[wnycollector]

I was just reading the local paper and found out that the much maligned .38 special once again worked its magic.

It is a classic story...twice convicted drug felon, shoots twice convicted violent felon in fight with a charter arms .38 snub. Two quick shots and the "victim" dies at the scene and the shooter gets picked up 24 hrs later hiding under a pile of clothes in apartment.

I guess it goes to show that in the era of plastic, high cap semi-auto pistols in 9mm or 40 S&W, the 100+ year old .38 fired from a short barreled revolver can still stop fights!

[Shear_stress]

The .38 Special is much maligned?

[strangelittleman]

HAHAHA! Yep, I couldn't agree more! I carried a 4 inch S&W M65 .357 mag. loaded w/ .38spl+P for more than 12yrs on the job and never felt undergunned in over 15 various manhunts, before my agency went to the "plastic fantastic.40"
I would happily go to any hellhole anywhere in the world armed with a .38spl as my secondary weapon to a good rifle or shotgun. I've been happy to crawl into quite crawlspace, culvert, mtn.tunnel or cave in pursuit of a "mal hombre" armed w/ only my service revolver radio and a flashlight......I've been carrying an issue plastic uber gun for over a year now and I certainly will miss the old .38 wheelgun......happy hunting

[Starter52]

Yes, the .38 is much maligned. That's why a used S&W Model 15 (.38 Spl.) sells for about $200 and the same gun in .357 (Model 19) is $150 more.

It's why S&W has to market their J-frame revolvers as ".357" even though it's nutz to fire a magnum load out of those featherweights.

wny is right. The .38 Spl. get no respect . . . .

[wnycollector]

I hear what you are saying Starter, I was at a local gun show last month. I found an very good S&W model 10 for $175 and a SS 3" rossi "j" frame for $140.

[Jim March]

I own and love my vintage Charter Arms 38 Undercover. You need to pick out a good one as QC was at times spotty.

I do think you're best off picking the BEST possible ammo with a 38Snubbie. Bufallo Bore's new "standard pressure but with +P performance" line is a Godsend for those of us with weaker/older guns. In real +P, Buffalo Bore is tops, followed by some of the Cor-Bon loads, the Remington 158gr +P lead hollowpoint, the Speer 135gr Gold Dot +P (best load going for the S&W "Riboflavin" 12oz-and-under garbage) and the Winchester 130gr Supreme +P.

Those are the loads I'd trust my butt to in a 38snub, pretty much in that order except that the Buffalo Bore and Cor-Bon +P loads are reserved for the strongest 38 guns and I personally won't shoot 'em in my old Charter. Right now it's stoked with Speer 135s because I have 'em, but I hope to score BuffBore standard pressure (likely the 158gr flavor) soon.

[wnycollector]

+1 on Mr. March's reccomendations!

[Shear_stress]

Yes, the .38 is much maligned. That's why a used S&W Model 15 (.38 Spl.) sells for about $200 and the same gun in .357 (Model 19) is $150 more.

It's why S&W has to market their J-frame revolvers as ".357" even though it's nutz to fire a magnum load out of those featherweights.

Really? My understanding is that S&W sells more 642s (.38 Special only) than any other wheelgun. Someone out there must like the .38.

[Cosmoline]

I'd say it's underrated more than maligned. Most people view it as a nice old cartridge for grandma. But the secret is, grandma will flip you for real!

Really? My understanding is that S&W sells more 642s (.38 Special only) than any other wheelgun. Someone out there must like the .38.

Where did you hear that? I believe S&W still sells some new .38 specials to various police forces in the developing world, but I didn't know they were some hot seller on the civilian market. Certainly the old duty revolvers go for a song and dance compared with those doublestacked plastic things.

[Shear_stress]

Where did you hear that? I believe S&W still sells some new .38 specials to various police forces in the developing world, but I didn't know they were some hot seller on the civilian market. Certainly the old duty revolvers go for a song and dance compared with those doublestacked plastic things.

