.45 ACP better than 12 gauge?


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esheato
October 18, 2007, 07:17 AM
I was reading The Gun Digest Book of the Sig-Sauer by Massad Ayoob tonight when I came across this sentence in reference to caliber and ammunition recommendations.

"In one shooting, two deputies faced a gunman with a pistol in each hand. The first deputy shot him in the stomach with a blast of 12 gauge 00 tactical buckshot, and the suspect showed now response whatever.

The second deputy shot him in the upper arm with a 230 Ranger +P from his privately owned, department-approved SIG P220, and the man instantly dropped his guns and fell.

The perpetrator survived. The detective who interviewed him after surgery said the gunman told him, "Something (12 gauge shotgun) hit me in the stomach. Then something like to tore my arm off, and it hurt so bad I thought I'd better give up." His words were prophetic. The Ranger .45 bullet caused so much damage, surgeons had to amputate the arm at the shoulder."

Sooo, I guess that settles that argument. The .45 ACP is better than a 12 gauge. :neener::neener:

Ed

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AZ_Rebel
October 18, 2007, 07:35 AM
:confused: Here we have been giving the 12 Guage too much credit... or the .45`ACP not enough? Since Ayoob wrote it it must be true... This post doesn't mention the range that this supposed encounter occurred but... Wow... it must be true... I am putting my 870 in the trash tonight and promoting my 1911 to Full HD Status! It must be true... Ayoob wrote it!:)
(Madeline Kahn in Blazing Saddles... ITS TWUE, ITS TWUE)

sm
October 18, 2007, 08:09 AM
12 gauge 00 tactical buckshot

Was this a reduced recoil loading?
I really would like to know.

I personally refuse to use any Reduced Recoil shotgun shells, AEB by my testing and experiences and observations of others.

-

This "Versus" Crap everyone keeps posting it total BS!
I have asked, more than once, Staff put "Versus" thread into the "No Topic Allowed" here on THR.

Look this stuff up, Go shoot the damn guns and ammo, or take a training class.


You want to Attack Mas Ayoob, Me, anyone else, do it off line. I will not put up with that BS either.

Shot Placement folks.

Here is the bottom line, when it is your time to die, you die.
I don't give a damn how much friggin' ammo you have, training, make model of gun , or any damn thing.

If it ain't your time to die, you don't. Real damn simple how this life bit works.


In the Main OR, Standard load of Nine pellet 00 buck, to the upper legs, fellow lived.
Another fellow, again Nine Pellet Standard Load of 00 buck to tummy, and this fellow lived.

Full house loads of .357 , barrel of gun into this guys mouth, and he pulls the trigger - and lives.

.22 short, lady dead, we did the Organ Harvest on her.
.25ACP , 300 pound fellow, dead, again we did the organ harvest.


My preferred Shotgun load, is Slugs.
2 3/4 " slugs, Foster of Brenneke, 12 or 20 gauge.

You can have your other reduced recoil slugs and buckshot loads and other Fru-Fru Exotic, Novelty crap.
Friggin' 'Net, faster communication and exchange of information and this includes BS!

Nastiest deal? Organ Harvest. Deceased done in by a 40oz beer bottle to Carotid Artery.
Bleed and dead - fast.

I gotta an idea.

Ultimate Extreme Tactical Ninja Teem SEEL Beer Bottles.
Carbon Fiber thigh holsters.
Slap a Exotic "Kills so fast they died yesterday" Label on the thing.
Comes with CCW Badge that has a Tack-Tickle knife built in that clips to pocket.
Even comes with a PGO attachement side saddle, Bazillion Candlepower light, Neck extension and rails all around the thing.




Enough of the Versus threads already!

esheato
October 18, 2007, 08:24 AM
Was this a reduced recoil loading?

I'm not sure. The article didn't get specific regarding the load. This post was definitely tongue in cheek so I'm sorry if I got you all riled up.

Personally, I subscribe to the "shoot more, talk less" camp. My record on responding to the versus threads should convey my opinion of them. (:barf:)

Ed

40SW
October 18, 2007, 08:27 AM
I believe Mr.Ayoob is a member here and not to put words in his mouth, but I think he would agree that shot placement and load selection are key, and neither the .45ACP or the 12ga is better than the other. The question is ,which one is better for YOU. X vs. Y threads are fun, but remember the first rule of a tactical engagement with a gun. HAVE A GUN.
After reading pretty much everything Mr.Ayoob has written, I think he would concur. Also, based on what Mr.Ayoob has written in most of his articles, he carries a subcompact Glock chambered in .357SIG, to the best of my recollection.

mavracer
October 18, 2007, 08:39 AM
Ultimate Extreme Tactical Ninja Teem SEEL Beer Bottles.
Carbon Fiber thigh holsters.
Slap a Exotic "Kills so fast they died yesterday" Label on the thing.
Comes with CCW Badge that has a Tack-Tickle knife built in that clips to pocket.
Even comes with a PGO attachement side saddle, Bazillion Candlepower light, Neck extension and rails all around the thing.
that there is funny Steve

40SW
October 18, 2007, 08:44 AM
:p I think he's trying to say that "tactical" doesn't necessarily equate to "capable".:p:p

KevininPa
October 18, 2007, 09:42 AM
Touch a nerve there maybe?

