[bender]

I'm in the market for one. was wondering what companies to avoid (if any), and what companies have superior workmanship and functioning. The cheaper the better, as long as it works and shoots good.

I would think that they would all perform similar since they are not much besides a barrel and a stock... :)

Dixie, cabelas, traditions, T/C, blah blah. There is a large price differential, i've seen some listed for $1000+ and some for only 200+.

[GunTech]

I like TC for the main reason that they use ordnance grade steel in their BP - IIRC 4140, versus stuff like L6 used in many BP guns. Obviously BP doesn't generate the same pressures as smokeless and can be made with weaker steel, but I like the added strength.

TC customer service is also good, IME. The again, you pay a lot more.

[ArmedBear]

If you don't necessarily want a double-set trigger, the Lyman Deerstalker and Trade Rifle are decent guns and $300.

When I built my T/C Hawken, it was less expensive than a Lyman Plains Rifle. Things have changed since then. I'm not entirely convinced that the T/C is as good as it once was, either. Neither the stock shape nor the wood on the T/C website pictures is as nice as what's on my living room wall at home.

Note that the T/C Hawken pattern, copied by all those others, is not a replica of anything from the 1800s. It was really the first "modern muzzleloader", developed for hunting in the 1970s. Real Hawkens were longer and usually heavier, the sights were not the modern adjustable ones on a T/C, and they tended to have iron furniture, not polished brass AFAIK.

Most modern "Hawken" rifles are clones of the T/C design from the 1970s:
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/images/silos/5024.jpg

The Cabela's Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken is a real replica, and the Lyman Plains Rifle is much closer as well:
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/PR0680.jpg

The Rocky Mountain Hawken is on sale right now for $900. I'm tempted, I'll admit. That's a real nice rifle. But I have a soft spot for a historical look and feel, and a curly maple stock. I even rust browned the barrel of my T/C, years ago.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/Item/21/62/96/i216296sn01.jpg

But to shoot around and hunt a little with, the Lyman Deerstalker or Trade Rifle will satisfy your wants and needs for 300 bucks. Not at all bad, IMO.
http://lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/images/Deerper.jpg
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/PR0652.jpg

[bender]

I'm buying an old T/C Hawken for my son for xmas. It was made in early 1970's I think, in beautiful shape.

That's why I'm in the market, I'm jealous of my son!! Like to have some shootin' contests with him.

I should have mentioned in the first post that another thing I would like is that the rifle be somewhat "historically accurate", at least cosmetically. ArmedBear's post reminded me of that, since he mentioned historical look and feel.

That Pedersoli looks nice... but for $900... I'd buy an AR ... :)

The Lyman Great Plains has a double set trigger and adj. sight. Did the originals from 1800s have those? What's the double trigger do?

What about Traditions, DGW, and other companies?

[Bad Flynch]

Well, I'm a satisfied customer of Lyman's. I own both flint and percussion GPRs in 54 caliber. I even have extra barrels for the percussion version: an extra fast-twist 54 caliber barrel and and extra Green Mountain 40 caliber barrel for ML competition. I absolutely love them and they work well.

I did buy one of the specially made Kit Carson Hawken duplicates that are sometimes available from www.trackofthewolf.com . It is a lovely 54 caliber piece with a full-fiddleback Maple stock and exquisite workmanship. However, I doubt that I would spend that much money again, considering the level of serviceability of the Lymans.

I was a dealer 'way back when T/C first introduced their "Hawken." It is a good and serviceable item, too.

[bender]

this may be dumb, but what's "in line" mean in terms of muzzleloaders?

edit: I googled it, looks like bolt guns

[powermaker]

i have a lyman's great plains 1-60 twist. its a great shooting gun. i got it back in 95 and it still looks and shoots like new. you can also get a 1-32 barrel if you want.

[Never No More]

The production stuff is sub standard to the kits you can get today.

Dont know why you want a Hawkens, they are heavy as hell.

If you want the finest flint/cap lock you can buy for the money.

Look up Jim Chamber, Muzzleloader Supply, or Track of the Wolf.

Anyone with a few hand tools can make a fine rifle. I made mine in 18 hours time.

