[351 WINCHESTER]

I just read on www.myfwc.com that they outlawed the new cva electra for use during m/l season. Not that I'd ever buy one as it isn't normal in my way of thinking, but thought some of you might want to know.

[tkendrick]

Actually not too surprising.

Several Western States have started putting all kinds of restrictions on the "modern in-line" type of muzzle loaders.

No sabots, no pelletized powders and no scopes in Colorado. In-lines are pretty much out for some deer hunts in New Mexico, also no scopes, pellets sabots, belted bullets, etc.

Was at an Arizona fish and game meeting a year or so back where someone brought up the idea of banning them for big game hunting all together, but so far they haven't. A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that they don't really go with the original intent of a "primitive" season.

I don't own one, and probably never will, and could probably go down that road.....but.....

Where would you draw the line?

I have an old TC Hawken .50. Looks traditional, except it has a 28 inch twist, shoots REAL bullets just fine, but you can forget shooting round ball. So is it "traditional"?

Like I said, where would you draw the line.

[arcticap]

It's just that the current legal definition of a muzzle loader in FLA is based on it having a percussion cap ignition. That can be changed if the lawmakers want to include the CVA Electra.
On the other hand, in Mississippi, the legal definition of Primitive Weapons allows for breech loading guns with an exposed hammer that shoot smokeless metallic cartridges over .38 caliber.

http://home.mdwfp.com/license.aspx
(click on hunting regulations)

It's all about politics. ;)

[sundance44s]

I live in Mississippi and am not happy with the new primitive gun season here ..we are Now allowed to use any 45/70 rifle with smokeless rounds ..scopes anything goes ...I don`t know what they are thinking ..They might as well do away with the primitive season and just call it gun season ...The woods here are so full of hunters with the H&R handy rifle/scoped and chambered in 45/70 ( Cheapest way to go ) I think I`ll stay home and just let them have it . Maybe I`m too traditional for the times but I have my values , and this just doesn`t get it with me .

[ranger335v]

I was greatful when "primitive" weapons, ML, dedicated seasons were opened to give the users a more sporting chance to succeed with the short range and accuracy limits of those weapons. Suddenly, my side hammer front loader with iron sights would have a fair chance to get a deer!

I still don't object to anyone using more advanced weapons but I don't feel that those with in-line ignition, sabot projectiles, scopes and, in Savages case, even smokeless powder are in keeping with the limits of what was intended when the early but limited seasons for primitive weapons began. In fact, the newer rifles have no real limits vs. smokeless cartidge rifles except the fact of being single shots. So that makes them the equilivent of a Ruger #1 or #3, or an H&R Handi, etc.

Any hunters who wish to use the modern ML rifles should do so during the normal rifle season periods, not the primitive weapons season. As large caliber single shots conceeding little but range, and that to only a few cartridge rifles, the normal season hunting should be a sporting challenge sufficent for their owners!

[obxned]

I'm a flintlock man, and I'm not sure those damned cap guns should be legal.

[Dravur]

Flintlocks and Percussion is way too modern. We should only allow Matchlocks, and Cannon locks.

And you must dress in period costume. But you get to pick the country.. I wanna wear one of them frilly neck ruffle thingybobs... and a big hat with a feather!

[bigdog21]

FWC DOESNT make anything iLLEGAL the state legislature does. FWC just enforces the laws that are written.

[arcticap]

Some states originally allowed for smoothbores only (based on barrel rifling), others allowed flintlock only (based on action type), while other like mine set a date that the rifle had to be a reproduction of.
If a state used the civil war, or even say 1879, as the bases of what a legal reproduction rifle could include, and the rolling block, or other breech loading cartridge guns were allowed with exposed hammers, then the only main difference between Mississippi's regulations and the actual primitive era guns would be that the cartridges can be loaded with smokeless in addition to black powder.
They are ignoring the cartridge and basing on the type of action of a later era in their legal definition of "primitive".
Maybe they want to cater to the tourists and those who would really like to use their civil war era single shot rifles or similar exposed hammer guns.
They must have enough deer to accomodate lots of hunters, plus I suppose that there is a lot of private land. Since they aren't allowing repeaters & semi-auto's, then it's all considered to be a primitive single shot hunting method.
One shot is one shot, it's like everyone having one vote, everyone is more or less equal, at least as far as the interpretation of the Mississippi primitive weapon definition goes (but muzzle loaders can have 2 barrels).

