[the naked prophet]

I recently took out both the mossberg 500 and the AK clone I have, to shoot both at the range. (Mossberg 500 is 18.5 inch barrel "protector" model or something like that, with synthetic stock and forearm - AK is WASR-10 with collapsible stock and Kobra red dot sight) I can get accurate hits much, much faster with my AK. Not to mention, practice ammo is cheaper, as is the ammo I keep for defense (Win. Super-X softpoints vs. Remington #1 buck).

Is this a bad thing? I've always kept a shotgun close by the bed, but it just seems like I can't afford to practice enough with the shotgun to get good enough that I can justify keeping it next to the bed rather than the AK.

I like shotguns, and they seem more American. I just don't do as well with it. If I was taking a training course for self-defense, I feel that I would come out in the upper half of a carbine class, and the bottom rung of a shotgun class. I can't realistically afford both within a reasonable time frame, and my wife would participate with me in the carbine class but not the shotgun class. So the question is, do I take a shotgun class and get up to speed, or take a carbine class with my wife and become proficient?

Or is the whole question silly?

[obxned]

Both!

[Kar-el]

Buy a Saiga 12. Best of both worlds-shotgun with an AK action. I do have to put a pistol grip on it soon.

[TFin04]

I'd take a shotgun over a rifle in close range defense like a house would be.

You don't HAVE to shoot the expensive stuff for practice. Mainly, you're just looking to be proficient with the action, loading, etc. I shoot in 3 gun matches which gives me a ton of practice with both a rifle and shotgun. My moss 500 is definitely the long gun I'd want to have on hand in the middle of the night.

[Fred Fuller]

This may sound heretical, but here goes anyway.

It doesn't really matter that much what firearm you keep at hand. What matters is that you are good with it and have confdence in your ability to use it effectively. SOFTWARE matters more than HARDWARE. Use what you are best with, and if you are convinced that one weapon is actually more effective than others, then get good with the weapon you believe to be more effective- but do whatever it takes to get fully proficient with your chosen platform.

I don't think there is any substitute for good training and good follow-on practice based on that training to help 'groove' the skills initially learned in class. It doesn't have to be a world class high-dollar school halfway across the country- there are good training opportunities all over. Find them, and take advantage of them. Then practice, practice, practice. Once you have fully mastered a given skill set, look for opportunities to move on to higher levels- or study on a different platform.

But whatever else you do, don't fall victim to the Church Of Gun Bling. It isn't the hardware that matters- it's the software. If you are interested in 'go' and not 'show,' then your skillset should be the focus of your attention- not your hardware. Spend your energy on getting really good with your chosen weapons.

Including your wife in training opportunities is one of the greatest ideas possible IMHO. Her abilities are equally important, and her confidence needs building as much as yours does. The ability of the both of you to perform as a team is critical.

My wife's birthday present this summer was a slot in Louis Awerbuck's carbine class- taking it did her a tremendous amount of good in many ways. I played general gofer/armorer/magazine loader/etc for her so she could concentrate on the class. And it was only fair, it was her turn this year- last year she played the support role for me as I took Louis' shotgun class.

The question is most certainly not silly. And the point of training is to expose yourself to new skills, new instructors with different ways of teaching, different demands on students, etc. Where you "place" in class is totally irrelevant- there is no contest in training classes, the only thing that matters is YOU, what you learn and what you take away from the class.

hth,

lpl/nc

[nalioth]

When you are at the range, are you firing at targets that are the same distance as your bed is from your bedroom door?

[Correia]

Either one will do a great job. (and beat the pants off of a pistol). If you're far more confident with one than the other, run the one that you shoot better. At the end of the day, you're the one that is going to have to defend yourself, not any of us opinionated folks on the internet. :)

[CWL]

Arm yourself with whichever gun you are most efficient at and feel most comfortable with.

My only thought is that you will need to be fanatical about servicing the batteries on the Kobra, probably change them at regular service periods rather than waiting for them to give out to insure reliability.

[Scorpiusdeus]

While I basically agree with most of the Shoot what works crowed, I'm thinking over penetration with the rifle and I imagine this...

