[S&WKING]

I was looking at a few guns and the salesmen was talking about competitions and i thought it sounded fun. He pretty much invited me to one of the competitions but i dont have the gun or the right caliber for long range. So i was debating on one of these for longer range. I would like the caliber to stay around .30 and no 338

[Bartkowski]

What exactly are you thinking about, AR's?

[S&WKING]

i dont want an ar any more i want a bolt gun but the ar was just the opening of the subject

[esmith]

Commercial .308 ammo has one of the best bullet type selections which could pinpoint your needs. Also barrel life is longer as well than 300 win mag. There was a big thread that i was into yesterday about this.

[MCgunner]

7mm STW. Seven mm bullets have better BCs than .30. More load variety in 7 Rem Mag, but the STW moves out 300 fps faster.

[Bartkowski]

I choose other...30-06

And although the STW will be very flat, unless you handload, the cost of ammo will be a limiting factor in your range time, and the recoil will most likely not be pleasurable, assuming you have average recoil tolerances.

[MCgunner]

All SERIOUS long range riflemen reload. If they don't, they lose matches. Nobody said anything about hunting, so I'm assuming it's for target or match use? Of course, 300 win mag is very popular in such competitions and 7 STW isn't really, but I like the ballistics charts I've seen of the STW, pretty awesome caliber. If you can handle the recoil of a .300 win mag, the 7 STW shouldn't be a problem.

[esmith]

If you are going to really long ranges then you may even be interested in 6.5 cartridges. When handloading you can create a super high BC. At long distances you want higher BCs obviously over much faster shooting rounds.

[browningguy]

6 and 6.5 mm are what the winners are using in long range competition. Of course if shooting F-TR you are limited to .223 or .308, and in that case I would suggest the .308. My recently purchased rifle is a .243 which can be loaded with very high BC bullets, as can the .260 Remington and specialist cartidges like the 6.5-284. I normally hunt with 30-06/.308/7x57, so the recoil from the .243 is nearly nonexistant. I would also recommend the 26" barrelled guns, if you are shooting at 1000 yards that gives you a little leeway to keep the bullets supersonic.

To me the best entry level gun is a Savage 12 series, pick which model you like. I went with a 12 FV because I wanted to stick with a .243, later I'm going to get a barrel in .308 for shooting TR class. I went with a Weaver Grand Slam 6-20 scope which is on sale at Natchez for $277, and Burris Z rings. So with scope and rings I'm out less than $850, and it's starting to shoot tiny groups.

If you don't mind spending it all at once Savage makes the model 12-FT which is in .308 and already set up for shooting F-TR class, I've seen them selling new for $999.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/12-F-TR-Target-Rifle.jpg

[MCgunner]

There's the old, nearly dead, 264 Win Mag, a 6.5mm, but I bet the 7 STW will shoot flatter. There ain't that much better in 6.5 than 7.

Of course, when you really get serious about long range, think .50 BMG, but you said you didn't wanna go over .30 cal. :D

Of course, you're going to be choosing a class to shoot in if you're doing competition and that's something I know nothing about. I've shot some informal bench rest, but that's it. IDPA and IHMSA are other sports. Somehow, I got enthralled with handguns and never shot rifle competitions.

[Bartkowski]

Before we get to into it, does the original poster reload? We don't even know if he will be in the copetitions for real, or is just trying them out. If you don't reload I vote for the 30-06 and if you do, I still say the 30-06 or maybe like smith said a 6.5mm of some sort. I personally like the 6.5x55 swede for 6.5's, but there are "better" choices for long range, like the 6.5x284 and the like.

[S&WKING]

no i dont reload and i dont think we are all on the same page of competition it will be under 1000 more around 500-750 and what about the 6.5 grendel

[browningguy]

Now there is some very good information, now a .308 in a 22-24" barrel is looking like the ticket. Definately the widest range of match ammo available.

[Bartkowski]

The grendel is meant for AR style guns I believe, and I haven't really looked at it, but I am pretty sure that it would drop a hell of a lot at 1000yards. I'd take a loot at the 6.5x55 if you are interested in 6.5mm and reloading would be a wise choice should you decide to get real competative.

[esmith]

In your place you are probably going to want .308 as it has the biggest spread of long range match ammo provided. Its hard to be a long range shooter without handloading.

