[Bear2000]

Hey all,

I just got my Lee Classic Turret and my excitement is wearing off quickly. For some reason, when I resize my .223 shells they become too small for the bullet (.224 Hornady) to sit in. Before they're resized the bullet fits in nicely. In addition to that, I've had two stuck shells that entailed disassembling the die. This involved hammer taps (okay thumps) to get the deprimer pin out and then a vice and griptites to remove the shell. The resizing pin did not want out.

Any advice to a newbie?

Thanks!

Bear

[Bear2000]

In other words, there's no flair. Is that right?

[RecoilRob]

Hey Bear! The rifle brass needs to have the mouth deburred or slightly chamferred to ease the bullets entrance. Boat-tails seat a lot easier than flat base because of the bevel doing the same thing as the chamfer. Hit each case and take the sharp edge off the inner surface and the bullets will slide right in. You need a couple to several thousandths of neck tension to hold the bullets properly so it sounds like the dies are doing the job properly.

Your resizing problem sounds like a lack of lubrication sticking the shell in the die. What are you using for lube? I've used Franklin Arsenal spray from Midway with good results, as well as RCBS lube on a pad, and Imperial Sizing Wax for the really tough sizing jobs. Never came close to sticking one with the Imperial but I HAVE stuck a case or two with the spray lubes. Got to get plenty on them and then give it time to evaporate the carrier before sizing them.

Don't be discouraged man! This reloading deal has a lot of 'learning curve' built in and you'll get going just fine once we get over these little bumps.

[Redhat]

I started out my first rifle rounds (.223) using the Lee lube. You also have to put a dab inside the case neck. Lee recommends using a q-tip for this application. I never had any stuck cases.

Good luck!

[Bear2000]

Thanks Recoil. I'll pick up a deburrer tomorrow and will try the lube inside the case neck. I may need to replace the depriming rod, which no longer can be extracted from the tightening bolt at the top of the dye.

Anyway, I won't give up. Lee's instructions just made it seem so easy. Install dies - "Now you're ready to load." Heh.

[rino451]

How and are you trimming the cases after resizing?

I'm lazy when it somes to lube so here's what I do. Dilute RCBS lube 4 or 5 parts 90% or better alcohol to 1 part lube in a spray bottle. Spray down your cases adn roll them around making sure to get all sides. Let the cases sit (I let them overnight usually) to allow the alchohol evaporate. That's all I do. I haven't had to worry about the case mouths at all. Resize, trim, debur, an chamfer, tumble and load.

One thing, periodically clean the expander of the Lee size die - I can accumulate a ton of junk over time. I went so far as lightly polishing mine.

[Bear2000]

You know, I did skip several of those steps. I went right from resize to bullet seating (skipping powder charge for now; just getting the dies in right). I just don't know why the bullets won't fit in after resizing (lubing in the case didn't help). I guess I need to deburr them.

Does deburring always come after resizing?

-Signed, clueless.

[strat81]

Pick up some Imperial Sizing Wax. It is not very messy, even though you use your fingers to apply it. It has the consistency of lip balm (Chap Stick) and wipes off your fingers with just a rag or paper towel. Just swirl the case between your index & middle fingers and thumb then size the case. I drag my index finger over every 2nd or 3rd case mouth to get a little lube there. Remove the case from the shellholder and put it in a bucket, jar, etc. Do 50, 100 or however many. Once you're done, you'll need to remove the lube. You can either use a tumbler, wipe them, or my choice: spray them with brake cleaner. A few quick blasts does it and they dry quickly.

Now that you've resized, you might need to trim the case. If so, trim to the proper length. Clean the primer pocket and remove the primer crimp if necessary. Flip the case over and chamfer and deburr the mouth.

Then prime, charge, seat, and crimp.

[Bear2000]

...until I can find someone to come over and show me how to use the press and reload properly. I've never been very good with this kind of thing, and after a couple of hours on the phone with several tech support people, just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Yes, my lubing probably needs work, but I don't think that's the problem. The dies are just not resizing the cases properly. The powder charge die is supposed to add a slight flare so that the bullet can be placed and seated. It doesn't. In fact, the resizing is making the opening too small. Moreover, the powder charge die is crushing the cases. If I back it off any more, it the mechanism won't turn.

What a mess. Anybody live in Orange County, NC who wants to make $50 by giving me a tutorial? I'm not going to be able to do this on my own and maintain my sanity, that's for sure.

[Bula]

Hey Bear, have you checked out the 'how to' videos on the Lee website? I found them pretty useful with my initial setup.

[jfh]

If you belong to a gun club, check in there. If you shoot at a range, ask around. The reloaders I know personally are always helpful, and as you can tell, online reloaders who post are more than willing to help.

Having said that--I am about three hours behind you. I'm an experienced pistol reloader, but I have never loaded rifle. I picked up the components for .223 yesterday, and I will be doing the sortout on your press's junior--the standard Lee Turret, updated to 4-die.

