Ice Bullets


PDA






Timthinker
October 18, 2007, 09:12 PM
Recently, I watched a strange sci-fi movie that might provide some amusement to our readers. This film concerned a group of futuristic time travelers who went on a prehistoric hunt armed with some unusual rifles. According to the film, these rifles fired nitrogen ice bullets capable of killing large creatures. Yes, the idea of ice bullets is an old urban legend, but I thought it might provide a useful diversion from some of our more serious topics. So, quit worrying about the 5.56mm round and place your order for a real man's gun. After all, if an ice bullet can stop a dinosaur, then it can satisfy your needs.:D


Timthinker

If you enjoyed reading about "Ice Bullets" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Big Boomer
October 18, 2007, 09:46 PM
On one episode of Mythbusters they busted it...

the naked prophet
October 18, 2007, 10:02 PM
Wasn't that "the sound of thunder" or something like that? Lamest movie ever.

RKBABob
October 18, 2007, 10:03 PM
Yeah, Mythbusters already tried the ice bullet... as well as frozen meat bullets.

Cool show.... check it out.

Ice Bullet Part One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ov1gNP_h2M
Ice Bullet Part Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZu1fyukxro&mode=related&search=

Novus Collectus
October 18, 2007, 10:08 PM
I think he is talking about solid Nitrogen. Nitrogen freezes at 63 Kelvin. I believe it is much lighter than ice and it might be much more brittle as well. Frozen Krypton might be better because it is heavier.

.45Guy
October 18, 2007, 10:13 PM
Pykrete works with super colibri type loads:
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/aguy123/1Carcano-1.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/aguy123/1Test2.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/aguy123/1Test1.jpg

esmith
October 18, 2007, 10:14 PM
I saw this in a tv show once. They used it to kill someone so when they got shot it melted so there wasn't a trace to the killers.

Bartkowski
October 18, 2007, 10:18 PM
Can't watch the videos on youtube posted, didn't they prove it to be false?

eldon519
October 18, 2007, 10:25 PM
Pykrete in a sabot would work. It's just saw dust and water, but it's much tougher and stays frozen longer. The US looked into making a aircraft carrier out of it.

And don't rely on the Mythbusters to disprove things. They may prove things are possible from time to time, but just cause they can't get something to work, it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Novus Collectus
October 18, 2007, 10:26 PM
I think pykrete would leave wood pulp as evidence.
Frozen Nitrogen or frozen Krypton would most lilkely not show up because Nitrogen is in the atmosphere in abundance and Krypton is chemically inert which means once it sublimates it should escape into the atmosphere leaving little or no evidence.

Grandpa Shooter
October 18, 2007, 10:36 PM
Ice and wax both work with primers for practice loads. Jordan did the wax and I tried both.

RKBABob
October 18, 2007, 10:47 PM
Can't watch the videos on youtube posted, didn't they prove it to be false? Yup, they busted it. They used normal water, frozen in a liquid nitrogen bath. Problem was, by the time the bullet hit the target it was reduced to a spray of icy water.

They also tried frozen gel, and frozen ground beef, figuring that either of these items could also 'disappear' and not be noticed as evidence... but this caused little more than a flesh wound in their ballistic jello dummy.

Thn they went off on a weird tangent, and began developing compressed air umbrella guns.

Big Boomer
October 18, 2007, 10:48 PM
They might fire but the point was could they be deadly?

Answer: No

A blank to the temple would be more effective.

zxcvbob
October 18, 2007, 10:56 PM
Mythbusters used a small caliber rifle to test the ice bullet thing. A better test would be a .44 or larger pistol bullet.

Timthinker
October 18, 2007, 10:58 PM
Naked Prophet, you should be a movie critic. Yes, the movie was A Sound of Thunder and it proved a box office flop. But the point that amused me the most was the notion that frozen nitrogen bullets could inflict massive damage. If you recall, a member of the time travelers exploded a solid block of metal with a single shot. Small wonder I call Hollywood by another name: Hollyweird.

