What round has least Penetration?


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GVMan
October 14, 2007, 08:05 AM
I tried searching on this subject and couldn't find anything but I know it is here somewhere.

I have mainly been using 9mm JHP for its lower price and lower recoil. However, I've heard the 9mm over-penetrates easily.

So, I have was wondering if some of the heavier rounds might not over penetrate as much?

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alucard0822
October 14, 2007, 09:17 AM
In handgun loads, Heavier bullets or higher velocities tend to penetrate more, expansion or fragmentation reduce penetration, the problem is that penetration is completely neccesary to an effective weapon. a light 22 probably would not penetrate more than a couple layers of drywall, but It also would perform very poorly aggainst an attacker with a winter coat, and lacks the ability to stop someone who is about to do immediate harm to you. If you can shoot the 9mm you currently have well, you are more likely to incapacitate someone with a solid COM hit, which would penetrate a background far less than a complete miss with a pistol in a less powerful loading. Overpenetration is nothing more than a buzzword for "a little too much of a good thing" where it is wasted energy that could have been used on the target, ideally the perfect defensive bullet would tunnel through whatever clothing the perp was wearing, or even an arm in the way of the torso, expand to a healthy ammount, punch through the boiler room, and basically have just enough power to fall out of the exit wound. This bullet doesn't exist, so to err on the side of reliable performance 12" of penetration in ballistic gelatin would be a minimum, 16" would be good, if a bullet cannot penetrate to this depth it's reliability in stopping an attacker would be in question, expansion is a bonus, but should not be at the expense of adequate penetration.

look here for some good info on performance of a wide variety of loads
http://www.brassfetcher.com/

Odd Job
October 14, 2007, 09:30 AM
If you absolutely positively HAVE to be 100% sure your round won't go through the target and hit an innocent bystander, then you either have to fire blanks or snakeshot.
The above statement is based on the fact that you cannot guarantee 100% accurate shot placement, which in turn results in a variable target thickness from less then an inch to well over 12 inches.

SDC
October 14, 2007, 10:14 AM
For LEAST penetration, I'd think something like the "Thunderzap" or "beanbag" rounds would fit the bill, but these also aren't nearly as likely to stop someone immediately. The Thunderzaps are basically machined plastic hollow-base wadcutters that are loaded backwards, with an obscene velocity, so when they hit it's like slapping your cupped hand into water. Rich Davis sold these precisely because they wouldn't penetrate deeply, but they more than likely wouldn't even be able to make it into a chest cavity. The "beanbag" rounds they originally made for sky marshalls are likewise made not to penetrate, but they use a charge of lightweight shot inside a flat fabric pillow. When they hit, they allow the shot to tear through the bag, but were meant to not cause a large hole in the skin of a jetliner to allow explosive decompression (something that's now known not to happen from gunshots anyway). Here's a picture of a "Shortstop" beanbag round, next to a Glaser Safety Slug, with a bag from the Shortstop below:

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p22/StaceyC123/ShortStopGlaser.jpg

The Lone Haranguer
October 14, 2007, 10:31 AM
The bullet must penetrate to some degree if it is to work at all.

I have mainly been using 9mm JHP for its lower price and lower recoil. However, I've heard the 9mm over-penetrates easily.

The bad reputation for totally perforating a body and going on to hit something else is from the FMJ loads, not so much JHP loads.

Something else to consider is that the "target" may have his hands or arms in front of his chest. These must be penetrated first in order to reach the vital organs and stop the attack. Those "gadget" rounds illustrated above may not do that.

22-rimfire
October 14, 2007, 10:53 AM
Sufficient penetration vs over penetration, that is the question? Stick to the hollow point bullet types. Essentially until you get to the "magnum" calibers, you are not dealing with significant over penetration. Police moved away from 38sp revolvers in the 1960's for the 357 magnum to get more penetration especially into cars and so forth. The 41 magnum was developed for more knockdown power in the mid-1960's, but it never really caught on primarily due to the size of the available revolvers and the recoil.

Really doesn't matter in hind sight because when the wonder 9's were introduced along with the Glock (1980ish), police agencies flocked to the higher capacity simpler designs. The revolver was essentially dead as a law enforcement side arm. The 9mms are just about like a 38spl round in terms of performance overall. The 40 S&W was developed as the ideal FBI round with both penetration and knockdown power. I'm told that many FBI officers use something a bit heavier these days.

