Poll on teachers carrying guns


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gopguy
October 11, 2007, 05:10 PM
Hi gang, Need help with this poll. As you know we had another school shooting in Ohio. Lets vote to let teachers carry. Thanks Tim


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chris in va
October 17, 2007, 08:02 PM
Frankly from the public school system teachers I've come across over the years, I'd say it's a bad idea.

dogtown tom
October 17, 2007, 10:19 PM
chris in va: Frankly from the public school system teachers I've come across over the years, I'd say it's a bad idea.

So the Second Amendment should only protect some Americans, but not all?

What about postal workers? Convenience store clerks? Factory workers? Salesmen? What makes teachers less deserving of their rights than anyone else?

I would have no problem with any of the teachers that taught me (first grade through grad school) carrying a firearm. They helped make me the man I am today, and I am a teacher.

Teachers, nurses, retail clerks, mechanics, housewives, ministers, welfare moms, ALL OF US have the right to protect ourselves and our loved ones. Denying a class of people their Second Amendment Rights because of their occupation, income, political beliefs etc. is EXACTLY what the Brady Bunch is all about. They want to deny EVERYONE that right.

In my department I work with two men and fourteen women. SIX of the ladies have their Texas CHL. Any one of whom I would be happy to have covering my back. Unfortunately, Texas law and school district policy prohibit me from carrying on school property.

Now, if you want to see folks that should never be allowed around guns- go listen to a few of the conversations at a gun show.:D

humorouscyclone
October 21, 2007, 10:21 AM
While the rights issue may have some merit, the sheer logistics of that many guns in the schools make it a bad idea. It would be a security nightmare. Count me as a vote against.

Geno
October 21, 2007, 10:29 AM
humorouscyclone:

You come to a pro-RKBA website, create a nickname, and post as the first "words" here:

While the rights issue may have some merit, the sheer logistics of that many guns in the schools make it a bad idea. It would be a security nightmare. Count me as a vote against.

It makes you come across as being either: A) a troll; B) tremendously uninformed; c) just liking to hear the wind blow. You seriously need to do some research.

humorouscyclone
October 21, 2007, 10:56 AM
I am new and not understanding of site protocol. Perhaps I am a troll and tremendously uninformed. But I did spend 25 years in the classroom as a teacher. Forgive me for being new and weighing in on an issue that has been on my mind for quite awhile. I think it was Dwight Eisenhower who said "If everybody is thinking the same thing, then somebody is not thinking."

bensdad
October 21, 2007, 11:12 AM
I firmly believe that the only people who should be denied guns (and the right to carry them) are those who would deny others that same right. O.k. now, Chris in Va and Humorouscyclone, head over to the local LEO and turn in your firearms. I hereby deem both of you unworthy to posess firearms. Neither of you can be trusted.

You're either for us or against us. "Us" means everyone - not just an anointed few. :cuss:

dogtown tom
October 21, 2007, 11:49 AM
humorouscyclone: While the rights issue may have some merit, the sheer logistics of that many guns in the schools make it a bad idea. It would be a security nightmare. Count me as a vote against.

I too have spent the last twenty-five or so years in teaching & coaching.



I think it's been proven several times recently that school security is already a "nightmare". All K-10 campuses in my school district require a visitor to be "buzzed" in through a locked door. This basically keeps out lost door to door salesman. A big rock can open that door quicker than the receptionist.

Anyone who relies on rules, policies or laws to protect themselves forgets that the bad guys and evildoers don't follow the law. That's why they are the bad guys.

I can't begin to imagine the terror, horror and sense of panic experienced by those students and teachers in Columbine, Jonesboro, Va. Tech, etc. I can imagine how many of them might still be alive if ONE teacher or college student had been armed and been able to stop the threat.

sacp81170a
October 21, 2007, 12:08 PM
I am new and not understanding of site protocol. Perhaps I am a troll and tremendously uninformed. But I did spend 25 years in the classroom as a teacher. Forgive me for being new and weighing in on an issue that has been on my mind for quite awhile. I think it was Dwight Eisenhower who said "If everybody is thinking the same thing, then somebody is not thinking."

Welcome to THR. Lurk a bit and you'll find out whether or not this forum is your cup of tea. There are some folks around here with quite a bit of knowledge and we come from an astonishing variety of backgrounds. One thing that you will find true of this forum is that conjecture and opinion stated as fact are not well tolerated. That said, even then the discussion is generally civil.

I agree that teachers carrying in schools presents a security problem. I would also point out that carrying in the shopping mall, at the supermarket, or in any public place presents a security problem in that one must ensure the security of one's concealed firearm. In that regard, what difference is there between these places and a school, a much more controlled environment? What sort of security problem do you believe having qualified, trained adults carrying concealed firearms would pose? Would it mean that they would have to be constantly aware of their surroundings and their personal space?

I can understand that if you've never carried a concealed firearm that this would seem to be a daunting task, yet those of us who take on this responsibility for our own safety (and as a by-product, the safety of others) find that it quickly becomes natural. We are genetically wired to be on the alert for predators and other potential dangers, and as you shed the artificial complacency imposed by our dumbed-down society, you begin to wonder how other people can stand to live in a dream world of safety.

