[glockman19]

If you think it won't happen to you You're wrong. First you thought Registration wouldn't happen, then The AWB, Then microstamping, next semi auto, slowly they will come for your guns...All of them.

Watch the video and see what has happened in Britan & Australia. Austalia confiscated all of their guns in 2 weeks.

"If the chineese came to the beach and each took only one grain of sand by the time they left the beach would be gone."

It can happen ans is slowly happening. I hope we notice before it's all gone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkS2BRoCd2I&NR=1

[Zundfolge]

Honestly I don't believe that if every gun owner in America dedicated their entire lives 24/7/365 to the cause of RKBA that we'll win in the end.

We're not going to win within the system ... and the old idea of "refreshing the tree of liberty" ... well that notion has been unrealistic since the 1860s (maybe prior to 1934 there would have been a slight chance ...maybe ... but back then things weren't bad enough).

I seriously doubt the GOP is going to take back the house or the senate ... the whitehouse is going to go to an anti-gunner regardless of which party wins, and while a GOP victory is not a guarantee of protection, a Democrat victory IS a guarantee of more gun control.

We're just fighting a hopeless battle against the inevitable ... thank God the wife and I can't have kids :(



EDIT
Damn ... sorry ... didn't mean to come off so gloom and doom :p

[glockman19]

Damn ... sorry ... didn't mean to come off so gloom and doom
I was hoping to hear some optimistic points of view. I guess my great uncle might be right when he said in my generation we had a better than 50% chance of experiencing a Revolution.

It's almost as if life is imitating art in that the Republic, turned into the Empire and the Dark Side took over, (Star Wars).

[Zundfolge]

I guess this microstamping thing feels a little bit like Order 66 to me :p But more realistically I expect President Hillary or Rudy will issue Order 66.


I need to cheer up ... spend a day at the range ... maybe come back refreshed a bit.

FWIW I don't expect we'll see another revolution in my lifetime (I'm in my mid 30s) ... I also don't expect to see the antis win in that time either ... things will tug back and forth for a while, then eventually someday they'll win, then a couple generations later (assuming technology and the coming police state don't prevent it) we'll see some sort of "correction".

[JohnKSa]

Actually the CCW movement has done a lot for gun rights. It's always easier to lose ground than it is to gain ground, but there have been some gains made over the last decade or so.

[ilbob]

there are a lot of gains that have been made, and a few loses here and there.

it may turn out that a lot more rides on dc v. heller than one would want.

or not.

these things go back and forth like a lot of political footballs.

as long as the dems and libs don't have complete control of congress and the white house, we can probably survive without additional damage, but we won't go forward unless we can take the house, senate, and presidency.

quite frankly, those who think libertarians and democrats are our friends in this are just deluded. 3rd parties just siphon off votes from candidates who could actually win, and democrats will be democrats.

[ZeSpectre]

Here's the weird thing.

Every time I wind up someplace where the anti's are demonstrating...they look like fools and act like temperamental schoolkids.

Every time I see them demonstrate or protest they are far outnumbered by either pro's or neutrals.

Pro-Rights gains keep getting made (on the local level) by grassroots organizations like the VCDL.

BUT

CA microstamping passes and every damn time I see a protest in the news it's always filmed/edited so that it look like there are 1,000,000 "reasonable" anti's all well coordinated and just owning every event they show up at.

I swear if we can't find a way to own the media we're doomed because the "court of public opinion" will have already been influenced no matter what we do. I think Tom Gresham has it absolutely right on his "gun talk" show. Any time we see/hear the media giving misinformation or outright lies, we MUST call them on it. Call the stations and set 'em straight, write OpEd articles and so forth. As Gresham says "A lie left standing becomes the truth".

[esq_stu]

I'm not as pessimistic as many others posting here.

There's a reason prohibition failed. Though some countries ban guns outright, others will find it far more difficult to do so, either because they culturally or legally have far higher hurdles. Some regulations will fail, and this one may have too many holes to succeed.

In CA, the regulatory climate is notoriously left wing, and things get banned that libertarians abhor. In Red states, other things get regulated in ways that libertarians abhor. In some states, RKBA is getting stronger, not weaker. All is not lost.

Keep on fighting the good fight.

[romma]

I really like those "When All Else Fails Vote From The Rooftops" T-shirts!

http://www.cafepress.com/rooftops

It sums up how I think the country may be headed eventually.