As I learn some stuff here, I'll post it and hopefully that will bring you up to speed, Bear2000.

For now--it is clear you have the powder-through die misadjusted. And, I just thought of something--is that the universal / Rifle charging die?

Jim H.

[Bear2000]

Jim,

I'll look forward to any and all information you might have. As far as I can tell, the two set-ups are very similar, at least in terms of the basic dies.

You're right - the powder-through die (which is the universal Rifle charging die) is misadjusted, but I've backed it up to the point that I'm not sure the case is lifting the powder dispenser arm high enough.

I'm going to the club tomorrow for my CCW course. I'm going to post a note on the bulletin board asking if anyone would be willing in giving me a lesson. I did suggest that the club hold a "Loading" workshop. I'd certainly pay to participate in one.

Bear

[RecoilRob]

Bear, the Lee Universal Charging die does NOT expand/flare the case mouth. NO bottle-neck rifle die sets flare the mouth. You MUST chamfer the mouth to allow the bullet to expand it as you press it in. It takes a fair amount of pressure to expand the case mouth when seating bullets. That tension is what holds them securely.

The charge die is only supposed to guide the powder into the case and shouldn't touch it let alone crush it. Adjustment is definately in order here. Don't try to get it to expand the mouth, only drop the powder into the case.

Question: Do you have a 2 die or 3 die set? If it is a 3 die, you have a Factory Crimp Die as the third one. Is it possible that you are thinking that is the powder drop die? Sorry, I don't mean to ask stupid questions but I'm trying to help here.

And, trying to set up a turret or progressive press the first time around CAN be frustrating for sure. If you remove the turret operating rod you can convert the press to a manually operated single stage and I'd recommend loading that way for a while until you get everything set up properly and comfortable with the process.

Another Question: What powder measure are you using? Is it the Lee Auto Disc?

If someone asked me how to start out reloading rifle rounds, I'd advise a single stage press, scale and powder measure. Batch processing the cases: Resize all, trim/deburr/chamfer all, prime all, charge one-seat bullet in that charged case...repeat. Trying to go to the turret is complicating things so early in the learning curve.

[jfh]

RecoilBob: or others--

I've got all four dies in a 4-die turret, in the usual order: full-length Sizing / decap die, powder-through rifle die, Seater / crimper die, FCD die. IOW, I am assuming the 4-die paradigm holds for rifle--e.g., die 3 will seat / set LOA only, and the FCD will "crimp" / clean up the cartridge. Is that the correct "thinking" to proceed?

I'm checking the Lee Rifle Die help videos--which are under the Single Stage Press category. As you've recommended--and which I always do with a new cartridge setup--I've removed the index rod and am setting up each die individually. So far, it's all familiar--but I'm really just at the first two dies.

With new cases, when do I worry about trimming/LOA? Can you do a simple list for us, Starting with new cases / taking the case out of the tumbler?

TIA--

Jim H.

[RecoilRob]

My last new case loading session involved Guatemalan 5.56 from Wideners. NICE stuff! Measured a couple hundred randomly picked from the 2K and the lenths were all within spec.

Proceeded to loading. NOTE: As I was loading boat-tails, I didn't bother to chamfer the case mouths. Have found that BT's work their way into the cases just fine even if the mouth is sharp edged or slightly dented (and this is probably more important to the ammo loaders than the down-range advantages the BT's have). If loading flat-base bullets, I'd recommend the deburring step for sure.

Oh, I tried a handfull in the chamber of my Bushy Varminter to make sure they were sized properly. New brass that is 'ready to load' SHOULD be sized properly. It is always prudent to check to make absolutely sure. The Guat checked out fine. And, some folks recommend sizing all cases before loading. Yes, some case mouths might be dented and slightly out of round out of the box. But, I don't think it is worth the effort to round them up with full length resizing....especially when using boat-tail bullets. They go in just fine. If flat-base are being used, I'd use a tapered punch or the like to expand the dented ones for seating...along with deburring/chamfering the mouths. Those flat bases need a little love into the cases..

Prime, charge and load after that. Pretty simple stuff.

Case length is only critical when you are roll crimping into the cannelure. Taper or FCD crimping will crimp regardless of the case length and, so long as the case isn't SO long that it encounters the leade in the chamber, the round will chamber and fire just fine. If they are too, too long, they might not release the bullet properly due to interference with the end of the chamber and cause high pressures. New cases should never be too long. After a couple of firings, they MIGHT lengthen and need trimming. The RCBS X-die has a shoulder to keep the case from getting too long. If you want to load and not worry about cases getting too long, the X-die might be a worthwhile investment.

Sorry for my 'simple list' turning into a novel. This loading dicipline isn't all that hard, but we must have some background knowledge working to keep the simple things safe.

[strat81]

You're right - the powder-through die (which is the universal Rifle charging die) is misadjusted, but I've backed it up to the point that I'm not sure the case is lifting the powder dispenser arm high enough.