You can too. I bought the finest grade custom parts I could, and it wasnt over $700.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/stallhorn/Lock.jpg

[arcticap]

this may be dumb, but what's "in line" mean in terms of muzzleloaders?

edit: I googled it, looks like bolt guns

Since you asked, "inline" is a type of muzzle loading design where the nipple is "inline" with the barrel. That means that the spark from the percussion cap doesn't need to travel around a bend, or 90 degree angle to reach the powder chamber in the breech portion of the barrel after it's loaded with powder. It promotes more certain and stronger ignition of the powder.

Modern inlines have many different types of actions, to set off the #11 percussion cap or #209 shotgun primer. Some are bolt action, break open, exposed hammer, plunger bolt, pivot block, electronic ignition, and maybe even a rolling block.
They usually have fast twist barrels for shooting conicals and saboted bullets, just like some barrels for traditional sidelock guns have.
Their fast twist can usually stabilize longer and heavier bullets for hunting at longer distances, versus shooting patched round balls or conicals out of slow or medium twist barrels.
They often can handle more powder, or even smokeless powder in the case of the Savage smokeless muzzle loader.
Traditional guns are much easier to load and shoot, especially for plinking, and they are made in much larger round ball calibers, up to .75 caliber is common, and even 10, 8 and 4 gauge smoothbores too.
Inlines have a removable breechplug for easier cleaning, while sidelock barrels don't. They must be cleaned from the muzzle end.

BTW, here's my Traditions .50 Hawken Woodsman with the discontinued 1 in 66" twist:


http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22391&d=1169497227
Hope this helps somewhat. :)

[redneck2]

I should have mentioned in the first post that another thing I would like is that the rifle be somewhat "historically accurate", at least cosmetically. ArmedBear's post reminded me of that, since he mentioned historical look and feel.

That Pedersoli looks nice... but for $900... I'd buy an AR ...
Calling anything made by T/C a Hawken is like taking a Kia, putting a plastic horse on the hood, and calling it a Ferrari.

I went to Friendship a number of years ago. Some guys had re-started the original Hawken shop in St Louis. They had 6 originals there.
Dont know why you want a Hawkens, they are heavy as hell.

They were originally made to be carried on horseback through the mountains. You were only going to see civilization maybe once every few years, and your life depended on your firearm. These defined the term "well made".

I used a CVA White Mountain carbine for deer hunting for several years and it worked quite well, but it sure wasn't a real Hawken.

Maybe you could get an original, except have a plastic stock, chrome barrel, and fiber optic sights....

[mykeal]

Amazing. All this good advice and nobody answered the question about double set triggers:
The Lyman Great Plains has a double set trigger and adj. sight. Did the originals from 1800s have those? What's the double trigger do?

There are two types of double trigger mechanisms. In both types one trigger, called the set trigger, is used to 'set', or activate, the firing trigger, which is the one that actually fires the weapon.

One type requires the set trigger to be pulled before the firing trigger can be used. In the other type the firing trigger will operate without using the set trigger first but the pull force is much greater. In this second type the set trigger simply reduces the firing trigger pull that's required to fire the weapon. In effect, the set trigger makes the firing trigger a 'hair' trigger, if such a term has any real meaning.

And no, I don't believe any original Hawken rifles had double triggers, although many contemporary rifles did.

[Phantom Captain]

mykeal,

I have a book here in front of me titled, "The Hawken Rifle: It's place in History" by Charles E. Hanson, Jr. A great book by the way for info on Hawken rifles.

In it almost every picture of original Hawkens even back to the very rare flintlock versions all have double triggers.

[ArmedBear]

Yes, many of them did have double-set triggers.

Look at this page: http://www.thehawkenshop.com/

They have two pages of pictures of originals. About 3/4 of them have double set triggers.

No offense, but that Traditions maple stock is club-like compared to the sharp lines and figured walnut of my old T/C. That's not a problem for a field gun. Hell, I have an 870 Express. But that's part of what you pay extra for when you buy the higher-end guns, since the OP asked. OTOH the new T/C's don't look all that hot either; hard to justify the price. That Pedersoli, though, would look really nice above the fireplace. It's multi-purpose.:)

Never No More has a point, however there's nothing wrong with getting your feet wet with a production gun if that's what you want to do.

The Lyman Plains Rifle really does offer the best combination of quality and authenticity for the money these days. I'd brown the thing, myself...:)

Anyway, when I can get an AR with a set trigger and a gorgeous curly maple stock set for $900, then I might compare the two. As it stands, my AR feels like a cheap power drill when compared to a nice muzzleloader. That's like comparing a cheap porno poster to a masterful painting. The first has its utility, but it ain't the same thing.

