[Ian11]

You've been selected to choose our next handgun to be issued to our Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard. Being the handgun expert that you are and for your "impartiality" ;) our Gov't trusts you to pick the best combination of reliability, durability, ease of training/transition for our soldiers, and overall combat worthiness. No XM9 trials part 2, no pressure from high rank officers/politicians, no quid pro quo with foreign countries, no influence from manufacturers. A heavy responsibility. Here's your chance.

*The handgun must be an automatic and it must be chambered for the 9mm NATO round for compatibility with our NATO allies.


edit:
*And yes, we know most of you want to "write in" 1911 .45 ACP. Pretty much fait accompli when you have any poll. But if its at all possible can you bring yourself to vote for one of these choices? Help me out a little ? :banghead:

[12-34hom]

Colt 1911 - 45acp.

End of thread.

12-34hom.

[Lone_Gunman]

I voted "other"... for the 1911.

[Jeff Timm]

The choices reflect only oversize pistols unsuitable to general carry.

This was the mistake the Armed Forces made in chosing the Barretta.

Back in the 1970s the West German (FRG) Police wrote up specs for a 9mm pistol that resulted in the Sig 225, H&K P9 and other compact pistols.

Geoff
Who thinks a little round like 9x19 should have a small launcher.

[Rottweiler]

Other 1911 .45 ACP

[444]

"our Gov't trusts you to pick the best combination of reliability, durability, ease of training/transition for our soldiers, and overall combat worthiness. No XM9 trials part 2, no pressure from high rank officers/politicians, no quid pro quo with foreign countries, no influence from manufacturers."

"it must be chambered for the 9mm NATO round for compatibility with our NATO allies."

See any contridictions there ?




I chose other; 1911
Why should the most powerful nation on earth, and the most powerful military ever fielded in history have to bow down to a bunch of also ran countries and use the handgun cartridge that they use ? Why is it that the country that supplies the most men, equipment, and money to NATO has to change to suit everybody else ? Let them change to the same cartridge we use. The .45 Automatic Colt Pistol.

[Rich357]

A Glock 10mm with a narrower grip than the G20 would be my choice. A reduced stagger magazine that holds 12 rounds rather than the 15 round of the regular G20. Or, if the G20 fits a large enough percentage of the troops, go with the G20.

If you must have a 9mm, go with the Glock 17.

Rich

[caz223]

I voted 226, but the 228 would be a better choice.

[jerryd]

Too bad the xperts pick out a weapon then force it on the troops instead of asking the troops !

[Quintin Likely]

I never really felt that bureaucrats and brass had any right to choose what weapons troops should be armed with.

That said, if I was in some unhospitable place and I needed something that'd work and work every time, it'd either be a Sig, a Glock, or even a <choke> USP. I voted for the P226.

[Coffee357]

I voted Glock 17. Simple to maintain and operate, reliable, inexpensive, and absolute parts interchangability. Off the list I am another one who thinks a fullsized pistol is not necessarily the best choice for our already overloaded troops. A G19, Sig 239 / 225, or even a S&W (gasp!) 6904 with spurred hammer would be a handier weapon.

Coffee

[flinch]

Ruger P 95 if you want Hi cap or the P 90 if you want an AMERICAN made gun with an AMERICAN caliber. Both are portable, durable, reliable and AMERICAN made by God. Thats my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Chris Rhines]

Jeff Timm and Coffee are right - none of the above guns is really ideal for a military service pistol. Too big, too bulky, too hard to handle, not really suited for military applications.

As I understand it, most military forces in the world issue rifles, machineguns, mortars, tube artillery, tanks, etc., for killing the enemy. Not handguns. A handgun is a poor fighting tool at best.

What does the military use handguns for, then?
- Backup weapons for vehicle crew members.
- Personal (concealed) weapons for headquarters staff, plainclothes MPs, various REMFs, soldiers out on leave (?), and other non-combat positions.
- Tokens of rank for officers (more common a practice than it should be.)
- Special operations.

We'll leave special operations soldiers out of the equation for now - they get whatever they need anyhow, and are less restricted by the need for logistical support.

For a backup weapon that can be concealed easily, I like the Kahr P9.
- Single-stack, small enough to be comfortable but large enough to shoot well.
- Easy to conceal.
- Durable and reliable.
- Fairly light and smooth trigger makes it easy to shoot.
- 9mm, which was part of the inital requirement.

- Chris

[rich'sguns]

My vote is for a 1911 .45 or a CZ-75B........

Two of the best in the world.

Regards

[9x19]

Glock... 7 different calibers, 7 different sizes... Nobody does it better.

[rugerfreak]

Ruger P-series

Solid-reliable performance---AMERICAN made for AMERICAN forces----at a price that won't break the tax payer's bank.