[YardVarmint]

The word "magnum" sells a rifle.

The word "skill" wins a match.

Get the .308 and get more trigger time and less wear on yourself and the rifle.

If you don't reload it's the way to go. Decent match ammo can be bought off the shelf for the .308. Notice I said decent not the best.

The 6.5's and the Magnums are for those that reload and are committed to the various types of long range shooting.

If you decide you like it than you can "upgrade" with more goodies and other calibers.

[S&WKING]

If i were to get a 6.5 grendel what gun would u buy the Alexander arms or the sabre defence

[Bartkowski]

I do not know much about AR style firearms and therefore cannot offer you help, but considering you do not reload and I have never seen ammo for that chambering I would look for something else. But in the end its your money, so don't let my ignorance of the AR's keep you from enjoying one.

[Jim Watson]

A good .308 and a budget for dollar a pop Black Hills match ammunition.

Browningguy and Yardvarmint are the most up to date of posters based on what I have seen at Long Range matches this year.

[Zak Smith]

about competitions
If you intend to shoot matches, the first order is to determine if the rules of the game influences the caliber choice (and rifle choice).

Comments on LR calibers here
PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART I: THE RIFLE & GEAR (http://demigod.org/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/)

[amper]

What are you trying to hit at "long range"? Paper, game, or people? How long is "long range"?

[George Hill]

.30-378 Weatherby Magnum.

[Taurus 617 CCW]

When I think of long range I immediately think of .50 BMG. As a second to that one, .338 Lapua Magnum comes to mind.

[ShunZu]

I don't remember seeing what the original poster stated regarding "long" range. That can be a relative term. Long range to some of us is 1500 yards...others, it's 1k. Yet others, 600 yards is a LONG way. Lotsa variables, and obviously, pet calibers and pet loads (yea USA!). None of the advice given the poster thus far is incorrect. Some of the loads, especially if he's going to shoot a lot, will require reloading unless 1) he's loaded himself, and 2) gets lucky and finds a factory load that's 100% compatible with his rifle's harmonics. I have my pets also... but won't bore anyone until we see what his intended range is, if he's planning on just jumping in with both feet without feeling the water, what the budget is, and what distance is available on his range for practice.

[SUBMOAS]

6.5x284 if you reload. If you don't .308 will be a good starting round for you. Remember a couple of things about shooting long distance. You can have the best round money can buy but, if you can't "dope" the wind, elevation and mirage you won't be any good.......

[Never No More]

Other:

Model 700 in 30-06

Been reloading for 40 odd years. My first deer was with an 03A3.

To old to change now.

Real easy to reload to. Just fill the case with IMR 4895 and stuff an A-Max 178 on the end :-)

[Gustav]

Among my favorite long range calibers are the .300 Winchester Magnum the 6.5 Swedish the 7mm Remington Magnum the .300 Weatherby the .308 and the .280

It always nice to be able to find off the shelf ammunition and not have to give up an organ to pay for a few cases of factory ammo.

There are other choices that are better for LONG range but they tend to be a little more spendy and hard to find and unless one is willing to handload costs can add up fast.

A higher ballistic coefficient adds up to better long range performance some calibers offer higher numbers and more choices in bullet weights and styles than others.

In a medium bore I would go with either a .338 Lapua or .338 Remington Ultra Mag

In a smaller bore (.30 caliber or less) I would pick one of the common .300 mags or the 7mm Remington mag as one may want to hunt Elk or Moose or Bear one day.

For shooting only targets and paper punching a magnum is not required.

For sheer fun I love my Old Swede Mauser it may not be the fastest gal in the race but don't tell her that.:evil:

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I presently have the 7mm Remington Mag but don't have all the distance in the world to shoot it in. There are ranges but from where I live it let's just say it would take a while to get to open country. Presently I load her down to acceptable and respectable levels for 100-200 yards.

[USSR]

I'm with Bartkowski, the .30-06 for .30 caliber, and the 6.5x55 for 6.5mm. I reload for them, and have been using both in 1,000 yard F Class competition for the past 5 years. With the .30-06, I use a 190SMK at 2900fps, while the 6.5x55 sends 139-142gr bullets at up to 2950fps. When looking for a long range cartridge, consider these 3 things: is quality brass (Lapua) available; is there a good selection of quality, high BC bullets available, and does the case have enough capacity to drive the bullets at a suitable velocity.

