr White
October 9, 2007, 10:12 AM
C'mon people! Remember Brady's predecesor, HCI? They had a perfect 3-step plan for dealing with anyone who wants to rob you in any situation:

1. Give them what they want.
2. Wait til they leave.
3. Call the police.

See how easy it is. No need for big ugly locks on your doors. No need for loud, complicated alarm systems. No need for smelly, messy dogs. And certainly no need for scary, dangerous guns. Just follow the 3 simple steps and you'll be safe.

Like ReadyontheRight said: B as in "B"...S as in "S"

fletcher
October 9, 2007, 10:30 AM
Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

Yep. "Better them than me".

Taking basic steps to install things such as deadbolts will be effective to a certain extent (smashy window kinda renders the deadbolt useless), and I would recommend doing such things myself. However, a firearm, or even some decent weapon (bear spray or such) is an essential ingredient to home safety.

ilbob
October 9, 2007, 10:44 AM
Your first line of defense should be common sense stuff that are relatively inexpensive, and completely non-lethal like locking your doors (using decent locks) and adding motion detectors and alarm systems. These things have the added advantage of working pretty good when you are not there and when you are sleeping.

Granted these solutions are imperfect, but they will serve as an effective deterrent in most cases. And really, isn't it better to prevent a home invasion than to be forced to shoot it out in the dead of night with a home invader? There are an awful lot of things that can go wrong when you wake up at 3:00 am and think that maybe something is not quite right.

Ala Dan
October 9, 2007, 10:58 AM
Just as a follow up:

My Lebanese barber while born in Michigan City, IN [moved to the
"deep south" over 20 years ago]; does not believe in guns at all. His
shop is in a very dangerous area of my hometown; right across the
street from where several fatal shooting's have taken place. I once
said to him, "Norm you need to consider getting yourself a firearm
in order to protect yourself, as during the upcoming winter months
the days will be getting shorter". Norm says too me, "Dan I have
survived this long without the need of a firearm, so I don't think I
need one now; and besides I would probably end up shoot'in myself
with it". One would have to see his shop in person, and all of the
dudes that hang out at the "Red Rock" 24/7 stop and rob. I do
not frequent Norm's shop without at least two handguns on me
at all times~! ;)

After a recent '06 robbery, then break-in Norm still feels that way
today; even after I offered to instruct him in the proper use of a
firearm. :(

Euclidean
October 9, 2007, 11:10 AM
Some people don't have the nerve, temperament, willingness, or legal ability to own and operate a firearm.

My own sister doesn't care one way or the other for the things and isn't willing to do anything at all to learn the bare basics. She's honestly better off with better locks, doors, and windows than she is a firearm.

Some people live in places where getting a firearm is a tough process, one that invades your privacy, and if you used the firearm to defend yourself you'd wind up in jail anyway. Can you blame people in that situation for spending their money on better locks, windows, alarms, etc.?

Some people got caught with one joint in 1971 when they were 19 years old and haven't touched the stuff for over 30 years, have a master's degree and a stable marriage, and still can't legally own a firearm. What is this person supposed to do?

I sincerely believe most people would be surprised how easy it is to make your house more secure than most; many people don't even lock their deadbolt or put clamps on their windows.

mjrodney
October 9, 2007, 11:23 AM
The biggest reason I have good locks on my doors is to give me time to get to my firearm.

If someone suddenly kicked in my door and seconds later had a firearm pointed at me, I wouldn't have time to do anything except put my hands up.

I don't carry when sitting around the house in my skivvies.

A strong door and lock gives me time to "dress properly for the occasion".

frankcostanza
October 9, 2007, 12:02 PM
dont even get me started on nancy grace...


1. Give them what they want.
2. Wait til they leave.
3. Call the police.


didnt work out so well for the family in ct this summer. ill stick with my 870 thanks.

obxned
October 9, 2007, 12:06 PM
Good locks on strong doors - a few hundred dollars.

Bars for the windows - a few hundred more.

The look on the BG's face when several large, angry dogs 'greet' him at the door - priceless!

alucard0822
October 9, 2007, 12:10 PM
Hiding out from crime with ever-increasing levels of security will not stop criminals. Lethal force stops criminals, and I think we all agree here that force in the hands of non-criminals is a good thing. The more the better.


Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

The common beliefs held by most in our society (certainly not all) is that police and the law stop criminals, citizens are legally discouraged from doing so in many areas, and may become criminals themselves in all but the most clear cut cases with the best video/witnesses. This is a result of the society we live in, lock your doors, barricade your windows, install a good alarm, and if all else fails resort to lethal force as an alternative to death or grave injury.

I think the American way is that we have a constitutional right to not only keep, but to also bear arms. The rights to be secure in life, liberty, and our property. So, the "American way" would be for your neighbors to excercise their rights to fortify their houses and arm themselves in any way they see fit. It is not my obligation to protect my neighbors, but I choose to help where I can. I invite them shooting, lend a hand where needed, and keep an eye out for problems, and take actions I think are appropriate to prevent crime.
The number of criminals, and the methods of crime are not static. There are always going to be people who will not accept their place in an honest society, and since the dawn of time societies had some form of justice system to both punish criminals, and warn those following that path. Those who steer the direction of our "society" are politicians both large and small, and they have given up the idea of a justice system in favor of a legal system. There are millions of laws on the books, both to steer the opinions of jurors, to pad a dockett and ensure at least a partial conviction, to draw a "grey area" where the punishment is decided both by history and implied intent of the defendant. Criminal law has gotten so complicated that practically everything is "Illegal", but most criminal actions can be either explaned through "victimization" and he with the better lawyer is always right, or people can be aquitted by any one of thousands of technicalities and loopholes in the system for even the most heinous crimes.

Both a firearm and lock are useful in stopping the actions of criminals, but neither is anything other than a tool, both have to be used proficiently in order to be effective, and can be dangerous to the user if improperly used, a gun is obvious, a screwup in the installation of a lock may cause it to jam when you need to get out of the house. Security is nothing more than a mental state of awareness, and preparedness weighed against comfort. Some people are perfectly content relying on probability for their security as it costs nothing and requires no effort to be one of those who are NOT robbed, but people like us want something a little more concrete, layers of effective active and passive security, both in our homes, our vehicles, and our person.

geekWithA.45
October 9, 2007, 12:31 PM
NOT ONE MENTION OF FIREARMS OR ANY OTHER WEAPON WHATSOEVER!

Sgt Schlitz, with respect, I suggest you have not accepted the fact that the mainstream media is a puppet show designed to keep the somabulant masses entertained.

It is PlaySkool: Basic shapes, bright colors, and no sharp edges.

As such, you will not ever hear them ever recommend anything that might be complex, subtle, or contains sharp/pointy elements.

Arms are for autonomous people acting on their own authority. If they need to be -told- to get a gun, they probably shouldn't have one.

MarkDido
October 9, 2007, 06:26 PM
Probably a liability issue. If she advocated the use of firearms for self-protection, and some "never even held a gun" person bought one and shot the cat with it, they would probably sue her.

Grace already took enough heat from "interogating" Quentin Duckett's mother, who later committied suicide.

Outlaws
October 9, 2007, 07:12 PM
Okay, I see that some people caught that I wasn't seriously advocating we all sit around and hope our neighbors get victimized.

Now for the nitty gritty. Bars are fine, unless your house is on fire. Motion lights are nifty, but don't really help in a fenced in yard. Dogs are great, unless the BG brings beef. Locks are dandy, unless they BG knows how to bump. They're all devices. They are all easily overcome by a determined BG. A gun is great. Hey, I've got thirty or so. I recomend ever person of sound mental facilities get one an learn how to use it properly. But I never want to go down that road again if I can avoid it, and I sure as heck don't want to make it the lynch pin of my safety.

How many of you know your neighbors? How many of you look out the window when a dog starts barking? When is the last time you got off your couch because the neighbors car alarm went off, other than to yell for him to shut it off?

Being safe at home doesn't start with locks and security gadgets, it starts with community. So please, get a lock, get a gun and learn how to use it, even get some nifty lights with motion sensors if you want. But that's the inner circle of defense, not the outer circle. It's reactive, not proactive. If you are counting on locks and a firearm as your defense strategy you've already accepted the victimhood mentality. No, most people here haven't taken an oath to defend others. Does that mean that the security concerns of others shouldn't be a consideration? A little rational thought on the subject should reveal the falacy in that thought. The best defense of yourself is ensuring the predators are nowhere around. Not just not at your house. Not on your block. Not in your neighborhood. Don't believe me? Consider this. How many of you want a crack house next door? None, right? Exactly.