Hauptmann
October 14, 2007, 11:55 AM
Winchester Ranger Talons are some of the best defense ammunition on the market. It adheres to principles developed over the last 20 years of by law enforcement demands and and strives to meet those needs. Here's a list of how the various calibers compare to one another in the Ranger Talon series. Bare gel is 10% ballistic gel calibrated to mimick human muscle tissue. The other tests involve the placing of various barriers in front of the gel to demonstrate how the ammunition would perform if you had to shoot someone through such barriers. These tests were performed according to strict standardized protocals developed by the FBI. After penetrating a barrier such as steel, glass, wood,....etc the hollow point will often become damaged or plugged with material(wood/cloth) which will limit the bullet's ability to expand. This explains why the bullets in the below testing tend to penetrate more deeply after penetrating barriers with reduced expansion.

.380 95gr(1000fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 7.65”/.65”
Through Denim: 7.95”/.64”
Through Heavy Cloth: 7.85”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.36”
Through Plywood: 15.5”/.36”
Through Steel: 9.3”/.36”
Through Auto Glass: 4.5”/NA

9mm+P 124gr(1180fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.2”/.70”
Through Denim: 13.9”/.67”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.3”/.68”
Through Wallboard: 14”/.66”
Through Plywood: 13.1”/.65”
Through Steel: 18.9”/.40”
Through Auto Glass: 10.6”/.48”

9mm+P+ 127gr(1250fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.3”/.64”
Through Denim: 12.2”/.68”
Through Heavy Cloth: 12.2”/.68”
Through Wallboard: 12.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 12”/.68”
Through Steel: 20.5”/.40”
Through Auto Glass: 9.4”/.48”

9mm 147gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.9”/.65”
Through Denim: 14.5”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14”/.66”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.67”
Through Plywood: 14.8”/.62”
Through Steel: 17”/.45”
Through Auto Glass: 10.8”/.52”

.357sig 125gr(1350fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 10.9”/.63”
Through Denim: 12.1”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 10.7”/.69”
Through Wallboard: 15.4”/.48”
Through Plywood: 12.2”/.66”
Through Steel: 23.4”/.41”
Through Auto Glass: 10.3”/.49”

.40S&W 165gr(1140fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.7”/.61”
Through Denim: 13.2”/.70”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14.3”/.68”
Through Wallboard: 11.4”/.69”
Through Plywood: 13.1”/.71”
Through Steel: 20.4”/.48”
Through Auto Glass: 11.3”/.61”

.40S&W 180gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.60”
Through Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Through Steel: 17”/.52”
Through Auto Glass: 12”/.61”

.45acp/.45gap 230gr(905fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 11.6”/.75”
Through Denim: 12.7”/.72”
Through Heavy Cloth: 12.3”/.75”
Through Wallboard: 15.2”/.69”
Through Plywood: 18”/.453”
Through Steel: 16.5”/.53”
Through Auto Glass: 12”/.58”

.45acp+P 230gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.2”/.79”
Through Denim: 15.2”/.78”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.7”/.78”
Through Wallboard: 13.8”/.75”
Through Plywood: 14.6”/.77”
Through Steel: 20.6”/.53”
Through Auto Glass: 13.6”/.60”


Since 1987, the FBI still recommends using ammunition that has a minimum penetration depth of 12" in properly calibrated ballistic gel. The FBI takes into account actual shooting incidents and uses that data every few years for new rounds of testing. The conclusions are still the same in the last two decades, penetration is always more important than expansion and you want a penetration depth between 12-16". Expansion should be maximized too, but not if it impedes penetration too much.

If you are serious about defending yourself and your family, I recommend that you use 9mm 147gr Ranger Talons, or another equivalent. If you prefer .40S&W, use the 180gr. For .45acp, use the +P loading which is the top overall performer of them all.

Shipwreck
October 14, 2007, 12:53 PM
I got my Five Seven (made by FN) and loaded it with the FN 197 ammo. It is a Vmax round, and it mushrooms very well. But, it doens't go overly deep. And, it tends to fragment when it hits hard targets. I don't know how many rounds of sheet rock would stop it, but it will be stopped before a 9mm round will be. (the FN 195 ammo penetrates more, but doesn't expand - it yaws instead).

Now that I have a son, I got this as my new nightstand gun. It is less likely to go thru multiple interior walls than a 9mm would (my prev nightstand gun).

Be aware that after this post, there will undoubtedly be nay-sayers posting about the 5.7x28mm round. I've read enough tests that show me the round is good enough for self defense. Depending on how tests are done, you can get different results. Most of the guys who come after the round are people who don't own one, and they have made it their mission to hop onto EVERY 5.7x28mm thread, and repeat the same stuff over and over.