From a Smith & Wesson sales rep. They sell scads of 637s and 642s for the CCW and police market (where, according to S&W's SEC filing, they remain popular backup guns). It's one of the reasons that these are the cheapest revolvers they sell.

Here's a link to a Massad Ayoob article with that sales figure:

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-15710007_ITM

[WVleo]

Hi, I carry a colt detective special daily . Love the gun and the round ! ......WVleo ( formally from Lancaster, Ny )

[ldp4570]

A good quality .38 revolver with a couple of speedloaders, or speedstrips will always see you through the night. I carry sometimes a 2" S&W 64. I feel sorry for the scum that crosses my path.

[perpster]

I cut my handgun teeth on .38 Special. While bullet technology has improved the .38 Special's effectiveness over time (and the bullet has proved itself in actual use), human body technology has not improved. Therefore, if anything, the .38 Special is more effective now than ever. That being said, however, I still prefer a .357 Magnum PLATFORM so that I have the choice of .38 Special or .357 Magnum. But I would certainly feel adequately armed with a .38 Special platform and modern ammo for it (usually Speer GDHP SB).

[fiVe]

It is possible to find a spot on the web (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=138658) where .38 spcl and the 642 are very popular.

[nitesite]

From a 4" revolver all you really need is a 158-gr LSWC doing ±900 feet per second to put a very, very serious thump on something. You don't even need fancy-schmancy high-tech bullets.

That's why my wife's 686 and my Police Service Six have just such a load in them. Even my 4" Model 28 has loads more toward the power of a .38 Special +P power than a .357 Magnum.

I love the cartridge, and defend my home with it*!


*- even tho' I have 10mm, .45 and 9mm to choose from as well.

[Rexster]

Most .357 revolvers are actually loaded with .38 Specials, from what I have seen. People just want that "option" and so buy the .357 revolver while actually purchasing .38 ammo. The ammo selection as gun shops tells the tale; witness the variety of .38 and .38 +P, and the very small .357 selection.

[wnycollector]

I will admit to having my S&W 28-2 loaded with .38's:)

[armoredman]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/essentials.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/outdated.jpg

[rdrancher]

Jim March - I own and love my vintage Charter Arms 38 Undercover.

Me too. My mid-seventies Undercover takes turns with my 642-1 in pocket duty every day. I trust either one 100% loaded with Speer 135gr GDHP's.

rd

[TexasRifleman]

The .38 Special is much maligned?

Oh Lord yes. To read some of the forums and discussions you'd think the bullets just bounce off bad guys.....

I have a 386PD but I only carry .38 +p in it. One of my favorites.

Also picked up a cool little SAA in .357 and shoot .38 in it all the time.

And it's still cheap enough to shoot lots of, which these days is the BEST reason to own one.

[Cosmoline]

, the little J-Frame revolver is the company's single best-selling line

This must include those .357 J-frames as well as the .38 only frames. It's still really surprising too me, since they saw fit to cancel out the original Model 36/Ladysmith. If it's their best selling line, why not make more of the classic Model 36's? Oh well. Very little S&W does makes a lick of sense to me. I guess people want the airweight alloy jobs instead of real steel, but I've always found the extra ounces and better balance of the originals make for vastly nicer shooting wheelguns.

Interesting, article, though.

[perpster]

I guess people want the airweight alloy jobs instead of real steel, but I've always found the extra ounces and better balance of the originals make for vastly nicer shooting wheelguns.
Cosmo, no doubt the heavier the gun the nicer to shoot, but you can't shoot it if you don't have it. Having carried a M36 for decades as an off-duty/plainclothes gun I can attest to the huge difference carrying my 340Sc makes. It's just so much more comfortable to carry and much less of an obvious "pull" on pants without belts or in jacket/shirt pockets. Nothing at all wrong with the heavier guns; just so easy to carry a gun that weights less than its 5 rounds! And I make it a point to shoot the 340Sc with full power rounds whenever I go to the range in order to remind me of what it will be like should the need to use it arise.