Dirty Bob
October 18, 2007, 10:01 AM
This is simply another example showing us that nothing is a death ray. Since I still can't buy a Star Trek Phaser II, I'll just have to remember to rely on shot placement and shooting until the threat is neutralized, no matter what caliber I'm using.

The only things that are 100% certain are Death and Texas.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

KevininPa
October 18, 2007, 10:11 AM
Even with a death ray, you still need shot placement.:D Remember all those little explosions when they missed? Imagine what your house would be like if you didn't hit the guy who broke in!:eek:

strat81
October 18, 2007, 10:15 AM
12 gauge 00 tactical buckshot
I think that means it was black or carbon fiber. Possibly both.

40SW
October 18, 2007, 10:15 AM
http://www.star-trek-voyager.net/ship4/handweapons_index.htm

MrBorland
October 18, 2007, 10:15 AM
Touch a nerve there maybe?

Well, after having been on THR for quite a while (19k posts!), I imagine ol' SM has seen quite a few of these "VS" threads. They are entertaining to read (sometimes), but they do get old and I can't recall many (or any) that were helpful and based on sound logic. To me, they're kinda the THR "tabloid".

sm
October 18, 2007, 10:51 AM
esheato,

Internet does not alway convey communications well.
Your sharing and posting was fine.

Just I still expect someone to post "Get a Glock", or "HK woulda done better".

We keep getting a cycle of new folks, some not raised around firearms and really want to be a part of the Firearm community.
These folks don't need umpteen bazillion threads of "versus" to clutter the learning curve.

The other new bunch are the ones that do not want to be a part , instead disrupt, inflate egos, and share what they played on Enhanced Figment of Imaginations.
I mean they can hit a joystick in nano seconds and rearm in record breaking speed and outsmart Evil.
A Real Live Girl says "Hi" and they freak out and have to call in for a Med Vac.

Others are Anti's that are members just stirring up the pot.

Just me, I think we need a Tree & Limb sub-forum , let the Fence sitters holdup score cards and rate the hangings.
Might be fun, attract more Fence Sitters to Pro Gun.
"This is my friend Becky, she is new to THR, can she slap the horses butt to watch the Anti hang?"

"Hi Becky! New Fence Sitter gets to slap the horse's butt" Slap!


Reduced Recoil has not impressed me one iota.
Oh, I really hate it when the little rubber ball dealie bounces back.
Just me maybe, just I am allergic to incoming projectiles.


Just my luck someone will ask Sisal vs Nylon Rope for hanging.
or
Which horse is best for hangings...Elm or Oak tree limbs?


Someone do a thread on a kid shooting a tin can with a new .22 rifle or something...
Show a lady hosing with a Pink STI
Need more pics of a guy with a new kid and wearing a goofy T Shirt.
'My kid can dirty a diaper faster than you can do a mag change".

Something...

40SW
October 18, 2007, 10:54 AM
"This is my friend Becky, she is new to THR, can she slap the horses butt to watch the Anti hang?"

"Hi Becky! New Fence Sitter gets to slap the horse's butt" Slap!

:p:p:p

You get the award for the funniest response this month.
I am still laughing out loud. :p

KevininPa
October 18, 2007, 11:15 AM
Personally, I don't participate in VS threads because I carry .380's. Guess I don't need to tell you about the flak I get. I believe in the theory of carrying what you're good with.

BigG
October 18, 2007, 11:19 AM
Heck, tell me something I don't know. :neener:

Wheeler44
October 18, 2007, 12:39 PM
Just my luck someone will ask Sisal vs Nylon Rope for hanging.
or
Which horse is best for hangings...Elm or Oak tree limbs?

Hemp rope is best

mules rule for hangin's

The old oak tree fer sure

walking arsenal
October 18, 2007, 12:56 PM
This "Versus" Crap everyone keeps posting it total BS!
I have asked, more than once, Staff put "Versus" thread into the "No Topic Allowed" here on THR.


