[stormy]

I have an 1858 "Old Army" that I purchased from Cabela's, made by F. Llipietta, Italy, at least 15 years ago. I have not shot it in over a decade, and although it appears in very excellent condition - not even a tiny spec of corrosion - it is "frozen". I cleaned it very thoroughly after each use (which was only a few times) with a special cleaner made for these "black powder" revolvers. I used Pyrodex P powder. I always lightly oiled it afterward. It has been stored in its original box in a dry location. It was NOT wrapped in plastic.

The hammer comes back a little and I can remove the loading lever, but the cylinder and cylinder pin are "frozen". I tried WD40, "Breakfree", and others for days at a time - nothing.

DO you have any suggestions on a solvent or penetrant to try, or do I need to take it apart? Of course, I can't remove the cylinder and cylinder pin, the typical start for disassembly.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated
stormy

[dwave]

I had a cylinder pin that was frozen on an old 1858 that was in a barn for over a year and rusted really badly. I got it to unfreeze by soaking it in Diesel fuel for 24 hours and then using a hammer and tapped the pin out. Just remember to take the grips off!

[KevininPa]

I've heard of putting a gun in a bucket of kerosene to unseize parts. It might be old oil that " varnished ". The kero breaks down the old oil and actually lubricates some of the finer parts. Try this and you should be fine. A guy down the road from me uses gasoline but I don't suggest that. Too easy for an explosion from fumes.
Once everything is free with the kero ( Hopefully! ), you will know how to keep it free: Shoot it man!; Shoot it! It's punishing you for not paying attention to it.

[Old Fuff]

stormy:

I got your e-mail, and I will answer it, but I've been tied up with other business today.

Anyway, when plan "A" doesn't work, go to plan "B".... :)

Remove the rammer assembly to get it out of the way, and then proceed with the regular disassembly instructions - except the part about removing the cylinder. Start by removing the screw in front of the trigger guard (be sure you have the right size screwdrivers or you will ruin the screw slots) and then the trigger guard by rotating it downward and backwards.

Then remove the trigger & bolt spring screw, followed by the spring.

Take out the cylinder bolt screw, and at this point you should be able to wiggle the cylinder bolt out.

Try and see if you can now rotate the cylinder counter-clockwise. If so, good.

Continue by removing the trigger screw, trigger, and mainspring tension screw in the bottom/front of the handle. Then remove the mainspring.

Unscrew the hammer screw and drop the hammer down far enough to remove the hand screw. Then pull the hand out of the frame. Finely, remove the hammer.

With the hammer out of the frame you can see the back end of the base (cylinder) pin in the frame's hammer slot. Give it a shot of oil, and let it sit for a bit.

Then take a brass or aluminum punch, and drive the pin forward by driving it from the back. By using a softer metal punch you won't ding up the pin.

As soon as you drive the cylinder pin foreward far enough you will be able to remove the cylinder. Then if it's necessary drive the pin the rest of the way.

Lightly polish the cylinder pin untill it will slide back through both the cylinder and frame. Then reassemble the revolver per the posted instructions.

During long-time storage, remove the cylinder from the frame and keep it with the gun. Rather then using oil, lightly coat the parts and exterior surfaces with RIG grease (available from Brownells at www.brownells.com).

[stormy]

THANKS VERY MUCH
to OLD FUFF for the detailed instructions, the use of RIG, and your obvious expertise with cap & ball
and also to DWAVE
and Kevin in PA
I am saving all this info for my file on cap & ball, and these instructions will certainly do the trick. It was hard for me to see that the gun looks so clean and still can be "frozen"?

Kevin is certainly correct - shoot it more
I love to shoot percussion
I am originally from Pittsburgh and miss the whitetail hunting in the wooded hills - I had my own 125 yd target range when I lived in Illinois so was able to shoot and hunt a great deal.
I spent too much time working here in Arizona as a consultant, and involved with wildlife conservation.
THANKS again
stormy

[Bad Flynch]

This particular corrosion problem is one of the blessings of using Pyrodex or 777 powder--that is, one of the perchlorate-based powders.

