Help my boss pick out a "car gun"


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xsquidgator
October 19, 2007, 11:07 AM
My boss is showing an increased interest in a self-defense pistol, or even multiple pistol(s), maybe for his wife too. He might even get a CWP (I've encouraged him to do so whether or not he decides to carry, he may or may not). Since that's not certain though, a "car gun" or a "truck gun" is ok, doesn't have to be a CCW piece. Something for the center console, so basically open to just about any kind of pistol, and is why this is in this forum.

He's a central Fl cracker (40-ish) who's familiar with guns from growing up on a farm and hunts, but currently only owns "Fudd" hunting weapons and a .22 pistol for shooting racoons. I'm sure he can shoot ok and could handle any kind of handgun with a little practice.

So, here's a fun question, what would *you* tell him to get? He's not totally set on the round to use, I acquainted him with the basics of the "caliber wars" arguments for 38/357/9/40/45. To save time here, he and I went through all that and assume for the moment that all things considered, he's probably going to want some sort of wonder-9 pistol with high cap magazines. Once he gets used to whatever he gets, he might give the 9mm to his wife and get himself a 40 or 45 later (wouldn't most of us say the best choice is "all of the above" anyway?)

Here's the list I told him to consider, most of which are available in 40 and 45 as well, in case he changes his mind. For what he wants it for, I don't think there's a huge difference anyway between the calibers. These are not listed in order of preference.

-Springfield Armory XD series
-Glock 19 (G26 nice too but 'only' 10 rounds and pistol size is not an issue)
-Smith and Wesson M&P series
-Ruger P95 (I think that's the current big blocky Ruger SA/DA pistol? I have a P85 in 9mm and I've liked it ok)
-Taurus Judge, different category I know but they seem kind'a cool and surely a great anti-carjacking defense weapon?

I won several of these pistols (Ruger P85, SW M&P45 plus some wheelguns), and have at least held and looked over the rest. Would any of you feel strongly enough to definitely recommend any other gun? I've left off the more expensive options like HK and Sig because I've just never tried one, is the higher price worth it for this kind of situation?

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ojibweindian
October 19, 2007, 11:14 AM
Any one of those would be fine. I've a personal preference, in 9mm, for the CZ-75.

WinchesterAA
October 19, 2007, 11:26 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/SgtAryan/DSCF3703.jpg

doesn't that just scream vehicular carry?

tydephan
October 19, 2007, 11:38 AM
I would suggest:

- Glock 17 or 19 (whatever size he likes better)
- M&P9 (the swappable backstraps would be great for his wife.)
- XD9
- Sig P226 (if he isn't interested in polymer)

Also, let him take a look at the Beretta PX4.

I prefer the polymer guns because it doesn't bother me as much when they get dinged up and scratched in the vehicle.

Personally, I have a G19 as a "car gun."

Neophyte1
October 19, 2007, 11:45 AM
good choices

chemist308
October 19, 2007, 11:56 AM
I think bosses should be unarmed... :D

Seriously, you may want to be sure about about laws concerning firearms in vehicle first. Where I'm at you're allowed to iff you have a ccw. Otherwise the gun must remain unloaded (with firing pin removed, I think) and in a separate compartment of the car (trunk)--and no, they don't mean 'glove' compartment. So, lotta good it does there anyway...

xsquidgator
October 19, 2007, 12:05 PM
doesn't that just scream vehicular carry?

In FL that's ok, as long as you follow the law. Basically loaded handgun is ok so long as it's in a secured case, a snapped holster, or even a closed glovebox or center console, so long as there's some sort of cover or fastener that must be deliberately undone in order to access the weapon. No CWP needed, this applies to everyone in FL AFAIK (and I have read the Florida Firearms Law book :).

REPOMAN
October 19, 2007, 01:05 PM
Go w/ the Glock 17/19 IMO

strat81
October 19, 2007, 01:10 PM
+1 to Glock 17 or 19. They're low maintenance and not likely to rust, melt, evaporate, etc in the Florida humidity. Plus there's no safety to fiddle with and used ones are out there.