[jeepmor]

I'm with Romma. Unfortunately, the media will not help anyone but their cause, and the antis so conveniently ignore the crime that the lack of guns bring. It's about control, not guns, we all know that.

[Highland Ranger]

(visiting that page puts you right on a watch list I'm sure)

[WAshooter]

I dont know about about all of you, but every gun owner I know lives by the saying "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers." So if they tried to take our weapons there would be a lot of conflict.

[Citroen]

Many years ago I thought I was going to be a world champion boxer. I never went into the ring without thinking I would win - I usually did not! I play tennis (if you can call what I do actually playing the game) and I never go onto the court expecting to lose. Since you have never heard of me, it should be obvious that I do not win often.

We are in a war - one being fought on may fronts and there is a real danger in losing the war because we give up or don't try hard enough to win it.

If each of us would spend half the time we spend on the Internet actually fighting in the war for the hearts and minds of our fellow citizens we could ensure that our liberties are passed along to our grandchildren.

Instead of moaning we need to equip ourselves with both the knowledge and the tools to present our case. One of the best tools is a video named "Innocents Betrayed". It will cosUt you $29.99 or about the price of 3 boxes of ammunition - watch it yourself, show it to your family and loan it to your friends - it is powerful and it is also motivational. You can order it on-line from JPFO.

There is a vast sea of uneducated people out there who neither understand nor appreciate the freedoms that we have. If you surrender them without a real fight then you will be failing all those who went before you.

I can't speak for anyone else but I am in this fight to win and I am in it to the finish. I will never give up.

To those who say that we as a nation will never give up our guns, I would point you to a history lesson. Unless we win this in the arena of public opinion we will be taken down one gun at a time. It can and will happen. Who would ever have believed that the FBI would attack a religious group in Waco, Texas, or shoot a woman holding her baby in Ruby Ridge, Idaho? Fifty years ago who would have believed that we no longer have freedom of speech or that Christian prayers would be prohibited at school events? Don't kid yourself, if you don't fight now you will lose later.

John
Charlotte, NC

[finnerandr]

I second the "Innocents Betrayed" DVD. I ordered it and got it just last week. Sat down with some of my family and watched it. Lets just say that my mother was very moved! We are all pro 2nd amendment so it didnt sway any of us, but I will be showing it to some friends next. Maybe it will open some of their eyes a bit.

[glockman19]

I can't speak for anyone else but I am in this fight to win and I am in it to the finish. I will never give up.

+1
This is why I sterted the Thread. Thank You Citroen. The apathy of gun owners IMHO is amazing. We all talk alot and many of us call write e-mail and discuss rationally with others. But...We need to come together or the wedge that will divide us will go through like a warm knife through butter.

I hope to hear more from others on how we can create a REAL agenda that will save our rights and keep other from being afraid.

Most of our policy now both domestic and foreigh is based on FEAR. Guns are not to be feared.

[kurtmax]

The weapons in the hands of current generations will not be taken. It would be political suicide for the politicians, and literal suicide for the people trying to take the guns.

What is being done, is the constant propaganda about guns being evil, and only crazy people own guns, etc. Less and less people are interested in them. In a few generations nobody will have a desire to own them....

[kougar]

"What is being done, is the constant propaganda about guns being evil, and only crazy people own guns, etc. Less and less people are interested in them. In a few generations nobody will have a desire to own them.... "

Well said! It is the gradual dumbing down of our population, the distractions the media throw out(American Idol, etc) and our over all comfort and soft life we enjoy in this country all the while our rights are chisled away. At what point will there be a revolution of the people? What is it going to take to get our nation back?

[Koos Custodiet]

>Honestly I don't believe that if every gun owner in America dedicated their entire lives 24/7/365 to the cause of RKBA that we'll win in the end.

I have no problems with you as a person, hey, I'm a beetlehead too, but... people like you are the problem.

In South Africa we managed to head something worse than what Canada has off and change it into something more like a root canal than a hanging. Painful but not immediately fatal.

You'd be surprised to know how few of us (and I'm not too sure I should include myself, because I did so little) managed to do that.

If we had 1000 (count them twice, one thousand) people as dedicated as I am (and as I said, there are people more dedicated than I am) we would have blown this law out the water. We didn't have 1000 people. We did what we could. The other 3 million gun owners felt that they can't make a difference, and went on with their lives. They owe us bigtime, but they will never even know it.