When regular black powder burns, the Potassium Nitrate (Salt Petre) gives up the nitrate and leaves behind Potassium Carbonate. Potassium Carbonate is a relatively strong alkali which is akin to Washing Soda (Sodium Carbonate). Potassium Carbonate is very water soluble and can be neutralized with a little vinegar added to the wash water. Commercial black powder solvents usually have enough water to remove the Potassium Carbonate and what little might be left really doesn't cause much trouble, as it isnt very hygroscopic.

However, the powders based on Potassium Perchlorate are different. When Potassium Perchlorate gives up its oxygen to the combustion reaction, it leaves behind Potassium Chloride. Potassium Chloride is akin to table salt (Sodium Chloride). Sodium Chloride is a neutral salt and is readily water soluble. This is the same residue as left behind by the corrosive priming of the military, like the old FA70 primers, and corrosive commercial priming.

Potassium Chloride, however, is much harder to remove effectively. It penetrates all sorts of crack and the pores of the steel. While the same might be said of Potassium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride is hygroscopic a promotes rust even under an oil film. Many commercial BP cleaners are not up to the job of cleaning guns fired with some BP substitutes. BTW, this is the same old problem as the corrosive priming of military ammo and the military had to devise a special bore cleaner to save the Springfields and the Garands from rust-death.

There is really no effective way to clean after Pyrodex or 777 except to use large volumes of water and hot water is better. Soap will help remove lots of the other crud and aid in getting stuff out of cracks and pores, as it is a wetting agent.

Do not add Hydrogen Peroxide, especially for cleaning a gun fired with a Perchlorate-based powder. Peroxide supplies water and oxygen, both of which are excellent contributors to the rusting reaction.

There is a rumor that adding Ammonia is also doubly deadly when cleaning a gun fired with a Perchlorate-based powder. However, the reaction calls for the formation of Sal Ammoniac (Ammonium Chloride) and the conditions for that to happen are suspect, so I'm not buying it. All of the observed agressive rusting can be accounted for by the Potassium Chloride left behind after firing Perchlorate-based priming or powders.

After you get your revolver apart and clean out all of the rust, reclean the thing with hot water and then spray it with a water displacing oil. After the thing is dry and all traces of moisture are gone, reassemble and cover all parts with a good, long-lasting protectant oil that is compatible with black powder fouling.

The use of vinegar is specific to real black powder and serves no purpose cleaning up after Pyrodex or 777.

BTW, Pyrodex is otherwise an excellent powder; one need not quit using it just because of a corrosion problem. All one really needs to do is to use hot caps and clean with water. I use BP exclusively.

[Misfire99]

All the posts on this thread are very good. But I would like to add that I don't think it's rust that is holding the pin in place. I had a similar problem with one of my 1858s. I was able to tap out the cylinder pin but there was no rust just some "gunk" for lack of a better term. If I was you I would soak it in a bucket of water over night. Hot water would even be a good thing. I bet in the morning you can tap out the pin without taking it all apart. But taking it all apart after getting the pin out and clean and oil is recommended.

[unspellable]

I bought a Remington replica (w target sights) that had not been cleaned after the last use and was full of crap, crud, & corruption. (priced accordingly) Oddly enough, it cleaned up quite nicely so I have a decent shooter.

[Jim K]

A couple of ideas - with all the parts out, throw the gun in a pot of water and boil the heck out of it. Boiling water can get into places no penetrant seems able to and will dissolve gunk that most penetrants won't.

I know I have recommended G96 Gun Treatment for frozen guns, and still do, but I think this is a case for boiling water. (I know the gun is Italian, but I don't recommend boiling spaghetti in the pot at the same time.)

Another possibility, after using a penetrant, is to put leather or brass jaws in a vise, clamp it on the cylinder and then use the butt as leverage to turn the gun. That will free up about 98% of those frozen base pins.

Jim

[Old Dragoon]

.........and ruin the inside bore of the cylinder or the pin!

Soak it in Diesel fuel for a couple days with the grips off then tap out the cylinder pin. The diesel will not hurt the gun if you "happen" to forget it for a day or two, in water you are rusted up.