I made this mistake with M43 charging with my lee powder die. The rifle charging die does not flair/expand the case. Only the pistol dies do. And, you only have to raise the ram high enough to activate the powder drop. I too crushed two cases using a "full power" handle stroke.

I'd help you bro, but I'm in the midwest. Good luck.

[George757]

[B]Bear / jfh[B],
Loading a boat tail .223 is similar to loading a pistol round, in that the base of the bullet will sit in the case, prior to seating. A flat based bullet won't do that, and that's normal. You have to guide the nose of the bullet into the seating die as you raise the ram. The die will keep the bullet centered as the case rises into the die. It's a little more labor intensive than loading pistol ammo, but I load .223 'flat bases' on the Lee Classic Turret and they come out fine. Try keeping your fingers on the bullet until it enters the seating die.

[jfh]

Thanks, you three--

As I went through my die setup, I found I had no real issues, and I may have spotted Bear2000's problem: I wonder if he had left the PTED 'funnel' in place. I e-mailed him about that--but haven't heard back yet.

So, I've made some uncharged cartridges, and they 1) are all crimped at mid-cannelure or higher, per Lee, and the crimp loods good--and they all drop beautifully in to a max cart gauge. The LOA is 2.255+--which barely fits in my (Brownell's) magazines. But, they do fit, and they chamber just fine.

My local reloading store recommended H335, so I'm going to see how the Auto disk sets up with that--I have an older aftermarket adjustable charge bar that has far more capacity than the Lee bar, so I don't think I'll I have to use the Lee (double) disk setup.

My 55-gr. FMJ bullets (new from Midway in 1990; 2.8 cents each--VBG) have a beveled bottom, so I find I am not worrying about getting the seating started. Does the (full-length) sizing die provide a slight funnel as it clears the cartridge?

In my situation, I am (for now) just looking for some plinking cartridges; they're for, of all things, a Kel-Tec SU-16C. It won't be shot much; it's a car gun / backup kind of package.

strat81: As I play with the Lee Auto Powder Measure and that aftermarket charge bar, I expect that I will be able to adjust the PTED die 'height' so that the finish of the charging side will be on a full upstroke--can that be done?

And, as George757 has pointed out, at least I have no issues for now on starting bullets--i.e., at least on new cases.

Thanks a lot, guys--I'm off to the bench again.

Powder Measure setup: A Pro Autodisk measure--the original Pro (old style hopper and chassis) with that aftermarket adjustable charge bar was assembled and the hopper filled half-full with H335. The H335 recipe is from the Hodgdon site, and in fact is on the powder bottle: a max load of 25.3 grains. I dialed in the bar until I got 24 grains on my Lee scale, then I checked that against my Midway cheapo electronic. The digital reported 23.9 to 24.0 grains. Several drops revealed a general run of - 0.1 grains; one was -0.2. IMO, the Pro spring return system should work fine, but remember to fine-tune the hopper attachment screws' tightness to minimize any hanging up or leakage.

question: can someone explain well preferences for full-length or neck sizing? Full-length resizing intuitively appears unnecessary if one uses the same carts in the same rifle.

Jim H.

[RustyFN]

Bear2000, I don't know what type of bullet you are using but if you use a boat tail bullet it will start into the case much easier. I had problem with non BT bullets and don't use them any more. As far as the bullet fitting tight after you resize the case , thats what you want because you need the neck tension. As far as your decaping pin sticking it might be set to deep and also the nut isn't tight enough that holds the pin for the pin to pull out of the die like that.
JFH, H335 meters great in my pro auto disk. I use the Lee pacesetter set with the FCD. When you guys set up your powder measure with the rifle charging die it will set up different than for pistol. Screw the die in with the measure on and run a case into the die. Keep running the case in and out adjusting the die down until the disk drops over the die hole. If you start out wilh the die to low you will be crushing cases. Trust me on that one.:D Welcome to reloading rifle and have fun.
Rusty

[strat81]

The die will keep the bullet centered as the case rises into the die. It's a little more labor intensive than loading pistol ammo, but I load .223 'flat bases' on the Lee Classic Turret and they come out fine. Try keeping your fingers on the bullet until it enters the seating die.
A big +1 to this! When I load 9mm, I can just place a bullet on the case and raise the ram into the seating die. With .223 and M43, I have to guide the bullet into the seating die as I raise the ram. It does slow the process down a bit, bit it sure beats picking 55gr pills off the floor! Oh, and be careful not to pinch your fingers.

they 1) are all crimped at mid-cannelure or higher, per Lee, and the crimp loods good--and they all drop beautifully in to a max cart gauge. The LOA is 2.255+--which barely fits in my (Brownell's) magazines. But, they do fit, and they chamber just fine.
Good, that's the way to do it. OAL is not as important with plinking ammo as it is with benchrest/target/precision ammo. I try to seat my .223 and M43 bullets as deep into the cannelure as possible (for a shorter OAL), as long as I am not below the minimum length.

My local reloading store recommended H335,
Yup, it's one of the most popular powders for .223. It is the commercial equivalent of WC844, the military powder used in 5.56 ammo.