[sundance44s]

Sure wish the`d let me fish with a stick of TNT or just call the fish up with my old phone ..then I wouldn`t have to try so darn hard when I want fish for dinner ...I think I`ll write Fish and Game and complain .

[arcticap]

You need one of those big punt guns that can shoot a whole flock of ducks at one time like back in the market hunting days! :D

[351 WINCHESTER]

Bigdog21, You are partly correct insomuch as FWC does not make the laws, but their recommedations were followed by our legislature who makes the laws. Imagine the legislatave branch making up their own hunting rules and regs.

[mykeal]

Primitive season should be limited to stone axes.

[dogrunner]

Florida's F&W agency MIGHT be surpassed in worthlesness by Family Services.....but it'd be a close race.

Truly, if a sadder example of a game/fish management agency exists in the U.S. I'd sure like to hear about it. Regulations are truly byzintine in scope,the Board itself is totally staff driven and even the most basic techniques are sadly lacking.....As just one simple example, there is utterly NO accounting for deer harvest....at least on private lands, and even on WMAs the process is haphazard as hell.

Damndest collection of do nothings one could imagine!

[LAR-15]

Atlatl season

[ArmedBear]

Hell, if you're doing to have a "primitive" season, you have to draw the line somewhere. Sure, it's easy to call it "arbitrary," because anything you pick as a required or prohibited characteristic is arbitrary in some way.

So that criticism holds no water.

What else do you want? Flechette darts from a 12 Gauge during archery season?

[kartoffel]

Atlatl season

No kidding, they actually let you hunt with those here in Alabama! ML season is open to modern guns, though. On the flip side, they let you take your flintlock out during regular deer season too.

I'd be quite happy drawing a line for a true "primitive" ML season. As for where the line goes, that's debatable. How about: anything goes as long as it's got a side lock, and is loaded with a full caliber bullet and Holy Black.

[mykeal]

A true 'primitive' hunting season is stone axes only. No metal.
A true 'primitive' ML hunting season is a matchlock. No percussion locks, no flintlocks.

Using the word 'primitive' is never going to work - everyone's definition is different. Just call it a 'percussion sidelock muzzleloader' season, or 'flintlock' season, or 'in-line percussion' seaon, or whatever you decide is the type of weapon you think is the one that should be allowed.

How about this:
Nov 1 through Nov 3: stone axes only
Nov 4 through Nov 6: matchlocks only
Nov 7 through Nov 9: flinlocks only
Nov 10 through Nov 12: percussion sidelocks only
Nov 13 through Nov 15: percussion inlines only
Nov 16 through Nov 18: electronic ignition inlines only
Nov 19 through Nov 21: centerfire smokeless rifles only
Nov 22 through Nov 24: shotguns (smokeless & bp) only
Nov 25 through Nov 27: grenades, RPG's & claymores only

Oh, yes, archery. Well, we'd have to put them in Nov 28 through Nov 31. One day for longbows, one for recurve, one for compound. Crossbows on Dec. 1.

Sherman tanks with less than 105mm main guns on Dec 2...

[kartoffel]

Alright, forget about "primitive". Let's call it a "traditional" season. Inline muzzleloaders were designed to exploit loopholes in hunting regulations. You might as well lobby for an RPG season (I did chuckle, mykeal :) )It is no more legitimate or honorable to use an inline during ML season than it is to hunt with with grenades.

ML seasons in most states overlap with archery seasons. Both seasons exist to give those hunters a break from all crowds of poorly trained "hunters" who like to shoot at anything that moves. Permitting cheater guns in ML season opens the floodgate to the wrong kind of people. Is it elitist? Hell yes. If you don't like it, take your inline out during centerfire season.

The point isn't to create dozens of nit-picky mini seasons. The point is to give hunters who stalk quietly and fire at close range to have some peace and quiet (and safety) away from bubba.

[jerkface11]

Give the "black powder" rifle industry a few more years and they'll "invent" a breech loader too.

[ImARugerFan]

Anyway, who wants to rely on a battery while staring at a big buck down the barrel.

[slzy]

i think flintlocks would be the place for line drawing.

[Dave1]

Cartridge guns and then repeating cartridge rifles brought about the end of the muzzle loader era. That is a very clear distinction and in my opinion is what should be used as "the line".