Any good defensive scheme is layered. The gun is the inner most, and most desperate. Then the bars, lights and locks. Your outer defensive layer are your neighbors, your neighborhood and your community. How many of you can currently say that your outermost defensive layer is strong?

For the person that asked what I thought the American way was? I think it's standing strong and defiant together in the face of evil to overcome adversion. I do believe a great American once said, "We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately" It applies to crime too guys.

Go talk to your neighbors.

Now we also know you don't live in a ghetto. How does this community thing help those who don't live in a rich neighborhood? You talk like locks don't do much because anyone can bump a lock. Well I got news for you...the common criminal can't pick a lock. The common criminal is looking for the path of least resistance and is generally a crime of opportunity. Simply locking your door is a big thing. You can never get rid of the danger 100%, but talking to your neighbors does not trump a deadbolt on the door. Your neighbor has a life too, so unless you have a firewatch going on, that deadbolt is very important, and the silent alarm is the icing on the cake. ...of course, if you happen to be home, a 45 in the hand beats 10 members of a neighborhood watch out on the town Saturday night. But then that takes us right back to protecting your own and letting your neighbors home get broken into, right?

ConfuseUs
October 10, 2007, 04:34 AM
Last night on the Nancy Grace show they did a small segment on Home Invasions and how to protect yourself. They went on to say that H.I.s are on the rise and homeowners should invest in dead-bolt locks, window bars, and motion detection lights. NOT ONE MENTION OF FIREARMS OR ANY OTHER WEAPON WHATSOEVER! I guess we are just outta luck if the locks and lights are defeated. I guess I am to take comfort that Nancy will do a piece on my girlfriend and I if we are murdered by a POS.

Since Cruddy News Network used to be on 24/7 in the break rooms where I work (Thankfully they've decided to change that) I used to walk by and watch this piece of work "at work". My impression of Nancy Grace is that she cries crocodile tears on the air when some poor kid disappears, some young woman is kidnapped, raped, and murdered, Michael Vick beats pit bulls to death, some guy goes off the deep end and kills his wife and kids, etc etc etc. It's more likely that off camera/in the deep recesses of her mind she pumps her fist and yells "YES! THANK YOU GOD FOR MAKING ME RICHER AND MORE FAMOUS!" when she gets word of someone's awful misfortune because then she has material for yet another hour of histerics/histrionics.

At any rate, now you know why the segment was small. And why she did nothing to encourage self defense.:scrutiny:

U.S.SFC_RET
October 10, 2007, 06:13 AM
For women who live alone Don't own a gun! The criminal will take it from you and shoot you with it! I have heard that baloney. Go and find a qualified NRA instructor and take charge of your own protection. The police will usually get there in time to write notes and photograph the crime scene.

wally
October 10, 2007, 07:26 AM
I grew up when you could buy guns by mail order (except in crime-ridden New Your City), everybody had them, and nobody locked their cars or doors. I've seen crime rise as gun ownership has been made more and more restrictive.

Home invasions and driveway ambushes are a growing trend! If you don't have a CHL get one!

--wally.

ClickClickD'oh
October 10, 2007, 11:24 AM
Now we also know you don't live in a ghetto. How does this community thing help those who don't live in a rich neighborhood? That is the most seriously ignorant thing I've seen yet today. Do you seriously believe that only rich folks can know their neighbors and form a cohesive community? What, because some people live in poor neighborhoods their only option is to cower in their homes in fear of the criminals lurking in the streets? Hardly.

Here's some light reading:
http://www.carolinapeacemaker.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=81302&sID=4

There are hundreds of stories like this in inner city communities around the nation. The most successful community awareness programs are in poor neighborhoods.

You talk like locks don't do much because anyone can bump a lockSledge hammers also work a fine dandy job on locks. You are right in one regard. Most criminals don't pick locks. They smash the door open.

The common criminal is looking for the path of least resistance and is generally a crime of opportunity.Really? Then why are we talking about home invasions? Home invasions are most certainly not the path of least resistance in the criminal world.

You can never get rid of the danger 100%, but talking to your neighbors does not trump a deadbolt on the door.
Please read what you responded to... because the fact that you bothered to type that tells me one of two things happened: 1) You didn't read what I wrote -or- 2) You didn't comprehend it. Focus or paragraph four.