So, if you are interested in the round, make sure to dig around and take what some people say with a grain of salt (including myself - if I want to be fair :neener: )

The round is more powerful out of the PS90 carbine, but I'm still satisfied with it out of the pistol.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Five-12.jpg

alucard0822
October 14, 2007, 01:19 PM
Ranger talons are decent quality ammo, but due to availability, and Winchester's crappy attitude as far as civilian sales of their "LE only" lines go, I would rather use a comparable round that I have proven to function reliably at least 200 times over, and offering the most expansion possible while maintaining at least 12" of tested penetration. FMJ in .380s, and 9mm maks. 147gr gold dots or golden sabres in 9mm 158gr in 38sp +p&357 mag 230gr in 45acp. I do not own a 40s&w, but suspect the heavier 180gr loads would be ideal. In most cases there is nothing that a gold dot or ranger talon would do that WWB couldn't, but in short barreled or under 100gr&1000fps pistols, FMJ actually offers an advantage over pricy hollowpoints, in that FMJ offers adequate penetration, and is often the most reliable feeding round, where hollowpoints will only penetrate 7" or so at best, and the harsh blowback operation and small size make a misfeed more likely. I for one choose defensive ammo/caliber based on factors in this order. Reliability(no jams, no FTF), consistency(QC issues that may function fine, but cause cases to split, corrode, deformed bullets, a felt difference in recoil between rounds), penetration (12"min, 14"-16" ideal), ability to control (no excessive recoil) accuracy(4" at 25ft slowfire, 8" at 15ft rapid fire), and lastly expansion. There are several platform/ammo combinations that are excellent in all areas, but being in MD, concealment is not even a factor, but if it were a tradeoff in expansion for easier concealment/faster draw from concealment would be IMO a good decision, say passing on the 5" 1911 in the summer in favor of a makarov.


So, if you are interested in the round, make sure to dig around and take what some people say with a grain of salt (including myself - if I want to be fair )


ultimately you will have to be confident in what you choose, you have all the knowledge and misinformation in the world at your fingertips, it is up to you to sort out which is which, I could suggest reading "In the gravest extreme" for some valuable info from one of the best in the buisness, might help clear the air.

Hauptmann
October 14, 2007, 01:23 PM
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000768#000014

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000050#000000

Lots of good reading on these threads in relation to the 5.7mm cartridge.

Shipwreck
October 14, 2007, 03:02 PM
Well, there is all sorts of info on the Five Seven - mixed in with the arguments on this forum, Ar15, The Firing Line, Five Seven Forum and the FN Forum. I have also read a few ballistic tests on some magazines that were interesting.

James T Thomas
October 14, 2007, 03:30 PM
Here is another for you.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember where I learned this. How ever, I do believe the related incident is correct.

There was a robbery of a store in progress, and one of the clerks, behind the counter decided to fire upon one of the robbers as he turned his back to the clerk.

The clerk fired a round from his 25 ACP into the back of the robber; I believe he was exiting the store at the moment. The robber was wearing a heavy leather "motorcycle jacket." The robber spun around to see where the shot came from apparently, and clickety clack, the bullet clattered onto the floor behind the robber. It had not penetrated the jacket even deep enough to stick in it!

Maybe a 25 ACP is what you are looking for.

GVMan
October 14, 2007, 09:31 PM
Yes, I understand that I want penetration. I just wondered if a bigger slower bullet might still have enough penetration and stopping power without zinging through the universe.

Thanks for the table Hauptmann! I am really amazed to see how close most of the rounds from 9mm on up really penetrated.

ArchAngelCD
October 14, 2007, 09:39 PM
If you hit what you are shooting at I doubt most 9mm SD rounds will pass completely through a human body. It's when you miss you have to worry about going through a wall and hitting something or someone you didn't want to hit.

moxie
October 15, 2007, 10:43 AM
Least penetration is a .22 Short fired from one of the old RG-10 revolvers. Penetration is absolutely zero.

The reason is that you cannot, ever, hit the target with one of these revolvers. If you try holding the muzzle against the target, the gun will likely misfire, resulting in zero penetration as well.

mekender
October 15, 2007, 03:30 PM
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...=000768#000014

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...=000050#000000

Lots of good reading on these threads in relation to the 5.7mm cartridge.

unfortunately those tests were all done with the ss190 steel core penetrator round... those are next to impossible to get, and are classified as AP rounds by the BATF... the new rounds are either the ss195 or ss197, both of which are not AP rounds... since the round uses a .224 bullet (same as the 5.56) the penetration will be similar, but you have to take into account that the round is lighter and it travels at about 500fps slower than a standard 5.56 round... i have yet to see an actuall penetration test with either ss195 or 197 ammo so there really isnt much data to go on....

alucard0822
October 15, 2007, 04:54 PM
unfortunately those tests were all done with the ss190 steel core penetrator round... those are next to impossible to get, and are classified as AP rounds by the BATF... the new rounds are either the ss195 or ss197, both of which are not AP rounds... since the round uses a .224 bullet (same as the 5.56) the penetration will be similar, but you have to take into account that the round is lighter and it travels at about 500fps slower than a standard 5.56 round... i have yet to see an actuall penetration test with either ss195 or 197 ammo so there really isnt much data to go on....