If any of our members can recall another outlandish movie plot involving sci-fi guns, I would appreciate reading it. A little humor is good for the soul.


Timthinker

Jim K
October 18, 2007, 11:00 PM
When you folks develop the time machine, let me know. I don't want to hunt dinosaurs, but I want to have a chat with Sam Colt about buying the old junk from the Paterson factory.

Jim

NeoSpud
October 18, 2007, 11:05 PM
The US looked into making a aircraft carrier out of it
According to the History Channel, it was Britain.

goldshlagerxx
October 18, 2007, 11:10 PM
I have a one experience w/ ice projectiles. When I was in undergrad my roomates and I wrapped duct tape around a toliet paper tube, filled it w/ water and froze it. We then shot it out of our 'tater cannon and it punched a hole through both sides of our shed (which potatoes would just dent) and knocked a hole through our fence. I have a lot of respect as to what an ice projectile can do.

Novus Collectus
October 18, 2007, 11:11 PM
If any of our members can recall another outlandish movie plot involving sci-fi guns, I would appreciate reading it. A little humor is good for the soul. Runaway with Tom Selleck and Gene Simmons. The movie was based around robots, but it featured robot "smart" bullets.

Dithsoer
October 18, 2007, 11:17 PM
I once read of a similar idea using a tooth as a bullet, the idea being a hit man could shoot someone in the face with it and the "bullet" would just show up as one of the victim's blown-out teeth. Another idea used a shotgun shell with a frozen payload of blood and hair, the hair added I presume for strength. Check out this one: the same source mentioned shooting someone with a piece of meteorite muzzle-loaded in a b.p. gun! I guess in hopes of fooling investigators into thinking that it was a natural accidence.

Novus Collectus
October 18, 2007, 11:26 PM
How about a champaigne cork? That will really make them scratch their heads.

chris in va
October 18, 2007, 11:28 PM
Funny you guys mentioning this. I just read a book by Dan Brown called Deception Point. The villain 'special forces' unit carried firearms that used ice bullets derived from the snow around the area. Grab a handful, somehow the guns made the rounds.

230RN
October 18, 2007, 11:47 PM
Dumb comments from 230RN:

You suppose you could use ice bullets to clean the corrosives out of yer BP gun?

Somewhere I read a story where the victim was stabbed with an icicle. Puzzled the investigators no end.

Did the dinosaurs die from the bends?

Imagine lead-free shotgun shells with ice pellets? H3ll, it's cold enough goose-hunting anyhow, right?

Rock salt? We doan need no steenkin' rock salt!

(Figured I'd throw those out now so I could take the heat instead of some other poor schnook getting all embarrassed and ridiculed.).

Novus Collectus
October 18, 2007, 11:49 PM
Imagine lead-free shotgun shells with ice pellets? Shhhhhhh, keep it down, California might get new ideas......

Jim Watson
October 18, 2007, 11:54 PM
Well, it wasn't ice, but I recall a story line from the old Kerry Drake comic strip, of all things. A mobster managed to get a bullet shot from the hero's gun; patched it, loaded it in a smoothbore muzzleloader, and shot a competitor with it. Voila, instant incriminating ballistics frame job. I think that one could work if CSI didn't find the patch.

JWarren
October 18, 2007, 11:56 PM
OK... someone is REALLY going have to elaborate on the Ice/pulp aircraft carrier.


I've got a few guesses as to why the idea was scrapped.


-- John

jefnvk
October 18, 2007, 11:57 PM
The US looked into making a aircraft carrier out of it.

Believe it was the Brits. Made a scale replica of it in Canada somewhere, actually worked.

RKBABob
October 19, 2007, 12:00 AM
Mythbusters used a small caliber rifle to test the ice bullet thing. A better test would be a .44 or larger pistol bullet. Mythbusters revisits different tests, if enough people email them to suggest flaws in their tests... I'm too lazy to find the show's email address, though.