The Wiry Irishman
October 10, 2007, 12:58 PM
I saw a story like this on Indianapolis local news a while back. Some lady was coming out of a grocery store and nearly had her purse snatched while getting into her van. I guess the guy punched her in the head or something, too. Some sort of assault, but nothing serious that would merit a trip to the hospital.

The news people went ape over it, talked about how terrible it was, then had a special segment on parking lot self defense with sage advice ranging from looking all around you and scurrying to your car as fast as you can to strategically placing your cart near your car and if you're really scared maybe buying some pepper spray. No mention of a completely legal concealed firearm, and attempts resist any sort of attack were cast in a dangerous light.

I also wondered why the parking lot lady that suffered really nothing more than a very bad evening merited a special self-defense segment when they had covered two murders and a string of arsons in the same newscast. Further support for shutting of your TV and thinking for yourself, I guess.

The Wiry Irishman
October 10, 2007, 01:04 PM
Also - Apartment dwellers like me are often barred from home fortification by our leases. In that case, a firearm is the one and only recourse.

charon
October 10, 2007, 02:02 PM
Nancy is about as anti as the best of them. I was clicking through about a year or so ago and caught a segment on a shooting where some punk used one of his father's firearms from his collection to shoot some people.

She dwelled on the hundred or so guns, all the ammo -- typical media "arsenal" stuff. The kid used mainly, as I remember a "sporting" use shotgun, which in the perverse way things are today was a relief to me. And, obviously, the punk brought with him 1-2 firearms tops and the gross quantity his father owned had no relevance at all on the actual crime. Anyway, she went on a rant about the father's gun collection (like it eclipsed the actual crime in evilness) with a look of disgust on her face like she took a big bite out of a feces sandwich.

What a tool.

JamisJockey
October 10, 2007, 03:21 PM
Making your house into an unbreachable fortress of virtual security, besides being annoying to live in, only has one real effect on crime. It causes the criminal to go next door to the less fortified house. Is this crime fighting the New American Way? Hope your neighbor keeps raped, robbed and murdered instead of you?

yes. Better them than me. What, do I want to invite the criminal in and hope that I get the drop on him before he ties me up, executes me and my family and steals everything in the house? No, I'd rather force him to move along. And if more people took that stance....why gee, there'd be fewer houses for criminals to rob....duh....

hso
October 10, 2007, 03:43 PM
Any good defensive scheme is layered. The gun is the inner most, and most desperate. Then the bars, lights and locks. Your outer defensive layer are your neighbors, your neighborhood and your community. How many of you can currently say that your outermost defensive layer is strong? ... Go talk to your neighbors.

Sound advice. A gun doesn't make us safe, it's for self defense when all our layers of security/defense have failed.

We have plenty of people that will spend hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on multiple firearms without paying a fraction of that for a monitored alarm system or motion sensor lights or fences or professional grade locks or antishatter glass treatments or landscaping that keeps the wolf from the door. Not many of us even know our neighbors on each side and across the street much less everyone in a half mile radius. How many talk to them about looking out for each other and share ideas on how to keep the neighborhood safe?

Outlaws
October 10, 2007, 05:26 PM
That is the most seriously ignorant thing I've seen yet today. Do you seriously believe that only rich folks can know their neighbors and form a cohesive community? What, because some people live in poor neighborhoods their only option is to cower in their homes in fear of the criminals lurking in the streets? Hardly.

Ignorant? Not all neighborhoods are full of these community oriented people you speak of. That is naive to suggest that most communities are proactive. You know how many people showed up to our block watch meeting a couple months back? 6. 6 of us out of about 30 homes (give or take) on this street. If someone wants to break into a neighbors home, I will call the cops, but I won't assume any responsibility from an alarm system sign on the front lawn that might have made them the chosen target rather than me.

ClickClickD'oh
October 10, 2007, 05:35 PM
That is naive to suggest that most communities are proactive.Actually, I believe my whole premise from the start is that the vast majority of people aren't nearly pro-active enough in regards to their community... and that's part of the problem. The problem isn't that it can't be done, it's that it isn't being done. Not doing anything about it not being done won't help one bit at all either.

So like I said. You can get a lock, a light and a gun, and wait for the criminals to come. They will come in time if that's all you do, because you forgot to build a bailey around your keep.

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