62gr m885 5.56 goes about 2900fps from a 14.5" M4, employs fragmentation as it's main wounding mechanism, reliable only above 2700 fps. Fragments penetrate from 6" to 14".

SS197 is a 40gr bullet going about 2000fps out of a 16" ps90 and yaws to a penetration of about 9"-10"

brassfetcher.com has tests for both rounds

mekender
October 15, 2007, 05:10 PM
thanks for that... unfortunately there arent very many sites that show truly reliable tests for different rounds

mekender
October 15, 2007, 05:25 PM
looks like it has similar penetration to a 9mm, what you have to consider as well is impact energy and magazine capacity... it looks like the round carries more energy on impact than all but the 10mm and the .40... and it hits at almost twice the speed... not to mention that you can get a pistol with 20 rounds in it Vs. the 15 or less for .40 and about the same for the 10mm... its a personal choice though, a well placed round will do the job no matter what the caliber... the VT shooter used a .22 and a 9mm i believe....

Raspu10
October 15, 2007, 05:39 PM
i know only about these three... 100% sure...

9mm Is Best Penetrator
45 comes 2nd
40 is the least able to penetrate..

Before you start flaming on something you dont know visit this place where they test ALL THE TIME.. And every time 9mm is the best penetrator.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

Hauptmann
October 15, 2007, 06:59 PM
mekender,

The issue isn't with armor piercing so much as projectile behavior when it impacts tissue. The verdict is in, the 5.7 is very weak in tissue destruction compared to classic expansion rounds in 9mm, .40S&W, and .45acp/.45gap. Read some more into the Tactical Forums links I posted and read more of the other topics in regard to terminal effects of handguns.

In the last 20 years the FBI has done continuous testing of ammunition in the lab, in addition to taking case after case of actual shooting incidents into consideration when standardizing their tests. When a bullet fails to do its job on the street, that round is heavily tested to see how in behaves in the lab.....the same goes for bullets that perform well in the field. This is how the standardized FBI protocals were developed and why they are open for revision as new testing comes about. The only changes that have been made have been in regard to barrier protocals that were added in the mid 1990s. In addition to the FBI other labs such as the Firearms Institute perform testing of ammunition in accord to FBI standards through funding from police agencies.

The verdict?.....the 5.7 is about as effective as stabbing someone with an ice pick. It's a shame, I like the concept of the PDWs as a valuable law enforcement tool. A few agencies have adopted the FN P90 for SWAT use, but many are now opting for M4s as a result of the 5.7's street performance in which agencies have access to for equipment evaluation.

mekender
October 15, 2007, 07:13 PM
well what i dont get is that the bullet is the EXACT same bullet as the standard 5.56 round, just with a smaller casing and smaller powder load... the standard factory ammo is indeed lighter, but reloads to work up to and beyond 62gr... so with say a 50 or so grain boattail round, how much worse will it perform out of a smaller casing than if it were in a 5.56... i cant imagine that it will be that much worse especially considering the energy at impact and the speed of travel... ive seen examples over and over again of standard pistol rounds failing to expand, or not penetrating enough to be effective, i just dont see how this is much different...

Trebor
October 15, 2007, 08:39 PM
For a defensive handgun round, any round that is going to work well on a human target *is* going to go through sheetrock walls, etc. There's just no getting around it as it has to have enough energy to penetrate deeply enough in the human body to stop an attacker.\

What you want is a modern design JHP bullet. This will reduce the chance of overpenetrating, but it can't eliminate it entirely. It will especially reduce the chance of the bullet going through the bad guy and hitting someone behind him.