Erebus
October 19, 2007, 12:01 AM
I remember an episode of some show where the bad guy used ice bullets. And an episode of another show where a serial killer used icicles. Was a long time ago though.

JWarren
October 19, 2007, 12:06 AM
Believe it was the Brits. Made a scale replica of it in Canada somewhere, actually worked.


I'm just imagining how bad you'd have to screw up to be a sailor assigned to a boat MADE of ice.

-- John

NeoSpud
October 19, 2007, 12:11 AM
I was right:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/235665/2_million_ton_pykrete_aircraft_carrier_in_ww2/

Gunnerpalace
October 19, 2007, 12:29 AM
If anyone watched the episode you will remember that while they could not make them, Adam wrote a letter to the CIA about it any they gave the "cannot confirm or deny" piece. Interesting. (I would also like to point out Iam not a member of the Tin Foil Hat Club I just watched the show)

jefnvk
October 19, 2007, 12:46 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk

Scrapped due to budget allocation, not uselessness. The experimental ship took three summers to melt when left unmaintained.

Flyboy
October 19, 2007, 01:04 AM
I saw this in a tv show once. They used it to kill someone so when they got shot it melted so there wasn't a trace to the killers.
I remember an episode of some show where the bad guy used ice bullets.
Father Dowling Mysteries. I haven't seen that show in at least a decade, but if I found it on DVD, I'd snap it up.

Timthinker
October 19, 2007, 01:35 AM
The "ice carrier" was intended to provide Allied airpower against the German U-boat menace. Since Hitler did not have aircraft carriers, these ships were designed to defeat the U-boats. After the Allies overcame the German submarine threat in 1943, these "ice carriers" lost their reason for existence. In the Pacific, the Allies took islands upon which to construct airfields. Also, the American Pacific fleets included aircraft carriers from which they could launch devastating attacks upon Japanese airfields. So with the tide of battle turning against the Axis powers, these frozen airfields simply became interesting historical footnotes.

Regarding ice bullets and knives, these weapons occasionally appear in novels and movies to stimulate public interest. They are more successful in doing this than becoming effective killing tools.


Timthinker

Novus Collectus
October 19, 2007, 01:43 AM
How about using frozen methanol bullets? Once it melts the coroner would have no bullet and think the victim was drinking.

Wheeler44
October 19, 2007, 01:45 AM
I have an old gun digest around here somewhere with a fictional story in it about a gunsmith that solves a murder where the murderer collects a bullet from a match shooters range, makes a wooden sabot and fires it through an old muzzle loader. I'll look for it tomorrow.

230RN
October 19, 2007, 02:16 AM
^^^I have an old gun digest around here somewhere with a fictional story in it about a gunsmith that solves a murder where the murderer collects a bullet from a match shooters range, makes a wooden sabot and fires it through an old muzzle loader. I'll look for it tomorrow.

That's pretty clever. Maybe we ought to enlist fiction writers to work out really neat dramatic situations where microstamping doesn't work or can be defeated.

I'm sure CA defense lawyers would be interested in that.

Never No More
October 19, 2007, 03:26 AM
WHen I was a kid, my ole man made a mold and kept it in dry ice at the range.

HE fired them thru a Benjamin 22 cal air rifle.

Odd Job
October 19, 2007, 03:37 AM
IIRC the other film that had ice bullets in a large calibre rifle was "Most Wanted"

Kaeto
October 19, 2007, 03:41 AM
In an old Dick Tracy comic strip they had a bad guy use Ice bullets.

But I have to agree on the Mythbusters findings. The shock of firing would cause an ice bullet to shatter.

