Does anyone know the US model 1917 military headspace spec?
Will a 1917 fail a Forster SAAMI FIELD gauge check and pass a Military
I can't find anything on-line except generalities. Any of you folks
know the numbers or of a site where I can find them?
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October 13, 2007, 12:59 PM
The 1917 Enfield was accepted as being safe for sale by the DCM if it closed on a 1.946" gage.
If it closed on that one, they would try a 1.947" and if it would not close, they were passed for sale.
If it did close on the 1.947" gage, they were rejected.
Be aware that the 1917 action is difficult to gage headspace on.
It has possibly the most powerful closing cams ever used on any bolt-action rifle.
Be sure you strip the bolt so the firing pin, spring and extractor are not clouding things.
Then use very light finger pressure on the bolt handle to try and close the bolt on the gage.
If ANY resistance is felt, that gage should be considered too tight for the action.
DO NOT USE ANY FORCE TO TRY AND CLOSE THE BOLT! as the cams will put a gage in the chamber, even if it is too tight!
In no case should they close on anybodys NO-GO gage.
First, RC thank you for previously steering me toward a glue
to repair my 03 stock. It worked great.
I appreciate you responding to this post as well, although it makes
no sense to me what-so-ever! I don't doubt you are telling me
what you've been told or read about this rifle. If I take into account
everything I've heard or read about this thing it barely qualifies
as a curiosity/wallhanger.
I have no idea who designed it, but apparently a notorious robber
baron managed to get half a million built in one year and attempted
to make a killing pawning them off on a government in panic mode.
That doesn't include the quarter million built for the British the previous
couple of years, Madis actually states "nobody cares." Now you tell
me it uses a GO/NO GO tolerance of .001", no FIELD spec. and It's
action is easily capable of destroying it's own chamber under
conditions that are normal for an '03. Thank the Lord they passed
quickly from the scene! No need to respond I've joined Madis'
ranks and don't care.
October 17, 2007, 12:14 PM
Give the old gal a little respect!
If it hadn't been for the 2.3 million 1917 Enfields we were able to build, with no prior notice we were entering WWI, in the three factories we had on line for British Pattern 14's, you would now:
#1 Have U-boat pins in the Norfolk Naval Base.
#2 Be eating Sourbratten & Borsch instead of Big Mac's.
#3 Speak German as your native language.
As for the strong closing cams, that was a good thing when you were standing in mud up to your kazoo in a trench in France.
If your rifle, with a stripped bolt, will not close on a 30-06 Field gage, just shoot the dang thing and stop worrying about it!
Way back in the 60's, Several friends and I did a lot of conversions on 1917's and turned them into sporters.
We found very few that would not take a field gauge with the bolt stripped.Never saw an Eddystone that did not take one.
Another well known fact at the time( not at the present) was the barrels were oversized. Left over P14 barrels were used on the 1917's. Remington even used them on their M30 Sporters after the war.
We were heavy into shooting cast bullets at the time and slugged every bore.
Never found one that was .308, they ran .311 +.
October 17, 2007, 05:06 PM
Most 1917 barrels have five groove rifling.
As there are no two lands or grooves opposite each other, what did you measure after you slugged them?
I do not remember the exact method we used at the time but I do remember we used a V-block when we did it.
We got the method from a article in one of the gunbooks. I think is was about slugging barrels with odd groves and lands for sizing cast bullets
Heck, I am old and that was 40 some odd years ago.
October 21, 2007, 07:28 AM
I was speaking of the US model 1917 in .30-06, not the P14.
Are those 303 specs you gave me? They're way under SAAMI
I have a lot of respect for the poor SOB's in those trenches.
Went to the WWI museum in KC this summer. Great experience!
That was the reason I started looking for one originally.
I just think someone could have done more of an '03 like job.
October 21, 2007, 02:49 PM
jacobhh said:Are those 303 specs you gave me? They're way under SAAMI
for .30-06.NO, those are headspace specs for the 1917 30-06 rifle.
The Pattern 14 .303 headspaces off the cartridge rim.
Min = .064"
Max = .067"
SAAMI specs for the 30-06 are:
Min = 1.940"
Standard = 1.942"
Max = 1.948"
30-06 chamber specs, from Hatchers Notebook:
L.E. Wilson 30-06 GO gage = 1.943", from my gunsmith tool chest:
Are you confusing SAAMI chamber dimensions for headspace measurements?
Headspace gages measure off of an imagenary datum line midway down the shoulder slope.
.30-06 headspace was originally measured to the juncture of shoulder and body instead of to the datum line in the slope of the shoulder. Actually the specification is to the intersection of perfect cones of shoulder and body diameters and there is no such place on a real chamber or cartridge, which makes gauge grinding complicated. So later bottlenecks were specified to a datum circle that falls about the middle of the shoulder.
Hatcher says that a GI headspace of 1.940" corresponds to a SAAMI headspace of 2.0479" because the same chamber is measured to different places.
October 21, 2007, 03:36 PM
Guess I haven't bothered to buy new 30-06 headspace gages recently.
I fear I've been left behind!
I'm still using my 40 year old gages!
I feel so old & outdated, just like my 30-06 headspace gages!