As I play with the Lee Auto Powder Measure and that aftermarket charge bar, I expect that I will be able to adjust the PTED die 'height' so that the finish of the charging side will be on a full upstroke--can that be done?
I don't know, try it. I adjusted mine as per Lee's instructions. The rifle charging die can crush your cases; it is different from the pistol die. I just raise the ram high enough for the powder to drop and that's it. The Turret press lever/arm can give you a tremendous amount of leverage. Enough that you can crush a case. Much like priming on the press and sizing, you have to be cognizant of how the handle feels. For example, if you're priming and feel a lot of resistance, stop. You might blow a primer. For sizing, if it's rough to push the case into the die, it'll probably be hard to pull it out. Lower the ram, add some more case lube, and try again. For charging, raise the ram enough to see, hear, and feel the powder drop activate, then lower the ram.

can someone explain well preferences for full-length or neck sizing? Full-length resizing intuitively appears unnecessary if one uses the same carts in the same rifle.
Neck sizing only sizes the neck, full length sizing sizing sizes the entire case and the neck. Neck-only sizing can only be done if you're firing specific brass in a specific bolt-action rifle. Once it has been fired in that rifle, that case is now fireformed to that rifle only. Semiautomatic chambers (especially military rifles) are a bit more generous and the cycling of the action means that the entire case must be full length resized for it to chamber reliably.

[Bear2000]

With a lot of help from Jim and Rob and others here, I may have just resized and seated a bullet (and not crushed the case with the powder charging die - I'm not charging yet, of course) more or less correctly. The resizer seems to be opening up just enough of a funnel on the mouths of the cases to allow the bullet to sit vertically, but really only just. But I have at least figured out how to adjust the bullet seating die properly, even if it's not quite perfect. As for the final factory crimping die, well, it certainly works, but it almost looks as if it crimps too tightly.

Anyway, here are a couple of images - not perfect, but maybe someone can see if the crimp is too tight. The cartridge is very close to the same size as the factory loads from which the empty cases came. I suspect that the difference may be because of the soft-point Hornady 55 gr bullets I'm using - we're talking less than a mm.

Thanks again for all of your help!

[Steel Talon]

Bear

FWIW..

Make sure you're using the correct dies?

Peace
ST~

[tkcomer]

If you're using flat based bullets, lee makes a flare die just for rifles. It's main use is for cast bullets, but it can be used for flat based bullets that don't seem to fit just right in a case. It flares the top of the brass just a little to make seating a bullet easier. Without the case neck collapsing if you get it wrong. I use it on my cast 30-30 loads, but when I get around to loading my 223 rounds with flat based bullets, I'm going to use it on those also. The factory crimp die will remove the slight flair the expander die puts in the case. That die makes bullet seating so much easier.

[Bear2000]

Yes, I'm positive I'm using the correct dies. I went too heavy on my crimp and may need to seat the bullet a bit lower, but overall, I'm very close. Wish I had more time to play with it today, but I've got too much other work to do.

[strat81]

I went too heavy on my crimp and may need to seat the bullet a bit lower, but overall, I'm very close.
To ease the crimp on a FCD rifle die, just back the die out of the turret slightly. If you watch how it works without a case, the shell holder presses against the bottom of the die which closes a collet around the mouth of the case. How deep the die is determines the pressure on that collet and therefore the crimp. As for seating lower, I'd just screw the die in a little bit more and fine-tune with the knob on top.

Good luck!

[RustyFN]

Keep us posted Bear. I have a classic turret press also and think it's a great press. When you get these little bugs worked out the excitement will return.
Rusty

[Bear2000]

Thanks, Rusty.

It will take a little more tweaking, but I think I have the dies more or less in place. I'm now working on the getting the automatic safety primer installed. The problem is I only have a few minutes a day to work on this!

Bear

[Bear2000]

Well, after wasting a dozen bullets getting the dies set more or less where I think they need to be, I finally installed (probably improperly, but it sort of works) the saftey primer, primed a case, and loaded some powder. I just wanted to finally make some ammunition, and it appears that I was successful. I went with 23.1 grains of H335, 0.1 gr more than Hodgons suggests for starting loads (max is 25.3).

The finished cartridges all weigh within 1 gr of each other, which is more than I can say for the Ultramax .223 I have been shooting. They also appear to be the same length, and measure out with my ruler at just below 2.2". But tomorrow my digital caliper should be arrive so I'll know for sure. (FYI, you can buy the same Frankford Arsenal caliper that sells for $30 at Midway for under $15 on Ebay, shipped).

I am a little annoyed that the factory crimp seems to be scraping the bullets ever so slightly, leaving a very thin line across one third of the circumference. I think that may be because the die is off a bit. I also have not yet mastered the Safety Primer, which seems to hang too loosely and is just a pain to use. I must be doing something wrong, but inserting and then clicking in the primer with the flimsy plastic trigger has not been easy. I dropped at least a dozen primers while making five rounds.