Robert Hairless
October 19, 2007, 04:02 AM
Nothing beats a PCR (Penetrating Cosmic Ray) fired from an Thunder Stick with an IAFF (Infinitely Adjustable Force Field). Only thing that will deflect a head shot from one of those babies is a Reynolds Alcoa beanie, which is why people in the know never go out without one on their heads.

Thunder Sticks are no longer legal in California: no one has figured out how to microstamp the PCR. Pity.

Jim Keenan knows what I'm talking about I bet.

Erebus
October 19, 2007, 04:14 AM
If trying to prevent any kind of ballistics analysis on the projectile is the goal pykrete might do the job. Would depend on how well it would work as an actual projectile.

skipjack_1st
October 19, 2007, 05:58 AM
Darn... I thought the CSI episode with the frozen beef burger bullet was cool. Now I find out it won't work...

Sheldon J
October 19, 2007, 11:25 AM
How about a different media, they make some golf T's out of a compressed starch that biodegrades when wet, so how about a starch bullet? Once there the moisture would turn it to mush.

230RN
October 19, 2007, 11:45 AM
^^^
I've always wanted to try golf tees out of my blowgun.

I was delighted to find that push-pins fly point forward (amazingly!) out of a blowgun and make good practice ammo. Also, if you pop a pesky cat or dog or skunk or noisy magpie (gr !) with one, all it does is sting the critter and all that's left is an innocuous little push pin that anyone could have dropped there. :rolleyes:

I only use black pushpins because they're much more tactical.

But they've got a real rainbow trajectory. You have to get really expert at range estimation....

woodybrighton
October 19, 2007, 11:47 AM
had a thread shot by a bic biro pen went through his arm.
:eek:
our hero discovered if you take a browning high power cock put a biro down the barrel pull the trigger biro will fly across room. this happily entertained him for an
hour (infantry soldier easily amused:))
mate comes off sentry duty hero shows him new game he pulls his loaded browning cocks it puts pen down barrel bang biro at warp speed goes through arm followed by 9 mm round.

both idiots get 28 days in jail :D

AJ Dual
October 19, 2007, 12:53 PM
The funny thing is that you can shoot someone with impunity with a soft lead bullet and a revolver, or bolt-action rifle, and leave very little forensic or ballistics evidence. All those other methods still show the aurhorities that the victim was shot by something. If anything, you're simply generating additional mystery that will garner the case more attention and resources put twoards solving it.

Honestly, unless the perpetrator leaves his wallet at the scene, or gets his face on video, 99% of crimes are solved by human information. Who talked to who, who saw who where etc. It would seem to me that unless a fingerprint or DNA is on file, the forensics are more to secure a conviction rather than idenfify the perpetrator.

That's why serial killers rack up such a body count. They don't talk to anybody, at least until they get so squirrely they feel the need to start writing 'zodiac letters' etc. to the papers.

Being aware of your surroundings and who knows what about who seems like a much better way to conduct "wet work" than exotic bullets.

Stephen21B
October 19, 2007, 01:05 PM
One thing I thought of when I saw the mythbuster's episode was instead of ice or meat why not a bone bullet?

cpileri
October 19, 2007, 01:10 PM
If I get a time machine I would show up as the defense attorney (who didn't show up) the day the Supreme Court decided against Miller re: NFA 34.

But that's a topic digression.
C-

Wheeler44
October 19, 2007, 01:11 PM
I have an old gun digest around here somewhere with a fictional story in it about a gunsmith that solves a murder where the murderer collects a bullet from a match shooters range, makes a wooden sabot and fires it through an old muzzle loader. I'll look for it tomorrow.

1986 GUN DIGEST page 112. "Sing a song of bullets" a short story by Reginald Bretnor

fletcher
October 19, 2007, 01:27 PM
On one episode of Mythbusters they busted it...
They got it right that the bullets won't work, but for the wrong reasons.

Phil DeGraves
October 19, 2007, 01:46 PM
Well, I did hear of a story once where a husband was found bludgeoned to death. The wife was cooking a frozen leg of lamb when the police arrived and since her husband was dead she complained that now no one would eat it, so the investigators stayed for supper and ate the murder weapon.