[Misfire99]

Soak it in Diesel fuel for a couple days with the grips off then tap out the cylinder pin. The diesel will not hurt the gun if you "happen" to forget it for a day or two, in water you are rusted up.

You have to be pretty damn forgetful to do that. Is that a problem for you OLD dragoon?

[Old Dragoon]

Misfire99,

Stranger things done happened!

Nope! Not me. I don't let mine get rusted up or rusted tight.

Just know human nature. Ya get busy doing something else and then 3 weeks later you remember that, "Oh Yeah, i was soaking a pistol overnight". If this has never happened to you, just wait, it will sooner or later. Especially if you have a life.

[Misfire99]

Well I've been shot at and missed a hole bunch and **** at and hit some. Fought my way out of cancer recently and a few hairy battles when I was younger. Now I'm well into my fifties with two young kids and a family. I can assure you I have a life but I would never forget that my gun is in a bucket of water ( you'd have to be brain dead, it's like forgetting to wipe your butt after you poop ). Maybe it has to do with my priorities. If I ever get to the point that I would forget my gun I will shoot myself with it when I find it because I have forgotten why I am alive.

[dwave]

Things happen that could cause you to forget your gun, like your mom or dad getting hurt or killed (just an example). What about not forgetting but not being able to because you got in a car wreck. I prefer using Diesel fuel, at least you don't have to worry about it if you can't get to it.

[Old Dragoon]

My point exactly.

[Misfire99]

I worked in a health clinic many years ago. We had a patient that was very emaciated from his disease. He always would worry about being on the table during an earth quake. You know it could happen. So I would hold is hand so he felt safe but I thought his disease had caused him to just be afraid of nothing because he had no powder in his life at all. I suspect this is going on here. Don't live your life in fear kids. You don't have to always run your life in fear of your mommy getting in a car accident. This is just paranoia. As I'm writing this I'm just shaking my head thinking you can't possible be living in the fear of your mommy getting hit by a car, are you???? Something is wrong with you guys. Get some help willya. Go to a therapist or something cause you just aren't living in reality. You are living in fear!! snap out of it.




And by the way. What are you supposed to do with the bucket of diesel fuel after you take you gun out of it????

[dwave]

I don't know what your deal is, but I am not living in fear. Don't come here with an attitude just because you don't agree please. Things happen, thats my point, I don't run around with body armor on because of fear. Don't twist my words, and don't assume that I am a kid fearing for my life, or my mothers, as I said it was an example of something that could happen.

So here is the best thing to do here, you keep your water, I'll keep my fuel. Stop insulting people and insinuating they are cowards living in fear. This is a forum for help and ideas. Keep it that way please.

And as for what you can use the diesel fuel for, start a fire when your wood is wet.

[Misfire99]

I don't have an attitude and I'm not insulting you or anybody else. I think you should look at what you wrote from a different perspective. It sure looks like unreasonable fear to me. Not washing your gun in water because your mom or dad might get hurt or killed, or maybe you get in a car wreck sounds reasonable to you??? Is it even a thing that can reasonably happen?? If it does sound reasonable to you you have a problem. Hopefully those are once in a lifetime events, but I have been in two car wrecks neither was my fault. But I have never been in a car wreck while sleeping with my gun in water. And as for this being a place to help others that was what I was doing. No attitude no putting you down or anything like that just you really don't have to be that afraid. You can get help to not be if you are, please notice I said IF you are. And being afraid is not the same thing as being a coward. I suspect this is also part of why you are upset at me. You think I am implying that you are a coward. NOT SO.

Maybe my words standing by themselves without me there to fill out the situation is part of the problem. Remember what I wrote about the guy that was afraid of an earth quake. I knew that was an unreasonable fear but I still held is hand so he wouldn't be afraid. I'm on a computer I can't reach out and hold yours. If I was with you I would go with you for help so you could get it more easily. But I'm not there. I am sure that if you and I were sitting face to face so you could see my body language and how I presented myself you wouldn't feel like you do. I could see us laughing about it if we were together. This is one of the real problems with this type of communication. Humans use language to communicate but there is a hole bunch of communicating that is done with body language. Through a smile or a touch of the hand. Here we are disembodied voices. The same kind of thing happens with road rage. People don't see a car as a person. So when someone in a car does something that they don't like they do things that they wouldn't do if they were face to face.

