'Special bullets' killed Menezes


PDA






MartinBrody
October 15, 2007, 11:32 PM
Interesting article from the BBC educating their subjects about the fancy bullets their police use to deal with terrorists (or in this case an innocent man). Special bullets indeed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7045122.stm


'Special bullets' killed Menezes
Jean Charles de Menezes
Mr de Menezes was mistaken for a suicide bomber
Specialised bullets designed to kill instantly were used by the police marksmen who shot dead Jean Charles de Menezes, the Old Bailey has heard.

The bullets "immediately incapacitate" the victim and flatten, rather than pass through the other side of a body, the jury was told.

The Metropolitan Police is on trial over the 2005 Stockwell Tube shooting.

The force denies breaking health and safety laws when it mistook Mr de Menezes for a suicide bomber.

It faces a single charge of exposing the public to risk.

The force has been accused of making "fundamental failures" in the way it handled the operation.

Specialist firearms officers used hollow-point 124 grain bullets, employed by US air marshals.


This is a more effective bullet in the context of dealing with a suicide bomber
'Andrew'
Firearms adviser

A senior firearms advisor, known as "Andrew" to protect his anonymity, said the decision to use this ammunition was made to help police chasing the failed 21 July suicide bombers.

He also stressed that officers were trained to fire "as a last resort, when conventional methods have failed".

The advisor, who was an acting superintendent at the time of the fatal shooting, told the court that he opted for the bullets.

He said the usual, more powerful ammunition - 9mm jacketed soft point bullets - would pass through the other side.

"The bullet flattens on impact and immediately incapacitates the target," he told the court.

He continued: "This is a more effective bullet in the context of dealing with a suicide bomber as there is more chance of incapacitating a subject with a single shot.

'Absolutely necessary'

"A direct to brain stem shot is the only way to incapacitate a subject. You need a bullet that dumps all its energy into the subject."

The advisor added that should only fire when it is "absolutely necessary", they should act "proportionately" and "in compliance with the law".

And, describing the training regime used to develop firearms skills, the advisor told the court officers were required to achieve 70% accuracy with their shooting and underwent two periods of four full days' training every year.

Mr de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian, was shot seven times in the head on a train at Stockwell station after being wrongly identified.

If you enjoyed reading about "'Special bullets' killed Menezes" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
average_shooter
October 15, 2007, 11:39 PM
They shot an innocent man seven times in the head at point blank range... and they're bickering about what kind of bullets were used!?!?!:banghead:

GTSteve03
October 15, 2007, 11:42 PM
I'm sure the citizens of London can rest easy now that they know their protectors are using the latest high-tech weaponry to fight the scourge of terrorism. :rolleyes:

FieroCDSP
October 15, 2007, 11:52 PM
And, describing the training regime used to develop firearms skills, the advisor told the court officers were required to achieve 70% accuracy with their shooting and underwent two periods of four full days' training every year.

Mr de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian, was shot seven times in the head on a train at Stockwell station after being wrongly identified

8 days of training per year to be able to use an HP loaded gun? I suppose that's better than a baton. Given the mistake identity, they should learn how to ID a suspect first, then shoot. And seven times to the head seems a bit excessive, but I wasn't there, so maybe the first five or six were not effective.

Regolith
October 15, 2007, 11:55 PM
"The bullet flattens on impact and immediately incapacitates the target," he told the court.

Is it just me or is this "expert" full of hot air? While HP's are generally more effective than FMJ's, they don't ever guarantee an immediate incapacitation.

average_shooter
October 15, 2007, 11:57 PM
...they don't ever guarantee an immediate incapacitation.

They generally do when you put seven in someone's head.

Regolith
October 15, 2007, 11:59 PM
They generally do when you put seven in someone's head.

Yeah, that will do it. But this guy is talking about them like they're a magic freaking bullet. Like Silver bullets to a werewolf or something.