I believe that the individuals in government (governments are made up of individuals, after all) who want the population complacent and passive aren't necessarily acting out of malice, but because of the usual human impulse to avoid conflict. After all, would you rather try to control people who depend on you for their safety or those who take responsibility for their own self defense? The former is the old European idea of nobility in a new guise, the latter the attitude that drove our forefathers across the sea to the new land.

We give teachers the responsibility of molding and educating the minds of our children. If they are not mature enough to carry a firearm responsibly, how is it that we can trust them with the minds of our children?

LubeckTech
October 21, 2007, 12:12 PM
How exactly would it be a security nightmare?? With some extra training for those who carry it would in many systems enhance security! No blanket policy could cover all schools at this point in time as we have too many idiot liberals who are making the schools dangerous places by insisting we provide an education to those who not only don't want one, have no desire to learn and don't want to be there. Basically we as a society have decided that the property owners of our nation provide a "free" (there is nothing free about it) public school education for the nation's youth. This is a great concept but when you FORCE, under the color of law, SCUMBAGS to be there against their will a dangerous situation is inevitable. Thank the NEA in part for this. A public school education is a privlege and if a student won't come there to behave in a civil fashion and learn they have no business there - ABSOLUTELY NONE!!!!!!!! I called them scumbags not "misguided little darlings who need extra love and attention" because evil really does exist but the liberals of the NEA and other groups refuse to recognize this believing everyone is "precious" and worth while if we just love them enough. Mean while the truly deserving students take a back seat as the resources which could better them are wasted!!! Recieving a public school education is a privlige and we need to make it easy to throw out those who disrupt it.

Wayne G.
October 21, 2007, 12:45 PM
Um, back to the price of eggs in china....

The link for the poll did not work for me. I got an internet explorer error message.

tradja
October 21, 2007, 01:23 PM
The link for the poll did not work for me. I got an internet explorer error message.

Looks like the "www" is missing from the link above. Try:

http://www.ktrh.com/main.html

EDIT: Whoops, looks like the poll has long since changed to a new question.

M_Olson
October 21, 2007, 01:26 PM
The link for the poll did not work for me. I got an internet explorer error message.

theres a "." before the ktrh in the link that you have to take out. the poll is over though.

Reyn
October 22, 2007, 01:25 AM
The majority of the teachers i have talked to about this WOULD NOT carry if they could. How many carry when they are not teaching. Some viewed the liability outweighed the chance that they would be involved in a shooting.

Wynder
October 22, 2007, 09:40 AM
The majority of the teachers i have talked to about this WOULD NOT carry if they could. How many carry when they are not teaching. Some viewed the liability outweighed the chance that they would be involved in a shooting.

Definitely their choice, but it would be nice to be able to have that choice. As a staff and faculty member of a college, I'd be willing to concede that someone must have undergone training (similar to 10hr class required here in Delaware for the CHP) if the property owners would allow people the right to carry on campus.

Don Gwinn
October 22, 2007, 10:03 AM
I don't care if anyone else carries. I'd just like to have a choice.

TexasRifleman
October 22, 2007, 10:10 AM
While the rights issue may have some merit, the sheer logistics of that many guns in the schools make it a bad idea. It would be a security nightmare. Count me as a vote against.

While the rights issue MAY have some merit? LOL

How much VPC pay you to post over here?


The majority of the teachers i have talked to about this WOULD NOT carry if they

So again remember the idea of concealed carry is NOT that 100% WILL carry, it's that the badguy DOES NOT KNOW FOR SURE.

In "victim disarmament zones" it's a guarantee that no one will shoot back. If it was legal then the fear of the unknown kicks in, which is why CCW states have seen decreased crime in general.

rino451
October 22, 2007, 10:23 AM
I think many forget that a CCW in schools isn't necessarily (and probably not) to supplement SWAT or the like. It's generally to serve as the last chance to those boarded up or caught in a room. Certainly, evacuation of the danger area is the best idea when possibly (take a fire for instance). That being the case, I'm not sure what risks people are really concerned about when it comes to possessing a CCW in a school. No more than having one in a church I presume.

Looking back on VA, it appears that the policy of locking the place down doesn't make sense. Frankly, I'm not sure how it could have in the first place. Think of the scenarios: Deadly weapon or not. If not, then let everyone leave. If so, then, what? Board them up, concentrated, behind a door? If there's a fire, no one is expected to hunker down, so why in this case? If one were to assume bulletproof doors and walls, then MAYBE, I can see a lockdown making sense, but an enterprising person, would just set the whole place on fire, and we're back to square one. A lockdown really only baits the bad guy hopefully long enough until the cops can take care of things.

A static defense is rarely a good idea. It puts you at a severe disadvantage and allows the bad guy tremendous amounts of time to get inside your OODA loop. The existence of one gun can change the whole dynamic of a purely defensive situation. Without one, you really are at the mercy of the bad guys when hunkered down.

ZeSpectre
October 22, 2007, 10:31 AM
humorouscyclone: While the rights issue may have some merit, the sheer logistics of that many guns in the schools make it a bad idea. It would be a security nightmare. Count me as a vote against.

I simply cannot understand that line of thinking. Nobody (that I'm aware of) has advocated the forced arming of teachers. However if a teacher (as a citizen) already has a carry concealed permit then can someone explain to me why carrying concealed in a classroom is ANY different from anywhere else?