[CZF]

Heckler & Koch P2000. Light and compact. Based on a
proven design. This gun will be the gun to beat!

If you must have a 9mm, the P2000 sized guns are ideal.

Too bad CZ can't field something comparable. The CZ110
is about as good as they will try for.

[clem]

M1911 in .45 ACP, ninety-one years + as a top line combat/cop handgun!

[MarineTech]

Another vote for the 1911 .45ACP

[Boats]

We should dump the NATO 9mm requirement and bring back the M1911 .45ACP in updated form: (USMC MEU/SOC standard in factory form). 9mmFMJ just plain sucks. If the pistol in the hands of a ground pounder is to fight to an available rifle or such, the pistol ought be able to be capable of killing the enemy in the most efficient manner available. That bill ain't filled by 9mm FMJ from any experience I have ever read about or heard.

I believe you will find that most of the people who voted "Other/1911" are veterans who have experience with both the M1911 and the Berettas and SIGs that replaced it. The 9mm suffers in comparison to these folks, I know it does for me. 9mm FMJ inspires about as much confidence in me as I am sure the .38S&W did in the Marines during the Moro uprising--the conflict that led to the .45ACP's development. Has something changed in the 100 or so years since the Phillipines uprising that suddenly makes an inadequate cartridge the ideal pistol round merely because one can now have a lot of them at one time?

If I had to absolutely vote for a popgun, my choice still isn't on the list: The CZ P01.

[VHinch]

Something that no one's mentioned yet is that the DOD won't approve a sidearm without an external safety, which eliminates the Glock from the start.

Vance

[Dorian]

We should dump the NATO 9mm requirement and bring back the M1911 .45ACP in updated form

My vote is for the USP fullsize .45. It holds 4-5 more rounds of .45 ammo than the 1911, is just as, if not moreso, reliable and durable.

But given the list options, I went for the USP 9mm fullsize. As durable and reliable as a gun can get.

[BenW]

Other - 1911, 45ACP.

[Boats]

Something that no one's mentioned yet is that the DOD won't approve a sidearm without an external safety, which eliminates the Glock from the start.



That is not true as demonstrated by the adoption of the SIG 228 as the M11, which has no external safety. The ex-safety was only "desireable." What was required was either an external hammer, or if striker fired like the P7, which was in the trials at one point, an external firing pin indicator. The Glock's lack of both of these is what would disqualify it.

Besides, the thread starter says we're doing an "off-the-shelf" procurement without any standards evidently other than the ridiculous 9mm FMJ chambering.

[ambidextrous1]

OTHER: Single stack .45, American made by an American firm; with grip safety. Guess what I have in mind?

As for our allies, show them the ballistics of the .45 ACP vs: 9MM. Advise them that we'd like to see them adopt the caliber we have chosen. Explain that it would be helpful if we decide to involve ourselves again in European military affairs. Remind them, as the President has said in another context, "Either you're with us or you're against us".

If they're against us, commonality of sidearm ammunition isn't so important.

:fire:

[4v50 Gary]

I'm an old fogie I guess. 1911A1 with some modifications. Straight mainspring housing (better for smaller hands), better sights (high profile, night sights), ambidextrious safety (for the lefties out there) and Pachmayrs.

[10-Ring]

I voted USP 9.

[Mike Irwin]

Given the dubious utility of a handgun in military service, I'd say drop the gun entirely, and give everyone M4s.

[Boats]

Given the dubious utility of a handgun in military service, I'd say drop the gun entirely, and give everyone M4s.

Isn't that what the M1 Carbine was all about? Frankly, despite attempts to rid the battlefield of the pistol, it soldiers on. It is used offensively, defensively, for jobs where continually being out of reach of the rifle or having to constantly resling it is a problem, and sometimes it is just a security blanket.

Still, the pistol is a very serious combat arm. Whether house clearing, cave and tunnel clearing, or other CQB situations where space or tactical movement is a problem like in boarding ships (where, in my own experience, I preferred an M1911 to anything else in our small arms lockers quite frankly), silenced use offensively, and other employments, the pistol remains very viable.

If they were so lacking in utility, why haven't Delta, the SEALS, MEU/SOC, tankers, pilots, MPs, sailors, and others given up on them yet? The "battlefield" is not always the one where the M4/M16 would be the best choice. Heck, the shotgun still soldiers on for certain applications despite its limited range. So why do a lot of soldiers who would not normally be issued a pistol sometimes make extraordinary attempts to get one? Why are they the most common small arm in general use in the Navy? Why did Marines houseclearing in Iraq demand more pistols in front line units? Because you don't always get to choose where your enemy will be and no one weapon can cover every contingency.