Zangetsu
October 16, 2007, 12:05 AM
If I had to guess, I'd say it was some type of "devastator" ammunition, which is a jacketed hollow point with the cavity filled with a type of impact sensitive explosive that does exactly what he was saying. "You need a bullet that dumps all its energy into the subject" and I they are actually advertised like this: "THE PROJECTILE CONTAINS A SPECIAL DETONATING COMPOUND THAT GREATLY INCREASES STOPPING POWER BY VIRTUALLY DELIVERING ALL THE KINETIC ENERGY INTO THE BODY. PRODUCES A WOUND CHANNEL 3-4 TIMES THE BULLET DIAMETER. WORKS WITH ANY FIREARM." And since they were 124 gr bullets, my money would be on 9mm. I know they article said that standard 9mm was "more powerful", but really, just how accurate has the news ever been when recording on anything firearm related?

2TransAms
October 16, 2007, 12:09 AM
Shot in the head. Yeah. Now if it was me,I think the least of my concerns would be if that was a HP or FMJ that just entered my skull.

I bet it was EXTreme Shock Fang Face ammo!

SaMx
October 16, 2007, 12:37 AM
they said it's the stuff US air marshals use, which would mean .357 sig. Then they said standard 9mm was more powerful. Crazy. Either way, It's just JHPs, not magic bullets.

pete f
October 16, 2007, 12:48 AM
its political MSM jumbo speak trying to hide the real issue.

If its the HST bullets that the Airmarshalls use, its every day off the shelf ammo.

The kid got shot by mistake, it sucks, but it happens, and the guys who did it are as eaten up as anyone. let it go....

ClickClickD'oh
October 16, 2007, 12:52 AM
Wow, what a complete and total fabrication... not unexpected at all.

Zangetsu
October 16, 2007, 01:12 AM
Good thing guns in Europe are only in the hands of professionals so tragedies like this don't happen :rolleyes:

Raph84
October 16, 2007, 01:26 AM
In regards to the "innocent man" statements. IIRC this was a situation directly after the tube bombings. The individual shot had a bag similar to those used by the terrorists. The man did not obey orders to drop the bag and show his hands. The man attempted to move away but also, again IIRC, made a conspicuous movement with one of his hands toward the bag. This is what police knew when they made the decision to shoot. (a sensible decision if you assume an innocent man has no reason not to follow police instructions, and would obviously not make a conspicuous movement to touch the bag....unfortunately they did not have any way to know that the individual did not speak english and very likely reacted out of confusion). All parties made "innocent" mistakes that lead to a tragic accident that likely could not have been averted.

This article just shows how little the media, and average guy on the street know about hollow point ammunition (sadly that lack of knowledge is not specific to europe, many here have similar misconceptions re: how HP's work, how common they are, and why they are used).

Ed Ames
October 16, 2007, 01:51 AM
The problem wasn't some officers misidentifying someone. Yes, mistakes like that do happen. This, however, was terminal institutional stupidity. Some genius in the UK government thought that shooting a potential suicide bomber would stop them from detonating their bomb.

Three words: Dead Man Switch.

Yep... by holding down what they thought was a suicide bomber and shooting point-blank into his head what they would have been doing with a real suicide bomber is... setting him off. They all would have died, and probably quite a few other people would have died or been injured.

It's not just classic dead man switches. There are more active sensors which can easily be made. With a few off the shelf components you can trigger on loud noises and other things I'm not going to get into.

They have a terminally stupid policy and they have released enough information about it that anyone with 2/5ths of a brain can use their tactics against them. Despite this they insist that the policy is correct and still in effect.

woodybrighton
October 16, 2007, 03:45 AM
he was never challenged (not a good idea if he was a suicide bomber:uhoh:) the whole thing was a cluster **** of unbelievably bad luck and wrong decisions. there were two teams of officers surveillance and fire arms neither were in immediate comms with each other. Charles looked like one of the suicide bombers RIP. ARMED officers thouyht they were dealing with a suicide bomber

xsquidgator
October 16, 2007, 07:58 AM
A little off-topic, but our air marshals use 125JHPs? Don't they use frangible ammo like glasers?

SaMx
October 16, 2007, 08:35 AM
nope, they use regular defensive ammo.

Mr. Designer
October 16, 2007, 02:27 PM
When are we going to get this high tech bullet here in the states?:)

hopkin
October 16, 2007, 03:09 PM
At least they weren't using .50BMG. Those are designed to shoot down aircraft, you know. Oh yes.