Acheron
October 22, 2007, 12:42 PM
Personally, I feel that allowing teachers to carry in the classroom could cause some problems, mainly legal ones. It would most likely never happen in our current society because too many people would be freaked out by guns in such close proximity to their children. The antis would be all over it in a heartbeat.

That being said, I am a firm believer in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and as such I feel that teachers should have the right to carry anywhere. When I was in high school (not too long ago) we had a 'school resource officer': basically a cop that wandered around the school all day. He carried his sidearm everywhere he went so why should the teacher have to leave his/hers at home?

Wynder
October 22, 2007, 12:45 PM
Personally, I feel that allowing teachers to carry in the classroom could cause some problems, mainly legal ones.

Out of curiosity -- what kind of legal problems?

Vern Humphrey
October 22, 2007, 12:51 PM
If I can't trust them with a gun, I sure as hell don't want to trust them with my children!

mljdeckard
October 22, 2007, 12:52 PM
I am reminded yet again that the climate I grew up in, I should never have taken for granted.

Many of my teachers were members of some flavor of military reserve. Most were veterans. Three taught hunter safety classes every fall. When we would take a rifle to school as a shop project, my high school principal would want us to take it into his office when we were done so he could inspect the work.

Guns in school? You think Klebold and Thomas would have been successful in MY high school?

If society has become so untrusting of its teachers to be able to protect themselves that they must be presumed incompetent, we are in bad shape indeed.

cpttango30
October 22, 2007, 12:58 PM
Really why are we even talking about it. 90% of teachers all feel the same way guns cause crime. So what would make them carry them to school.

I for one do not think it is a good idea. I think a better idea would be to hold kids accountable and their parents for the childs actions. Parents should also provide much more disapline in the home than is going on now. I see it every day the mom with three kids in the store they three kids are running wild screaming crying pissing and moaning because they want chocolate covered sugar bombs with caffine. Then mom says oh all right get them. I see kids picking their noses and flicking the boogers on to raw meat and the moms do nothing and most of the fathers are the same way. Ignore them and everything will be ok.

I have had my kids come home from school telling me they learned that Mexico is an island off the coast of africa. I am sorry the caliber of people teaching today is not as high as it once was.

I am not saying that they should be banned from carying if they feel the need.

I have a child with some problems (RAD ADD) she tends to tell lies to get people in trouble. In second grade she almost got a teachers aid fired. I am sure if thoese teacher were carrying guns they would have shot me upon entering that school because not one of them are smart enough to figure out that when a person is kicked down a flight of staires it leaves marks.

Back to my orginal point 90% of teachers are liberals and think guns are the cause to all the crime in the world. So more than likely they would not carry anyways.

It is not about the guns it is about the people.

I know I am going to piss some one off with this statement but Guns are not the only soluition out there.

Wynder
October 22, 2007, 01:04 PM
Really why are we even talking about it. 90% of teachers all feel the same way guns caus crime. So what would make them carry them to school.

Have a quote for that statistic? Most of the teachers I work with are X-Military and X-Police... Granted, it's a college, but I'm sure there are several people who would carry if given the possibility.

I think a better idea would be to hold kids accountable and their parents for the childs actions.

How does this prevent twenty deaths at the moment of a school shooting?


I am not saying that they should be banned from carying if they feel the need.

That's what this is about -- no one is talking about forcibly arming teachers. Rather, giving those who wish to a choice to defend themselves and, if need be, others.

I know I am going to piss some one off with this statement but Guns are not the only soluition out there.

Probably, yeah... If a school is confronted with a shooter, right now, all your kids have the option of doing is praying they they're not one of the ones that are being slowly and methodically killed like the ones in Columbine. All you can do is pray that at least one teacher near your child violated the law and is carrying a gun that can stop the shooter.

TexasRifleman
October 22, 2007, 01:14 PM
I know I am going to piss some one off with this statement but Guns are not the only soluition out there.

But they ARE a solution in some cases, and the deterrent factor has been shown to work.

So, one more trick in the bag won't hurt right?

Keeping law abiding teachers from having one more choice in a bad situation is wrong, regardless of how you spin it.

Speaking of spin... you do a good job here:

Back to my orginal point 90% of teachers are liberals and think guns are the cause to all the crime in the world. So more than likely they would not carry anyways.

No factual basis to that at all and, as we've said, that 10 percent might be enough. My wife is a teacher, has her Texas CHL, a really nice stainless Ladysmith, and a lock box in the car since she can't carry it into the school. She'd carry into class in a heartbeat if it wasn't illegal.

Doesn't matter that 90% won't carry, even if you could back up your statistics. If 10% did you'd have an awful lot of protection options available and THAT is the point. Options.

Why not admit that you have no legitimate argument and it just "feels wrong on a gut level". At least we could have honest debate then. Because that's all this is, a "my gut says it's a bad idea" kind of thing for most that are against it.

silverlance
October 22, 2007, 03:32 PM
im all for making ccw available to teachers. i am one.
but make DAMN SURE that the teachers you give ccw to aren't fricking idiots who lose their classroom keys every other day, consider the dean's office a personal classroom holding pen, and lesson planned for the last time eighteen years ago.