"Home Owner Shoots Intruder With Military Assault Rifle".

[halfacop]

So the question is, do I take a shotgun class and get up to speed, or take a carbine class with my wife and become proficient?


In my book - the SG is a much better home defense platform. So I would say to take a Shotty class and get up to speed. If your allready "On Target" with the rifle then you can spend time with that platform later on.

So take both - but if you have to pick........get training on the platform that you lack basic skill on.

[Feanaro]

Hone yourself on the platform you feel natural with, then work on your shotgun shooting. Normally, I like to work on my weaknesses before my natural strengths. But being middlin' with both platforms doesn't do you a lot of good when you can't use both at once. Better to be good with one, then work on the other, IMO.

[elkhuntingfool]

Silly question - but how does one practice at a range with a SD shotgun? I shoot skeet, trap, birds, rabbits, field mice, etc... pretty much year round (birds in season). But I'm unfamiliar with practicing for SD. What should one be practicing?

Thanks!

[halfacop]

But I'm unfamiliar with practicing for SD. What should one be practicing?

Typical range work for SD shotty practice would go along the lines of loading, reloading, change of ammo while always keeping your eyes on the threat.

Transistions from the shotty to a handgun and back again - would be good to be proficient at.

Shooting on the move and from barricades.

I could go on.................................here's a taste......................

http://www.handgun-shotguntraining.com/video%20files/stress%20fire%20shotgun.wmv

[Dope]

Personally the main reasons I stick to a shotgun for HD, no matter how good I am with a rifle or pistol are:

1) Legal. "Home owner shoots intruder with military assault rifle". "Home owner shoots intruder with specially designed hollowpoint bullets meant to kill puppies and babies"
2) Wall penetration. Buckshot in a shotgun penetrates far less than pretty much any pistol or rifle round but is still very effective at stopping a human. I live in a heavily populated area so this is a big deal.

You do what you have to do to protect yourself and your family, but these 2 issues are big enough to me to make me choose the shotgun.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your choices. It will just really suck if someday you get put in the position of having to shoot someone to defend yourself. Get a jury full of people who have never even held a firearm and the prosecution starts using all of the scary words to describe your instrument of choice...scares me just as much as the possibility of the incident itself!

Dope

[Kingcreek]

You might want to re-evaluate the fit of that SG before you relegate it to HD semi-retirement. A SG with proper fit and function would be MY preference over an AK, but I also expect you'll want to use what serves you best. just don't give up on the SG prematurely.

[Mannlicher]

for years, I have used a Bushmaster shorty AR for HD. I have shotguns, but they have too many negatives for a defense gun.

[Dave McCracken]

Things might be different if i did it today, but my experience points the other way.

Back when I threegunned, I got first shot hits faster and scored a hair higher with a shotgun than....

An AR.

A SKS with mods.

And issue Mini 14s.

To this day 870s are my gotos. YMMV.

Do train with everything....

[sixgunner455]

Software. Shoot what works for you, what you feel more confident in your abilities with.

I prefer the rifle to the shotgun for defensive purposes. I use an AR.

[Srigs]

I perfer the shotgun due to less penetration through walls. Only you can decide what will work best for you but inside my home the shotgun is king.

Let us know what you decide. :)

[Gary G23]

I switched from a shotgun to a carbine years ago. 30 rounds versus 7 and the ability to reload fast. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[DawgFvr]

An SKS behind the bedroom door...a .45 ACP on the night stand...but my Mossberg 590 is my go to gun when my house is breached.

[elkhuntingfool]

An SKS behind the bedroom door...a .45 ACP on the night stand...but my Mossberg 590 is my go to gun when my house is breached.

High crime neighborhood? I figure my 45acp will/should do just fine. Hope I never have to test that theory.