Don

[brasskeeper]

"500 yards and doesnt reload" also compition means many practice rounds Im thinking low recoil short action. 308,7mm-08, 243, 260.

[ieszu]

You could always go with the .220 RUM or one of the Dakota's..... either the 7mm or the .300.....

[SDDL-UP]

I like the 7mm. As others have stated they simply have better B.C. than .30 cal. bullets. A 180gr. Berger VLD at 2900+ FPS is about as good as it gets. The 7mm Rem. Mag. or anything of similar capacity will get it done.

The 308 Winchester is also a good round until it runs out of steam. What is your elevation? What is the maximum distance you want to be able to shoot?

[4fingermick]

I don't want to sound like a smartass, but if you were ready for a 300WM, you probably wouldn't be asking the question. Try a 308, I have several of both, but the 308 is real hard to beat, cheap, easy, accurate. You can pick up cheap but still very accurate used Palma style rifles from rifle clubs here, no doubt you would be able to get a good used one as well. When you have sorted out what you really want, you will probably not drop much money on it when you upgrade. I bought an old Omark/Sportco single shot target rifle for $150 and the target sights cost $100. It shot the Winchester factory ammo with the Sierra 155GN Palma bullet into 0.7 moa off the bench. Definetly $250 worth.

[CheyennePilot]

If you don't care for a .338 caliber, try the .300-.378 Weatherby Magnum.
I prefer the performance of the .338-.378.

[S&WKING]

500-750 yards is the more likely distance i will be shooting and at targets like steel animals and i will have to knock 5 targets off the rail in 30 seconds starting from chickens to rams

[Fatelvis]

308 w/ 175 SMK

[jlbraun]

What, no option for 105mm?

[aloharover]

I was thinking 16" :D

[everallm]

@S&WKING

Another possible option for 6.5 Grendel in a semi-automatic platform is the Robinson Arms XCR. Wolf are providing the ammo as well as Alexander Arms and Black Hills so commercial as well as reloading options are available.

Alex Robinson is currently taking input of what users want in barrel lengths and types for the round.

[Bartkowski]

try the .300-.378 Weatherby Magnum.
I prefer the performance of the .338-.378.

I would recommend you stay away from this caliber if you don't reload, haven't shot it, don't have tons of money for ammo, and don't like recoil and very loud guns.

Also for target shooting out to 1000yards, you obviously want a very accurate gun, and with the 500-1000 round barrel life, you will need to be able to afford new barrels or guns often.

You could always go with the .220 RUM or one of the Dakota's..... either the 7mm or the .300.....

You could, but the lack of ammo, and the barrel life is something that would turn me away from guns in those calibers.

[skinewmexico]

6.5x55
6.5x284
6.5x47 Lapua

See a trend? Unless you just want to get beat up by some magnum barrel burner.

[GunTech]

If you are shooting 308, I'd pick the 155gn Lapua scenar over the 175 SMK. The same BC, and the lapua can be pushed much faster. From my 20 inch 308, I can get to 1000 with only 34 MOA elevation from a 100 yard zero.

I'm building another rifle for tactival long range matches, and going with 6.5x47. The BC on the 6.5 is insane as long as you have a twist like 1:8 that will stabilize the heavies - 142gn SMK is 0.595, 144 Lapua Scenar at 0.636, 140 Bergers at 0.640. 6.5-284 is the ultimate LR IMO, but it is a barrel burner, and won't fit into an AI magazine. Plus Lapua brass is about as good as it gets.

YMMV

[cpttango30]

6.5x284 in a custom gun. or 308 or 7mm-08 in a noncustom gun.