Wynder
October 22, 2007, 03:34 PM
but make DAMN SURE that the teachers you give ccw to aren't fricking idiots who lose their classroom keys every other day, consider the dean's office a personal classroom holding pen, and lesson planned for the last time eighteen years ago.

How do you do this? Who determines the test?

Dorryn
October 22, 2007, 04:19 PM
Really why are we even talking about it. 90% of teachers all feel the same way guns cause crime.

Are you KIDDING?

Im a dual-certified Social Studies/Special Ed. teacher. I would literally jump at the chance to concealed carry in the classroom, like I do everywhere else. I must be the 10%. By your logic, I must be defenseless because im in the minority. I must have missed that loose reading of the Constitution...

I have had my kids come home from school telling me they learned that Mexico is an island off the coast of africa. I am sorry the caliber of people teaching today is not as high as it once was.

Most parents dont know crap about their own children. They rarely enforce rules and believe the lies their children tell them. Teachers are MUCH MORE highly educated than they once were (NY requires a Masters' Degree) and yet some students still do poorly. The common factor? Parenting, and poor parenting especially. Just because some children dont learn, dont blame the teacher.

Please note: You yourself admitted your child is a compulsive liar.

I firmly believe that the only people who should be denied guns (and the right to carry them) are those who would deny others that same right. O.k. now, Chris in Va and Humorouscyclone, head over to the local LEO and turn in your firearms. I hereby deem both of you unworthy to posess firearms. Neither of you can be trusted.

I agree.

Apple a Day
October 22, 2007, 04:54 PM
You people make me want to puke, especially those talking out both sides of their colons. How can you say that you're for RKBA and then turn around and say:
*90% of teachers blame crime on guns. Really? Show me your data. While you're at it explain to me why that precludes teachers from exercising their second amendment rights.
*I had a bad experience and I am sure that some teacher would have shot me if they could have. NEWS FLASH: THEY COULD HAVE!!! Just not legally. Of course it's illegal for anyone to go around shooting people but that hasn't stopped anyone from doing it including at schools.

No one is talking about handing out guns to teachers. What percentage of citizens get a CCL? Now what percentage of teachers do you think are going to get a CCL? The same people who are ALREADY WALKING AROUND WITH A CCL that you walk around every day outside of school will be the SAME PEOPLE who may be carrying in the classroom. If you haven't been arguing against CCLs EVERYWHERE then WHY are you arguing against it in the classroom? THEY"RE THE SAME PEOPLE!!!

There's nothing keeping a teacher from walking into a school and shooting your children but the government is keeping a teacher from walking into a school and defending your children. Keep that in mind.

I'm going to quit before I really fly off the handle. Oh, and just to mention it, yes, I am a teacher who has a CCL.

Hokkmike
October 22, 2007, 05:26 PM
As a teacher of 33 years in a faculty of 32, I would say that MOST could handle ok. I suppose that it would be incumbent on the school system to train and accept volunteers from teachers to carry.

There are a few teachers I would not trust to drive me home.

Sorry, that's just the way it is.

I'll tell you what though, if an intruder walked through a school knowing many or most of the teachers were armed he/she would find him/herself in exactly the position that he intend for his victims - out gunned, with only recourse to hide or flee.

hmmmmmmmmmm......not a bad idea.

JeremySmith
October 22, 2007, 05:43 PM
I'd have absolutely zero problem with teachers being allowed to carry in school - how is it different than allowing anyone else to carry? Some of the schools around here even haved armed guards. By not allowing people to carry, any kid with idiot parents thinks they can walk right in, and take out as many innocents as possible before they take themselves out. Imagine how Columbine might have turned out id just a couple of teachers had weapons?

Nothing gets me riled up quicker than - this group of people can have guns, but this group of people can't.

rino451
October 22, 2007, 05:56 PM
I am not saying that they should be banned from carying if they feel the need.

The issue cpttango30, is that others believe just that...

ETA I'm not sure how it is today, but I'd bet back in the 80's when I was going to school, that several teachers (lil ol ladies in TX) carries a revo in their purses and more than one fella had one in their bag/briefcase...

Being an out of the closet gun guy at the lawfirm where I work, it's interesting to discover the number of people who carry illegally and many I meet are of the opinion that they've never needed the CHL in the past, so why bother with it now. The epitome of concealed means concealed, really.

bensdad
October 22, 2007, 06:00 PM
We're on the wrong track here. I believe that anyone incapable of owning and operating their own business should be denied the right to carry. Pizza deliverers carrying guns? Are you kidding me? Lawyers who lack the motivation to even start their own practice so just work for someone else? Get real!! None of these people should carry guns. They shouldn't even own them.

Let's not single out teachers as being "below the cut." We all know that anyone working in retail, save the owners, is lacking the mental and emotional capacity to carry safely.

I've known several cab drivers in my life. None of them ever had what it takes to carry a gun. Ban them.

Acheron, Cpttango30, ChrisinVa, Humorouscyclone, I'm beginning to see the light. Busboys, baggage handlers, nurses, doctors (all liberal!!), garbage collectors, photographers (sorry Oleg, turn in your guns) etc. etc. etc. None of them measure up. "Legal problems", "logistical nightmares", and other manner of chaos would ensue if these, and other, folks were allowed to carry. Ban them. Ban them all.

shooter429
October 22, 2007, 06:11 PM
Instead of "gun-free zones" we need to make schools "criminal free zones." All teachers (at least in our state) will have already had a background check done. I think we should simply add a qualification requirement and have policies in place to address logistics and emergency response protocols. Simple. Otherwise, we are going to continue to have gangs running our schools, and our children will continue to suffer.