Papaster
October 19, 2007, 03:00 PM
yeah, the list of semi's you have there is just fine. I'd add to it a beretta Px4 or 92, as these he could also jump up calibers later on the same platform, and may have a wider range of appealing safety features (if he doesn't have a holster in his console, which isn't a bad idea to add). I'd stay away from the Judge. I like Taurus just fine, but that's not fitting his qualifications on almost any level. They are significantly longer (even with the shorter barrel) than any of the semi autos, and only 5 rounds. Better to stick with the semi auto, and something you can comfortably carry with one in the chamber. Carjackers won't give you a timeout to rack your slide, a feat that is troublesome in the confines of a car in a pinch.

KelTecian
October 19, 2007, 03:45 PM
For me, a 9mm isnt my choice for a "car gun". Only because I might want to duck down and shoot through a door or a windshield to defend myself. So a well built, weather resistant .45 or a .357 revolver would be my choice. In fact, I used to keep a Ruger sp101 .357 mag in my car.

slow944
October 19, 2007, 04:18 PM
Look at the Bersa line as well they make 2 different 9mm's and are moderately priced. I have the full size 9mm and it comes with a 17rd mag. They also make a 8/9rd CC 9mm. Have not fired it but it should perform as well as their other guns.

strat81
October 19, 2007, 04:25 PM
For me, a 9mm isnt my choice for a "car gun". Only because I might want to duck down and shoot through a door or a windshield to defend myself. So a well built, weather resistant .45 or a .357 revolver would be my choice. In fact, I used to keep a Ruger sp101 .357 mag in my car.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
9mm can hold its own shooting through such barriers. Personally, I'd go with .357Sig for shooting through miscellaneous "stuff".

sb350hp
October 19, 2007, 04:28 PM
Don't limit his options. Get him to a range where you can rent and shoot multiple models. Might find out he is wheelgunner.

What fits him? What is he comfortable with? etc etc.

xsquidgator
October 19, 2007, 05:09 PM
doesn't that just scream vehicular carry?

Heh heh, I was on another computer for my 1st reply and for whatever reason the picture didn't load when I replied. That DOES scream "vehicular carry"! Although I'm trying to imagine the flash and boom when discharging that thing inside a car - imagine if the windows were all up too!

xsquidgator
October 19, 2007, 05:10 PM
Thanks all for the info. I told him that Glock 17/19 seems to be recommended by others here, I like the SW M&P, and he should also look at an SA XD9 because a lot of people like those too. From the way he's talking it'll be a high cap 9mm for this purchase.

springmom
October 19, 2007, 05:21 PM
I've never gotten to say this before, but....

He needs to pick out his own gun :D:D:D (Sorry, that usually has the feminine pronoun in front of it.)

Men are just as individualistic about what feels right to their hands as women. Not every guy finds the 1911 grip and balance right for them, not every guy will like the Glock's ergonomics (Springfield XD is an alternative there, lots of folks like those). He should handle, and get to shoot if possible, revolvers, 1911's, and Glocks and/or XD's (or S&W MP's or whatever).

Offer to go shopping with him (and if his wife is looking for her own carry gun, this same advice does apply to her too). If he doesn't know all the questions to ask, you can suggest them, and if the price is ridiculously high on something, or if something is a good buy, you can supply that info too.

Happy shopping.

Springmom

Hawk
October 19, 2007, 05:42 PM
I believe that I read a press release from the VPC claiming that the EDM Windrunner or Barrett M82 make excellent car guns. In addition to cars, they can be used to take out Bradley fighting vehicles, most NATO main battle tanks and busses at ranges up to several miles.

All seriousness aside, Springmom is correct. He should pick his own. The SIG P239 in 9mm might be a good one to include in the selection process. I don't own one and don't recall ever shooting one but a co-worker in central Florida bought one for a car gun and seems very happy with it. I am happily surprised that it works well enough for him that he actually practices. I understand it's cheaper to shoot than either the EDM or Barrett. I'm not sure if Kissimmee is considered central Florida - if not, never mind.