[Papaster]

I'd say you're gonna have to evaluate what you're defending. If you're talking wide open spaces in the middle of nowhere with no neighbors or family members for miles, the AK is a valid HD gun. Especially if you anticipate out-doors combat with intruders. For in your house, with family members spread throughout, and neighbors on all sides, an SG w/ your trusted pistol will likely be a better choice. My bed side gun is a Taurus PT145. I'm in a very small apartment, and clearing it with anything longer than a handgun is unrealistic. A rifle would penetrate walls of 3-4 neighbors before slowing down. There's just too much at stake to use a rifle in my scenario. And when I get a little more square footage, and an intruder is more than a second or two from my bedroom, I'll add a shotgun to my HD arsenal. Not until I get my ranch with 40+ acres will I go to a rifle for defense.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I keep my Makarov velcroed to bedpost, SXS 12 ga. in near corner and Marlin Camp .45 w/10 rd mag hanging on wall hook. the big boys are there if I have to step outside I live 150 yds off pavement. I'm awful skeered of the dark:eek:

[buzz_knox]

"Home Owner Shoots Intruder With Military Assault Rifle".

""Home Owner Shoots Intruder With Assault Shotgun".

"Home Owner Shoots Intruder With Assault Pistol".

"Home Owner Shoots Intruder With Hollowpoint Ammunition".

"Socioeconomically disadvantaged murdered by Home Owner while looking for food."

If we play the "how will the media spin this" card, we will lose everytime. Make a rational and informed decision as to what will or will not give you the optimum chance of surviving a deadly force situation and the legal aftermath that is certain to follow.

[the naked prophet]

I'm keeping the AK loaded with rapidly expanding JSP ammo, which is supposed to penetrate less wallboard than pistol ammo or 00 buck, according to someone's tests (don't remember whose tests, the ammo oracle maybe?).

I'm not particularly concerned with overpenetration, as the field of fire would put any thru-wall shots into a wooded hill about 200 yards away, or if for some reason I have to leave my bedroom, the shots would go through the brick side walls of the house and the next houses, or out the back wall of the house and over the rear neighbors houses.

Anyway, there is a lot of discussion on this thread. I hadn't expected quite this much... I'm kinda interested in the whole training issue (train in what you're comfortable with to get really good vs. train in what you aren't good at to become adequate across the board).

[buzz_knox]

I'm kinda interested in the whole training issue (train in what you're comfortable with to get really good vs. train in what you aren't good at to become adequate across the board).

You need to get training in any system you are likely to use, in order to figure out where you'll get the best return on your training investment. After you figure out what works best for you (M4gery vs AK, autoloading shotgun vs pump, etc), invest a significant portion of your training time and budget on that system. However, it is still worthwhile to crosstrain as you'll develop valuable skill sets across the board, you'll be able to determine if something else works better for you at that point, and you'll be ready if the only weapon at hand is something that isn't your primary interest but is one you have trigger time on.

[sinistr]

i was wondering about muzzle flash/noise in this situation.whenever the conversation of rifles for hd this subject never seems to come up. i fired a .223 in a two lane range one time(it was about the size of an average room)with low light and no hearing protection. my vision was impaired and i was in some serious pain(after 2 rounds).with the sg or pistol it was tolerable.i have never taken defensive carbine course or read much about the matter ,is there something im missing here?

[buzz_knox]

Muzzle flash is often ammunition dependent. If you are using surplus military ammunition or higher grade commercial/LE, there should be retardants in the powder that reduce the muzzle flash. I've done a night carbine course and shot a 12 gauge in a dimly lit range. The shotgun was brighter than some of the carbines.

As for the muzzle report, none of them will be good for your ears. The only question is which one will give you the optimum chance to survive and seek an aural specialist to work on the damage.

[fireflyfather]

I switched from a shotgun to a carbine years ago. 30 rounds versus 7 and the ability to reload fast. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I can't imagine using more than 30 rounds for HD in anything other than an entire mob attacking my home. If that 30 round mag is your security blanket, fine, but IMHO, a bedroom gun is meant for burglars, not complete social breakdown.

Train with the weapon you think you will plan on using. That usually means training with the weapon that meets minimum requirements for your purpose (either carbine or SG in this case), AND you feel the most comfortable with.

[Navy87Guy]

Why do you think you do better with the AK? Is it because of the ergonomics? The red dot sight? Or is it just psychological?