Shooter429

sacp81170a
October 22, 2007, 09:15 PM
We give teachers the responsibility of molding and educating the minds of our children. If they are not mature enough to carry a firearm responsibly, how is it that we can trust them with the minds of our children?

If I can't trust them with a gun, I sure as hell don't want to trust them with my children!

I said it and Vern said it, but I think it deserves a more in-depth discussion. If trained professionals with 4-year degrees and a certificate are still deemed incapable of controlling themselves and a fairly simple (to operate, at least) tool, why would we want them controlling our kids? Can anyone answer me that very good question? As a group, teachers are dedicated, caring people or they wouldn't be doing what they do. If we can't trust them, who can we trust?

I believe this is exactly why the antis can't stand the idea of teachers carrying guns. If this practice becomes accepted, why people would begin to think of those not responsible enough to carry a firearm safely were in fact mentally and morally inferior to those who are. Couldn't have that, right?

tpaw
October 22, 2007, 09:28 PM
I think with proper screening, training and mandatory re-training every year, it's not a bad idea. They should be made to pass the same requirements as a police officer, and know when deady physical force is warranted. Although not officially sanctioned, I already know some teachers that do carry in school. Not to mention the students!..........

Aguila Blanca
October 22, 2007, 09:29 PM
I am new and not understanding of site protocol. Perhaps I am a troll and tremendously uninformed. But I did spend 25 years in the classroom as a teacher. Forgive me for being new and weighing in on an issue that has been on my mind for quite awhile. I think it was Dwight Eisenhower who said "If everybody is thinking the same thing, then somebody is not thinking."
I think the problem is with your statement that "the rights issue may have some merit ..." (emphasis added).

Just how much merit do you suggest the rights "issue" might have? A little? A lot? Sort of not too much but not too little? If you were a teacher for 25 years, what was your subject? Did the studies leading up to your teaching degree and certification by any chance include American history, and that pesky, mouldy old Constitution thing? You know, that dusty piece of paper with a Bill of Rights on it that says "The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."?

Would it be fair to say, then, that in your opinion the Constitution "might have some merit"?

RioShooter
October 22, 2007, 09:35 PM
Back to my orginal point 90% of teachers are liberals and think guns are the cause to all the crime in the world. So more than likely they would not carry anyways.

Please link to citation.

I can state for a fact that 3 out of 4 teachers who are next to my classroom have a Texas CHL. For some reason that 90% "fact" seems suspicious.

tpaw
October 22, 2007, 10:16 PM
Back to my orginal point 90% of teachers are liberals and think guns are the cause to all the crime in the world. So more than likely they would not carry anyways.

I know of many libeal teachers who would love to carry a gun in school. Let's face it, when it comes to protecting their own @ss, they would carry anthrax if they could............:eek:

Officers'Wife
October 22, 2007, 10:57 PM
Hi chris in va,

Frankly from the public school system teachers I've come across over the years, I'd say it's a bad idea.

If you don't feel you can trust these people with firearms WHY are you allowing your county to trust them with your kids?

Homeschooled Selena

pax
October 22, 2007, 11:28 PM
There's nothing keeping a teacher from walking into a school and shooting your children but the government is keeping a teacher from walking into a school and defending your children.

Very, very well-put.

Adding that to my quotes file, unless you object.

pax

woodstock72000@yahoo.com
October 22, 2007, 11:31 PM
How about we vote to allow parents to use their belts on these brats to straighten them out. Or, for the parents that don`t care or aren`t there anyway, how about we implement very,very strict punishments to the parents of the kids that commit these crimes. We MUST set an example to both America`s youth and America`s parents. But how can we punish the parents if the parents aren`t allowed to punish their kids?
Point is,this subject needs more attention because the "rabbit hole" goes deep. They try to blame it on the video games,T.V.,etc. but the truth of the matter is that this is OUR fault. Our society is making monsters every day by example of its self. The parents can`t whip the kids or their to messed up to care, the kids live in the most corrupt society ever and everyone`s pointing their finger at the person to their left while we watch 2 months of Anna Nicole on CNN, men marry men, world war creeps ever so much closer, and GD and nudity are on public TV. So give the teachers guns? Sure, that should fit the bill to a T. It`s OUR FAULT.





Go ahead Blast away

woodstock72000@yahoo.com
October 23, 2007, 12:02 AM
If I can't trust them with a gun, I sure as hell don't want to trust them with my children!
If you don't feel you can trust these people with firearms WHY are you allowing your county to trust them with your kids?
Why not admit that you have no legitimate argument and it just "feels wrong on a gut level". At least we could have honest debate then. Because that's all this is, a "my gut says it's a bad idea" kind of thing for most that are against it.
Why trust them? Do we have a choice? Think about that before you answer.
Wow, I can`t believe that this radical idea is even being discussed.
Gut? You know, I was going to post another comment, but this has just totally disgusted me. This , to me, is unbelievable.