Harley Quinn
October 16, 2007, 04:22 PM
Mr de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian, was shot seven times in the head on a train at Stockwell station after being wrongly identified

Well hopefully his heirs will be better off for it. He will be remembered by some, as a person who was at the wrong location at the right time. Seven??? Isn't that supposed to be a lucky number?
In America if they did that it would really be on the air waves.

;)

ilbob
October 16, 2007, 05:07 PM
stuff happens.

cops make mistakes like everyone else.

mistakes and errors are part of being human.

not much different than the air marshal that shot a guy in a terminal building. IIRC, the dead guy was diabetic or something and needed his meds.

the common factor was that neither of the dead men responded in the way the cop expected, probably at least partly due to a language issue, and they are dead because of it. the cops involved were no doubt on a testosterone and adrenaline rush that made doing something more likely than doing nothing, and since they had guns in their hands, that something turned out to be pulling the trigger.

i don't see how you can fault the cops in either case. they are not trained in mind reading. they had to decide to shoot or not to shoot with little or no information upon which to make a decision. that's really the only options they had.

hopefully the bad PR will cause some rethinking to occur. but, what would any of you done differently given the same circumstances?

Odd Job
October 16, 2007, 06:06 PM
A couple of things to add:

1) The man was killed by sloppy intelligence. When the order was given to stop him, that was his death sentence right there. I don't blame the police, especially in view of the fact that they were reeling from the 54 deaths caused by suicide bombers just prior to that event. If anyone is responsible it is the guys who gave the green light on the stop.

2) Preliminary analysis of the first tube bombings indicated that it would be dangerous to shoot subsequent bombers COM because it may set off the explosives. I don't know anything about handgun rounds and various explosives but I can guarantee that the police would have had instructions on shot placement (where possible). Subsequent news reports leaked the headshot instruction and there was an uproar in the ranks of the sheeple at such a 'merciless and vicious' instruction.

3) I had the opportunity of speaking to armed police at the hospital (they were guarding the victim of a drive-by shooting who was coincidentally shot outside the hospital). They were carrying MP5s and G17s. One of them showed me a spare loaded magazine and let me see one of the cartridges. It was a British Aerospace truncated round nose JSP. (In other words it was like an FMJ that had its nose cut off). This was before the London bombings and these were armed police, not necessarily involved in anti-terrorist operations. It sounds like they gave the units involved in the Stockwell shooting different ammunition.

damien
October 16, 2007, 06:30 PM
If convicted, what is the penalty phase? Is this a lawsuit for money or what?

brickeyee
October 16, 2007, 06:38 PM
"I don't know anything about handgun rounds and various explosives..."

The peroxide type explosives being made are vary unstable and can explode during manufacture if allowed to overheat.
Running a bullet through them would NOT be a good idea.
They are barely hanging on in their existing form.

Fosbery
October 16, 2007, 07:00 PM
In regards to the "innocent man" statements. IIRC this was a situation directly after the tube bombings. The individual shot had a bag similar to those used by the terrorists. The man did not obey orders to drop the bag and show his hands. The man attempted to move away but also, again IIRC, made a conspicuous movement with one of his hands toward the bag. This is what police knew when they made the decision to shoot.

Menezez did not have a bag. He was never told to stop. He was not approached by or aware of the police until he was sitting down with a newspaper on the train. The officers then shouted "police!" as they grabbed him. They then restrained him, dragged him onto the floor, and fired eleven shots from a pair of Glock 17 9mm pistols. They hit him seven times in the head, and once in the shoulder.

In the initial hours and days after the shooting, police claimed that he had been wearing a large coat, carrying a bag, that he had run from police and jumped the ticket barriers. None of these reports turned out to be true.

MartinBrody
October 16, 2007, 08:53 PM
This article has some pics of Menezes prior to being killed, identified as JC (Jean Charles). He did have a bag. However, when I said "innocent man", I stand by it, he was innocent and did not deserve to be killed. Who was at fault is the subject of the inquiry being reported on in these articles.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7034430.stm

Glenn Kelley
October 17, 2007, 12:04 AM
Martin,
Read the link you posted.The cop had a bag the victim did not.The picture shows him with something white.The cop testified that he(the victim)had a newspaper.