[Cosmoline]

I've found them to be nothing short of nasty to shoot, whereas my old all steel DS is very smooth. I guess I don't try to pocket carry without some kind of support to hold up the pants.

[Phydeaux642]

I've found them to be nothing short of nasty to shoot

I actually find my 642 quite invigorating to shoot. I do not, however, have any interest in shooting the scandium frame models. I carry mine with Federal Hydra Shok 110gr JHPs and don't feel that I am undergunned at all. Maybe I don't know any better and am living in ignorant bliss.:D

_____________________

"Phydeaux, bad dog....no biscuit!"

[perpster]

Well, the 340Sc is not pleasant to shoot with full power loads, but it is shootable. I also like the way it doubles as a life preserver if I fall in the water.

[mavracer]

I put a set of crimson trace lg405s on my 442 they have an air pocket on the back that soaked up a lot of the recoil it made +Ps very pleasent.enough that I sold my 442 and bought a 340M&P with the same grips.With remmie .357 golden sabers it's about as bad as the 442 was with the stock boot grips.
I'm not going to do any 1000 round classes with it,but I shot 90 rounds through it wednesday 50 light and 40 GSs no problem.

[Jeff F]

It's what most of the ranchers around here use to put down steers when they go to butcher them.

[Jake H]

It is pretty obvious that the .357 Magnum cartridge is way too long for modern smokeless powder. When I reload my own bullets with HS-6 and a 158 grain bullet there is about a 1/2" space of air in the case. The .38 Special is better with its 1/8" shorter case, but still not perfect. I do understand why they lengthened the .38 Special to what the .357 Mag is, but I also think that you should know the difference between a .38 Spc and a .357 Mag before you can buy a firearm. My ideal revolver/cartridge would be something the size of a S&W 586 chambered for a rimmed cartridge a touch shorter than the .38 Spc.

[Jim March]

It is pretty obvious that the .357 Magnum cartridge is way too long for modern smokeless powder.

Except that the large case volume lowers the peak pressure for the bullet energy delivered. The case capacity is the main reason we can get more bullet energy out of the 357 than, say, the 9mm.

[Diggers]

Heh heh. :rolleyes:

I shot a 360 PD last weekend, with .38 specials.

In fact I am trying to figure out if the Fiocchi 130 grain going at 950 fps (what I was shooting) is in fact a +P rating....but I alas I still don't know. :cool:

It did kick a bit but not real bad. .357 would be nutzo in that little gun though.:what:

About the original topic.... YES the .38 special gets a LOAD of crap in some forums. Most often its talked about as marginal at best and many flat out state that you should not trust you life to it.

Then again some aren't happy with anything less than a .44 mag.

[Shear_stress]

About the original topic.... YES the .38 special gets a LOAD of crap in some forums. Most often its talked about as marginal at best and many flat out state that you should not trust you life to it.

I guess my point is that the .38 Special might take a lot of guff from a few internet commandos but, when it comes down to brass tacks, revolvers chambered in this round are still S&W's best selling wheel guns.

Cosmoline, the whole quote from that article is that the 642 is S&W's best selling gun from their best selling line.

[BigG]

The next chorus of that song goes "Yeah, but my thutty two is pretty good, also." yada yada yada [we need to get that puke icon back for these occasions] ;)

[Jake H]

Jim you bring up a good point. Yes I agree that a smaller volume case will produce a higher peak pressure for the same amount of gunpowder (thats basic physics).

The pressure curve varies between different powders (mainly based on burn-rate I believe). A faster burning pistol powder will generally have a steep pressure curve; that is they reach peak pressure fairly quickly. In a handgun, with its relatively short barrel, I prefer to use a medium-to-fast burning powder such as HS-6 to insure that most all of the powder is burned before the bullet exits the barrel. Also, I have found that higher pressure burns powder more cleanly and more thoroughly. Efficiency is what I look for. A revolver with the cylinder mass of say a S&W 586 could easily handle the higher chamber pressure of a .38 Special loaded to .357 levels.