+1 SM

Right up there with the "I had terrible service at The range/walmart/gun shop" threads.

Geno
October 18, 2007, 12:58 PM
First and foremost, the perp had already been struck in the stomach. That caused damage and blood loss. But, a gut shot, while painful does not typically create instant stops. Nor do arm shots. Re-read his words:

"it hurt so bad I thought I'd better give up."

That is what I call informed decision-making. He chose to stop. He could also have chosen to persist and tolerate the pain.

These are the reasons we are taught in our Tactical and Advanced Tactical Shooting courses to fire into the torso, and center-of-mass. The central nervous system is the sole means of stopping an attack independent of the perp's intent and decisions.

Doc2005

MCgunner
October 18, 2007, 01:14 PM
Well, you know what they say, small bullets may expand, but big bullets won't shrink. Wait, 12 gauge, .77 caliber.....hmmm...never mind. I guess those guys that argue shot placement might have a point???? Ya reckon????

I personally saw a fellow that walked into the ER at Brazosport Memorial Hospital hit point blank in the stomach with a 12 gauge. He drove himself to the ER while holding in the remains of his guts.

Hauptmann
October 18, 2007, 01:18 PM
What was the shooting range? What was the suspect wearing? What was the shotgun load used? Lots of questions with few answers here. Little snipits of information from a war story are to be taken with a LARGE grain of salt. There are plenty of actual shooting reports from LE agencies that the FBI uses in ammunition evaluation in which companies like Federal Cartridge, Speer, and Winchester use in testing their ammunition.

Keep in mind that the 00 Buck has its best level of penetration up to 15 yards, after that the velocity of the pellets gets much slower with much more reduced penetration. If this perp was shot at 20-25 yards and the cop was using lead pellets, penetration could of been weak enough to barely penetrate through the outer muscle tissue. Plus, it sounds like the cop's shot placement was poor with a hit to the abdomen.

The moral of the story, shot placement is very important along with using your equipment within its limitations. Up to 15 yards with the right 00 Buck load, you can expect a good level of trauma that surpasses any common rifle or handgun caliber available. Beyond 15 yards, it's hard to say.

Geno
October 18, 2007, 01:19 PM
It is fair to argue that a .22LR through the spine will create a faster stop than a 12 gauge to the gut. Shoot a perp through the earlobe with a .50 BMG and see if it stops the attack. Of course in the movies, a .45 Long Colt once flipped the bad guy head-over-heals...remember, The Quick and the Dead. :neener:

MCgunner
October 18, 2007, 01:20 PM
Up to 15 yards with the right 00 Buck load, you can expect a good level of trauma that surpasses any common rifle or handgun caliber available.

Handguns, sure. But, after cleaning a few deer hit with a 7mm remington magnum and a 150 grain Sierra Game King moving 3150 and packing over 3300 ft lbs at the muzzle, well, I might argue the rifle thing.

Mainsail
October 18, 2007, 01:28 PM
I think it has more to do with placement in this case. The perp decided to stop because the arm shot hurt. There are a lot more nerves in your arm than in your belly. If it was reversed, and he took the .45 to the gut, he would still have kept fighting until the buckshot hit him in the arm, at which point he would have given up because it hurt.

rantingredneck
October 18, 2007, 01:31 PM
First and foremost, the perp had already been struck in the stomach. That caused damage and blood loss. But, a gut shot, while painful does not typically create instant stops. Nor do arm shots. Re-read his words:


Quote:
"it hurt so bad I thought I'd better give up."

That is what I call informed decision-making. He chose to stop. He could also have chosen to persist and tolerate the pain.

My line of thinking exactly. He was probably thinking if he didn't give up the cops' shooting abilities were likely to improve :). After taking a 12 to the gut and a .45 to the shoulder causing a wound necessitating amputation, yeah I'd stop. Who's to say what would have happened had the 12 not come first though?

Viking6
October 18, 2007, 02:13 PM
I'll drop in on the "vs" threads from time to time but they don't often show a true winner or better solution but they do point out some particulars of a tactic or weapon system that I wasn't aware of, which is a lot. I have owned a few guns over the years; more than the general population I would guess and not as many as a lot of folks here. I'm no expert but I know what I like. I visit this site and TFL before it for 65% information and 35% entertainment. I think the firearms community is big enough to accommodates us all, even the antis if nothing else but situational awareness. Dumb threads are easy enough to ignore or back out of, once you see where they're heading. So ladies and gentlemen keep posting your flame seeking threads and the more informed also.