Gator
October 17, 2007, 12:08 AM
Well, this was definitely tragic for Mr. Menezes, but I am glad the British police are taking the threat seriously.

Pilgrim
October 17, 2007, 12:42 AM
And, describing the training regime used to develop firearms skills, the advisor told the court officers were required to achieve 70% accuracy with their shooting and underwent two periods of four full days' training every year.
Four full days of training twice a year and they only achieve 70% accuracy at the end of four days?

Something is very wrong here.

Pilgrim

Geronimo45
October 17, 2007, 12:54 AM
They shot an innocent man seven times in the head at point blank range... and they're bickering about what kind of bullets were used!?!?!
Amazing, insn't it? You'd think that they would realize, with the slightest knowledge of ballistics, that seven bulletholes through the head are likely to rub you out regardless of bullet shape?

Were these cops part of some kind of crack unit? British version of SWAT or some such? Seven rounds to the head from two shooters sounds very impressive.

Blackbeard
October 17, 2007, 01:13 AM
I guess Amadou Diallo can rest in peace knowing he was killed by mistake with regular bullets.

Odd Job
October 17, 2007, 03:21 AM
Geronimo45, as far as I know he was wrestled to the ground first, then shot.

feedthehogs
October 17, 2007, 06:02 AM
The kid got shot by mistake, it sucks, but it happens, and the guys who did it are as eaten up as anyone. let it go....

Not as eaten up as the kids family and hopefully some time behind bars will make them remember it more.

Elza
October 17, 2007, 08:31 AM
Just an accident? I question whether those defending the cops would be as caviler if a member of their family were killed in a similar fasion.

ilbob
October 17, 2007, 12:42 PM
I question whether those defending the cops would be as caviler if a member of their family were killed in a similar fasion.
No doubt its a lot harder when it touches close to home.

You have to take these incidents in context.

There is a difference between human mistakes and malice.

It is malice to deliberately set about to violate a citizen's rights, and LE should be chastised for it.

It is a mistake when bad and/or incomplete information forces you to make a life or death decision in a split second, and it turns out you killed an innocent person.

Bobo
October 17, 2007, 01:22 PM
I JUST LOVE BRITISH COMEDIES! :D:D

Ian
October 17, 2007, 03:58 PM
Held down and shot 7 times in the head? They didn't need hollowpoints; they could've killed him just fine that way using blanks. :uhoh:

gak
October 19, 2007, 06:10 AM
The bullets "immediately incapacitate" the victim and flatten, rather than pass through the other side of a body

I didn't know these guys supply british police departments:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/gakk/extreme.jpg

uw145
October 31, 2007, 08:19 PM
Pausing to warn family members of the evidence he was about to give, Ivor said he saw Mr de Menezes stand and advance.

He judged that he could have been a suicide bomber preparing to detonate a device - and that he needed to restrain him.


Two police officers followed Mr Menezes down to the platform

"I grabbed Mr de Menezes by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms against his sides," he said.

"The right side of my head was against his torso, pushing him back into his seat. He appeared to stiffen up and he was not in a natural sitting position.

"I felt his head turn towards me and I was aware of a CO19 [firearms] officer kneeling on the seat to my left.

"I heard a gunshot very close to my left ear. I was hit by the shockwave of a firearm being discharged."


Hmm so the officer in question restrained someone he had been told was a possible suicide bomber. Seems quite brave to me....

With reference to
And, describing the training regime used to develop firearms skills, the advisor told the court officers were required to achieve 70% accuracy with their shooting and underwent two periods of four full days' training every year.

This is only in relation to the specific operational technique used with suspected suicide bombers (Operation Kratos). In reality armed officers will be training every week with tactics and techniquies and shooting weekly also. It is only the above when they attend a formal requalification. Yes the pass rate may seem quite low. Can anyone tell me what it is in the USA...

The Deer Hunter
October 31, 2007, 08:42 PM
I bet it was EXTreme Shock Fang Face ammo!

Haha!

If you enjoyed reading about "'Special bullets' killed Menezes" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!