Sig p220 slides?


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FullEffect1911
October 17, 2007, 11:05 AM
This is somewhat confusing me, so I am requesting the Sig gurus to help out.

As I have found out there is two (or more) type of p220 slides, stamped and machined. I have also found out that there are apparently two types of extractors one for the p220ST and one for the rest.

Alright, so are current production p220 slides using a removable breech block or are they all one solid piece now? What extractor are they using? I have a p220 ST with a solid breech block and the extractor seems to be different from what the removable ones have. Is there only two types or extractors for the p220 (one for the removable block one for a solid slide)? And of course which is the better design if there is a difference?

:confused:

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Exmasonite
October 17, 2007, 11:29 AM
i'm not too sure about ALL of your questions but i do know that the P220 Carry has a shorter barrel/slide (0.5" off the barrel to make it 3.9").

beyond that, i'll keep an eye out for other more educated replies.

MASTEROFMALICE
October 17, 2007, 11:33 AM
Sig puts out a longer 5" 220 barrel as well.

Radjxf
October 17, 2007, 11:52 AM
I'm no expert by any means, but do own and work on several Sigs. The older guns have a mandrel folded steel slide with a breechblock insert. The newer guns with the stainless slides are "one piece" in terms of the slide/breech and each style has it's own type of extractor.
Most Sig guys will agree that the older design is more reliable. I own both, and can tell you that the newer extractors suffer from design and fitment/tension issues at times. I generally look for non-rail, folded steel Sigs made in Germany or West Germany.
Another thing is the "older" Sigs use a steel hammer spring base with a longer hammer spring. These guns have an initial lighter pull that stacks towards the break in DA mode. I personally don't like this and swap out my hammer strut, spring and base for the new style short hammer spring setup which is more linear in terms of pull weight.
IMO the older German P220's are one of the finest handguns ever made. They rival a very good 1911 in terms of accuracy, and are generally more reliable, again IMO.

usp_fan
October 17, 2007, 11:59 AM
I think Radjxf handled your question well. The only thing I can add is that the newer (solid) slides are heavier and balance differently than the old folded slides. The folded slides need to be kept oiled or have a different finish applied as they do rust. The newer slides are not as influenced by moisture--being stainless steel. There were some issues with the new style extractors, but by and large, it seems the newest production batches are not having the volume of trouble that the first generation solide slide guns did.

Exmasonite
October 17, 2007, 12:02 PM
USP-

what is the time frame on when the "first generation" slides were made? i.e. when were the problem children spawned?

thanks!

usp_fan
October 17, 2007, 12:09 PM
If you head over to the SIG forum and search 220 extractor you'll get quite a few posts. It seems many of the problems spanned from the 220ST models which are no longer made. My best guess is the 220's made in the last year are good to go.

FullEffect1911
October 17, 2007, 01:15 PM
Thank you very much for your informative posts usp_fan and Radjxf they answered my question quite well. The reason I bring this all up is that in my study of the p220 design I have and from what I have read, the extractor is a strange design indeed. But as i have read from someone on the sig forum, maybe a dozen people report problems, and several thousand report nothing (which usually means they are having no problems).

With that said, does anyone have a exploded diagram and parts numbers of a non folded p220? Namely the stainless slide models with solid slides?

.45&TKD
October 17, 2007, 01:30 PM
I generally look for non-rail, folded steel Sigs made in Germany or West Germany.

Does that mean that the European LEO trade in P225/P6's at AIM are a good buy if you want a SIG?

usp_fan
October 17, 2007, 02:29 PM
The P6's are a pretty good buy. I've seen them at local Gander Mountains for $300 on sale and $359 normal price. Most seem to have been carried lots and shot little.

Chem Geek
October 17, 2007, 02:38 PM
I generally look for non-rail, folded steel Sigs made in Germany or West Germany.

Does that mean that the European LEO trade in P225/P6's at AIM are a good buy if you want a SIG?

Those can be very good buys, mainly due to the great price they're available at, and the fact that they often haven't seen much use.

As far as the folded non-rail model Sigs being better, that's more of a preference. As stated they balance a little differently, and you may find you have a preference for one of the other. I prefer the newer milled slide models.

quickcanary
October 17, 2007, 03:40 PM
What year did the slides make the switch from folded to stainless?

Radjfx said that a lot of guys prefer the older non-rail models and I've noticed the same thing, but at the same time I remember reading that SIG beefed up some parts in the P220 during the mid 90s. On a side note, when did SIG start putting rails on the guns? (usp_fan, I was curious what separates guns made in the last year)

usp_fan
October 18, 2007, 12:06 AM
(usp_fan, I was curious what separates guns made in the last year)

Nothing except there seems to be less folks talking about issues with their extractors on new pistols. I wish there was some way to tell before you left the store, but I've not heard any good checks to indicate if the extractor is good or not except to shoot it. Reguardless, the 220 is a great pistol. Mine is accurate, lighter to carry than my 1911, and extremely fun to shoot.

evan price
October 18, 2007, 05:31 AM
Sig continued to use folded slides well through the late 90's, I have a 1994 model German-made folded slide P220 that is IMHO the best .45 out of the box out there.
IIRC there was a minor change made in the early 90's relating to the secondary sear notch and the hammer return spring but the details are fuzzy in my mind. There were also some minor changes to hammer shape and the takedown lever; if you see a P229 style takedown lever it is usually an indicator of the newer style slide (unless someone has changed it out).

IIRC again, if the extractor is an external model like a P229, it's the stainless slide. Of course it should stay "stainless" on it too...