Anyway, the point is that I made some ammunition. Whether it shoots or not remains to be seen. But I would not have gotten this far had it not been for your help and encouragement. And I'll tell you what: once you make one, you want to make another, and another. It's a lot of fun!

Thanks again for all of your help!

Bear

[strat81]

Uh Oh, He's Making Ammunition! :)
w00t!

Well, after wasting a dozen bullets
Get a bullet puller. Mine has paid for itself. Don't use pliers, you'll just scratch and/or squish everything.

The finished cartridges all weigh within 1 gr of each other,
No worries. Weigh some cases and bullets and you'll they differ from one to another. Plus, even if you overcharged your above-stated load by 1gr, you would not blow up your gun.

ou can buy the same Frankford Arsenal caliper that sells for $30 at Midway for under $15 on Ebay, shipped
Yep. Midway runs specials on those once in a while. I bet someone buys 100 of them and just resells them once the sale is over.

I am a little annoyed that the factory crimp seems to be scraping the bullets ever so slightly, leaving a very thin line across one third of the circumference.
Hmm, I've never experienced that in pistol or rifle. Follow the directions and make sure your turret is lining up (locking in place) properly.

I also have not yet mastered the Safety Primer, which seems to hang too loosely and is just a pain to use. I must be doing something wrong, but inserting and then clicking in the primer with the flimsy plastic trigger has not been easy. I dropped at least a dozen primers while making five rounds.
Mine swings towards and away from the press. It should be somewhat loose. The Safety Prime NEEDS a bunch of primers in it to function correctly. In my experience, if there are only primers in the neck and not the trough (for lack of a better term), they will not reliably feed onto the priming arm on the press and will require a few pushes of the button. As for primers "falling off", make sure the cup area on the priming arm is clean and dirt free. Primer dust and powder likes to accumulate there. Also, make sure the priming button on the Safety Prime lines up perfectly to the priming arm on the press. If it's askew, the primers will fall out.

And I'll tell you what: once you make one, you want to make another, and another. It's a lot of fun!
Have you had to prep brass yet? I.e., trim to length, chamfer, deburr, clean the primer pocket, and remove the crimp? That part of reloading is NOT fun. However, considering the amount of time it takes, you'll be more judicious with your trigger finger! :)

[Bear2000]

Well, I managed to find 20 minutes this morning to shoot the first 10 rounds I made last night. While the seven that fired grouped very well at 50 yards - better than the cheap factory ammo I've been shooting anyway - I did have three misfires. I'm not too worried about it. My guess is I may have mishandled the primer (I'm still having issues with the auto safety primer) or my cases were not entirely dry (I probably should have let them sit longer and using an alcohol/Lee lube solution to lube them). But still, I know that I'm doing something right. I'm sure it will get better in time.

As for the bullet puller, I have a kinetic hammer puller and have had almost no luck with it at all. I'm convinced it doesn't work. I've read the directions, watched the help videos, rap and bounce, and still nothing to show for it but some dents in my workbench.

[strat81]

As for the bullet puller, I have a kinetic hammer puller and have had almost no luck with it at all. I'm convinced it doesn't work. I've read the directions, watched the help videos, rap and bounce, and still nothing to show for it but some dents in my workbench.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=248400

[Bear2000]

That helped. The trick is simple: just when you think you're hitting it really hard, hit it ten times harder 10-20 times in a row. It'll come out! :)

I'm attaching a peice of ash hardwood that I used for my floors to my bench. It seems to work pretty well as a base.

How long can these pullers hold up under this kind of abuse?

[Steel Talon]

Hello Bear,

Dont forget the wrist snap action.. Also put a ear foamy in the puller it will save the bullet tips from deformity.

For my base, I use a peice of rail road track (anvil) with a piece of leather on top to strike my hammer on.

Peace
ST~:cool:

[RustyFN]

Well, I managed to find 20 minutes this morning to shoot the first 10 rounds I made last night. While the seven that fired grouped very well at 50 yards - better than the cheap factory ammo I've been shooting anyway - I did have three misfires.
Congrats on your first 10 rounds. Nothing like the feeling of shooting your own loads for the first time. Make sure you are seating the primers all the way in.
I also have not yet mastered the Safety Primer, which seems to hang too loosely and is just a pain to use. I must be doing something wrong, but inserting and then clicking in the primer with the flimsy plastic trigger has not been easy. I dropped at least a dozen primers while making five rounds.
I had some minor problems with the safety prime at first also. Benedict1 had a thread on how to set it up and after reading that and making a change it worked much better. It seems like I still have one get drug out of the cup by the push button thing so I made another change. Now I hold the cup part with my left thumb and my hand cupped so if a primers falls out it lands in my hand. I work the trigger with my right thumb and middle finger on each side and my index finger on top. It may sound like a lot to do but it is just as fast as the other way or faster once you get used to it and now I only have one primer miss the cup out of around 400. I am still loading at around 200 per hour using this method. It sounds like you are doing fine, it will just take a little time to get used to the machine.
Rusty

[strat81]

Oh, forgot to mention, I put a cheap rug under my press to catch those primers, lest they bounce all over the hard concrete floor and get lost.