Which makes me think.... Curly maple AR... Hmmm... :)

[bender]

:) lol, I wasn't really comparing ARs to fine muzzleloaders... Just comparing what I'd do if I had $900 sitting around waiting to be spent.

Back in the 1980's I had a bp pistol kit that I built, and shot for a few years, so I have some experience, but not much.

So far, from the pics and suggestions already given, I'm leaning towards the Lyman Great Plains.

However, I'm interested in expanding this statement:

Dont know why you want a Hawkens, they are heavy as hell.

I was interested in the Hawken style due to them being shorter than the other styles, ie: Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Kentucky, whatever. Are these longer rifles lighter than the Hawken rifles?

[Bad Flynch]

Some of the Hawkens and some of the Hawken look-alikes can be very heavy. Originals were frequently 54, 56, or 58 caliber and had 1.125" barrels. The quoted longrifles can be heavy also, and with a 42+" barrel, can be unwieldy.

Try having an Ohio style rifle made, one of those called a transition rifle. They were often half-stocked, but were smaller calibers and smaller barrels, both in width and length. A Vincent rifle (also an Ohio maker) looks particularly elegant with a slim barrel of moderate length.

You can see some of these and buy the parts at www.trackofthewolf. com . You can buy the parts and have your favorite 'smith put them together, if you wish. The end result will be very nice and shoot very well.

[Iggy]

The Hawken rifle was built for those going to the Rocky mtns and the plains where they needed a "powerful" rifle for dealing with larger game animals and extended ranges..

The guns were most often carried by men on horse back and the barrels were short and heavy to enable the shooter to reload on horse back, however I seriously doubt anybody tried that more than once.

The barrels were 11/8" across the flats to withstand large charges of powder behind larger caliber balls.

Pennsylvania and Kentucky and "poor boy" rifles will be lighter and longer and efficient with smaller caliber balls on smaller game.

If you are going to hunt Mule Deer, Elk, and larger, then you probably should go for a "plains " type rifle like the Hawken.


If you are going to hunt white tail and similar game a smaller caliber long rifle would work well

For the money, the Lyman Plains Rifle is as close to a "poor man's custom" plains rifle as you can come.

As mentioned you can build some really nice rifles from kits like TOW and others.

[BigG]

If you want something off the shelf that is historically accurate, Davide Pedersoli makes a wide array of nice weapons. I have a musket that looks like a museum piece from DP.

[mykeal]

Yeah, you're right. I got that backwards. Don't know what I was thinking about but I should have checked before posting that message. Original Hawken rifles certainly did have double triggers, and I should have known that.

[redneck2]

This is my replica 1850 Hatfield. Correct for the period. 54 caliber, double set triggers. By far the best trigger of anything I own. Amazing that we have all this hype today about great triggers, and those guys were making them by hand with primitive saws and files 150 years ago.

As much as the modern guys want to mass merchandise the latest & greatest, there's just nothing that feels like a real muzzle loader. The way they hold beats anything we build today.

I used to have the book Hawken Rifle; Mountain Man's Choice by John Baird. This guy was nutso about real Hawken rifles. There were subtle characteristics that made them a true work of art.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e283/Indianaoutdoorsman/DSC00519.jpg

[Iggy]

****

[arcticap]

The cheaper the better, as long as it works and shoots good.


http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22391&d=1169497227

Comparing this rifle to a Remington 870 Express is highly complimentary. :)
This was the last one when I bought it at the Traditions factory store here in CT several years ago.
I've only fired about 60 shots through it, and would consider selling it for $160 + shipping if anyone's interested. That's about 1/2 the current going price of a new one with a 1 in 48 inch twist barrel and double set triggers.

Additional pictures: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=310683


PM or email me if interested.

[bender]

I'll be looking to get something sometime after xmas.
I was browsing The Muzzleloading Forum a little, and they seem to have high opinions of the Lyman GPR.

I went to Bass Pro yesterday to browse their muzzleloaders... but they only had ONE "old style" hawken-type. All other rifles were the modern styles... Omegas and whatnot...

Sportsman's warehouse has a much better selection, Cabela's also.