Ratshooter
October 19, 2007, 02:06 PM
Phil Degraves, that was an alfred hitchcock show with the cops eating the leg of lamb.

My uncle was a homicide detective on the Ft. Worth police dept. and he said that the lubaloy bullets from winchester were nearly impossible to trace back to the gun that fired them. He stated that these would keep you out of trouble. I've often wondered if that was why winchester stopped selling them. They are still available in .22 loadings.

He also said that in most murders that the gun was never recovered. Most of the murders he worked were solve from either eye witnesses or a confession from the shooter. He also said working robbery was much more dangerous. Robbers don't want to be caught and murderers killed the person they were mad at and weren't as likely to resist arrest.

Phil DeGraves
October 19, 2007, 02:14 PM
"He also said working robbery was much more dangerous. Robbers don't want to be caught and murderers killed the person they were mad at and weren't as likely to resist arrest."

I've heard that same thing. Most of the time itis a close acquaintance or family member and the act is committed in the heat of the moment. Then they feel bad about it later when they sober up.

One of Many
October 19, 2007, 03:04 PM
The Mythbusters show indicated that Ice Bullets shot from a Firearm were ineffective; that was because the heat of combustion of the propellant melted the projectile. They did not think to use an Air Rifle as the delivery mechanism, or a spring loaded projector; neither of these would cause the Ice Bullet to melt, so it is still plausible for someone to evade detection by using an Ice Bullet.

The acceleration of the projectile could be controlled to avoid premature fragmentation during discharge, and the velocity kept to a low value so that the projectile acts more like a stabbing instrument than an impact instrument. The shape of the projectile could be configured to stabilize the flight, by increasing drag at the rear, or by placing the weight forward in the projectile to prevent tumbling during flight. As long as the projectile has a penetrating point at the forward end, it could cause a massive blood loss as it penetrates the body of the victim.

The previously mentioned "tater gun" would serve as an easily disguised projector, and it could be disassembled quickly and discarded piece by piece in different locations on an escape route, without drawing much attention. A tank of propane from a barbecue grill would be innocuous, as would a bunch of pieces of PVC plumbing and the glue needed to assemble the projector. The igniter would be the most difficult component to make and to disguise, unless a simple flash hole and cigarette lighter were used to initiate the discharge. The most difficult aspect would be molding the projectile, and keeping it frozen until the time it is shot from the projector.

Phil DeGraves
October 19, 2007, 04:23 PM
I don't think a spring loaded launcher could deploy an ice bullet at high enough velocity or stability to cause a fatal wound. Ice doesn't have very good sectional density even if the ballistic co-efficient is good. Now a high powered air gun, that might be worth looking into.

M67
October 19, 2007, 09:16 PM
Would the saw dust in pykrete work on vampires?

mgregg85
October 19, 2007, 11:47 PM
they did the same paper patch trick in the movie Shooter.

Dithsoer
October 20, 2007, 12:13 AM
Just out of curiosity, how many firearms-related murders go unsolved anyway, regardless of the bullet used?

Ratshooter
October 21, 2007, 07:58 PM
M67, the sawdust would have to be from an ash tree. I think that would work fine. I guess you could put a silver core in it and and would do double duty for werewolves.

thisguy1157
October 21, 2007, 08:16 PM
Come on guys, you know better than this, the diameter of an unfired bullet is greater than the inner diameter of the rifling, and ice being a crystal doesnt take well to compression. Its shattered a fraction of an inch into the barrel. Then the fragments are easy pickings for the heat. Now if you could get the ice to survive the compression and combustion, it still hasn't the mass to do much of anything, or looking at a what 5gr projectile?? If you wanted to shoot w/o leaving ballistic evidence its easy, choose the right materials. It has to be heavy, compressable, and not traceable. Easy. Mercury, heavier than lead, its metallic so it will engage the rifling and get the proper spin, and will melt away and settle to the lowest part of the body. Easy enough.