Okiecruffler
October 19, 2007, 04:54 AM
So are all people who argue for "shot placement" saying that the 45 to the arm trumps a 12ga to the gut?
As far as the "vs" threads, I've seen this board go from a great group of TFL refugees to a giant pack of ravenous weasels. I've decided in this life (after one too many keyboard commandoes called my carry gun a POS) there are very few people I respect enough that I would allow them to influence my opinion. And on the internet I can count those people without taking off my shoes.

Marshall
October 19, 2007, 07:42 AM
Geeze, I'll stick with my 12ga's at close range. Some dude with a name says jump and people ask how high.

massad ayoob
October 19, 2007, 08:13 AM
If memory serves the load was Wincester reduced recoil buckshot, 8-pellet 00.

Lesson, obviously, is that shot placement rules. Gut shots don't have a great record of putting people down.

Jim Watson
October 19, 2007, 08:30 AM
I can't get my 12 ga in my holster and I can't buy an ounce and a quarter of buckshot for my .45. You have to do the best you can with what you have to do with.

jefnvk
October 19, 2007, 09:44 AM
Gut shots are not a fun thing. However, at least with deer, they'll kill, just not in any record time.

That said, I also think that while painful, pellets hiting soft flesh is probably going to hurt less than a slug through a bone.

40SW
October 19, 2007, 12:04 PM
In the end, its very simple. I would not feel undergunned with a Glock 21 with 13+1 rds of .45ACP, nor would I feel timid with a Mossberg 500 tactical cruiser 12ga with 5+ rds of 12ga -00 Buck.
I have no idea how many followup shots would be necessary with either. Each engagement has its own unique set of variables. , All I care about is that I have satisfied the primary rule of a gunfight. (BRING ENOUGH GUN). Both are adequate for predators of the bipedal extraction.

sm
October 19, 2007, 01:27 PM
Mas wrote:
If memory serves the load was Wincester reduced recoil buckshot, 8-pellet 00.

Thank you sir!

I personally have a problem with that particular loading, along with the other reduced recoil loadings.


Okie - To me, you are the "go-to" person on not only 311s, other platforms as well.
Yeah, I know what you mean about some changes over the years.


Shot Placement is the key.

Like Jim Watson, I am having a devil of a time finding a IWB for a Shotgun.
All I can do is be as one with what I have concealed as a handgun, even if that handgun is not a 45ACP.

Tom C.
October 19, 2007, 03:06 PM
Shot placement is key, but after reading of Jim Cirillo’s writings on gunfights in the 60’s, the .30 Carbine with expanding ammo was better than a 12 ga. with either buckshot or slugs.

.45&TKD
October 19, 2007, 03:11 PM
I think this is an example of it hurting far worse when a bullet hits and breaks bone.

jay43
October 19, 2007, 03:27 PM
i'll take my 12guage slugs over a 45 any day

sb350hp
October 19, 2007, 03:46 PM
Shot placement. Bone and dense muscle verses soft flesh. Ever gut shot an animal? Ever headshot the same animal?

HD- 12ga. military/leo are using hi cap shotguns for room clearing just makes more sense.

SD/CCW. Hard to put that 18" dbl in a holster

mljdeckard
October 19, 2007, 04:19 PM
Massad Ayoob would never tell you that if you have the choice, you should leave the shotgun and take the handgun.

Okiecruffler
October 19, 2007, 04:56 PM
You wanna know what hurts bad enough to stop an attack?


DEATH

James T Thomas
October 19, 2007, 05:10 PM
The conclusion for inductive logic is never absolute, and when you assumed
"I guess," you made an incorrect judgement.

Although the logic given by Mr. Watson's post, though not absolute, is in the reliable range.

Dallas Jack
October 20, 2007, 02:35 PM
Think I will stick with my 12 gauge with 00 buck for home defense. And the .45 for CCW.
Dallas Jack

borgranta
November 18, 2012, 10:29 AM
Shot placement is key, but after reading of Jim Cirillo’s writings on gunfights in the 60’s, the .30 Carbine with expanding ammo was better than a 12 ga. with either buckshot or slugs.
00 buck to the head would have been an instant stop.

borgranta
November 18, 2012, 10:31 AM
Think I will stick with my 12 gauge with 00 buck for home defense. And the .45 for CCW.
Dallas Jack
I agree but I have heard horror stories about some people still being a threat after chest hits.

Water-Man
November 18, 2012, 11:09 AM
sm,

You should 'change locations' because you sound like you're drinking way too much coffee and spending way too much time shiftn gears. Or whatever.

danez71
November 18, 2012, 11:25 AM
5 yr old thread!

481
November 18, 2012, 12:23 PM
Wow. Quite a ressurection.

Robert
November 18, 2012, 02:50 PM
Bad zombie thread, back in the ground with you.

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