Despite the advent of subguns, PDWs and the like, the pistol persists. The issue has probably been definitively settled. Portable lethality in a small package is hard, if not impossible, to replace. It is likely that since it hasn't been replaced by now, the handgun never will be by anything that fires through chemical reaction.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's Ian11- And Other's

Thanks for the selection!:D My choice for the next military
sidearm goes to the 9m/m SIG-Sauer P226; as it
should have been chosen in the first place!:) :uhoh:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Thumper]

Other/1911

[txgolfer45]

Ok, if DOD doesn't allow handguns without an external safety, then get the Glock 17 with the Cominelli safety. I voted Glock 17 due to nato 9mm compatibility. But a G21, G22, G23 or G19 would work too!

Scott

[Martini13]

How about a 1911 in 9MM, Meets everyones desires for the 1911, and is 9MM :evil: :evil: This is a joke...don't flame me.:neener: :neener:

[Mike Irwin]

Boats,

No, the M1 Carbine was not designed as a complete replacement for the handgun, nor was it originally intended to be used as a front-line weapon. It was to be issued to those who jobs required them to be armed, but who might find a full-sized firearm to be more of a hinderance than a help -- artillery, truckers, etc.

You'll note that I never said that the handgun was lacking in utility.

Nor is it useful to compare the requirements of highly specialized troops such as the SEALS, Delta Force, etc., with rank & file.

[MJRW]

I'm just picturing Glocks in the hands of some of the 4-years-and-out army, air force, marine, and navy folk I have met, known, and seen and then mulitiplying that by N soldiers. Then figuring that most of the ones I have come across at least had a mild interest in handguns whereas many other military folk do not (GI bill anyone?). I just smell catastrophe.

[Boats]

Be fair to me Mike, "dubious utility" is about as close to "no utility" as one can come. Also, I didn't just cite the needs and/or uses of Special Forces either. For some applications of force, especially CQB situations, no matter who is tapped to provide the force, the pistol is highly useful.

You did say you'd "give everybody M4s." Perhaps you were thinking for infantry only? The Navy and Coasties will certainly always have theirs, so will medics and corpsmen, as will pilots in all services. Even if the combat worthiness of the previous services and professions is deemed lacking to base pistol procurement upon, it is the truth that the front-line Marines in Iraq were demanding more pistols in future urbanized theaters for the point man through the doors based on their experiences going house-to-house in the PG War II.

[Ian11]

During the extensive coverage of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" (TV/Print) I saw a lot of our soldiers with their M9's drawn. Whether they were on the streets or clearing a building the handgun seemed to be used more often than I ever thought it would be. Those pictures convinced me that the handgun has gained more prominence in the age of today's modern urban warfare.

.....And its pretty obvious many of our fellow forumites are quite stubborn and some quite vitriolic about their 1911's being passed up, despite the parameters given in this poll. Basically, the poll was asking if the XM9 trials were held today and you had final say which would you pick? It was my fault I did not make it clear enough (I guess).

.....Personally, I'd rather see our troops armed with something other than a 9mm because only FMJ loads are allowed. Or allow our troops to load their Berettas with hollowpoints. But thats neither here nor there. I think this is the political reality of our times so I doubt we'll see our troops being armed with anything else than a 9mm pistol loaded with NATO ball ammo. (For many of the same reasons the U.S. isn't going to abandon the 5.56mm NATO round anytime soon.) I will admit I am a fan of both rounds. But I believe I am simply expressing the reality of the situation and not about whats right or wrong for our troops or trying to express any particular bias. Simply, if our military were to choose a new handgun I believe these are the ones they'd choose from.

[12-34hom]

Glock , nobody does it better.... = yawn

You're kidding; right??

12-34hom.

[firestar]

They have it right now! The Beretta 92fs. There really is no gun on the list that out preforms it to any noticable degree. I am assuming that we are going to have a hi-cap double stack mag with a DA trigger sidearm. The Sig would be a good choice also but I'm not sure if Glocks are the right gun for people that are not that used to having guns.

Most service men and women are not gun nuts like us.:D They might shoot themselves or others with that Glock trigger. Also there is no second strike capability and I think that is important when shooting military ammo. I have had some hard primers that required more than one pull of the trigger useing military ammo.

No one is ever happy with what they have but the Beretta is a good gun. Is it better than a 1911? Who knows? They are so different that it is hard to compare. Would you rather have an empty 1911 in .45acp or a Beretta M9 with 7-8 shots left in the mag?:D

[cool45auto]

Oh yeah, I'll second that Beretta vote!

[Boats]

No one is ever happy with what they have but the Beretta is a good gun. Is it better than a 1911? Who knows? They are so different that it is hard to compare. Would you rather have an empty 1911 in .45acp or a Beretta M9 with 7-8 shots left in the mag?