I prefer to have 100% loading density in a cartridge when used with the powder and bullet weight I prefer. It is simply speculation, but I also believe that a large air-column inside a cartridge case is adverse to accuracy.

So you might say well why don't you just buy a .357 Magnum revolver and then load .38 Special cases to .357 levels. My qualm with that is I can't stand having the bullet travel so far in the cylinder to reach the forcing cone (when using .38 Special cases). That can't be good for the forcing cone nor accuracy.

Maybe I will do some velocity testing with my S&W 686 and .357 Magnum/.38 Special cases when I get the chance.

Regards,
Jake H

[Mr. Designer]

I have a S&W Model 360Sc and do shoot full .357s out of it. Its not something I want to shoot all day but it is almost always with me because of how easy it is to carry. I also put on a Crimson Trace Defender Laser Grip to help with shot placement. If I should need to use it (God forbid), I doubt I will be thinking about the kick.

[volgunner]

Anyone thought about starting a dedicated .38 Special thread?

Regards
Russell

[Raspu10]

OMG i want a S&W 642... Those Lil Sexy Beasts ROCK!!!

[crebralfix]

Jim Cirillo didn't care for it and he used it to kill people. Just something to think about.

[1man]

Jim Cirillo is a Firearm Specialist & Educator(he knows there are better options available), he used what he was issued/authorized by his Department Policy!

I carry a S&W 640(38 special) when I'm not armed. When I'm armed, I carry ? and my S&W 640!

[campbell]

I prefer to have 100% loading density in a cartridge when used with the powder and bullet weight I prefer. It is simply speculation, but I also believe that a large air-column inside a cartridge case is adverse to accuracy.

.38 Special loads in .357 cases using low charge weights of fast powders like Titegroup and Bullseye is a common practice. Accuracy is not a problem.

So you might say well why don't you just buy a .357 Magnum revolver and then load .38 Special cases to .357 levels. My qualm with that is I can't stand having the bullet travel so far in the cylinder to reach the forcing cone (when using .38 Special cases). That can't be good for the forcing cone nor accuracy.

With .38 Specials, your forcing cone is likely going to outlive you.

[welldoya]

I was told by the manager of a gun shop that the 642 is their shop's as well as Smith and Wesson's biggest seller.
When I first got mine , I was shooting WWB +P self-defense loads and it wasn't all that bad, not particularly fun but not bad. I switched over to the non-+P WWB JHP and it's a ball to shoot now. And I am much more accurate with the non +Ps.

[Jake H]

campbell notice how I said .38 Special cases loaded to .357 Magnum levels. The bullet would have an extra 1/8" to accelerate before it hits the forcing cone.

I haven't tested the accuracy of .38's out of a .357 revolver myself, but will when I get the chance. I would think the least amount of travel from inside the cylinder to the forcing cone would give best accuracy. Much the same as when reloading for rifles, which I have much more experience with. I find the best accuracy when the bullets are loaded touching or into the lands.

[mashaffer]

I prefer to have 100% loading density in a cartridge when used with the powder and bullet weight I prefer. It is simply speculation, but I also believe that a large air-column inside a cartridge case is adverse to accuracy.

No problem just load triple 7 or Goex. ;)

But seriously, couldn't you just develop your load with the bullet seated deeper?

mike

[Majic]

It is simply speculation, but I also believe that a large air-column inside a cartridge case is adverse to accuracy.
Well I guess you have never heard of the age old load for accuracy in the .38 spl consisting of 2.8 gr of Bullseye behind a 148 gr WC.

[campbell]

Much the same as when reloading for rifles, which I have much more experience with. I find the best accuracy when the bullets are loaded touching or into the lands.

I suspect you'll find that kind of fine tuning doesn't yield the same returns with a revolver like it does with a bench rest rifle. None of us are going to be doing 1/2 MOA with DA revo shooting.

[Jake H]

Mike,
I wouldn't seat the bullet deeper for two reasons. The crimp groove would be inside the case, and seating the bullet deeper moves the bullet even farther away from the forcing cone.