MikePGS
October 19, 2007, 07:34 PM
I too would have to go with the G19. You don't have to worry about a safety feature that you might fumble with in case of an emergency (of course, some would say thats a negative) pretty low recoil, and sixteen rounds on tap, not that you would be needing anywhere near that for a self-defense situation in almost 99.9 percent of cases. Its also inexpensive in relation to other pistols (though someone recommended a CZ-75 which is even less, and should definitely be looked at, though i have no personal experience with such) and if its banged up a little you won't be too upset over a scratch or two. He should also keep in mind that he might not be the only one who might need it, so his wife should be included in the process. Of course whatever it is you'll still want a holster to prevent some gunk from jamming it at the wrong moment. On a side note, I know some might disagree with me, but i'd definitely stay away from the Taurus "Judge". While it does of course have an impressive spread, the actual round, a .410 loaded for birdshot isn't nearly as impressive as the .45 LC it carries. And that would most likely be too much recoil for the novice shooter. And last but not least, you should listen to Springmom's advice about shooting several different guns, because Springmom is always right :D

Lou22
October 19, 2007, 10:59 PM
If you want an inexpensive 6-shooter snub that you don't care it getting dinged up in the car, I recommend the Windicator. 28oz and kinda ugly, mine handles full-powered loads without a problem. A German company has been making them for years - and seem to be solidly built.

I got mine new for about $200 on an online auction site.

Lou

sm
October 19, 2007, 11:12 PM
He needs to pick it out.

That said, Police Trade in Model 10s were used often and recommended.
Low pressure round, being fired in confined space.
No Slide to hang up on interior of vehicle, easy to make sure safe, and so on.

This is what we tossed in the car for employees to use running errands and all, in addition to their CCWs.
Cars also had ice scraper , map and hard candy and cheap sunglasses.
I/we treated employees right. :)

My car gun was a Model 29 with full house .44 mag loads.
My Partner, and a few others chose the same.
In addition to our CCWs, Pump shotgun and Lever Action in 30-30.

Just civilians, needing a bit more than the normal car gun mind you.

WE had private lessons on all this as well...so I do recommend folks try before they buy, and get some lessons, continue quality practice.

jame
October 19, 2007, 11:34 PM
I have a brother in law going through some of the same decisions lately. He wanted to try a few out before he made his decision, so I left a S&W M18 (.22- 4" revolver), a Beretta 21A .22 pocket gun, and a Makarov. I did not leave a full sized .45 1911 or a .32 mag Ruger single action.

I left these guns with him, without ammo, for a week, just to allow him to play around with various gun styles and types. I wanted him to gain confidence in a handgun, without the newbie fear of a gun with ammo at his side, per his request. This last week was not ammo specific, but type specific. Did he feel the need for a Model 10 S&W, a pocketgun, or some sort of mid-sized gun? We (he or I) don't know yet. We'll shoot 'em all this weekend, including the .45, to see what he thinks. Then we'll shop.

I will probably steer him away from the Glocks for now. The lack of a safety on a semi-auto gun in the hands of an inexperienced shooter doesn't give me the warm fuzzies. Glock fans can debate all they want, but the human mechanics are pretty simple. Just push the go button. That's all. Not good. At least for him.

Truthfully, he's looking a little bit to the CZ 82's that are recently available. His thought is that it's enough gun, priced right, with enough features, in a caliber that's not readily available at Walmart if stolen. (He's an exec that works in a tougher warehouse/manufacturing neighborhood)

I'll let you know how it goes.

zxcvbob
October 19, 2007, 11:36 PM
How about a Hi Point 9mm? They are cheap and butt ugly, but from I've ready they are totally reliable. (I may buy one myself next time I see one at a gun show; last time I had already spent too much money)

I also vote for a used S&W model 10 or 15. (nobody said I could only vote once)

Bob

RNB65
October 20, 2007, 12:04 AM
Glock 17/19

DWARREN123
October 20, 2007, 12:20 AM
Any would do a good job. He needs to try them out and see how they fit.
My personal favorite in either 9mm or 40 S&W is a CZ 75 Compact.

mekender
October 20, 2007, 07:29 PM
FL goes by the 3 step rule... as long as it takes 3 steps to ready the weapon to fire, its not concealed (in a vehicle that is)... so opening the glove box, unsnapping the holster and disengaging the safety is 3 steps, at least the LEOs that i knew told it that way... though i would still reccomend that he get his CCW as im sure the laws have changed since i lived there... if hes a central fl guy, the central florida gun club is a great place to go shoot...

crebralfix
October 20, 2007, 07:43 PM
Car/truck guns should include a rifle given the craziness that occurs.