Henry Bowman
October 23, 2007, 12:11 AM
Not sure of your point, Woodstock. The OP was about a teacher, who has reason to fear violence from a specific person while in her workplace, where nonteachers are already allowed to carry. This is not about child discipline.

Australian Shooter
October 23, 2007, 12:14 AM
Ever thought why psychos like Cho don't start a massacre in a police station, military base, gun shop or the local firing range? Why do they target schools? It's a simple answer that people here on this forum would know because its common sense. But the thing is, the antis lack all common sense.

cpttango30
October 23, 2007, 08:20 AM
Most parents don't know crap about their own children. They rarely enforce rules and believe the lies their children tell them. Teachers are MUCH MORE highly educated than they once were (NY requires a Masters' Degree) and yet some students still do poorly. The common factor? Parenting, and poor parenting especially. Just because some children don't learn, don't blame the teacher.

Just because you have a piece of paper does not mean you are smart.


The 90% I am basing that on my own school district. I apologize for that generalization.

The principal at my child school has two phds and should could not tell a bird form a dog.

I am very active in both of my child education. I have had to correct wrong information coming home more than a few times. I do not know if it is the teacher or the book but there was wrong information non the less.

In my area teachers and the PTO tried to stop a 7-11 from opening 2 miles away from a elementary school because if had an ABC lic. (Alcoholic Beverage Control). Yet, they were all for a porn shop opening not 1500 feet away form another elementary school.

I send my children to school to learn not for a teacher to change the world threw my child.


The teacher my daughter has this year is a NASCAR loving conservative older lady that has been teaching a lot longer than any of her other teachers. The classroom has rules and they are adhered to. My daughter has less trouble in that class.


So many today turn out little heathen monsters because they spend so much time working they feel they have to indulge their kids on everything. My daughter came home complaining because she can not take her cell phone to school with her. Now her cell phone is for when her and her brother fly to their mothers house. One girl in her class has a Samsung Blackjack that she brings to school everyday. Why does an 11 year old need a $300 cell phone? Because mommy and daddy want to buy her love.

Let me reformulate my view. I feel that schools should be a safe haven where children are allowed to learn in peace. I should not have to worry about sending my children to school in full combat gear with an AR-15 and 9mm pistol also.

I will also say that is a long ways off and there are bad people out there that just want to do harm for one reason or another. Those people will pray on the weak and the old. our children are weak because they are locked in a place with no protection. If a teacher wants to carry on campus and has obtained the paper work and can prove (CCW classes) they are competent (CCW) handling a firearm then by all means let them carry. Then again I am thought of as a crazy right wing kook. Because I say that if you harm a child you should be drug out in the woods thrown in a pit urinated on and shot in the head and chest at least three times.

Should we allow teachers to carry? YES

should we allow college students to carry on Campus? YES

dvcrsn
October 24, 2007, 07:48 PM
Last time I checked--criminals adore gun free zones--that way they have no opposition. Isreal has had a great deal of success with armed teachers and chaparones, and even if some terrorist starts shooting the place up, someone that has the tools to stop him is closer.

jhco50
October 25, 2007, 01:31 AM
I am not against teachers having guns, but I remember when my boy and older daughter were going to school in Jasper, Texas. They had corporal punishment that they abused and re-abused. There was a difference between a paddeling board and a plank with holes in it. One kid was "spanked" so hard with one of those boards that he was bleeding. Of course, the judge said the school was within their rights and were not questioned about it. I explained to the principles and teachers that if they raised the board to my kids, they would eat it.

Now give those same teachers guns and how long would it be before they shot one of the kids for fighting in the schoolyard.

Thernlund
October 25, 2007, 01:55 AM
K12 teachers, sure. Proper training and certification required, with annual re-qualification and renewal mandatory. The training regime would have to be designed by LE, not politicians. And the cert requirements should meet a fairly high standard.

College... anyone who can have a CCW can carry. Teachers and students, with the requirement that the weapon be concealed. That is, no open carry.

My two cents.


-T.

Owens
October 25, 2007, 07:41 AM
Just a "black & white" view of it, but if a teacher has CHL, they should be able to carry. No additional training, no additional special investigating.
Hey, it could help PROPERLY educate kids that guns are NOT evil.

StuckInMA
October 25, 2007, 09:18 AM
I don't think we should allow teachers to carry. I think we should allow everyone to carry by eliminating the "Gun Free Zone."

pax
October 25, 2007, 10:23 AM
I don't think we should allow teachers to carry. I think we should allow everyone to carry by eliminating the "Gun Free Zone."

Well, that's what Oregon did -- at least by state law. CCW holders are allowed to carry in Oregon schools.

You know who's not allowed to carry in Oregon schools? Teachers. At least, they'll lose their jobs if they do carry, in many or most districts.

That's what the whole Shirley Katz case is about. Local school board is bullying her by applying rules to teachers that are in conflict with state laws, and without statutory authority. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Meanwhile, some of the "pro-gun" people on this thread suggest that a teacher with a valid carry permit, in a state where everyone else is already allowed to carry on school grounds, should have to jump through additional hoops just to carry as a normal citizen would and does. I don't get that.

pax

Grizzly Adams
October 25, 2007, 10:46 AM
I agree that if you are trained in the proper use and handling of a weapon and are not prohibited for some reason from owning a firearm there should be no reason you can not carry one anywhere! As has been said here by others if I can't trust a teacher with a pistol I sure can't trust him/her with my child or grandchild!!