It's obvious that I upset you so I will say I'm sorry. Hopefully you and I can meet in person and find out what kind of people we really are. Peace be with you.

[dwave]

You are probably right with the language, but it did seem to me that you twisted what I said. For what I said to I will say sorry. It did anger me a bit implying that I lived in fear when my point was that sometimes things happen beyond our control sometimes. I don't expect anything like that to happen and I don't think about it every time I get in a car. Trust me if I did, I wouldn't have drove a tractor-trailer!

Anyways like I said, I am sorry too.

[DixieTexian]

Oh, looky. They made up. Now they can have a snuggle party!:neener:

[Old Dragoon]

Get some help?
I'm sorry, both my parents are passed over some long time ago. I don't live in fear either, If I did I'd never drive on the freeway system here in Los Angeles County(7 Death in two accidents) in 4 days on or just off the 14 that passes through my little town. That tunnel fire was on the soth end of the 15 where it hits the 5, and the other deaths were in a sand storm north of Lancaster,Ca. on the 14.

I don't use Water to soak anything other than clothes or dishes in, especially firearms.
BP guns? Yes I wash them in HOT soapy water then DRY them and Re-assemble them and OIL them up with Olive Oil and Bore Butter.
I have much more respect for my firearms than to drop them in a pail of water.

I'm sorry I offended you too. The man wanted a straight answer to a question he had. I answered the way I would approach the problem. Folks approach problems in different ways. Maybe not wrong, just different.

As to what to do with a pail of Diesel fuel, well soak more parts and stuck guns. or strain it and put it in the diesel tractor in the barn. But whatever you do, don't pour it down a rat hole, the eco terrorists will come after you for that.

[sundance44s]

Well............Crap I forgot what I was going to say !! < ( bad case of sometimers )

[Jim K]

Good heavens, what have I done? I didn't mean to start a p****** contest with name-calling and hostility.

I didn't say to soak a gun overnight or for a month in water, I said BOIL it. That means bring to a boil for a few minutes and then let it heat dry. I couldn't have imagined that anyone would take that to mean immersing the gun in a bucket of water for weeks.

Boiling water penetrates well and kills rust very effectively, while some oils and rust removers just cover the surface, leaving the rust active beneath them. And boiling water will get into joints that are hard to reach. Once removed from the water, the gun will heat dry without rusting or corroding, but I always use penetrant and oil immediately.

Jim

[Misfire99]

I think the pressure of life just gets to us sometimes, I know it does me, and we are not as nice as we would normally be. I had cancer three years ago and the chemo gave me neuropathy. That means I am in constant pain. It's not the kind of damage like a back problem where you can find some position and it goes away for a time. In my case the nerves themself are damaged so there is no getting away from it. I take morphine, and hate the stuff, but I'm sure that I get a little scratchy some times, yea right some times. I am now, after three years, able to get back into shooting. My hands used to shake so much I had to eat with a spoon and bib. I am getting better I don't need the bib anymore. I'm fifty one with two kids eight and twelve, I got a late start in the kids department. I'm sure I will piss someone else off in the futrue and hopefully they will see the big picture and forgive me.

[sundance44s]

Misfire99... I truely understand about the constant pain and little morphine pills ...I`ve been on them for the last 5 years myself due to a 18 wheeler wreck and nerve damage in my right arm and my dang head is litterly screwed onto my spine , So I can joke and say I`d loose me head if it wasn`t screwed on ...I don`t know how the wife and kids stand to be around me sometimes ....My life with out them was pretty much useless ..So I know what worse feels like too ..It`s really hard to find something I can enjoy these days , but I keep looking ..If it makes me smile it`s got to be really funny ..and I`ll keep shooting black powder guns untill they pry them from my cold dead hands ...So don`t let things get to ya with out thinking , I`m getting better at giveing things alot of thought before I say something that might offend someone ..Thank God for understanding women ..life would be lonely with out them .