[Bear2000]

The rugs is a good idea! I lost a couple tonight when I loaded up six more at 23.1 gr and six at 24.1. I'm still getting used to the safety primer. Benedict1's video helped, but it's still not a smooth operation. I'm almost wondering if I may have bent part of the (pretty cheap, I think) plastic trigger.

I'm also coping with the index moving another half turn when I bring the ram the way down to set the new primer after resizing. To rotate the head 1/4 to the next die I need to bring it down 3/4. But it needs to come all the way down to set the primer, and, on the way down, rotates the index just enough to move the powder charger die out of place. It's frustrating enough that I'm considering losing the index rod altogether for now.

Anyway, next step will be the Pro Powder Charger. I also need to figure out why three of the ten Winchester primers did not go off today. Sue at Kempf's Gun Shop, where I bought the equipment - excellent and very helpful people, told me she doesn't like Winchester primers herself and has heard of similar trouble. But 3/10 seems a little high.

Thanks everyone again for helping me along on this project!

[strat81]

For primers, make sure you don't handle them by hand very much. Also, it might be your gun. For 9mm, my Taurus will seem to light-strike and I can put the dimpled round in my Glock and it'll go off just fine. I use CCI, mostly. I had a lot of "dud" primers too in the beginning, mostly when I had to handle the primers by hand. Once you get the hang of the Safety Prime, you should be fine.

Your other option is to prime off the press using a hand primer.

[Redhat]

Bear,

What load manual are you using? I have never had a Win primer fail to go off, but I did lot's of studying and asking questions before I started to reload. I would also suggest you wait to increase from the minimum powder charge until you have the knack of producing reliable ammunition. I studied several reloading manuals before I even attempted to load: Speer, Hornady, Lee, then on to Nosler and the last one I bought...Sierra. RCBS also has good step-by-step information on their site (even though some of not might not apply to your Lee equipment).

The index can be adjusted. Take a look at the video on the Lee site.

[Bear2000]

RedHat,

I've been looking at the Lee and Speer manuals, but since I'm using Hogdon's H335, went with its recommended load - 23.0 gr (although I used 23.1 to compensate for any lost powder from scale to charging die).

I don't know why the three primers failed. While I've only shot 200 rounds from my Savage 12FV, I haven't had a single misfire. I'm hoping they were just duds or not set properly and don't have anything to do with my firing pin. But after shooting my reloads, I had no problem with 10 additional rounds today of the factory ammo I was using, so my guess is the problem was with the primers.

And Strat, I did handle a great many of them, that's for sure. That's probably where the problem lies.

[Redhat]

Were the primers flush or below the case head on the bad rounds?

[Bear2000]

RedHat,

I want to say flush, but to be honest, I can't remember. I just chalked it up to my incompetence and mishandling of the primers before they were set.

[Redhat]

Copy that,

Next time you load, make sure the primers are flush or very slightly below. If they aren't seated they may not go off. Also be careful not to apply too much pressure when seating the primers, that could be bad also. They should go in easily, if you feel resistance stop!

Were you using new brass?

[Bear2000]

Thanks for that tip. Sometime they don't go in too smoothly.

Actually, the brass I'm using is now probably twice fired - remanufactured UltraMax brass, although some is once-fired Remington.

Once I get the process down I plan on buying some nice new brass for some very nice loads. But I'll use what I have until then. Any recommendations on what kind and where to buy it? I just picked up 1000 55 gr FMJ BT Armscor bullets for $80.00 shipped, which I thought was a pretty decent deal.

Bear

[RustyFN]

Check this site out http://www.tntreloading.com/. I just bought some Hornady 55 grain FMJBT for $58 per 1,000.

[Bear2000]

Hey all,

I think I figured out why those three rounds (and one of twelve today) did not fire. Real simple - bad primers, maybe a bad lot. Tonight I was reloading a new batch of 20 rounds at 24.5 gr when I noticed one primer in the arm of the auto safety primer that had a brownish color to it. Now, even though I had dropped many a primer (I really hate the auto safety primer!), I did not reload the disk. I simply put the dropped primers in manually or right back in the tray they came in. At any rate, I took the safety primer off, shook all of the primers back into the tray, and, what did I discover? Three more (out of 30 remaining) had firing pin dimples in them! Huh? I know I didn't fire them! I just dumped one tray of 100 Winchester primers into the safety disk and never reopened it. The only conclusion I can come to is that somehow factory tested primers managed to get into a lot that was packaged. I know that I did not inspect every single one of the rounds that I loaded, so it's quite possible that there were more and they ended up in my first two batches. Given that I found some previously fired primers in the disk, I can't think of any other possibility. Lesson learned: check the primers before dumping them in the disk, and then before firing them!