I agree with all the recommendations for training. Get some and see if it makes a difference. Suarez International teaches a variety of courses around the country, including Shotgun Fighting.

If you think it's the ergonomics or the sight on the AK that makes the difference, then go for the Saiga S12. You can barely tell the difference between it and an AK -- except for the size of the magazine.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/889657/SaigasSideBySide.jpg

(That's the S12 on the bottom)

Jim

[the naked prophet]

One of the reasons I picked the AK is because my chosen HD load is both quieter and has less flash than any of the potential HD loads I could find for the shotgun. Seriously, my AK is quieter than any of my handguns (minus a .22) and all my centerfire rifles and shotguns.

I don't really want 30 rounds, but I'd use a 20 if I could find one. I like both the ergonomics and the sighting/shooting method better on the AK. When I was a kid, I shot thousands and thousands of BBs at the blackbirds in my back yard (they got into the garden and pestered the dog). First time I picked up a rifle, I was a natural. Not so for the shotgun. It's comforting to hold, but seeing my performance was not exactly comforting. I could get along if I had to, but I feel much more capable with the rifle. I can hit COM at 5 yards from the hip easily, and out to 25 yards I don't even have to use the sight when shooting from the shoulder (I can leave the red dot turned off and still get COM hits fairly easily). The shotgun just doesn't work that well for me.

[littlegator]

From Correia: At the end of the day, you're the one that is going to have to defend yourself, not any of us opinionated folks on the internet.

Oh that does it...what the heck am I paying you people for anyway? I'm going to start taking down the stickers in my front window that state, "Protected by THR members". I guess I'll just have to protect myself from here on out. Now where did I put that money for the Benelli M4 I wanted...

[mgregg85]

A pistol gripped 870 with a full magazine tube and a trigger lock sits next to my bed with my surefire on the table next to my bed with my XD45. In the event of a home invasion I would pocket the xd and unlock the 870, you cannot argue with a shotgun's firepower and I feel very confident with that shotgun.

[GigaBuist]

You won't get any crap from me on the matter. I'm quite happy keeping whatever gun I've been shooting the most ready for HD. Lately thats one of my 870's. In times past it's been a Marlin 1894C and for a spell I kept a 12 gauge Coach gun under the bed.

Caliber, magazine capacity, etc are all moot points if you can't remember where all the controls are in the dead of the night under stress.

[Navy87Guy]

One of the reasons I picked the AK is because my chosen HD load is both quieter and has less flash than any of the potential HD loads I could find for the shotgun. Seriously, my AK is quieter than any of my handguns (minus a .22) and all my centerfire rifles and shotguns.

I'm not sure I would have considered quietness a virtue for my HD rounds. I want the bad guy's buddies to know that they just lost one of their own, and it gives other family/neighbors a chance to call 911 if I didn't to. Flash I can sort of understand - but not noise.

I still say try a converted Saiga -- I think you'd be surprised at how your performance improves with an AK-like set up.

Jim

[the naked prophet]

It's still plenty loud - just quieter than others which might split my eardrums with a single shot. My wife's 14 inch AR with a very loud muzzle brake will split your eardrums when you're wearing plugs and muffs. A glock 19 is painfully loud when wearing only earplugs. But the AK is comfortable to fire with only earplugs.

[Diggers]

Humm I know ALOT of people use their AK's or AR's as their main HD weapon but it has always seemed a little odd to me to use a rifle as an IN YOUR HOUSE defensive weapon. Sure it would work but these guns are made for long range work …. you know, its a RIFLE. ;)

I wouldn't use a 30-30 in my house for HD and an AK round has about the same ballistics as a 30-30. :uhoh:

And 20 or 30 rounds?? Really? (who’s army is coming for you?) You WILL have a pretty hard time explaining that to the Judge. :scrutiny:

A shot gun makes better sense for a few reasons. First, has plenty of power close up. Also it is a short range weapon thus more easily seen as a defensive weapon. Shot guns don’t have the same negative image as an AK or AR does.

On top of all that at 10 or 15 FEET (HD ranges) ONE load of buck shot may actually do more damage than ONE AK or AR round, ending the fight faster. :)