Yet another reason why we need CCW on campus (as if we needed another one)


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kd7nqb
October 15, 2007, 01:40 PM
As a student at PSU my campus policy says no firearms, state law says my permit is still valid of course the Medford Oregon case will hopefully change this for the better.

In the mean time last week a parking officer was attacked on campus in daylight

http://media.www.dailyvanguard.com/media/storage/paper941/news/2007/10/12/News/Stabbing.In.Parking.3-3029485.shtml

An unknown assailant attacked a parking enforcement officer at Portland State on October 10, by stabbing the officer in the arm.

The victim, a Transportation and Parking Services employee, approached a man around 5:25 p.m. in the stairwell of Parking Structure 3, located at the corner of Southwest 12th Avenue and Montgomery Street.

The man appeared to be crying and the victim checked to see if they could be of assistance. When the victim turned away, they were stabbed in the arm by an unknown object, possibly a needle or syringe, according to the Campus Public Safety Office (CPSO).

The individual was not making any sense and believed that somebody was out to get him, Lieutenant Craig Whitten of the CPSO said.

The suspect ran away and could not be located by Campus Public Safety Officers. The victim was taken to OHSU for treatment and Whitten said he is unsure if the victim is still hurt.

CPSO put out a campus alert looking for the suspect. The suspect is described as a six-foot tall, 140- to 150- pound white male with shoulder-length, greasy brown hair. On the night of the attack, he was wearing a large brown jacket, tattered jeans and worn tennis shoes, and was carrying a bright blue duffle bag.

If you see an individual that you believe was involved in the attack, call CPSO's emergency line at 503-725-4404. To report any other information, contact CPSO at 503-725-4407.

In case anybody was wondering CPSO officers are unarmed and under equiped they talked about getting Tasers a few years back but there was a left-wing uproar that stopped the idea cold.

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Autolycus
October 15, 2007, 05:48 PM
Well if the students must be disarmed its good that they disarmed their security. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

jerkyman45
October 15, 2007, 06:19 PM
Its the same here, our campus cops are unarmed. I think its funny, they are campus cops drving Interceptor Crown Vics, but they don't have a gun or tasers.

stephpd
October 15, 2007, 06:27 PM
Yes guns are dangerous thats why students and security don't have them.
But if someone shows up and starts shooting everyone wonders why it took so long for police to show up at the scene. Then they want all the guns in the world there.
I just wonder if those people ever think for themselves or are only capable of repeating what the 'news' tells them. Not much better then a parrot.:banghead:

DoubleTapDrew
October 15, 2007, 07:06 PM
Are you sure you can't carry at PSU? Most of the school districts have signs saying it's prohibited but it's not enforcable because it violates Oregon law. The Medford teacher is just the first person to actually take them to task on it (and I'm pretty sure they'll lose).

Rest assured, no matter what signs are posted in any public school in Oregon, no matter what lies are told to you by bureaucrats gorging themselves at the public trough, if you are a valid CHL holder you are completely within your rights to carry your defensive firearm on the grounds of any Oregon Public School. (http://www.oregonfirearms.org/LC%20opinion%20Stubbs/LC%20Opinion.pdf) (Adobe Reader Required)
Source: OFF (http://www.oregonfirearms.org/news/20011126gunsinps.html)

Jimmy Newman
October 15, 2007, 07:27 PM
Y'know, I have a hard time disagreeing with the notion of no guns on college campuses. I go to a major private university. I'm quite sure there are people here who are responsible enough to handle it (and would count myself among that number). There are also plenty of people who go out two or three times a week and get so drunk they can barely walk. Often this results in people ending up puking on the floor in the bathroom because they can't aim well enough to keep it in the toilet. I'm just as happy that those people can't have firearms. If they could, I sure as hell wouldn't be living on campus in a dorm. I've just seen too much stupid crap that people have done here to think it's a good idea to have it generally permissible.

We're also not allowed to have airsoft guns here anymore. Want to know why? Some drunk idiot was shooting pedestrians below his window a few years ago with one and managed to permanently blind an innocent passerby in one eye.