Anyway, I had better luck today. 11/12 rounds went off today, and although I wasn't happy with the groups I shot at 100 yards (the bullets are soft-tipped Hornady 55 gr), they did all land within 3" of where they were supposed to. I also met a very experienced reloader at the range. He's reloaded for the special forces and just put together a .338 Lapua for a sniper at Fort Bragg. In short, the guy is a reloading guru. He also very generously offered to help and came by the house after we finished shooting and gave me some good tips (some of which I had heard here but not heeded, perhaps!), especially concerning case preparation. He also insisted that I not crimp for the bolt action. He showed me all of his .308 rounds that did not have a crimp and the .5" groups he was shooting at 200-300 yards. I'm going to take his word and try a few with no factory crimp, especially since I can't seem to lighten mine up enough. It seems that the bullet seating die is crimping ever so slightly anyway.

He also suggested I load in stages and remove the annoying (at least for me) index rod from the turret press. I did. I just loaded 20 more rounds in stages and was a much happier camper. In fact, I may get a single stage press for rifle ammo and keep the progressive turret for reloading 9mm. One thing's for sure - I will be priming by hand and ditching the auto safety primer for the foreseeable future! I just can't get it to operate consistently. I'll have to figure it (and the auto pro powder charger) out sooner or later, but for now, I'm going to keep it simple.

Thanks again for all of your help. It's coming along now!

Bear

[Bear2000]

...apparently that's the kind of crimp I'm now using. Much lighter. I took the factory crimping die off the turret for now.

What do you think? Again, these rounds are being fired in a bolt action...

[strat81]

At any rate, I took the safety primer off, shook all of the primers back into the tray, and, what did I discover? Three more (out of 30 remaining) had firing pin dimples in them! Huh? I know I didn't fire them!

Wait a minute, are you saying that used primers were in your box?? I'm not calling you a liar, but pics would be appropriate. Check the rest from that box and see if there are others. If so, give us (and the manufacturer) the lot # so we can check.

[Bear2000]

That's the only thing I can think of. I poured 100 primers into my saftey primer disk, and of those, three did not fire when I took my first ten rounds to the range. Yesterday I noticed a discolored (brownish actually) primer in the arm of the saftey primer. It looked peculiar, so I shook them all back up into the disk/tray of the primer and notice three more. I turned them over and found dimples in them. Although I had dropped several primers, I simply put them back in the original tray or loaded them manually. But all of the old primers from were in the catch tube.

I just have no idea how they got in there otherwise. My only explanation is that they were tested primers that somehow got packaged. Because I know I didn't open up the saftety primer disk again.

I'm not discounting the possibility that somehow old primers got into the safety primer. I did drop several of the new primers on the floor when I first loaded the tray. But I don't know how old primers would have been there with them seeing as the one thing that has worked flawlessly has been the catch tube! All I know is I had 3-4 dimpled primers in my safety disk and 3 rounds that didn't go bang on Friday. I've talked to several people and they said it's the strangest thing they've heard, and frankly, I can't explain it myself.

As for the lot number, I bought just one box of 100. I'll see if I can find it (I may have tossed it). I also tossed the used primers (I know, no evidence, but I may be able to find them at the bottom of the garbage can - they didn't go in the catch tube).

Swear, I'm not making any of this up! Dimpled primers in my saftety disk. Don't know how they got there. They could very well have been mine from previously shot factory ammo. I just don't ever remember putting them in there, and can't imagine why I would have.

[strat81]

I bought just one box of 100.
You MUST be new here. ;)

[Bear2000]

..yes, I am! That's what this thread was about! I bought one box to start with - $2.95. But I just picked up 1000 primers the other day and another pound of H335. I'm getting there, give me time. :)

[RecoilRob]

I started priming everything with a RCBS hand prime tool many years ago. You dump 100 primers into the feed disc, shake and the little bitty ridges on the disc flip all of them pellet/anvil up, and then you can inspect them all very closely and quickly.

The tool has great feel and you never need to actually touch a primer. Haven't ever had a dud using the tool. Lee makes a similar hand primer that does the same thing.

Batch processing is a good thing for now! Once you get them all going BANG, it will be time to start bumping the powder charge upwards. My experience has shown that the faster you drive them (within safe limits) the tighter they will group.

Your Savage should shoot under an inch and I'm sure it will. You most likely will be up to 26grns or so when it really is tighening up. Good Job Brandon!

[jfh]

I finally have about 99% of the handgun LD rounds I want to chrono this spring built, so I have turned back to learning .223 reloading.

I have an updated Lee standard turret--e.g., 4-die update, and a safety prime. It's set up with a 4-die configuration--full length resizing die, rifle charging die, Seater (and crimper as desired), and FCD.

I've just removed the indexing rod (i.e., single-stage operation), and I have checked die adjustment.

The question is: is there any reason I cannot tweak the rifle charging die up high, so the powder measure is activated completely only at the top of the charging stroke?