With that Berreta, or any Wondernine in this list, you'd best have 7-8 shots left in the mag 'cuz you're gonna have to shoot everyone you hit at least one more time each before they get to you.:D

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

Even though it wouldn't have the "safety" requirements, I'd go with the Glock. Less parts, durable, and simple.

[varoadking]

So whom would you have select these weapons - Gomer and Duke? :neener:

[Arkady]

If you're dropping the Beretta (it isn't my favorite, but few people will argue that it isn't functional), and wish to keep a 9mm, then i vote for the SIG P226/P228.

[Lancel]

With the parameters listed, just keep the M9 as is.

Although I'm a fan of both 10 mm and Glocks there's such a wide variety of military (doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc.) who are assigned a pistol that decocking levers and smaller grips are good ideas.

But then like Mike Irwin said, "... give everyone M4s.":

The M4 works great with an assault sling. Slung muzzle down across the back when working with your hands it's out of the way yet quick to draw.

Larry

[only1asterisk]

Somewhere outside of Bossier City, LA


B-52 Pilot to Crew Chief: " What the **** is that?"

Chief "It's your new gun rack Major, holds half a dozen M-4's with room for a spare.

Pilot: Does it come with a Confederate battle flag, or horn that plays Dixie?

Chief: "No sir, but we scored you an old CB and some kick *** mudflaps!"


Handguns (both issue, and unoffical) will be with the military for a long time.

My pick, the USP.



David

[faustulus]

Which one would be the cheapest?

[WT]

Other - Colt 1911A1 .45ACP

[Lancel]

only1asterisk:B-52 Pilot to Crew Chief: " What the **** is that?:DLOL:D


Or there could be an individual rack like other vehicle operators, accessible for egress or as needed. But handguns are certainly easier to wear. :)

Larry

[Sam C]

I voted for other, like in 1911!
Sam:)

[Andrew Wyatt]

there should be three service handguns, one, a compact or subcompact auto or revolver in 9mm that's designed for pocket carry that's issued to every combat arms person. the cecond is a 1911 with light rails and proper sights and all that that gets issued to the special forces guys, or anyone who can qualify to special forces standards.

the other, is a full size crunchenticker holster pistol that's used as a badge of office for officers.

[Mike Irwin]

Boats, be fair to me, and to everyone else...

Dubious means doubtful or questionable, which by its very nature, leaves the question open to discussion.

No means, well, no. There's no leeway.

They're not the same thing, nor are they necessarily close.

But you're right, some categories of users will always need a handgun, such as pilots, simply because there's no place to put the larger firearm if you have to eject.

[9x19]

Sam C,

I voted for other, like in 1911!

You voted in 1911?!

Wow!!! :D

[s&w 24]

I think that they would do the world a favor by going back to a revolver for genral issue and a auto for limited issue. If they had consern over ammo compatability issue a 45 acp revo and auto but I would stear them to 44 special and 40 S&W

revolver 1st pick: S&W 696
revolver 2nd pick: taurus tracker in 45 acp

auto 1st pick : glock 22
auto 2nd pick: the new glock 45 auto ( 37?)

we are talking FMJ bullets here so all the wound channel consists of is the crush cavity unless you have a tumbling bullet so your back to Elmer Kieth rules of bullet constuction.

[mephisto]

CZ-97!!!

[Akurat]

Nothing wrong with the Beretta.

Throw your [name brand pistol here] out the window on the freeway a couple times, then drop it in the ocean...come back and fish it out in about a week. Use it around the house for those small jobs...hammering nails...breaking open crab legs...knocking through drywall. Clean it(again and again and again......). Thats about what condition the M9's that I've handled (dozens) are in. But boy do we keep them CLEAN! :rolleyes:

[New_comer]

What 10-Ring said... ;)

[Johnny Guest]

1. Other: M1911A1

2. Other: Kahr P9. As stated above - -Light weight, low bulk, single stack 9mm. (Or maybe something like the Kel Tec P11??) It could be carried in an exposed belt holster and be a lot more effective than the "status symbol" Euro pocket pistols, OR in an approved concealable belt or pocket holster. TOO concealable, you say? The military controls the lives of soldiers at more basic levels than this. Make it a UCMJ criminal offense to carry/use the pistol in an unauthorized manner. And, I know that many 1911s and M9s have been carried concealed against orders. Why not make convenient, light weight carry, concecaled or exposed, part of the authorized TOE?

Best,
Johnny

[Sean Smith]

The ideal general-purpose service pistol hasn't been created yet. And I doubt anyone will bother. But here goes...

1. Given the considerable female proportion of the forces, and their (on average) smaller hands than men, the gun should be a single-stack 9x19mm gun with a polymer frame, metal magazines, and a short trigger reach. 10+1 is plenty of shots.

2. Given that handgun training will never be a priority, it needs to have a manual safety and a conspicuous loaded chamber indicator. Yes, those are crutches. But crutches can be handy if you can barely walk.