[brian923]

it really seems like you have your heart set already. you seem to be asking a lot of questions pertaining the 6.5 grendel. sooo. do yourself a favor, and do some homework and BUY WHAT YOU WANT. it you buy something that everyone else says you need, you will never be TRULY happy with your purchase. make sence??

the 6.5 grendel is a very good round. it will out-perform the 308 out to 600 yards. and that being the distance you are shooting, i say it will be vary ood to you. i do not personally have one, nor have i shoot one. this is all based on months of research, and asking questions. i want one, but dont have to dough right now. i also have a 7 rem mag in the works, so i think that they long range nich is filled. for now at least.

i would say that the 24" grendel barrel will be the best at squeszzing all the potential out of the 6.5 round.

do you already have an AR-15 platefrom , or lower? if so, you can get the upper, grendel's very own DESIGNATED MARKSMEN upper, which is a 24 " ss barrel with all the bells and wistels. though this does run 2300.00$. thats alot, but if you are wanting to win in compititions, upi have to spend some money, tiem and lots of pratice pratice practice.

hope this helps, brian.

also, check out http://65grendel.com/ and go to the forums page. theres a lot of great guys there that will more then be happy to answer any question you have. i know, i have asked a lot there myself. brian

[GunTech]

6.5 Grendel will only outperform 308 if you slant the comparison like Alexander Arms does. They compare 6.5 Grendel using a high BC bullet (144gn Lapua Scenar at 0.635 BC) to M80 ball. The 144 LS represendts an extremely heavy for caliber bullet' For a fair comparison, compare the two with bullets of a similar BC, the 6.5 LS 144 with a BC of 0.636 and the 308 SMK 210 with a BC of 0.645

Reported velocity of the 6.5 Grendel with the 144 LS is 2450 from a 20 inch barrel. To reach that velocity with conventional propellants requires pretty high pressure (around 77,000 PSI with 28.9gn BL-C(2) according to quickload). 2265 is a more reasonable number

Calculated velocity of the 308 210 SMK from the same length barrels is 2300 fps. With a higher initial velocity and slightly higher BC, the 308 will have more energy at all ranges.

But if course these numbers come from an apples-to-apples comparison, not the slanted numbers Alexander Arms gives you.

Compare the 260 Remington or 6.5x47 Lapua to the Grendel for a real 6.5 head to head. Both leave the Grendel in the dust.

The only reason to pick 6.5 Grendel for long range sghooting is that you are restricted to the AR-15 platform. If you just need a semi auto, and want the AR style, an AR-10 in 260 will beat an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel in every way, and cost about the same. And the ammo is much easier to find.

[RugerOldArmy]

Hands down: 6.5x284

[brian923]

ya know, i did not know that alex arms did that. thank you for clerifying.

i have always been a fan of the time proven 6.5 sweed (6.5x55) people in europe use this round for hunting very big game. like moose. that gives you a pretty good look at this bullet and what it can do.

thanks, brian

[esmith]

Just to throw this in here. If you do not plan on reloading (and even if you do) in the future you are going to encounter many money and time expensive encounters down the road in long range shooting (That is if you are serious about it). You are going to have to put money down on a new gun, commercial long range ammo, Range trips if it costs you, and if you decide you want to get into reloading, then all the equipment necessary. Plus all the time you are going to put into this, as practice is needed. Im not trying to talk you out of it, but you probably don't want to put all this money down and then decide you don't like it.

[trstafford]

Why don't you take a trip to the range with you friend and see what the competitors are shooting. Some of them might even let you put a few rounds down range so that you get a feel for recoil of different calibers and rifle weights?

[Dallas Jack]

My choice would be a Remington 700 LTR in .308.
Dallas Jack

[USSR]

Why don't you take a trip to the range with you friend and see what the competitors are shooting.

+1. Having a poll where most guys who have never even shot LR and are just plugging their favorite cartridge tells you nothing.

Don

[Howard Roark]

Why don't you take a trip to the range with you friend and see what the competitors are shooting.

Amen brother.

Take a look at these web sites for some good info:
http://www.long-range.com
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/
http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html

[North of 49th]

7mm Rem Mag

[Water-Man]

.264 or .284

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

6.5-284 Norma.

Less recoil AND better performance AND cheaper to reload than the choices you mention.

Honorable mentions to .308 Win, .280 Rem, .25-'06, 7mm rem mag, 7mm STW, 7mm Dakota, 7mm RUM, 7mm WSM, .284 Win, .270 Win, .270 WSM, .264 Win mag, 6mm Rem, 6mm BR, and .243 Win.

[sprice]

I would say go with a .270 wsm but since you want a .30 go with a .300wsm- thats what i did :)

[Zak Smith]

Please do not resurrect long-idle threads (check the post dates) to add a trivial comment. There are always more timely threads to post in, on almost the same topic.