[627PCFan]

I am in the market for a muzzle loader. I have looked at the Knights and the T/C's but my preference would be towards smokeless. I have only found 3 manufacturers, one being Savage which is nice and accurate but just doesn't seem to be an appealing purchase. The other 2 were mom and pop machine shops that were selling home grown muzzle loaders for smokeless that I would trust my worst enemy to fire. Any recommendations? Would it be safe just to get a T/C and work up slowly with smokeless?

[gunboat57]

I hope you are not considering using smokeless powder in a rifle made for blackpowder. That would be very unsafe for yourself and bystanders. The pressures generated by smokeless powder can exceed the strength of barrels made for lower blackpowder pressures.

If you mean blackpowder substitutes, that's different. Pyrodex and Triple 7 are safe in rifles intended for blackpowder.

[627PCFan]

I wanted to stay well away from BP and try to stay away from the substitutes because of the required cleaning and corrosiveness of the powders.

[gunboat57]

I can understand what you mean by cleaning. When I'm done shooting my TC Hawken I do the hot soapy water routine. It's tedious, but when I'm done I know my rifle is really clean.

I'm not sure who else besides Savage makes a smokeless powder ML these days.

[K.A.T.]

JR, DO NOT use smokeless powder in a TC muzzleloader! I would not put myself in danger using anything built by mom and pop unless they could show me some test results proving it was safe.

If you want to use smokeless powder buy the Savage.Think about it ,this is an explosion taking place in your face.:eek:

[ArmedBear]

I wanted to stay well away from BP and try to stay away from the substitutes because of the required cleaning and corrosiveness of the powders.

Just let your caravan of native bearers clean your guns, just like they clean the carcass for you.:rolleyes:

Seriously, cleaning a black powder rifle is not that big of a deal. The only big deal is that you have to do it sooner rather than later.

This stuff makes BP cleaning not much different from smokeless: http://www.rb-17.com/

Or just use something else. Sooner or later, desirable "primitive season" tags will probably not allow the Savage, and if you live in a slug-gun state, just use a good slug gun.

[DixieTexian]

777 isn't as bad as the other substitutes for corrosion. I have left my bp pistol for several days in the humid South before cleaning without any rust that wouldn't come off with a normal cleaning.

[ArmedBear]

The thing about a muzzleloading rifle is that there's not that much to clean. It's a straight barrel with a primer/cap hole.

A BP revolver has a lot of nooks and crannies that get filled with crud, and you usually shoot it 'til it freezes up from fouling. That's a PITA to clean, though it is still fun to shoot.

A single-shot muzzleloading rifle, once you get used to a new cleaning procedure, is not that big of a deal.

[TexasRifleman]

A BP revolver has a lot of nooks and crannies that get filled with crud, and you usually shoot it 'til it freezes up from fouling. That's a PITA to clean, though it is still fun to shoot.

Cleaning BP for me is more of a religious experience anyway.

I simply LOVE a nasty filthy BOP revolver. I can spend HOURS alone with it in peace and quiet.

Sink, hot water, brush, oven, some bore butter and a bottle of cabernet.

THAT my friends is an evening well spent :)

For rifles? It's really not a big deal at all I find.

I see that a lot of people want to hunt with BP simply to get an extra couple of weeks of hunting season. You might start out that way, but you'll get the BP fever eventually!

[ArmedBear]

Oh yeah, but my wife got me a membership at an indoor range down the street. They're open 'til 9 on weeknights, and they allow black powder.

Now coming home at 9:15 with a dirty cap and ball revolver when I have to work the next morning is sometimes a bit less than spiritual. Otherwise, I agree, it's a religious experience. I often wonder how they cleaned those things in the field when soldiers, cowboys and Texas Rangers carried them.:)

[Joe the Redneck]

Rock against drugs, alcohol free beer, some free cigarettes, smokeless muzzle-loaders with electronic actions.

Sigh

Joe

[tkendrick]

Every day......

I become more and more convinced that:

in-lines are a bad idea.

BP subs are also a bad idea.

That Fish and Game Departments nationwide might as well just add an extra couple of weeks to their hunting seasons. If it wasn't for them, these abominations wouldn't have a following.

I just today got my latest American Rifleman in. Read the article on the CVA Electra. Looks impressive, sounds impressive.