3. Give it a 4" barrel and enough grip for a full hand to hold it. Polymer frame with a grippy texture and good ergonomic shape, slide and small parts with some sort of Tennifer-esque hostile environment finish.

4. Trigger mechanism... I'd give it a DAO type of trigger mechanism, say a fairly heavy but smooth 8 pound pull, but not a long reach like most DA semi-autos or revolvers. Consistent trigger pull = easier to train to shoot with limited trigger time, and as much as I personally like a 4 pound single-action trigger, I don't think you want Private Joe Marginally Handgun Trained with one.

5. Give it good sights, easy-to-reach and positive controls, and you'd be in business. Obviously it would have to be designed for a very high degree of durability and reliability, but that goes without saying. Give special attention to coming up with an indestructible extractor design, huge ejection port, and maybe even flute the chamber like a Schuemann AET barrel.

OK, enough of my insanity, back to your regularly scheduled gun debate already in progress... :D

[Erik]

"And yes, we know most of you want to "write in" 1911 .45 ACP."

Yep, and for good reason.

:p

[Ian11]

Yes Erik,

Tell us the reason. Educate us. We'd love to hear it again and again and again and again and again.....................;) No, one more time please.:p

[Dr.Rob]

BHP.

I'm sure we could get them cheap, they are battle proven, reliable, smaller than the Beretta 92 but can have the same capacity. Field strips faster than a 1911, capable of being made all over the world (Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Bulgaria, Israel, Hungary, japan, also made here)

The Glock's lack of an external safety has always bugged me. It's fine in a hard shell holster but unsafe loaded in some GI's pocket (which you can bet loaded pistols end up in pockets)

[.45Ruger]

I would go with the Ruger P95 simply because it is economical, user friendly, reliable, duarble and its American Made.

[Majic]

I voted other for the sheer fact that a larger caliber is needed. Be it .40 , .45, or a newly designed big bore cartridge. While some may point out the merits of the 9mm, in a FMJ format it lacks. The bigger the hole the quicker the results.

[RustyHammer]

Colt 1911

[Powderman]

Why not the best of both worlds?

The 1911, in a hi-cap configuration, with the b-tail safety, chambered for .45 ACP in a 185 grain FMJ configuration, with +P loads in a compansated pistol. Or, as another poster put it so well:

Ruger P 95 if you want Hi cap or the P 90 if you want an AMERICAN made gun with an AMERICAN caliber. Both are portable, durable, reliable and AMERICAN made by God.

Why go foreign made at all?

[Bobarino]

i voted H&K, because i would want the best. i think its pretty disgusting that so many people are voting "other" and "other" meaning 1911. with all the advancements in technology and firearms there are still closed minded people screaming 1911. would you really want to send your troops into battle with a single action, 7+1, 90 year old design? why would you do that to them? wouldn't you want them to have an ADVANTAGE over their enemies? meaning high capacity, simple to operate, more tolerant to adverse condidtions, and quicker into action. i know yo'll say that a cocked and locked 1911 is very fast but lets get real. the military will not likely allow cocked and locked carry. durring WWII, 1911's were carried on an empty chamber! even it was chambered, the hammer was down. are you going to ask your enemy to hold on for second while you chamber a round? or cock the hammer? i want a gun that works like a disposable camera. point and shoot. in all reality the full size Glock .45 would make a great military sidearm. i agree that the 9mm is anemic in FMJ configuration especially in combat. the 1911 is just a DUMB idea for the current military sidearm given all the available options today.

Bobby

[Sean Smith]

would you really want to send your troops into battle with a single action, 7+1, 90 year old design?

Apparently Delta and MEUSOC would say "yes." But what would they know? They only kill foreigners for a living. :neener:

i voted H&K, because i would want the best.

Awwww, that's so cute! What's next, "my dad can beat up your dad?"

:evil:

[Bobarino]

Sean,

you seem to feel the need to insult my opinions. why is that? i like HK. i think they make the best firearms out there. are you so insecure that you must insult me becuase of that?

delta uses 1911's. SEAL's use HK. big deal. a 1911 or whatever pistol they want for that matter is just fine in the hands of a person highly trained with a handgun. but we're talking Private Joe Anyone here, at the ripe ol' age of 19 or 20 with just enough training that he won't shoot his foot off. that is the wrong place for a 1911. simple, safe, reliable, and effective are traits that a modern sidearm should have. 1911 just don't fit the bill.