The round to avoid is any FMJ round. 9mm FMJ rounds are known for their amazing penetrative abilities in obstacles, etc.

alucard0822
October 15, 2007, 10:26 PM
The most effective wounds that will incapacitate an attacker are either to penetrate and destroy vital organs, CNS, or to disrupt enough tissue to cause skeletal or muscular failure. Bleed out takes too much time, "energy dump" effects are near minimal at pistol velocities, and temporary cavity volume is also minimal, and is useless unless it can destroy tissue. More or less, a pistol round has to punch through the boiler room, or damage enough tissue to make a continued attack physically impossible. One thing to consider in terminal ballistics of pistols is the volume of the permanent cavity and it's depth, both increase the chances of destroying organs, and a resulting incapacitation, this holds true in both 2 and 4 legged targets. 5.7X28 has a bullet .224"X.750 that does not expand or fragment, but yaws, so at 9.5" of penetration assuming it is completely sideways 1/2 of the path, the wound channel will be just over 1 cubic inch. A 9m that penetrates to 11 inches, and expands to .6 after 2"" will have a wound channel of 2.7ci. A 45 that penetrates to 13" and expands to .750 after 2" will have a wound volume of 5.1ci. Just for comparison a 22lr 40gr round nose at 13" of penetration will have .5ci of wound volume.

The capacity is indeed impressive, but if you concider maximum possible damage volume per mag not even concidering most defensive shootings involve less than 4 rounds fired. 7rds of 45acp=35.7ci, 15rds of 9mm=40.5ci, 20rds of 5.7X28=20.2ci

so with say a 50 or so grain boattail round, how much worse will it perform out of a smaller casing than if it were in a 5.56... i cant imagine that it will be that much worse especially considering the energy at impact and the speed of travel...

5.56 ball ammo fragments above 2700fps, and scatters shards of core and jacket at depths up to 14" deep randomly perforating and area upwards of 15ci, increasing the chance of rupturing the vitals. 5.7x28 simply does not employ this wounding mechanism or penetrate this deep.

There is no question a 5.7x28 can potentially stop an attacker, or kill, and the 20rd capacity is impressive, but the numbers, tests and ballistics hint at the likelyhood a COM shot has of doing what is required of a defensive firearm, and the size is somewhat ungainly for CC, ultimately you should carry what suits your ability, and what chambering you think provides adequate performance. I would rather be confident in my choices performance, than confident it would not overpenetrate, as the very real possibility of a miss to me kind of negates that concern for the most part, and most Bad folk tend to be quite a bit tougher than a couple sheets of drywall.

Shipwreck
October 15, 2007, 11:22 PM
That's why I like the 5.7 Vmax round (the 197) that fragments a lot more than the 195 ammo that yaws. I think it makes a better defensive round. The wound channel in some of the tests I have seen have been impressive.

RancidSumo
October 15, 2007, 11:29 PM
Shipwreck, how do you like that Five Seven? I have been wanting to try one out but nobody has one including the gun stores. How much did it cost you?

Chris B
October 16, 2007, 12:10 AM
Check out theboxotruth.com for penetration tests on sheetrock. They indicate that most pistol rounds that are sufficient for HD will pass through 12 sheets. Buck shot between #4 and 00 will pass through 8-9. Maybe you need a 12 guage? I'm no expert though and I've done very limited research.

Hauptmann
October 16, 2007, 12:46 AM
Maybe you need a 12 guage?

A 12 gauge shotgun is the most versitile firearm a citizen can own. With 00 Buck you pack similar firepower to that of a fully automatic submachine gun at close range. Maximum recommended range for lethality of 00 Buck is usually 25 yards, with serious wounding ability up to 50 yards depending on the quality of the ammo. With rifled slugs you can get 4" groupings at 100 yards and the ability to hunt effectively any animal in North America.....just not at longer ranges. With bird shot or other light shot you can hunt any small game of your choosing and use it in home defense with a lethal range of around 7 yards, but VERY light penetration beyond that.

As long as you are comfortable and proficient with a shotgun, it can fill your every need.....except for concealed carry of course. 00 Buck is the prefered load of law enforcement and the military for close ranged use. The most common 00 Buck load is nine .32 caliber pellets flying at 1300fps. A center mass hit with such a load at 15 yards will inflict a very serious degree of trauma, especially if using harder copper plated pellets.

Shipwreck
October 16, 2007, 12:58 PM
Shipwreck, how do you like that Five Seven? I have been wanting to try one out but nobody has one including the gun stores. How much did it cost you?

I like it a lot - I already had the PS90. I too gave up trying to find someone in my area that has one. So, I took a chance.

I got mine thru Buds for $779. The last of his old stock sold out, and I think his nbewest bacth is like $50 higher.

If U are interested, though, contact Bud's thru the FN Forum - They are a forum sponsor, and U can get one for a few dollars cheaper thru the forum than U can directly from Bud's website on your own.

I now have five 20-round mags and one of the 30-round mags for it.

evan price
October 17, 2007, 03:29 AM
A Blank!

:neener:

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