I suggest lower end rifles in case the vehicle is stolen, but that's up to him. Some sort of security box welded/attached to the frame might be a good idea.

SKS
Lever action rifle (30-30 or 35 whelen to get a true rifle round. Others will opt for 357 magnum, 45 Colt, or 44 Magnum).
Mosin-Nagant
AK-47

I whole heartedly endorse a sub-$500 AK-47 for this role. But, a levergun would do well if he trained with it. Even a bolt action Mosin would work with some training (at $80, it's certainly replaceable).

Alternatively, a slug shotgun would be good too, since you can get 100-125 yards out of it.

I'd then go with a solid handgun that matches his primary carry/house gun. Magazine interchangeability is a good thing, and allows one to arm a friend if needed.

Aimsurplus.com and summitgunbroker.com have a variety of pistols available at reasonable rates. A pair of CZ-82's at $210 each (with 12+1 rounds of 9x18mm) might be a good start. Summitgunbroker.com has good deals on used Glocks too.

***

Sooooo....

A newbie is too clueless to handle a Glock, but can handle a revolver just fine?

If you have such a low opinion of someone, why did you let him borrow some guns?

Gustav
October 20, 2007, 08:06 PM
Any from the list below would be a good choice.

Colt .45ACP Officers lightweight or Commander lightweight or a decent made copy or clone.

Sig 229 226 or in .45ACP 220 or Sig's polymer series.

Glock 17 22 19 23 or 30, just get rid of the factory plastic sights with a good set of tritiums such as Heinie or AO/XS with the small dot front sight.

CZ-P01 or CZ-75 IMI Baby Eagle or EAA clones if on a budget.

H&K USP Compact or P2000

Browning P-35 9mm or .40 S & W

FNs new Polymer pistol from what I have seen and handled is not bad at all.

S&W M&P or one of the older DA/SA third generation pistols many good deals on used ones out there allot of them have been traded in.

Springfield XD for those who like striker fired polymer pistols but not the ergonomics of the Glock.

Smith & Wesson .357 K frame model 13 or 65 3" or 4" barrel or a model 19 or 66 2 1/2" or 4" barrel.

A good holster and spare magazines or HKS speedloaders a can of pepper spray and a good surefire mini flashlight and practice until confident with whatever he chooses.
Rent beg or borrow and try out first before laying down the money as skill levels increase a quality pistol will not be outgrown.

lee n. field
October 20, 2007, 08:27 PM
-Springfield Armory XD series
-Glock 19 (G26 nice too but 'only' 10 rounds and pistol size is not an issue)
-Smith and Wesson M&P series
-Ruger P95 (I think that's the current big blocky Ruger SA/DA pistol? I have a P85 in 9mm and I've liked it ok)
-Taurus Judge, different category I know but they seem kind'a cool and surely a great anti-carjacking defense weapon?


Of those, I'd be inclined to pass on "the Judge".

doc2rn
October 20, 2007, 08:37 PM
I like KelTechnician's train of thought I keep the Model 10 in the Jeep, and a Colt 45 on the hip for CCW. One gun is good in an emergency, having two to protect loved ones priceless.

KelTecian
October 20, 2007, 10:48 PM
right on bro!

The Annoyed Man
October 20, 2007, 11:47 PM
I own pistols chambered in .380, .45 ACP, and .44 Mag. All good guns. Then I bought an HK USP Compact in .40 S&W last weekend. Although it was spendy, it was less, NIB, than one my .45s. The mags hold 12 rounds each, which for an old 1911 guy like me is definitely high capacity. The HK is now definitely my favorite pistol. It's accurate; the cartridge has plenty of power; it fits well in my hand. It's not too large, and not too small. It is a great pistol.

jame
October 21, 2007, 01:28 AM
"Sooooo....