Bobby

[Ian11]

Bobarino,

I'm gonna have to side with Sean on this one although NOT his attitude. The 1911 is a viable sidearm for modern combat and it will continue to be until something completely revolutionary in firearms technology comes along. Many modern handguns do have an advatange as far as capacity goes. But a cocked and locked 1911 or BHP in the hands of someone who is properly trained (Delta/MEU/SAS) is a highly effective sidearm. That is not to say a SEAL or an SAS operator with their DA/SA SIG P226's (ahem ;) )couldn't be just as deadly. (Of course our Navy SEALs and the British SAS are known to be the best) :neener:

Conversely, us mortals are equally well served by our 1911's, Glocks, Berettas, H&K's, and SIGs as long as we modify our training specific to that pistol. Every handgun has its faults. That's why we practice to overcome them. Furthermore, the 1911 is known as one of the most reliable handguns under adverse conditions and has set the benchmark for all current military autos. 1911's are also known as one of the most durable handguns in the world as well.

A gun with an active safety "may" prevent a negligent discharge but someone that "negligent" or unfamiliar with their weapon probably will forget to decock or flick off the safety when they need to. We can't try to out-think stupidity.

I prefer Glocks and SIG autos. But I gotta give the grand ole 1911 its props.

[DWS1117]

would you really want to send your troops into battle with a single action, 7+1, 90 year old design?

Just because the design is old does not mean that it is obsolete. 90+ years old, when your USP reaches 90 well talk.

HK and any of the other choices would fine weapons in the hands of our soldiers when trained to use that weapon properly.

That said, my vote is 1911.

[Ian11]

Oh, by the way when I meant "Other" in the poll it had to be a gun in 9mm NATO chambering as stated in the beginning. :rolleyes: If you meant 1911 chambered in 9mm that's fine. But if you meant 1911 in .45 ACP........well, the Gov't has fired you from your job because it was obvious you couldn't take simple directions. The Gov't has decided to issue our troops Lorcins and High Points instead.

Good going!!!!!:neener::what:

[venom600]

Something that no one's mentioned yet is that the DOD won't approve a sidearm without an external safety, which eliminates the Glock from the start.

And the P99......bummer. Two damn fine handguns.

--Ben

[Akurat]

I think its unfortunate that so many 1911 fanatics chose to vote when the poll was specifically aimed towards a 9mm pistol. He even went the extra mile and requested that this not be done...obviously many intentionally ignored that request.

C'mon..:rolleyes:

The 1911 is a great platform. I enjoy shooting mine as do many. But its long gone as a general issue sidearm(rightfully)...get over it. Staying true to it is fine, but don't ruin an otherwise good poll to try and force your point.

[Caliburn]

If it has to be 9mm :rolleyes: you can take out my Other (1911) vote and put it in the Ruger box. They're solid, reliable, relatively inexpensive, and we'll keep that Pentagon money over here where it can do some good. Who owns S&W these days, still the Brits? The Springfield XDs would be good but let's give them a few more years to make sure they're up to years of hard wear and abuse.

[Border]

CZ75B. Best 9 for the money. I for one care about cost right after reliability-particularly for the military! With the right ammo the 9 is more than deadly with more rounds to boot!

[Sean Smith]

you seem to feel the need to insult my opinions. why is that?

You seem to feelt the need to insult alot of other people's opinions. Why is that? :rolleyes:

To refresh your memory:

i think its pretty disgusting that so many people are voting "other" and "other" meaning 1911.

closed minded people screaming 1911

You expect me to feel bad for (mildly) mocking you, complete with little happy smiley faces, after you insulted a whole boatload of people in one shot? Suuuure... I'll get right on it. Hint: deranged anti-1911 posts don't make you look any smarter than guys making deranged pro-1911 posts, especially when you are counter-factual in places.

Enough of this silliness.

[valnar]

I say a S&W 629. If the troops can't handle the recoil of a .44 Magnum, then f*ck them. Get out of the Army. ;) :D

-Robert

[axeman_g]

HIPOWER

Only because of what everyone here is saying.

It is a very serviceable weapon, hi cap (13, 15, 17 or 20+) mags abound. It is very cheap to get made. It is easy to service, great size for small to large hands, longer barrel for sight radius will make it more accurate. It is 9mm, handles anything you throw at it, has ambi safety, will fit current m12 holsters, wont have to procure new holsters.

FN versions can be made in belgium, partner with new LMGs in service now. Sold and serviced out of FN USA ofice in S. Carolina.

everyone complains about the beretta being to large (it is), the 1911 being to old or hard to shoot (it isn't) and the glock being to liable to be misused (it will). why not expect perfection in the form of FNHP.

[Bobarino]

Sean,


point taken. perhaps i was too harsh on the pro 1911 folks, and if i offended anyone then please accept my appologies. i do not intend to flame the people or the gun.

i still feel that its slightly pathetic that some folks can't get away from their beloved 1911's long enough to participate in a fictional poll that obviously does not include them on purpose. there are some that more or less, deny the usefullness of anything that is not a 1911. i think that is closed minded. and closed minded people bug me.

its like taking the Pepsi challenge and choosing Gatorade because its your favorite. that wasn't the question. the question is not "what's you favorite firearm?" the question is "which one of the following firearms.......?" and it does not include the 1911. what's so hard to understand about that?

i didn't mean to start a urinating contest with you or anyone else.

all that being said, i'm sticking with the H&K USP becuase i still believe its the best.

take care.