I hope everyone that buys one gets jungle rot and their toes fall off.

[riddleofsteel]

If you want an inline muzzleloader to hunt the special seasons get the Savage and don't look back. If you are into replicas or antique technology get a T/C sidelock and shoot REAL blackpowder with powder and ball or conicals.

NEVER---------NEVER................

Shoot smokeless powder from ANY muzzleloader not certified by the maker for that purpose. Do some reading, Savage, NULA, SMI, Bad Bull, all good names in the smokeless powder MZ game.

As for me I LOVE my Savage. My son still shoots my 25 year old T/C Renegade but nothing shoots like a Savage.

[627PCFan]

Why the general dislike of inlines, and then to extend the dislike to smokeless? I hunt in MD, not much of a deer hunter as I don't have the patience, but it seems to me everyone should want to hunt with a center fire rifle, but law prohibits it so you would want a firearm that comes as close to a center fire to make up for it. Inline smokeless ML would be as close as possible.

[ArmedBear]

it seems to me everyone should want to hunt with a center fire rifle

See, not everyone thinks that everyone "should" want to hunt with a center fire rifle all the time, or "should" do anything. Furthermore, a lot of us live in places with specific extra "primitive" seasons, similar to extra archery seasons.

Using a gun specifically designed to replicate a centerfire's performance during those special seasons is, ethically speaking, like using a pistol during archery season. More states are recognizing this; the more people push the legal envelope, the more likely the guns will be banned altogether. If you want to hunt the special seasons in the PNW, you have to use a sidelock now.

If you don't really want to hunt deer, and you don't really want to use the equipment allowed for the season, I'm not sure why you want to go through the effort at all, but that's your own business.

Now, why not shoot a rifled barrel and sabot slugs from a 12 Gauge? Performance and accuracy can be excellent and quite rifle-like with the latest offerings, and you can use a modern repeating firearm that requires no special effort to clean, load safely, etc. That would be my choice during regular season, if I lived in one of the states that don't allow deer rifles to be used to hunt deer, and I've been shooting muzzleloaders for 25 years.

It sounds like you've never shot a muzzleloader, and that's fine. But BP has a serious advantage over smokeless: it's bulky, so loading loose powder is easier to do accurately, and because of its burn characteristics you can't overload it and blow up the gun. You'd better be damned sure you know exactly how much powder you're loading in a smokeless muzzleloader. Damned sure.

I do understand the desire to use a smokeless muzzleloader to maximize performance when your state doesn't allow a regular rifle.

The dislike of the things, and inlines, etc., comes from states like mine, where "muzzleloader" means "special deer season for primitive weapons." It doesn't come from states like yours, generally.:)

[riddleofsteel]

So where do you draw the line?

Should muzzleloader seasons be flintlock only? Or why stop there, how about matchlock.

Every improvement in muzzleloading firearms was for better, more reliable ignition. If you are going to put restrictions on it to keep it "primitive," then why not flintlocks with holy black, patch and ball only? Some states have tried this with mixed results.

Modern does not mean bad. If you think that a smokeless muzzleloader gives you that much advantage over a high performance BP weapon, side lock or not, then you might want to go do some reading on long range, high performance BP guns. The main advantage for smokeless is cleanup and the lack of eventual rust if you miss something.

The fact is that if you are going to allow percussion guns then a 209 primer is basically the same thing.

If you are going to allow BP subsitutes then Pyrodex is basically smokeless powder with unneeded extras to make it smoke and burn dirty. Triple 7 is a high energy sugar compound as is just as far from BP as nitrocellulose is. In fact smokeless powder (nitrocellulose) is the ORIGINAL BP subsitute. The fact that I pre weigh my loads and store them in plastic vials does not speed up the process much. It keeps me from blowing up anything. Anyone that thinks BP allows you to pour as much down the barrel as you want.....go ahead.

Sabots with pistol bullets are the modern version of using cloth to seal off the bore and shoot an undersize lead ball, in the modern version the ball is conical and jacketed.


Long argument short, as long as it loads from the muzzle you get one shot. The next shot means loading in the field...from the muzzle. The rest is your prefference. If you preffer the puff of smoke and the smell of sulfur, the particulars of percussion or flintlock then have at it. For me I am interested in shooting and hunting that extra week during the rut here in NC not scrubbing rotten egg black funk out of my weapon.