[FWIW, I am using 55-gr boattails I bought twelve-fifteen years ago from Midway. With the charging die adjusted "to the top", the Lee Autodisk measure activates completely, the bullet sits nicely in the case, and I have built three-four dummies to adjust the seater LOA and the FCD so a crimp is just visible.

These will be shot for "plinking," so to speak--the only .223 I have right now is a Kel-Tec SU-16C that is a project gun--i.e., a go-to / SHTF / car gun. Although I understand they are acceptably accurate, I am NOT trying to build sub-MOA ammo: I just want to learn rifle reloading now....]

In the long run, I might want to build 100 rounds at a time, and after I really understand the procedures I might try auto-indexing. I have a Lee Autodisk (older standard version) set up for rifle use only--that is, I have an older aftermarket adjustable charge bar that will nicely measure the loads with H-335. (I tried this out last fall--it's consistent +- 0.1 gr, IIRC.) Right now I do not intend to use automatic indexing--I still need to sort out and learn the rifle loading workflow, from trimming on up through priming.

It seems to me, though, that adjusting the charging / #2 die so the press operates as it does when I do handgun automatic indexing makes sense. That is, tonight as I tested the first case in the #2 die, I promptly crushed because of my "muscle memory" for using the PTED handgun dies. Adjusting the charging die up so I can use it the same way I am habituated to ought to avoid problems.

Last question for now: Will somebody be so kind as to list a workflow here for what I will call two-step (rifle) reloading--i.e.,

1. Rifle case prep through primer insertion, and

2. Building the completed round,starting with a sized / primed case.

Thanks in advance, guys--

Jim H.

[Bear2000]

Hi Jim,

I started this thread way back when and have since come a long way with my little Lee Classic Press. I started with .223 and am now loading 9mm and .308 as well. In general, I reload .223 single stage. I remove the index rod altogether and charge with a the Lee Perfect Powder Charger (not the autodisc). I'm only making 20-30 rounds of high quality match grade ammo for my bolt gun, so this is fine with me. In fact, I haven't had much luck with H335 in the autodisk - I could never get the charge I wanted. But with 9mm, I use the autodisk and try to go as quickly as I can. And as far as I can tell, the autodisk, which delivers Bullseye and Vithavouri N320 very well. It doesn't seem to take much to engage, either, and can be seated up pretty high. In fact, I think mine is, because when I first started reloading I had the die seated too low and it crushed a few cases. But I found that it just needs to pop up a bit and I seem to get a full load.

I don't know if this answers your question. As I said, I didn't have much luck loading .223 semi-progressively with the Classic, so I moved to single stage, which is fine considering the ammunition I'm making.

[jfh]

Thanks, Bear2000--before I posted today, I re-read the entire thread and recalled the various dialogues.

As for the autodisk: while I need to re-confirm the consistency, it worked fine last fall--but note that I have an aftermarket charge bar, not the LEE one. It's machined aluminum, finely finished, and with a sufficient capacity for the .233 charges with H-335. And, I do have a double-disk kit on hand to install should this bar be problematic, not to mention an as-yet-unused PPM. So, for the moment, I think I'm good to go for charging cases.

You did confirm that you've adjusted the charging die the way I propose to / have done--thanks.

Jim H.

[RustyFN]

Hi Bear, I hope you are enjoying your classic a lot more now than you did in the beginning.
Hi Jim,
The question is: is there any reason I cannot tweak the rifle charging die up high, so the powder measure is activated completely only at the top of the charging stroke?
That is exactly what I do. I set the die low to begin with when I first started and crushed a couple of cases. I set the die so that when the handle is down and the ram is at the top of the stroke then the cavity is centered over the drop hole in the powder measure.
Last question for now: Will somebody be so kind as to list a workflow here for what I will call two-step (rifle) reloading--i.e.,
I will work in batches until the case prep is done. I work single stage but leave the indexing rod in, I just dont lower the ram enough to let the ratchet get into the twist in the rod. Here is my order of loading 223.
1: Clean the brass.
2: Size and deprime 500 to 1,000 cases.
3: Tumble for 5 minutes to remove lube.
4: Check, trim, chamfer/debur.
5: Prime all of the cases single stage with the safety prime.
6: Charge, seat the bullet and factory crimp.
With number 6 I run each case through all three dies until complete. I don't use much crimp. It's more like I do with 9mm, just enough to get rid of the bell so they will feed and chamber. When I get into stage 6 I am making around 300 per hour. You just have to pull the handle an extra time to bypass the sizing die. I hope this helps.
Rusty

[strat81]

The question is: is there any reason I cannot tweak the rifle charging die up high, so the powder measure is activated completely only at the top of the charging stroke?
No, there is no reason you cannot do that. In fact, I have since done that. I had to sacrifice a piece or two of brass, but it's good now.

As for charge bars... I hate the Lee Adjustable Charge Bar. I can't get it to throw consistent charges no matter what powder I use. I use the double disk kit for .223 and it is very consistent with H335 (ball), AA1680 (ball), and RL-7 (short stick).