.cheese.
October 21, 2007, 08:20 PM
I wasn't convinced from the Mythbusters episode.

1) What about air based?
2) What about ice structuring protein?
3) What about flash freezing so it doesn't crystallize?

I can totally see an ice-based projectile being possible.

akodo
October 21, 2007, 09:44 PM
ha ha ha ice bullet!

lets take away the whole firing it from a gun and just somehow have a magically flying high speed bullet.

First off, ice is 1/10th the density of lead, so this means much more surface area exposed to air, hence you are going to bleed velocity like crazy.

Second, as ice is so much lighter, even fired on the moon where there is no air to slow down the bullet, it is so light that it will have to go MUCH MUCH faster than a lead bullet to deliver an equal energy load to the target.

Ice, even Pykrete which is much stronger, is still not nearly as strong as lead, and we all know that varmint bullets need to be carefully constructed so that they don't fragment when flying at velocities in teh 3500 fps range. So if ice/pykrete has to go say 10,000 fps to have equal energy of a same sized 223 projectile, I just don't see it holding together. Even if it does, it won't be going 10,000 for long, it will drop velocity extremely quicky.

As mythbusters pointed out, using a large caliber handgun very very close would work...but so would stabbing someone with an icecycle.

The other option is to have a much much MUCH large than average ice bullet, this will allow it to have much lower speeds due to it's great weight. Also, with a 3 dimensional shape, ratio of surface area to volume decreases as size increases. Take a 1cm on each side cube, volume = 1cc, surface area = 6cm. 1cc volume = 1gram weight Each gram has 6cm squared exposed surface

Take a 100cm on each side cube, volume =1,000,000cc surface area = 60,000 each gram now has .06 cm squared exposed surface.

Hence the other option would be to get a 'bullet' the size of a large cantelope, this would allow sufficient mass at low velocity to do serious damage, as well as sufficient weight/surface area to retain it's original velocity for some period of time.

ladies and gentlemen, I suggest the ICE TREBUCHET! if you miss with that, run up and stab them with the icecycle. Remember, if you suck on the tip for a few seconds it can get very sharp.

akodo
October 21, 2007, 09:51 PM
besides, why do you have to 'leave no ballistic evidence' even in a JFK level assasination.

There is no uberdatabase of all barrels, even though some states are trying to go for that.

So you buy a brand new rifle, or better yet steal one from some guy's collection. Shoot the target, they find the bullet they still know jack. Sure, if they ever find the gun they can then fire another bullet from that same gun and compare, yup, match...but they have to find the gun first. So throw it in the ocean. And that is of course assuming the rifling has remained unchanged, which is easy enough to do by running a file down it.

So which is easier, leaving NO ballistics data, or leaving ballistics data that means nothing?

Steal the gun, shoot the target, file the barrel, deep sea the gun = much easier than designing uber air rifle ice mercury and sawdust bullet

thisguy1157
October 22, 2007, 04:40 AM
I never said it was practical. People asked, I answered.

230RN
October 23, 2007, 06:07 AM
akodo:
Ice, even Pykrete which is much stronger, is still not nearly as strong as lead, and we all know that varmint bullets need to be carefully constructed so that they don't fragment when flying at velocities in the 3500 fps range.

It's the RPM of high-speed bullets, not the velocity per se, which makes them blow up on the way to the target.

A bullet at 3500 fps from a 12" twist rifle will be spinning at 210,000 RPM.

Increase the twist to 10" and the RPM will exceed a quarter of a million RPM.

I think an icicle out of a crossbow is the bet bet.

Or a snowball out of a spud gun.

MT GUNNY
October 23, 2007, 02:48 PM
busted

If you enjoyed reading about "Ice Bullets" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!