1BLINDREF
October 18, 2007, 09:14 AM
The quickest way to tell a stamped slide from a solid milled slide is the roll pin.
If its a two piece roll pin, its a stamped slide.
If its a solid roll pin, its a solid slide.
Sig actually used the stamped slides past the mid 90's on the P228s and the P225s. The P226s and P220s went to the solid milled slide somewhere around 1997/1998?? All of the P229 and P239 slides are solid milled slides.
I've got both stamped slide and milled slide Sigs. I like the way the stamped slide Sigs balance better than the solid slide Sigs. I can really tell the difference when I shoot them side by side.
I have an older P220ST and haven't had any extractor problems yet (knock on wood).

FullEffect1911
October 18, 2007, 09:33 AM
From what I have read/determined the only cause of an extractor issue would be caused by the extractor itself losing tension. The extractor fits in at the base in the breech and in the middle to prevent it from "torquing" or dropping out of it's spot. If the extractor maintains it's curve it will stay in it's middle channel. This stands to reason that only a improper part would cause problems. And from what I have read the problems were caused by a bad vendor part.

However I have also read that there is a new extractor in the works over at grayguns.com or something along those lines... I would be interested to know what the improved design would be...

Take all of this with a grain of salt, I am not a SIG armorer nor do I play one on TV.

Radjxf
October 18, 2007, 09:48 AM
The extractor issue is mostly a QC problem. Tensioning of the extractors is obviously not considered, and the one I had problems with could use a proper relief angle as well to facilitate the cartridge's movement under the claw. I would have simply fixed mine myself (so I'd know it would get done right:rolleyes:) but it was under warranty. In Sig's defense, they paid shipping and I had my gun back apparantly fixed in less than 10 days.
Again, IMO only the older German-made guns have better balance, much better QC and have usually exhibited better accuracy in my hands. However, I don't like the stacking DA trigger pull on the older guns with the "long hammer spring" design. I've swapped mine out for the new-style short hammer spring setup with plastic base. That said, I wouldn't be afraid to own a new Sig, well, just not the pimped out Kimber-esque models :barf:

Ala Dan
October 18, 2007, 10:27 AM
I agree with my friend Radjxf on the comments that he has provided~! ;)

quickcanary
October 18, 2007, 06:01 PM
Nothing except there seems to be less folks talking about issues with their extractors on new pistols.

Ah, I see. Well, the flip side of that is that maybe the new guns don't have as many rounds through them as the older guns, thus the extractors are less worn. (?)

I'm sure it's hard to go wrong with a SIG but as has been pointed out, many people tend to prefer the older guns. My only concern is that, if indeed they were better built, when something breaks and you have to send it in SIG might replace the broken part with a newer revision which may or may not be of lower quality. I'm probably worried over nothing though, as I'm certain the number of SIGS that operate flawlessly far outweighs the number that exhibit problems. I've seen some people complain about SIG's quality deteriorating but it's a fact that they still sell like hotcakes and I've seen far fewer complaints about them vs. some other manufacturers (Kel-Tec, Taurus, etc.).

Jimmy Newman
October 18, 2007, 09:17 PM
I have a Sig P220ST (stainless frame, stainless slide) that is about two years old. It is extremely reliable, extremely solid, very accurate, and there is no way I would trade it for one of the folded slide ones (which I have shot a few times). I also have shot the alloy frame 220's with the new slides.

I don't understand all the people who think the folded slide SIGs are so much better than the new ones. Yeah, they balance a little differently, and if you're used to the folded slide it might feel weird. I still think it's a step forward.

FullEffect1911
October 19, 2007, 08:37 AM
I don't understand all the people who think the folded slide SIGs are so much better than the new ones. Yeah, they balance a little differently, and if you're used to the folded slide it might feel weird. I still think it's a step forward.

I personally don't have any basis for comparison, however I love the way my p220ST balances and shoots. Even my my buddy (action_can_co) who love revolvers and frowns on the lowly bottom feeder, liked the way the 220ST shot. Now thats saying something!

My only concern is that, if indeed they were better built, when something breaks and you have to send it in SIG might replace the broken part with a newer revision which may or may not be of lower quality.

From what I understand the forged slides don't lack QC. But the design of the extractor is such that if a poorer quality part slips through the cracks it will cause a problem in the handgun. It's a design problem in this case. However since a whole lot more people haven't had problems and only some have... it would seem that quality isn't the problem. The problems really popped up within the first several hundred rounds or late in life. 220's that have went back to SIG for the reported failures have come back and work great.

If you want to see quality problems look at the current stock of 1911 manufactures... they don't care what they do to a 1911 as long as it goes out the door. :banghead:

FullEffect1911
October 19, 2007, 08:39 AM
I don't understand all the people who think the folded slide SIGs are so much better than the new ones. Yeah, they balance a little differently, and if you're used to the folded slide it might feel weird. I still think it's a step forward.

I personally don't have any basis for comparison, however I love the way my p220ST balances and shots. Even my my buddy (action_can_co) who love revolvers and frowns on the lowly bottom feeder liked the way the 220ST shot. Now thats saying something!

My only concern is that, if indeed they were better built, when something breaks and you have to send it in SIG might replace the broken part with a newer revision which may or may not be of lower quality.

From what I understand the forged slides don't lack QC. But the design of the extractor is such that if a poorer quality part slips through the cracks it will cause a problem in the handgun. It's a design problem in this case. However since a whole lot more people haven't had problems and only some have... it would seem that quality isn't the issue. The problems really popped up within the first several hundred rounds or late in life. 220's that have went back to SIG for the reported failures have come back and work great.

If you want to see quality problems look at the current stock of 1911 manufactures... they don't care what they do to a 1911 as long as it goes out the door. :banghead:

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