All that aside, eventually some college student somewhere will shoot someone else in the middle of the night while they're both drunk, and the college/university president who thought it would be a good idea to allow students ready access to firearms will be drawn and quartered and will never have another job anywhere in the academic world.

Anyone who wants to argue that the deaths of a bunch of teenaged/young adult idiots is a small price to pay for making sure everyone can have a gun all the time is free to do so. I am free to disagree.

Every college I know anything about has a student culture with values and behaviors that are diametrically opposed to safe and proper handling/possession of firearms.

Jimmie
October 15, 2007, 07:44 PM
I'm just as happy that those people can't have firearms. If they could, I sure as hell wouldn't be living on campus in a dorm.
This is a false premise, which invalidates the rest of your argument.

Why can't they have firearms? Because school policy says so? Remember when you were in 2nd grade and you asked, "Can I..." And your teacher said, "I don't know, can you?"

Your friends CAN have guns and WILL if they're so inclined, irrespective of what school policy dictates.

Jimmy Newman
October 15, 2007, 07:47 PM
Your post has a false premise which invalidates the rest of your argument.

You assume that everyone on campus will do whatever they want regardless of rules and consequences (in this case, immediate expulsion). This is at best a naive position. If this were the case, there would be no point in rules and they would not exist. It is entirely possible that there are a few people on campus who keep firearms in their rooms. There are vastly fewer than there would be if the rule didn't exist.

Jimmie
October 15, 2007, 07:48 PM
Was shooting pedestrians with an airsoft gun allowed by school policy?

edit: Additionally, guns are not prohibited at off-campus housing. Do you have drunken shooting sprees at those homes on a regular basis? One of the most prolific arguments against CCW was the "blood will flood the streets" theory. It turned out to be simply fear-mongering. None of it happened. People aren't as inherently irresponsible as some like to think.

Jimmy Newman
October 15, 2007, 08:03 PM
There's a distinct difference between prohibiting an act and prohibiting an item required to commit an act.

If you prohibit an act, then when one loses one's good judgment for whatever reason (i.e., one has had too much to drink), then one might go ahead and commit the act despite the prohibition.

If you prohibit an implement or implements required for the commission of an act, then in general one will not have the required items with which to commit said act while having a momentary lapse of good judgment. Thus, committing the act requires intentional misconduct rather than a temporary loss of good sense.

Prior to this event, possession of airsoft guns was not prohibited. Therefore, he had an airsoft gun. When he got drunk and felt like an idiot, he did something stupid and hurt someone. Now possession of airsoft guns is prohibited. There are still a number of people who have them, but the number is fewer and they are subject to confiscation and disciplinary action if they are found. The fact that fewer people have them means that people are less likely to do something stupid when they have momentary lapses of judgment.

In other words, the main reason I am worried about guns on campus is because of momentary lapses in judgment as a result of drinking or substance abuse. Prohibiting an act does little to prevent these dangers because of the nature of the violation - a momentary lapse in judgment in which one does not care about the rules or potential consequences of an action. However, prohibiting the implements necessary for commission of the act take violation (and hence the danger) out of the realm of a momentary lapse in judgment and into the realm of intentional misconduct.

In other words, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Jimmie
October 15, 2007, 08:05 PM
Ok. Then we'll compare prohibiting tangible items. Is alcohol allowed in your dorms?

DoubleTapDrew
October 15, 2007, 08:11 PM
eventually some college student somewhere will shoot someone else in the middle of the night while they're both drunk

The streets will run red with blood if states allow concealed carry also.

When I went to college there were a lot of people who had guns and there weren't any shootings, accidental or intentional. There were, however, people who fell off of balconies, got alcohol poisioning, got into fights, etc. Idiots will always find a way to hurt themselves or others, but they are removed from society if that happens.

Are you in favor of the states that outlaw concealed carry in bars?

ShooterMcGavin
October 15, 2007, 08:14 PM
...the college/university president who thought it would be a good idea to allow students ready access to firearms...
:rolleyes:
"...allow students ready access..." This sounds very similar to the anti-gun argument about allowing CCW-holding teachers to carry at a school. Notice how I said "allowing CCW-holding teachers..."? The anti-gun group quickly turns this into " Oh, so we are supposed to give guns to all the teachers?!?!".