[JohnKSa]

What is being done, is the constant propaganda about guns being evil, and only crazy people own guns, etc. Less and less people are interested in them. In a few generations nobody will have a desire to own them....Which is exactly why the CCW movement has been so effective.

In spite of the propaganda, the hundreds of thousands CCW'ers in the U.S. aren't doing crazy things and are, in fact, doing helpful things on occasion.

[glockman19]

So let's say a law is passed and they ask you to first voluntarily turn in your firearms after 6 months they say we're comming after the rest. Next thing you know a SWAT team is in front of your house with a warant and requesting entry to reposess your firearms.

What do you do?

I'd bet most would hand them over rather than risking their life.

I hope it never comes to that point but if you watch the video and look at the history of Britan & Australia and pre WWII Germany then you know it can happen.

[Zundfolge]

What do you do?
Tales of bloodlust, bravado, "COME AND TAKE THEM PIGS!" and shootouts with the gendarmes are generally considered verboten here on The High Road, so I can't answer this question.

But then again I've been in a real dark mood the last few weeks (for reasons that have to do with politics and reasons that don't). Maybe by the time it happens I'll be in a better mood.

[Kentucky]

I agree that the gradual dumbing down of Americans is one of the greatest tools of the anti's. When you think about what these kids are being fed all through the school system, and the constant media spin and bias, and the lack of proper education by their parents, it is no wonder that people are being dumbed down.

Our job is to re-educate these people!

So how can we do that? One group that I have gotten involved and interested with is the Appleseed group, which is primarily about introducing new shooters, and getting them involved. I would love to know of any other educational efforts from Pro 2A groups that I could get involved with as well? Could we get a list going here in this thread? And then begin to make a difference through these groups?

I dont think the gun community for the most part realizes what kind of power we hold. If just the members of THR alone would get serious about this fight we would ROLL over the enemy.

[Hawk]

Our job is to re-educate these people!

In order for that to work, we'd have to educate ourselves first and that can be a daunting proposition.

I often see the point made that we rely on facts while the opposition relies on distortions and emotion. For the most part, I'd go along with that. But in the interest of accuracy:

First: What happened in the UK and Australia were not "confiscations". "Confiscations" are uncompensated seizures (think Katrina). The owners in the UK and Oz were compensated.

I've heard some justify the use of the word by noting that it was involuntary or that the owners were not universally pleased with the size or promptness of their checks but this is, basically, a dodge. The best reason for misuse of the term is that it probably generates a couple extra bucks when the plate is passed. The plain and simple truth is that the two biggest examples of "confiscations" that we talk about are as bogus as "cop killer bullets" and "invisible ceramic guns".


Second: I'd rather take a molten lead enema than hear one more time that banning handguns in the UK caused gun crime to go up but this is, no doubt, a forlorn hope.

Handguns were banned in the UK. Gun crime in the UK has risen. There is no way in creation these events are connected. Why? Because there were no defensive handgun uses in the UK for years preceeding the ban. Taking away a means of defense that didn't exist in the first place does not embolden the criminal. Stating that one led to the other makes us look like we're incapable of discerning concurrency from causation.


Third: The "Ed Chenel warning to yanks" chain email is riddled with problems and ten years old anyway. We need to collectively learn a little restraint with respect to the "forward" button on our email clients. When this restraint fails one of our own, the recipient should exercise restraint in not posting it on internet gun boards like it was not only new but the embodiment of the Revealed Word.


The irony, of course, is that we give the home grown antis a free ride by not raising the monetary cost issues of their plans (those forthcoming enough to admit to wanting a handgun turn-in). I've actually had several decide health care might be a better investment for the trillion dollars that isn't there anyway. Facts are our friends. The opposition has already laid claim to breathless hyperbole and baseless conclusions - we probably couldn't use them as effectively anyway.

There are lessons to be learned from the UK - but it was too late way earlier than they indicate. They lost the schools and the media a lot earlier than we did. I'd expect that by sheer numbers we're OK for most of those here but a couple of generations will put us on the UK's path. We've lost the schools - kids are being raised to see no valid use in firearms by teachers and, more rarely, health care providers. I have no idea how to reverse it. If your grandkids think guns are icky and grab them up with tongs like they would a 42 ounce maggot, to haul off for disposal, paying off the remainder will be pretty easy.

[Big45]

So let's say a law is passed and they ask you to first voluntarily turn in your firearms after 6 months they say we're comming after the rest. Next thing you know a SWAT team is in front of your house with a warant and requesting entry to reposess your firearms.