Bobby

[krept]

Anyone know of ballistics involving .45 vs 9mm FMJs? I thought they were pretty close to each other.

My only pistol is a USP .45, but if I went to 'war' I might want a cartridge w/ a bullet that penetrates light armor or cover better, like the 9mm NATO loading.

re: the 1911. I think we can agree that the 1911 is at it's best in condition 1. I think that even if worn in a flap holster, the potential for grit and grime to get into the action is much higher when worn this way, especially in places like Iraq. So after training all the time in condition 1, would you keep it that way in the desert boonies? Would you carry Condition 3 only in that situation? If so, wouldn't this screw up your training? Or would you just insist that everyone train drawing from condition 3 from the getgo?

I personally think that the 9mm is the best cartridge "para bellum" for many reasons. The platforms I would be perfectly fine with in no particular order...

USPc
SIG P228
G19.

If it came down to the nitty gritty, I would probably go with a Glock (with a plug for the space behind the magwell) because they are equally as effective as the others, but probably less expensive and more simple. May not be the 'highest quality' but they are certainly 'good enough.' If a manual safety is required, USPc. If, as someone mentioned, it either has to be hammer fired or striker w/safety I think SIG would be the way to go.


Also... I think a pistol is an absolute necessity. Sometimes the primary CAN go down (sometimes with unfortunate frequency) and it might be a little trickier to fix than eject magazine --> cycle action --> insert fresh magazine. Other points made re: CQB usage underscore the need.

FWIW I think I voted for the XD9 because it seemed like a fun choice.

[Leibster]

I voted Springfield XD9. I've had two of them so far, with over 10,000 rounds in one, and over 14,000 rounds in the other, with no reliablity problems.

Its trigger is very crisp, its grip angle is identical to a 1911, and in general, it is a very easy gun with which to hit one's target. It's high capacity (17 rounds), light weight and tough as hell.

Adding to it's soldier friendliness would be its grip safety, loaded chamber indicator, and cocked indicator.

My two cents.

--Leibster

[tsenn]

They already have it to a certain degree. I think the SIG P228 would be the best choice. Compact like it should be and reliable.

[clubsoda22]

quote: Something that no one's mentioned yet is that the DOD won't approve a sidearm without an external safety, which eliminates the Glock from the start.

Yeah, like someone else said, no external hammer or striker indicator either. This is why I voted for the SA XD. 2 user operated safeties as opposed to 1 on the glock and a visual and felt loaded chamber and striker position indicator. Also, it's accuracy I found to be on par if not better than the glocks. There will also be a .45 version available soon. Lack of a "click on" safety is completely irrelevent as you are supposed to carry in condition 3 in the armed forces anyway (doubt that happens often though)

[Dorian]

Just as a question....

I chose fullsize USP .45 for very practical and logical reasons.(to me at least)

Why would you want a 1911 over a USP .45 when you can get many of the features OF a 1911 on the USP.... and some

You CAN carry the USP cocked and locked(for the 1911 guys)

You CAN carry the USP in double action mode without the saftey on(how I carry daily)

The USP is built on the MK23 platform, and it hasn't been preforming for 90+ years, but it's nearing 10 years. And I've never heard gripes on the USP any bettter or worse than any other pistol. And in fact, it is, in my experience, the most reliable pistol on the market.

One of my final and main decisions is this.... You get five more rounds of .45 in the USP. I think that is a VERY valuable part of the USP.

All that said... It should be obvious that I love my USPs :) I love my 1911s as well and have the utmost amount of respect for them. But that 5 extra rounds combined with a postol that is just as, if not more, reliable is so much more.... well logical to me.

I do want feedback on this. I didn't post this to knock on the 1911. But I want to hear why you guys would choose the 1911 over the USP.

I've posted my part, now you post yours so that I can debate in favor of mine! Or maybe you might just convince me that your part is reasonable and acceptable.(Yes I'm actually open minded!)

/exhale

[BenW]

I think its unfortunate that so many 1911 fanatics chose to vote when the poll was specifically aimed towards a 9mm pistol. He even went the extra mile and requested that this not be done...obviously many intentionally ignored that request.
Either that or posted before that request was made via an edit. I like 1911s. So sue me. There must be something to the design if so many people are getting defensive that it's mentioned. People need to take a deep breath -- a month from now this poll will be completely forgotten.