No. It is not the university president who thought it was a good idea. It was the state who required the individual to reach a certain age, then to pass a background check, then to take a mandated course (some states), and then pay a fee, before the state issued a Carry License. Then, of course, the action of legally carrying a gun in accordance with the school's rules is up to those who make up the school's rules (maybe you'd say that is the job of the university president, etc.).

ShooterMcGavin
October 15, 2007, 08:16 PM
There's a distinct difference between prohibiting an act and prohibiting an item required to commit an act.
Apparently, access to cars is prohibited at your university???

Officers'Wife
October 15, 2007, 08:26 PM
Hmmm,

Well, since Purdue declared itself a "gun-free" campus there have been absolutely no shootings. Which sounds good until someone points out there weren't any shooting before it was a "gun-free" campus.

Oddly enough nobody wants to point out there are very few drugs on Purdue campus either. Most of the druggies cross the river to Lafayette at night and do their drugs on the east side of Riehl park. Come to think of it, the shootings are in Lafayette as well... Maybe if they banned drugs the violence would stop!

Selena

Jimmy Newman
October 15, 2007, 09:42 PM
When someone starts to argue (even tangentially) against my opinion, I tend to end up directly opposed to them regardless of my original position. I let myself get dragged away from my original point, and was arguing a position that doesn't really reflect my own opinions (I end up playing the devil's advocate a lot).

I do support responsible gun ownership and shall-issue concealed carry (and I have a concealed carry license). However, the second amendment doesn't require private institutions to allow firearms possession on their property. It is the decision of the private institution to allow or prohibit firearms possession. If you read the first line of my first post on the subject, I said that I have a hard time disagreeing with the decision that the schools have made. I didn't say that I was sure they are right.

I'm quite sure that in general people who make it to college are at least marginally responsible and not particularly minded to become criminals. I'm not worried about guns on campus because I think the guy next door will decide that he wants to shoot me and steal my TV. The problem is mainly the high level of short-term irresponsible behavior that I have encountered at every college I have personally visited or that my friends have attended. Maybe it wouldn't be as big a problem as I think it would be.

The one thing that I hadn't really particularly thought about is probably that the only people who actually cared enough to bring guns on campus would tend to be more responsible people, and the people that would be the biggest problem wouldn't even have guns. That argument (which none of you have actually made) has me on the fence on the subject. If every student on my campus had a gun in his or her room, I would be driving home right now and transferring to a new school. It's a terrifying prospect. Of course, that would not be the case, and thinking about it from that point of view, it would probably be fine.

With all that said, I'm just as glad that I won't be in college anymore if and when the colleges decide all the students can carry wherever they want.

Also, it IS a matter of allow/prohibit possession. The fact that the government is not allowed to infringe upon one's civil rights doesn't mean a private institution can't. If a university clearly states in their regulations that students are not allowed to possess firearms on campus, and the students are required to agree to and follow the regulations to attend, everything is perfectly legal in spite of the second amendment. They can't throw you in prison, but they can throw you out of the school.

It gets more complicated if you're talking about public school systems or colleges/universities. You'll note also that I said that I attend a private university. My arguments have generally been targeted in that direction.

What I actually think is REALLY stupid is that we're prohibited from having pepper spray. I can at least understand why they prohibit guns, whether I agree or not.

P.S. None of what I have said at any point in this thread (even when I was arguing beyond my own actual opinion) has anything to do with the school shootings that have happened over the years. I am perfectly well aware that anyone who decides they want to go on a killing spree will not be stopped by the fact that the rules say no.

Geronimo45
October 15, 2007, 10:02 PM
If liquor's the cause of trouble, ban the liquor, not the guns. Expel students if they've got a BAC above the legal driving limit... and I'm sure they could nail folks for underage drinking.

The one thing that I hadn't really particularly thought about is probably that the only people who actually cared enough to bring guns on campus would tend to be more responsible people, and the people that would be the biggest problem wouldn't even have guns.

That's exactly the way it is with CHL folk. They are considerably less likely to commit crimes than the rest of the population. The irresponsible people don't seem to want to go through the hassle of getting one.

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