Muzzle loaders had to then and still have to be loaded from the muzzle, one shot at a time. Muzz guns and the propellants varied and changed over the years as they were improved right up to today with the latest improvement being smokeless powder muzz guns. In my opinion the load from the muzzle, one shot at a time concept has not changed, the ingredients have just been improved as they were from day one.

So, let the early gun season be for "muzzle loaders" only (gun of your choice) and let any of the propellants (including the newest most improved) be used. This way there is a very clear distinction, less hassel, laws are clear and easy to enforce, everybody is fairly happy. The very primitive guys can get as primitive as they want, the more modern guys can get as modern as they want, and everybody gets to hunt with their preferred gun.

Dave1

[351 WINCHESTER]

I have a knight inline that is a pain in the but to clean. I have 2 cva bobcats that are very accurate, relaible and easy to clean. No, they are not 150 yd. guns, but at reasonable whitetail ranges they do just fine.

[Gewehr98]

I cringe when I see folks getting pissy about a given muzzleloading rifle not being "primitive" enough. This, when we just got over the whole Zumbo crapstorm, and the numbers of young hunters and shooters in this country aren't getting any better. Intolerance for fellow shooters and their preferred firearms makes us all look bad, especially to anti-gunners.

Me, I'd say as long as it loads from the front end, it's a muzzleloader, period. That means no quickie second shot, so Mr. Whitetail had better be down with the first one. Scoped muzzleloaders don't bother me, because scoped Whitworths were in use during the Civil War, lest we forget, dropping all sorts of 2-legged and 4-legged critters from way the hell off. Tell those Confederate snipers their rifles were only good for 100-200 yards at best.

Now, if you feel a matchlock is the best for the job, by all means, have at it. You can even wear frilly pantaloons with codpieces if you so desire, and you'd best be commuting to and from the woods via horseback, none of this half-assed stuff! If you have a 209 primer variant, or (Lord forbid!) the new electric arc ignition model, that's good, too - you're out there, hunting and shooting, keeping the traditions going for younger generations. Not only that, but you're still pouring powder down the muzzle, and ramming a projectile home with a ramrod. Bummer if your battery dies, maybe one could pack a series of primitive Baghdad batteries along just in case?

I do feel bad for the paper-cartridge breechloader Sharps folks, because they're not "primitive" enough to get muzzleloader status in many states. I would wager the owner of a modern Ferguson replica would be in the same quandry.

Now, with respect to getting pissy about "primitive", Sharp Pointy Stick season hasn't been addressed, nor has Jumping-Onto-Critter-From-A-Tree-And-Breaking-Its-Neck-With-Bare-Hands season, or the old reliable Driving-Game-Off-A-Cliff season. Y'all had better get busy! :scrutiny:

[Blackfork]

There are more whitetail deer in the Continental US right now than there ever have been, including before any homind set foot on the place. At the same time there are more game laws and regulations than ever. I don't think the two are connected, in fact, I think there are so many deer that the season ought to be abolished and the whitetail removed from the list of game animals and be classified with vermin and varmits.

And gun laws? Sheesh.

[mykeal]

gewehr98 - exactly my thoughts. Well said.

[Freightman]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it must be. if it uses an charge of propellant and a projectile comes from the muzzle I like it period. It is a gun, rifle , pistol, revolver, I like it. single shot to machine gun I like it. What part of shall not be abridged do you not understand.
Let us all get together and win the war with the "anti" group there goal is divide and conquer, and I might add they are doing a good job.

[ArmedBear]

What the hell are you talking about, Freightman?

The thread is about whether a specifically electronically-fired rifle is allowed by F&G for a "primitive" hunting season. That has nothing more to do with RKBA than the regulations for archery deer season do.

[Gewehr98]

That has nothing more to do with RKBA than the regulations for archery deer season do.


It is very much an RKBA issue, just like Zumbo saying AR-15s have no place in the hunting woods. You don't like a certain firearm, make sure you do what you can to keep it out of hunting season - that's easier than an outright ban, and more palatable to the remaining Zumbos out there who feel they have some edict from on high to dictate what they want in their woods.

It stinks on ice, and smacks of "my gun is better than yours", much like Perazzi-owning trap shooters thumbing their noses at the new guy with the Remington 870. In essence, if I don't like inline ignition frontstuffers in MY hunting woods, I contact Fish & Game, petitioning them to prohibit such firearms for muzzleloading season.