Majic,
No I never heard of that load. I have never shot lead bullets through any of my firearms except maybe a .22 LR. Don't have anything against them I just prefer jacketed bullets. And I know for a fact there is no "magic load" for all firearms.

My opinions seem to go against the grain of most in this forum and I know exactly why. Most of my experience with firearms involves Centerfire Benchrest competition at 100 & 200 yards. Its about the most anally retentive sport there is.

To give you an idea of the accuracy achieved, the smallest 100 yard group ever fired in competition measures .009". That means that all 5 bullets struck the paper within .009" of each other, at 100 yards. I've seen a picture of the group and its amazing. The current 5 shot, 200 yard world record is about .080" I believe. The 6PPC chambers are machined to tolerances measured in the .0001". The 68 grain hollow-point jacketed bullets are hand made by a few custom makers. Short range benchrest rifles are simply the most accurate firearms in the world.

What I've learned in that discipline I apply to generally all other firearms I own, including revolvers. Thats where all my opinions come from. I'm accustomed to the 6PPC cartridge with its 100% loading density, outstanding efficiency, and remarkable accuracy.

Through BR I learned how much of a difference the tiny details make. I've seen a .002" change in seating depth take my BR rifle from shooting .300" patterns to .150" bugholes. If you are at all interested go to this forum:
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/

So when I see a half inch space of air inside a .357 cartridge it just goes against what I see as optimal. The same thing applies to shooting a .38 special out of a .357 magnum revolver. The bullet has to travel about a half inch before it even enters the barrel! Still, there's just something about revolvers...

Anyways, there's nothing more fun for me than messing with all this technical stuff. I'm done ranting for the night.

[Jake H]

campbell,

I just now read your latest post (I was busy typing my saga).

That is exactly the idea that I've never believed in. You can only shoot as well as your gun, so why not squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of it?

And FYI, a good BR rifle will consistently shoot about .125 MOA. By consistently I mean five, five shot groups averaged together (an aggregate).

Regards,
Jake

[Cosmoline]

Jake H: There are quite a few powder/bullet combinations that fill up the special's case more than enough. I think the "air space" concern is much more of a factor with .45 Colts, .45-70's and the like loaded with a wee charge o' smokeless. In such cases the air space isn't so much the problem as the spacing of the powder. It creates variabilities if it's scattered around inside the case.

If you're sticking to jacketed bullets in an older .38 Special, you may well run into problems. They were generally calibrated for 158 grain lead slugs and do best with those or with soft lead wadcutters. You have to remember that the velocity is vastly less than a benchrest rifle and at lower speads soft lead can often grab the rifling better than a jacket, esp. if it's old style rifling developed for lead slugs.

Beyond this, the wheelguns have many variables that you could spend ages trying to track down and eliminate, from the b/c gap to shake in the cylinder to the way the pin hits the primer. But they're good enough for what they do. If you want to squeeze maximum accuracy out of a handgun a thompson center will give you much better results for your trouble. Have you tried one?

[Jake H]

Cosmoline, good post.

Yes I do know that there are different powder combinations that will fill up a .357 mag case, like H110 and a 158 grainer. But like I said earlier I like to use medium-to-faster burning pistol powders like HS-6 since they, in my experience, burn more thoroughly and with less muzzle blast/flash.

The only revolver I currently own is a S&W 686 pre-dash w/ 6" barrel, and I only use 158 jacketed bullets. I am keeping an eye out for a .38 Special though, probably a model 15 or possibly a Diamondback. I will take heed of what you said about the lead bullets. Lead bullets do not foul very much at lower velocities right?

Your last paragraph is right on. There are tons of variables to play with in a revolver. I understand that 3" groups at 25 yards is probably good enough for personal defense. But I don't use my revolver for personal defense so I just tinker with whatever I can to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of it. I've never shot a thompson center. I'll just grab a rifle for anything that's out of my revolver's range.

Jake