[MCgunner]

I have a Cabela's Hawkin Hunter Carbine. I like it a lot, light, very handy to carry, plenty powerful and ranges out to about 125 yards. It shoots 240 grain sabot Hornady .44 bullets really well and also the really heavy Minies like the 385 grain Hornady Minie. I bought a 360 grain Lee Minie mold for it and it likes those, too. But, lighter Minies, under 350 grains or round ball, forget it. It has a 1:24 twist, so it's great for the hunting bullets, but no round ball shooter. If you want to shoot light weight conicals or round ball, get a 1:48.

One thing I did with the carbine is convert to small magnum rifle primer ignition. I got too many "click...bangs" from number 11 percussion caps to suit me. Now, it goes "bang" with no click. The open sights on that gun are very good, too. If you're lookin' for a hunter with some traditional flair, it's a good'n. Another thing that sold me is I got mine in left hand AND it has a chrome bore which is a nice touch in a muzzle loader.

http://imageigloo.com/images/1116PICT0168.JPG

http://feat.putfile.com/profilepics/main/10/goose50-25289134342.jpg

[bender]

yeah, I was at Cabela's 2 weekends ago, and I remember looking at those Hawken carbines.

I was at Sportsman's Warehouse this morning, and I looked at the Lyman GPR. I thought it was nice looking, however... I was real turned off by all the instructions and warnings engraved all over the barrel :banghead:

On the other hand, the Uberti Dragoon replicas I looked at had nary a warning in sight... :)

[Gustav]

I really like my T/C Hawken it is a tack driver and is excellent in fit finish and quality of wood.;)

[SteveIndiana]

Ive been shooting either a TC Renegade or Hawken 54 cal for deer since 1983 and I absolutely LOVED the ol 540 grain Maxi Hunters that I CANNOT GET ANYMORE..drat. That bullet in front of 90 Gr of FFg has hammered deer in and out of brush for me every well. Another kinda "OFF?" or "NON" trad bullet that almost does TOO good a job is the 325 grain 50 cal sabot bullet from Barnes.

I CANNOT get em to fly well out of a 50 but the 54? OH MY! My only complaint with them is the MEAT LOSS.

While on the subject of Hawkens, and I hope I'm not offending anyone or breaking any rules here. I have a DOZY for sale.

Never in my life have I seen WOOD like this on a factory TC. A quick email will show you where I have it online in a classifieds if need be.

Condition is 90 plus percent. A bit of tarnishing on top the butt piece brass that should come out and a bit of freckling around the cap, but well....see pics. I have more photos if anyone wants to email me for more. Please do. 450 shipped if and ONLY if I can do this quickly. That is reduced from the 500 plus shipping. A bit higher than some but I'll stand by my opinion that another like it will be almost if not actually impossible to find.

Also, I would appreciate ANY info on where abouts of some TC 540 gr Maxi's.

http://imagesb.backpage.com/ind/04/047020977fff26881fdd345d24580494--1--HawkenStockAjpg--large.jpg


http://imagesb.backpage.com/ind/04/047020977fff26881fdd345d24580494--2--HawkenBjpg--large.jpg

[SteveIndiana]

All in all, to correctly answer this post. Im a true blue TC fan. Awesome set triggers, dependable, handle well for me and I cannot imagine anything being any better for this ol deer hunter. Mine have a deer count now close to 50 without a complaint from the shooter.

Great thread!

Steve

[Bad Flynch]

Well, I have (among others) a 50 caliber Ruger in-line and it is scoped. It is a tad better for old eyes that way.

That rifle really likes the 375 grain T/C Maxiball over 90 grains of FFFg Goex. I have shot cloverleaf groups at 100 yards with that load and I'm sure that it is adequate for deer-sized game at that range.

[Pancho]

I'll add my voice in support of the Lyman gpr. The only change I've made is to convert the gun over to musket caps. They are easier to handle and give a much hotter spark. The cost to convert is less than $10.
Also for your first ml cheap is not a dirty word. Hell, you might not like it. Muzzleloading is a deceptively complicated way to shoot and hunt.

[bender]

I shot an old T/C hawken last weekend several times. It was lots of fun. I found the routine of loading & shooting to be quite easy after a couple of shots practice. Was using Triple 7, 50gr, 60, and 70.

I'm taking a trip to Texas Jack's in Fred. TX tomorrow to do some shopping!!

[Pancho]

Well Bender, Some folks like to load a clip and fire away. My daughter is one of them. She's now 21 and she'll be buying her own ammo from now on. Some, like us, like to take a shot at a time. Think about the shot and take another one. Change a little something and shoot again. Sweet Jesus! I think I just described grass growing