Buel

Aguila Blanca
October 25, 2007, 10:51 AM
As a teacher of 33 years in a faculty of 32, I would say that MOST could handle ok. I suppose that it would be incumbent on the school system to train and accept volunteers from teachers to carry.
Please show me the clause in the 2nd Amendment that discusses school systems asking for volunteers among teachers and then training them.

I never cease to be absolutely gobsmacked at the number of supposed pro-RKBA people who nonetheless don't seem to understand that "shall not be infringed" means "shall not be infringed." No matter how "reasonable" a restriction or a requirement may seem to one group, it will seem equally UNreasonable to another ... but the bottom line is, ANY restriction or requirement is an "infringement."

cambeul41
October 25, 2007, 11:29 AM
While I would prefer an unadorned Second Amendment, we still have to play the hands that we have been dealt. In most places that means that to legally carry one must have a license or permit. In Michigan, that is called a Concealed Pistol License.”

I think that I, a CPL carrying community college "professor,” should be allowed to carry in class as I can on campus. If the school offered extra training, I would be most happy to receive it. I can always use more training; and, although I do not think it should be required, its being available and even encouraged might do wonders toward calming the nerves of the tremulous.

If the school were to offer CPL training to those not already licensed but who wished to be, that would be splendid, too.

What is wrong with providing either basic or advanced training to those who wish to have it, to volunteers?

Wynder
October 25, 2007, 12:34 PM
I doubt any school would advocate someone carrying on their property, rather, I think the best we could hope for is that they'd simply allow it as an acknowledgment of someones rights.

I think a lot of the people suggesting that are suggesting teachers with their CCW be allowed to carry onto the property is more for the purposes of putting the directors/board members -- whomever is voting the decision -- in a position of ease by saying, "We're willing to make this trade-off in order to be given the permission to carry on your property."

I know that some local laws are different with regards to gun free school zones, but in a good deal of the US, that Federal law still stands.

Henry Bowman
October 25, 2007, 01:15 PM
Meanwhile, some of the "pro-gun" people on this thread suggest that a teacher with a valid carry permit, in a state where everyone else is already allowed to carry on school grounds, should have to jump through additional hoops just to carry as a normal citizen would and does. I don't get that.Nor do I, but it sure seems to be the "conventional wisdom" of many (whether "gun owners," "fence-sitters," or CCW licensees alike) who have no or would rather not take the time and effort to think through the big picture of rights and responsibilities.

hecate
October 25, 2007, 01:50 PM
It kinda goes further than even concealed carry in schools when you look at the results Jack Rumbaugh, Suarez International instructor, got when he set up some scenarios at The Warrior's Forge in Manassas, VA, after Virginia Tech.

From the article in "Concealed Carry Magazine:"

We will be running the drills through several variations in two strings. String one assumes that the classroom being attacked is the first classroom the shooter enters. The students and faculty only have a split second to realize they are under attack and to respond. String Two will assume that the classroom is being attacked after the first classroom has been attacked. There will be a short time to prepare a defense against the active shooter. Each string will consist of three or four iterations from these possibilities: armed faculty, armed student or students, unarmed active resistance, or a combination of these. To further enhance the realism, the person passing through the classroom door may be instructed not to shoot, but to simply sit down and join the class like any other student. We can only do so much to simulate the element of surprise. The best way to accomplish this is by introducing a random element of some sort into the scenario. Also, to keep the scenario as real as possible, I disqualified myself from participating as one of the players. I chose to act as the proctor and videographer in this instance. Having someone with my particular skill set in a college classroom would be highly unlikely. We want to replicate what would be most probable; a concealed carry permit holder with some basic level of training.

But guns aren't necessarily the only way to deal with school violence:

The fourth round was active unarmed resistance. I instructed my students to use "improvised weapons" that I provided. We used tennis balls to simulate anything that can be thrown, training knives, and padded kali sticks to act as contact weapons, and some were to rely only on empty hands. In reality, this situation would deteriorate quickly into a WWF Royal Rumble with anything that was not bolted to the walls or floor being thrown at the shooter. We specifically used items that would not permanently damage our shooter, but would definitely take his mind off of what he was planning to do. I went outside and made sure my shooter was ready. I took my place inside the room and started the scenario. The shooter entered and got two or three shots off before he was pummeled by tennis balls, book bags, and the padded sticks. He managed to continue the fight and took a continuous barrage of improvised weapons. He was driven to the ground and I called an end to the fight. We again gathered to debrief the scenario. The shooter had to duck and cover because of the incoming junk, which gave the students time to attack with other weapons. Several students took superficial wounds before and after the initial attack. None of the wounds would have been fatal. The shooter would have sustained a number of serious impact injuries, which may have rendered him unable to continue the fight. At the very least it caused the shooter to go to ground allowing the rest of the class to overpower him.

We have schools teaching children and young adults to cooperate in their own victimization. When one school in suburban Fort Worth tried to teach children and teachers to fight back against classroom invaders instead of cowering and waiting for death, public outcry and official disapproval forced them to drop the program.

I am the weapon. My pistol is just a tool.