What do you do?

I'd bet most would hand them over rather than risking their life.


You may or may not be right. But still, even if most did, the percentage that didn't would make the 'round-ups' fairly interesting.

[Citroen]

Hawk, you make some good points but I do not totally agree. I think it is important that we stick to factual arguments but I don't think your logic concerning the UK is without flaw.

Bottom line is this - it is far better to join the fight and learn from others than it is to sit around saying, "Somebody should do something!"

The battle is for the middle, not the extreme gun haters, but the people who lack knowledge - the middle ground so to speak. If along the way, we stump our toes occasionally it is still better than doing nothing.

Big, I think you are wrong and the history of too many countries prove that you are. Please do not count on "resistance" as the "enemy" will be your friends and neighbors - maybe your brothers. Enter the fray now and fight the battle with words and not swords.

John
Charlotte, NC

[Hawk]

I'm still in the fight, just haven't felt handicapped by acknowledging that the UK and Oz compensated the owners. In fact, it comes in real handy when discussing the issue.

I really think we lose much more than we gain by ignoring what actually happened.

[Will Learn]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=380_1174889100 Katrina aftermath

[fallingblock]

For gun-owning Australians, there was no (legal) alternative to surrendering
their possessions (semi-auto rifles & shotguns and pump shotgun) to the
government. After the "buyback" deadline expired, possession was illegal.

John Howard's government was constrained by the Australian Constitution from seizing lawfully-held property without compensation.

The fact that the confiscation was compensated in no way reduces the
tyrannical nature of it.:mad:

[mmike87]

If the people in charge of enforcing laws would just not enforce unjust laws, then we wouldn't have half these threats to our liberty. We're not just talking guns here folks, threats to our freedom are being legislated all the time and guns are only one issue.

Something being the "law" does not make it "just" or "right." I wonder how many LEO's would turn Blacks away at the polls if a law was passed revoking their right to vote? Hey, it's the law, right? You have to enforce the law, whatever it is. And you're off the hook morally because you were given an order, right? Just an example.

People have incredible power in numbers. Sometimes, people just need to say "No" in mass numbers. They can't come get everyone.

[ilbob]

If the people in charge of enforcing laws would just not enforce unjust laws, then we wouldn't have half these threats to our liberty. We're not just talking guns here folks, threats to our freedom are being legislated all the time and guns are only one issue.

Seems to me you have hit the nail on the head without even realizing it. The enforcers are not the problem so much as are those creating the laws in the first place. There are far fewer of them then there are enforcers, and they can be dealt with very effectively through the ballot box.

[mmike87]

I guess the point I am trying to make is that all these stupid laws (again, not just gun laws) come down from a select few. They are enforced by a larger but still small group. They are applied to a very large population that generally agrees that most of these things are a bad idea.

Prohibition - they took the booze away and everyone kept drinking anyway. Eventually, it was repealed. It was a silly law brought forth by a very vocal minority.

I guess it's in everyone's nature to be mindless robots and do everything they are told without any regard to it's justified or not.

The fact is that they could pass a law calling for uncompensated confiscation tomorrow. Most people would turn them in with no trouble. A few holdouts would talk big but would pretend they "didn't get the memo" once the SWAT team showed up at their door. And then they'd talk bigger once the SWAT team left.

So law enforcement and the population, together making up 99.9% of the population, will mindlessly do exactly what the other .1% tell them to do, every time. We're all guilty - not just the "enforcers" of the law. I'm not picking on anyone here - just stating what I believe to be our true nature these days.

This puzzles me. It also bothers me that we're terrified of what our government is going to "do" to us. It's supposed to be the other way around. And on the few occassions when people do organize, protest, and make their collective wills well known, they are surprisingly effective.

[RoadkingLarry]

Part of the problem is manifest in the "general publics" fascination with royalty, even here in the US. Maybe its just me but I "don't get" the whole royalty thing and don't uinderstand how any industrialized country puts up with it, but it seems to me that huge numbrs of people think it is a natural thing for there to be a "ruling class" and seem to wnat to be "ruled" and told what to do for every aspect of their life. Some of the obssesion bleeds over into celebrities and that is why we see some of the total crap being spewed by hollywierd being used to influence national laws.

[Justin]

Some of you need to go back and read what the Activism forum is all about.

Pro Tip:

If you're talking about how awesome a "vote from the rooftops" t-shirt is, you most definitely should go back and re-read the floated stickies at the top of the forum.