[DeltaElite]

Seriously folks, do you believe that depts that pay more, get better quality applicants?
I do, I see it all the time.
Now there are screw ups in all depts, but some cops make $7 and hour and some make $30 an hour.
Do you think that the better applicants work at the higher paying agencies, for the most part.
Heck, security guards in my town make more than $7 an hour.

Let's hear your thoughts.

[benewton]

Isn't that the same argument used to emplant "full time" legislatures?

And, wouldn't the results be about the same?

Or, perhaps, given the state of the cities and the "coastal" regions, maybe they already have been.

Never use Smilies, but, if they can get the barfer back, I'd have tried here!

[El Tejon]

Of course! LE is not exempt from market forces. TANSTAAFL.

[DeltaElite]

You are correct, it is the same argument, but not the same also.
If you want to recruit college educated applicants into Le, where are they gonna apply?
At a PD that pays 15k a year or one that pays 35k a year to start?

If you want quality people to become cops, then you have to be competitive with other entry level jobs in the work force for people with college educations.

I still believe that you get what you pay for.

[rock jock]

Of course! LE is not exempt from market forces.
Exactly my thoughts. You can't expect anybody to be a "professional" anything for $10 an hour. In my area, wehave LOTS of prisons, one large federal and two state. The federal correctional officers are head and shoulders above the state folks in terms of professionalism, training, work environment, and education. Oh, and they get paid a lot more, too.

[PATH]

My town pays a very high salary to its PD. All the ones who are considered generally have college and have scored 97 or better on the test.

I would rather the pick of the cream of the crop rather than get Barney Fife. My taxes are high but my crime rate is vvveeeerrryyy
low!

[Cal4D4]

In another thread I outlined approx pay expectations where I live. Our force is professional, courteous and pretty well paid. City gets to pick and choose amongst applicants a bit and they can avoid ones that bring too much baggage. I don't know how much goes into training, but it appears if you don't put it out in training, you will end up spending it on legal fees defending their actions. Possible down side is the police union is a very powerful political force within the city structure.

[DeltaElite]

C'mon, there is usually no shortage of opinions on cops....
What about this thread????
Huh, huh, huh..... :neener: :neener:

[4v50 Gary]

A couple of other things you need. Good chief who isn't a political hack. (S)he works with the managers and supervisors (read that as Capt., Lts & sergeants) to build a cohesive workforce. Good hiring/selection process to delete the "gung-ho" types who live for the badge and can be abusive of their authority. Good training and constant reinforcement of said training. High standards, always and throughout the organization - not political correctness.

A few outside things can also make a difference. Media relations with media that is fair and honest and not into sensationalism. Public support and not the B.S. screaming of "racisim" everytime a cop makes an arrest or gets into a fight.

BTW, better paid cops are less likely to succumb to bribes.

[beemerb]

I am no expert on what areas pay the most but I will assume places like LA pay the best.Look at all the scandle taking place there with the police force.
I think leadership is a big factor in how a police force does their job.A good leader inspires their people even if they are not the top graduates.Allso education isn't allways a test of a good officer.Too much lack of common sense in a lot of highly educated people.Saw a lot of that in the army.
Just my opinion
Bob

[clem]

Here is something to read about. It ain't really about pay, but it's about LE and interesting.

http://www.pcdsa.org/Nemesis_1.htm

[DeltaElite]

Education by no means makes one a good cop, but it doesn't hurt.
I work with a guy that is a good cop, but his report writing is on a grade school level. :(
He needs some education badly.

High pay definitely doesn't prevent you from getting dirty cops.
However, the highest pay is usually in your very large cities, which have the greatest problems with corruption.
Maybe, because no one wants to work in them.

I would skip pay raises the rest of my career to work for a competent command staff that backed its cops when they are right, instead of just hanging them out to dry.
Leadership is a concept that is sadly missing in Le, it has become about management and budgets, not about leadership.
Clem's link shows that to be true in that case also.

[JPM70535]

Generally the old adage that you get what you pay for holds true. As with any statement there are exceptions. I personally know an officer who works for a small town PD in La. He is an excellent officer who has been on the job for over 20 years. He is at present the asst. chief and makes the magnificent salary of $25,000. He turned down an appointment to the State Police Academy at a salary that at the time was almost twice what he was making. When I asked him why, his answer was that he enjoyed city police work and was not in LE for the money.

Having said that, I also know many dedicated officers who moved from dept. to dept. chaseing the higher salary, and no one should fault them for that. The sad fact is that this leaves the smaller depts. dependant on other than top notch personnel,which can result in les than steller performance

A reply to this thread said it all

TAANSTAFFL

[rock jock]

You know, Delta, you raise a good point about the relation of pay to the quality of candidates. I remember back in the 80's you really saw a transition in LE (as least I perceived a change as a non-LEO looking from the outside in) with an emphasis on making PD's more professional. There was talk of making a BS degree mandatory for new recruits, AND, of raising salaries in a commensurate fashion to lure kids out of college into the job. The question I have is, how do LE salaries compare to other service-oriented professions since this time? Have they risen at the same rate? Are they comparable to, say, a starting position in sales or teaching? IOW, has there been any actual effort made to "professionalize" LE, or has it mainly been lip service?