[444]

I don't dispute anything you say. BUT, to me, the American military should be supplied with equipment and weapons designed and built by Americans. And I am not talking about just building a plant here. I am talking about an American company. Our military budget is huge. I think that money should be spent with American companies, employing American workers.

[Ian11]

BenW,

I made the edit right after the first response (see dates and times) and people still continued to "write-in" the 1911 invariably in .45 ACP.

If there was another poll like this and the choices had to be in .45 ACP; it'd be like people trying to force their 9mm, .40, .357 SIG, or 10mm into the discussion. From the selections in this poll and my admonition (nay, I was pleading) wasn't it obvious this was a contest between 9mm pistols? And my reactions weren't "defensive". I was merely trying to defend the integrity of this poll.

Will this poll be soon forgotten? You bet. But this lack of communication and the forcing of opinions on others is something we constantly see on THR.

[seeker_two]

Ruger or SIG...

As long as it's in DAO...

[BenW]

And my reactions weren't "defensive". I was merely trying to defend the integrity of this poll.

Ian -- My "defensive" remark was not aimed at you. You clarified your poll in the edit and that's what edits are for. You could change the direction of the whole darn poll if you wanted, since you're the one who started it. My comments were aimed at words like "disgusting" and "fanatics" being tossed about.

FWIW, If I created a poll aimed at .45s and people threw their opinions about other calibers in, I wouldn't care. It's their opinion and maybe they just don't like .45s.

[krept]

Anyone know of ballistics involving .45 vs 9mm FMJs? I thought they were pretty close to each other.

I thought they were close to each other as well... ;) but that the .45 does not have a much penetration as the 9mm FMJ.


I do want feedback on this. I didn't post this to knock on the 1911. But I want to hear why you guys would choose the 1911 over the USP

Dorian... I might be qualified to answer because I grew up with my father's 1911A1, ended up buying a USP and am thinking about going back to the 1911. (caveat - these are my OPINIONS only)

First off, I think the 'correct' way to fire a pistol that has a manual safety lever like the 1911 and USP is with a high thumbs grip. Not only will this ensure the safety is disengaged, but it will keep your grip nice and high so as to minimize muzzle flip. The 'hump' above the backstrap on the USP hinders the high grip, in my opinion.

Secondly, the double stack magazine is a monster girth-wise. I can barely reach the trigger in DA to get a solid grip - it's really close and I have a fairly large hand. Needless to say, it does not fit my wife and some of my friend's hands either... so it probably wouldn't be a good choice for the average soldier. When you factor the grip width into the equasion with the aforementioned high thumbs grip the pistol gets a little clumsy for me. On a 1911, you can slimline it to fit smaller hands.

Thirdly, might not be a big deal in 'war' but the reset of the USP trigger is a big turd. A month ago I rented a G30 and a stock 1911 to shoot side by side with my USP. All had relatively the same accurace @ 10 yards, but I actually short stroked the trigger of the USP a couple times because it was so long. After doing this, I found I was actually completely removing my finger off of the trigger to ensure it reset properly.

Fourth, I think that the Variant 1 on the USP is too complicated for the 'average soldier.' Is it decocked and the safety on? Or is the safety off? Maybe if they refined the variant to either having a decocker ala SIG or safety-only like the 1911 (but able to fire in DA) I think it would be better. Plus, if you accidentally ride the safety a little into the decocker function, some have said that the weapon will not fire.

I could equally sing praises about the USP and it's fine points but I think it has been covered a lot before :D (notice I picked the USPc as a finalist above and not a 1911).

What does all this mean?

I personally think that the 1911 is a weapon meant for an expert and should not be issued to the average soldier, much like M16s are issued to troops instead of the SAWs. I also think carrying in condition 3 is a detraction from the 1911...

I'm thinking that many of the people that chose the 1911 selected them because they are proficient with them and know how effective a CQB weapon they are. But I also wonder... didn't the military's qualification scores increase with the adoption of the 9mm? It's pretty difficult to argue with that...

And I believe that apples to apples (fmj vs fmj) the 9mm is close enough in terms of "stopping power" to the .45. Enough so that when the higher capacity/lower recoil of the 9mm is factored in I think it makes a great choice for an army.

Now, my preference is .45, but if I had to consider new shooters with smaller wrists, I don't think I'd mind a 9mm.

for what it's worth...

cheers

[Dorian]

ended up buying a USP and am thinking about going back to the 1911

I'll be glad to take the USP off your hands if you decide to go back to the 1911 :)

You made some very good points, I think.

I haven't shot the beretta in a long while, but isn't it a decocker/saftey too?

And what about the USP size as compared to the beretta instead of the 1911?

OHH LOOK AT ME I GOT OFF MY OWN TOPIC! I was supposed to be comparing the USP to the 1911, NOT the Beretta!

Ok I give in you guys win!

*sobs*