[Misfire99]

amen

[Old Dragoon]

Misfire99,
I do sincerely apologize for jumping on you. I have the normal aches and pains of a 63 year old and a couple bum knees, one that is almost constant with some sort of pain. I totally emphasize with you. I have my P***ed Off days too and perhaps that was one when I jumped in.
Hang in there and take those kids shooting with you. You are lucky, I never had any Children and now at 63 I know I miss some one calling my dad or grandpa. I do have a great Nephew and a great grand Nephew that I'm going to get to see before Christmas. Nephew is 37 Today. His boy is 3. Those two and my sister are all that's left of my immediate family. Thy're in N.C. and I'm here in CA. Not much family fun right now.

[Misfire99]

My son is eight and my daughter is twelve. I took my son out to shoot my 1858 Remington. I think the smoke and noise sort of scared him. I don't know what I was thinking. I started on a Ruger 22 pistol I think I should have done that for him also. If it wasn't for my kids I don't think I would be here. My daughter plays the piano very well. She did a state wide competition and took second place. She was bummed when she got home. She really wanted first. I asked her "Do you know the difference from first and second place?" She shook her head no. I said "Practice." She started addind five minutes to each practice each week until she had doubled her time everyday. One her own she did that. My son is a very nice boy. He is sort of a geek but that's because I have been sick for so long. Hopefully I will be able to spend more time with him. Next month we are going to start doing Aikido together. I have done martial arts for 35 years. Part of that time was doing Aikido. I don't think Aikido is a very good combative art but it's very fun to do. Hopefully I wont break, or hurt to much, and he and I can do something physical together. He wants me to teach him how to use a sword but I think he is a little young yet.

[Gaucho Gringo]

Old Dragoon & Misfire99 I can sympathize with you as I also am living with pain. I hate taking the pain pills but I hate the alternative worse. I am 56 and have been on SSI for 6 years now because I am unable to work. I know all about bad days but some of them are good. And when I come to this forum and read and post I feel somewhat better. I can shoot revolvers but I don't think I can shoot rifles or shotguns anymore. I haven't tried to but every time I even try to sight one in the pain is unbearable. My neck is so rotten with arthritis, bone spurs and about every degenerative problem known to man. I would hate to have to defend myself hand to hand as I would not have a chance. One blow or grab at my neck and I am gone. This is why I keep my guns around to defend myself. When I was younger I did not think of my guns for defense, more for fun or hunting. At least I am glad I can fire a revolver or pistol for fun. It is one of the very few things that I can enjoy nowadays. No more fishing, hunting or boating but I can at least target shoot with my revolvers. It is a fun hobby.

[Misfire99]

I feel for you Gaucho Gringo. I can't get disability. I have been flipping houses for the last eleven years or so. I didn't have any fica or that sort of stuff taken out of my check because I didn't have a check. I was doing very well averaging a little over 100k per year. I saw the housing slump coming. Rental prices were beginning to fall because there was so much money pumped into realestate and there were not enough renters to support the investment. I moved to Montana because my research showed that the housing slump might not hit here, and it hasn't. But I bought us a home and a rental. I was going to sell the 3300 sq ft home in Clyde for about 3/4 of a mil. Then buy a bunch of the smaller homes here for 125k. Now they sell for 275k. But I got cancer right after I bought the house in Montana. But my health insurance is only good in California. So for three years I was covering mortgages and costs on two houses and had one rental. I was gushing red ink. Now I am down to one house and no money and no income. My wife has taken in violin and piano students. I only have a few hours a day that I have any energy and that makes it hard to get a job. I'm really F__ed. I'm starting to pull guns out of my collection and sell them. I hate that. I'm looking for some way I can make money at home. I have a lathe and a bunch of tools so I was thinking of setting up a small machine shop. Take in small projects that would normally be cost prohibitive but because I'm self contained and small I think I can cut the price about in half what a normal machine shop would charge. I can then work at my own speed and on my own time. Cross your fingers. If it doesn't work I will need welfare, I'd really hate that!!!

Oh if anybody wants an old C&R shooter rifle drop me a PM and I will see what I have. I will give you a fair deal also.