A newbie is too clueless to handle a Glock, but can handle a revolver just fine?

If you have such a low opinion of someone, why did you let him borrow some guns?"

A Glock has a trigger pull of 5.5 lbs. Any DA auto or revo will be heavier, and require more intentional practice to allow accuracy. The visible exposure of a trigger also has an affect on newer shooters that gives them an understanding of the mechanics of the handgun. I would never suggest a Glock or any other "spring pin" gun as a newbie gun.

And, I don't have a low opinion of him, I have a low opinion of Glocks as a first handgun. The OP's question was, "What do *you" suggest?" I made my suggestion. You make yours.

And I'll let let my friends borrow whatever I like, without inpection or approval of others. If it makes you sleep better, he didn't keep any ammo. His request was for the guns only. No ammo.

Guitargod1985
October 21, 2007, 02:05 AM
FL goes by the 3 step rule... as long as it takes 3 steps to ready the weapon to fire, its not concealed (in a vehicle that is)... so opening the glove box, unsnapping the holster and disengaging the safety is 3 steps, at least the LEOs that i knew told it that way... though i would still reccomend that he get his CCW as im sure the laws have changed since i lived there... if hes a central fl guy, the central florida gun club is a great place to go shoot...

AFAIK, we use to have a 3-step law, as I have heard this before. But the law is different now. As was mentioned by a previous poster, you can have a firearm loaded and chambered as long as it is "securely encased" and not readily accessible for immediate discharge. For example, if you have it in a tupperware, glovebox (locked or unlocked), center console, snap-in holster, or gun case (locked or unlocked) then you are fine under the law.

Chapter 790, Florida Statutes states: (5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.

Of course, if you have the concealed weapon/firearm license you can carry it on your person while in conveyance. Here's what I do: I have one on my person for when I get out of the vehicle, and have another in a snap-in holster that is fastened underneath the dash/wheel/instrument panel.

BTW, +1 on the USP series. It is a bit on the pricy side, but you won't be disappointed in the performance or reliability.

aguyindallas
October 21, 2007, 02:36 AM
Me, personally....I would tell him no boss should take any shortcuts in personal protection.

http://www.100thww2.org/support/898/898m51.html

mekender
October 21, 2007, 07:13 AM
Quote:
FL goes by the 3 step rule... as long as it takes 3 steps to ready the weapon to fire, its not concealed (in a vehicle that is)... so opening the glove box, unsnapping the holster and disengaging the safety is 3 steps, at least the LEOs that i knew told it that way... though i would still reccomend that he get his CCW as im sure the laws have changed since i lived there... if hes a central fl guy, the central florida gun club is a great place to go shoot...
AFAIK, we use to have a 3-step law, as I have heard this before. But the law is different now. As was mentioned by a previous poster, you can have a firearm loaded and chambered as long as it is "securely encased" and not readily accessible for immediate discharge. For example, if you have it in a tupperware, glovebox (locked or unlocked), center console, snap-in holster, or gun case (locked or unlocked) then you are fine under the law.

Chapter 790, Florida Statutes states:
Quote:
(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.
Of course, if you have the concealed weapon/firearm license you can carry it on your person while in conveyance. Here's what I do: I have one on my person for when I get out of the vehicle, and have another in a snap-in holster that is fastened underneath the dash/wheel/instrument panel.

BTW, +1 on the USP series. It is a bit on the pricy side, but you won't be disappointed in the performance or reliability.

thanks for the update, its been a few years since my CCW expired in FL, in fact i moved out of orlando a year ago cus the crime was getting to bad... i carried CCW on I-drive for years as a delivery driver (walther ppk/s)

Elm Creek Smith
October 25, 2007, 12:17 AM
Don't mean to be a nitpicker, but the .35 Whelen is a necked-up .30-06, and I haven't ever seen one in a lever gun outside of a custom 1895.

If you're talking .45 ACP, I've been impressed by the Ruger P345. It's comfortable to hold and shoot and is accurate enough for me. I don't have one, but that doesn't mean much. I don't have the .357 SIG HD Tactical with night sights that I want, either.

ECS

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