[DeltaElite]

I dunno Rock Jock.
I know that our Fire guys get the same annual wage that I do, but how those wages compare to changes in salaries in the private sector over the last 15 years or so, I don't know.

Ok what does TAANSTAFFL mean? I am stymied.

[Cal4D4]

Out here, the wage structure gets published annually. I don't remember when it comes out but the major papers usually carry the numbers. Shooting from memory, 9 mo teacher's salary with around 5 years on the job average 53-56K with many possible enhancements for working in rough areas, multilingual and such. Same 5 years PD around 60K with ways to boost it up, fireman a bit less. Private sector equivs are hard to find. Good stuff starts with school principal in 85K range, school superintendent 100K+, chief of police in the six figures, fire chief same or little less. Public employment with generous bennies and all has pretty well outstripped any equivalents in private sector (IMHO). Hit this topic again after latest figures are out and I can site sources and more exact numbers. Top positions are very political in schools, PD and Fire. Grant application writer has become a good position also.

[rock jock]

Those salaries sound great, but should be footnoted as pegged to "Kali" wages. Talking with other engineers who live out west, a salary for any job needs to be about 30-50% higher in Ca. than the rest of the country to make up for the high cost of living. I remember when I got of school, there was another engineer who graduated the same time as me who was moving to LA, enticed by a starting salary of $48K for the city. He was really bragging about that until he moved out there and rented a small apartment in a cheesy neighborhood for $850 a month. He wasn't bragging after that.

[TheeBadOne]

Cal4D4 those are some pretty great sounding pay rates. The guys around here aren't getting near that.

[dinosaur]

Where I live we have 3 full time and 9 part time slots. One of the full timers is the Chief. He`s a good administrator and street cop, but our crimes are usually petty with the occasional violent family dispute thrown in. He makes under $40,000 a year.

The part timers make $9 an hour with no benefits. Most are P.T. with other dep`ts to make a living. Consequently there`s no loyalty as they`re looking for full time positions. We`re always losing the sharper ones to the Staties or the larger full time dep`ts.

There`s no higher rank to aspire to and full time status is limited. We just got rid of the longest full timer as he was incompetant at best and a thief. The town council was annoyed that he was stealing more than they were so it was the last straw.

Even on a "Podunk" dep`t like ours, you still want competant, sharp officers especially in these times. To get that you have to pay them more.

[JMLV]

the overall quality of the applicants its not the only thing. an example would be the NJSP nicely paid but one of the most nazi esk police units out there. I think recent recruting technecs as well as doiffering criteria these days as well as the highly miltary look and feel are as much to blame for the "I am god" attudude among LEO. affermtive action and dumbing down the requirments to get more passing minorities and woman on the force are factors as well(I don't care what color you are or if you are female IF you can pass the same requirements to be an LEO that used to be in place befour affermtive action. I mean the strength staminia hight weight requirements etc of the previous generations. Of course this would mean fewer 100 lb female officers. unless they were really good)
Also the mood of a dept is based on the mood of the govt it serves. If that govt feels all civilians are subjects to be ruled that attidude will be passed down to the rank and file as policy(witness chicage and daily)JMHO
As another poster said I am not anti-LEO, I am anti jackbooted thug LEO.
Now if only we could clone Lawdog and ship him out to the other less enlightened states! :D

[Tamara]

The biggest contrast I ever saw was between APD (Atlanta Police Department) and FCPD (Fulton County Police Department).

APD wanted folks who were 19+, had graduated high school, and could fog a mirror held in front of their mouths. Starting salary was about that of a cashier at Home Depot. While I knew many good APD officers, I knew even more that I wouldn't trust with a burnt-out match, much less a loaded gun and the keys to a car.

FCPD required a 4-yr degree or a few years experience as an MP or equivalent in the military and offered a starting salary commensurate with a junior-woodchuck white collar job, and as a result had the most uniformly mature and professional officers of any department I've had personal experience with.

You get what you pay for, all right.

[Cal4D4]

TheeBadOne:

rock jock pretty well nailed it. Housing is probably the biggest equalizer of all. Crippling prices. Lifestyle here will suck up any other differences. We got a start in the '70s before all the madness. The hardest part is with my 3 boys. Entry level jobs don't pay great and trying to start a career and family usually requires moving to outlying areas. I worked for years where my bosses had to commute an hour+ to my commute of 10 minutes. I have been fortunate and my folks have a good work ethic. I am a bit blown away with what some of the public sector jobs pay, but it gets worse. Top spots in city gov - comptroller, whatever that is - got around $150k/year, subsidized loan for a then $750k house, golden parachute of approx $750k when ousted by city politics and guaranteed buyback of his house. City felt this was necessary to lure him into our city. Go figure. Point of trivia, the house he bought was just down the street from where Det. Mark Fuhrman lived (in a smaller house) before all the OJ trial mess. Don't envy the wages until you pencil out the bottom line. For most, taxes and similar stuff suck up any gravy.