Lest we forget, the ONLY reason there are separate muzzleloading and centerfire deer seasons is because there's a plentiful herd out there, and a state's respective Department of Natural Resources is using the hunter to effectively manage that herd size. Bellyache enough, and perhaps the DNR will say "screw the whiny-assed muzzleloaders and their infighting over what defines primitive - we'll just make it a blanket firearms season instead, frontstuffer or otherwise". Be careful what one wishes for with the divide-and-conquer tactics...

[ArmedBear]

Lots of heat, no light.

If I'd seen your posts complaining about how archery season, shotgun magazine plugs, hunting rifle magazine size limits, bans on sighting systems like lasers and night vision for hunting, big game caliber minimums, "soft-point or expanding bullet" requirements, pistol hunting caliber requirements, pistol hunting barrel length minimums, etc. infringe on RKBA, then maybe I could even take you seriously.

[Selfdfenz]

I cringe when I see folks getting pissy about a given muzzleloading rifle not being "primitive" enough. This, when we just got over the whole Zumbo crapstorm, and the numbers of young hunters and shooters in this country aren't getting any better. Intolerance for fellow shooters and their preferred firearms makes us all look bad, especially to anti-gunners.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner! Man do I wish people would look at the big picture some times.

Here we have a separate season for Bow and Arrow vs. muzzleloaders vs gun.
No mention of primitive weapons thankfully.

Having said that the Electra is the same piece of gimmicky crap that the Etonix was and a great way for the industrial base to make a buck off the simple minded.

Best

S-

[ArmedBear]

Primitive or not, the FL F&G code defines rifles for the special muzzleloader season in a certain way, including the allowed ignition systems, which don't include an electronic gizmo.

This isn't about "divide and conquer." It's just FL applying their state laws as written. Stupid? Maybe. Inconsistent? Maybe. But it's got nothing to do with RKBA, "divide and conquer", Zumbo, or any other such thing.

Being an emotional, paranoid stereotype who is beyond a rational discussion and who is set off by something so trivial gives the anti's a lot more to work with than F&G rules for a special season. Think about that, when you calm down.

[Gewehr98]

Some see it, others don't. ;)

[mykeal]

Armed Bear said:

Being an emotional, paranoid stereotype who is beyond a rational discussion and who is set off by something so trivial gives the anti's a lot more to work with than F&G rules for a special season. Think about that, when you calm down.

Now we're name calling. That's the spirit of rational discussion, yes? Methinks thou needest a clean looking glass, sir.

[Gewehr98]

He made it pretty darned personal, didn't he? Myself, I'm trying to figure out which of my RKBA activities I'll have to curtail to make his stringent requirements.

I suppose I could quit being a rangemaster, volunteering time and money for the local Friends of the NRA dinner, give up my lifetime NRA membership, quit shooting at Camp Perry, shut down my newly-acquired Carnival of Cordite website, resign my two positions as moderator of a sister gun-related forum and another one that's doing the Appleseed promoting, etc. Then perhaps I could spend more time looking like a true RKBA supporter on just one internet forum, saturating it with posts to keep my count high.

I have friends and family working for the local DNR who are already getting nastygrams and phone calls, asking them when those evil CVA Electra guns are going to be banned from muzzleloading season.

Legislation doesn't begin in a vacuum - somebody has to drop the dime on that which displeases them. It's already beginning with the CVA Electra, just like the crapstorm that began when the inlines started hitting the market. The more things change, the more they stay the same. "You don't need an AK-47 to hunt with" isn't that much different than "You can't have that electric-ignition muzzleloader in my primitive season". Even though they're all front-stuffers, with arched trajectories (never a problem in my '74 Sharps, btw), and tons of smoke and powder fouling.

I find the CVA Electra to be a terrific way to introduce somebody to the blackpowder technique, and to add venison to the freezer outside the centerfire season. Since the deer herd here is at an unprecedented population this year, and I've already had a couple close calls on the county highways, I wouldn't denigrate somebody's desire to harvest a few more deer humanely vs. coming through the windshield.

Last I heard from my sources, they're not going to ban the CVA Electra here. Smart move. ;)

[Gewehr98]

Just checking, who has the best prices on the CVA Electra?