Before we can get the professional sheep to allow guns, maybe they first have to get past mandatory hunker-down-and-die.

wellarmedlamb
October 25, 2007, 11:22 PM
I suggest we allow all staff, faculty, visiting parents and in the case of college, students, who have concealed carry permits to bring their handguns to school.

Carrying concealed has many advantages. Concealed guns cause no disturbance or apprehension because no one knows they are there. Concealed guns are always under the control of the adult with the permit; no inquisitive child will find one in a teacher's desk, in a locker, on a table.

Concealed guns make everyone safer. No one can tell who is armed and who is not. A person enterring the school with evil intent must consider every adult to be a possible problem to him.

I would never ask anyone to use deadly force to defend herself or others. I just ask that each of us be given that choice.

We have a right to life; a right to defend that life and the lives of those around us; we have a right to the means to do so.

Our schools are targets because they are vulnerable. We must change that.

MakAttak
October 26, 2007, 12:08 AM
My girlfriend has worked in a number of the local elementary schools.

I also know many of the teachers in other schools personally.

Those I know I would trust with her life, my own, or our future children's.

Many of those she works with, I would not trust with the life of my lizard.

As we cannot be assured our future progeny would have teachers like those we know, we have already decided our children will be homeschooled. I would not trust our children to a lottery of teachers.

However, given this low view of the public school system, I would STILL prefer teachers to be given the option of being armed. I may not trust them to care for my children, but I believe their own self-preservation instinct would serve to protect more than just themselves.

This is all beside the point that "the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." Few things we made so clear: people have a God-given right to protect themselves. Even beyond that, it is also better to allow them that right. (Funny how the right thing is also the best thing to do, too?)

karz10
October 26, 2007, 12:35 AM
I'm all for anyone w/ a permit to CCW on school grounds, I wish as a parent I could legally do so picking up and dropping of kids at school, and I'd feel better if those that chose to do so legally were able to in my absence.

I gotta tell ya though, it may not be without some pain in the process. Teachers are human too, and anyone choosing to take on this responsibility to CCW in a school has to know that they will be held to a higher standard. Any mistake they make will hurt them, the CCW in school cause, the CCW cause, and firearms rights in general.

We see threads all the time, especially in Strategies and Tactics, about all kinds of scenarios, and when the local / state laws allow the use of deadly force, and how those laws may be applied in individual cases. We hear all the time of citizens w/ a good shoot getting anal probes from the local DA, and questionable uses of deadly force. It's one thing to hear about a citizen on their own property shooting a would be robber, and how that state's law may apply, some may be justified to shoot for a property crime, some may still have to be in iminent danger of death in the process of being attacked before their state calls it a justified shoot.

Some schools are rough places, sometimes teachers get assaulted, but may or may not be in danger for their life. Can you imagine the backlash if a teacher makes a poor decision, even against someone that may have brought it on themselves, if I was a teacher that was going to CCW in school, I'd probably sign up for a prepaid legal plan or something, in case the SHTF. And going back to the scuffle situation, now there's a gun that could come into play.

Then there's the ND, it's one thing to hear about some guy having a ND in the local box store restroom, or an LEO having one and no one getting hurt, but can you imagine the 24 hr news machine getting ahold of a story where someone legally carrying in a school has a ND?

It wouldn't matter if any given situation was statistically insignificant compared to the rest of the general population, or the LEO community, it would only matter that something negative happened in a school related to a legal CCW.

Most schools don't allow teachers to punish students in hardly any way, let alone a physical way, especially public schools. If they won't let em have a paddle, wouldn't it be ironic if they were allowed to CCW. I think people (general public, politicians and school boards) will have to realize that there's a difference between school endorsed punishments carried out by teachers, and life and death decisions and the right of teachers or other authorized CWP holders to defend themselves and those around them, under state and federal law of course, and somehow ensure that the schools won't be held liable for actions of an individual. I think that's an unfortunate reality that some communities will have to overcome to get the schools to allow this.

Take Virgina for example, it's one of the states that actually allows CCWs in schools, but VT had a policy against it. So there's a couple issues here, the state law that needs to be written right if it's not already, and then getting the individual institutions and state schools to not write up harsh policies against it.

Dont' get me wrong, I'm not saying this responsibility or concern over the worst case scenario isn't worth the very important right to bear arms in more places, including schools. However, if and when this does become possible in more areas where it previously wasn't common practice, I pray that the people taking on this responsibility take it upon themselves to get additional training, above and beyond any local CCW requirements, to make the most of their newly reinstated rights, so to speak.

I now take the safety of myself and those around me seriously, and have taken it upon myself to get additional practice and training to ensure my proficiency in a SD situation. I'm sure I could do more, and will, but I take steps to get better, and in less than a year of handgun ownership and being a valid CWP holder, I'm confident in my skills, enough to know my limitations and to expect the unexpected and a little faith and situational awareness go a long way to avoid many negative situations.

I'm pretty sure any reaonably responsible adult w/ a minimal amount of training and a firearm could be a formidable opponent for a lone gunmen coming through the classroom door after shots have already been fired to alert someone to the potential threat. But I think someone should take it upon themselves to get some real training and practice to defend themselves in close distance, weapon retention, and accuracy, if they're gonna carry in a school day to day, and I'd hope that people in the industry would help those interested in getting the word out about affordable programs to help get them started down the right path...

Just thinking out loud.

Regards,

Karz

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