IMHO

YMMV

;)

[ArmedBear]

So where do you draw the line?


Well, you have to draw it somewhere, or else open the season to all firearms, which either makes sense or doesn't, depending on where you are, hunter density, deer density, etc.

And the line can be drawn wherever. States have magazine limits for semiautos, rules against semiautos, archery seasons, laws against hunting with nightvision scopes and lasers, laws against motorized decoys, laws against baiting game and limiting the use of dogs, special rules for handicapped hunters. They're all "arbitrary" in some sense.

Why shouldn't inlines with 209 primers be allowed? Why should they? There's no universal truth you can invoke to answer either way.

If you think that a smokeless muzzleloader gives you that much advantage over a high performance BP weapon, side lock or not, then you might want to go do some reading on long range, high performance BP guns.

For me I am interested in shooting and hunting that extra week during the rut here in NC

Yup. And that confirms the prejudice that people who originally worked to get primitive seasons have against people who use modern firearms during those seasons.

As long as there are plenty of deer in an area, hell, who cares anyway? Maybe there shouldn't be special seasons at all, in states where deer are more a road hazard than a limited resource.

In areas where a muzzleloader tag is distributed to the lucky by lottery, like my county (much bigger land area than what y'all call a county), and it's a whole separate deer season, they can limit the firearms however they want, just like archery season. There's no justification for complaining if you get a special tag when there's nobody else hunting, and it's understandable that those who are willing to go along with the spirit and letter of the law wouldn't be overly welcoming to those who find "loopholes". Many experienced centerfire hunters aren't too thrilled with guys who shoot deer at 650+ yards with magnums, either. Not everything legal is considered "okay" in hunting, or elsewhere in life.

A lot of it depends on the deer population density. What seems illogical in the Southeast makes sense from a game management perspective in the Desert Southwest.

However, you won't win any experienced BP shooters over by whining about cleaning. It's really not that big of a deal. I'm going on a hunt where we're using original and replica 1870s BP .45-70 single shots by choice. Nobody's worried about it.

[627PCFan]

Btw the muzzle loader is for the g/f. We are in Calvert co in MD, where in the fall its unlimited does because of the development boom in the last 10 years, deer overpopulation is a huge problem, even in the DC area. I look at it with the eyes, of mow them down as many as you can until state management says enough is enough. With current numbers in MD, it would be a few years off. Id like to see specialized qualification for people to shoot centerfire rifles in Shotgun counties. Regardless, its still a toss up between the T/C, and the Savage. Too bad Benelli doesnt make one, Id be all over it. :banghead:

[Harve Curry]

I think the SAVAGE is the Only muzzleloader made for smokeless powders.
Some states don't allow smokeless powder muzzleloaders.
I guided one hunter who had one when they 1st came out. it shot well and he got mule deer at 150 yards using Hercules (Alliant)2400 and a Barnes sabot bullet.

[Misfire99]

I shoot both bp and smokeless. I think it's much more of a pain to clean smokeless the bp. I use soap and water for bp. I use Simple Green in water with a brush. Then rinse with plain water and brush. Then dry patch. Then grease with bore butter. Four strokes and you are done.

With smokeless the solvents to get the copper out will take the skin off your fingers if you let it stay on to long. Smokeless cleaning stinks. Yea I was raised on hoppies no9 but it still stinks. And it takes forever to get them really clean. Many brushes and many patches to get it clean. If you shoot corrosive ammo it's even longer. BP is the way to go if you don't like to clean your guns.

[smokemaker]

NULA, or New Ultra Light Arms, makes a smokeless gun too. My father has one, and it is a really nice rifle, both to carry and to shoot.

The folks in this BP shooting forum are quite opinionated, but in the end, shoot what you want to. I shoot traditional round ball guns, minie ball guns, "modern" inlines (the first inline came out in the late 1700's) and smokeless ML's. Love them all, and I don't feel guilty about it either.

[BP Hunter]

I've been hunting with the Savage 10ML with smokeless powder for years and have taken good game with it. The furthest animal I've shot was a coyote at 176 yards. I feel so confident with that rifle that I don't feel comfortable with any other hunting rifle. Since I moved to WA from TX, the laws haven't allowed to hunt with it. Crazy rules:cuss: