gearbox
July 13, 2003, 08:06 PM
So it's bad to ride the hammer down on 1911s, right? What about DA/SA revolvers and DA/SA autoloaders? Is it bad on the sear or other components?
I've heard it's bad to decock a 1911, what about non SA only?
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DakotaSig
July 13, 2003, 08:28 PM
seems to me that if your thumb happened to slip off the hammer,
that the slide recoiling back would take your thumb off!:what:
that the slide recoiling back would take your thumb off!:what:
Archie
July 13, 2003, 08:39 PM
I've been carrying and shooting 1911s for about 35 years now. I've never heard it was damaging to the pistol to lower the hammer.
Some pistols, on half cock, might change the angle of the sear surface. Especially if dropped on the half cock. By the way, that is what the half cock is for, to catch the hammer if it slips while being lowered.
If lowered correctly, the sear will never touch anything. Can't see how that could hurt anything.
The fastest and surest way to carry a 1911 is cocked and locked. So there is no need to lower the hammer on such a pistol. Some folks just don't like that way of doing (cocked and locked).
Most DA/SA pistols have a "hammer drop" device of some form or other. But I still like easing the hammer down. It just does things to my stomach to let the hammer fall "clack!" on what I know is a loaded chamber.
Some pistols, on half cock, might change the angle of the sear surface. Especially if dropped on the half cock. By the way, that is what the half cock is for, to catch the hammer if it slips while being lowered.
If lowered correctly, the sear will never touch anything. Can't see how that could hurt anything.
The fastest and surest way to carry a 1911 is cocked and locked. So there is no need to lower the hammer on such a pistol. Some folks just don't like that way of doing (cocked and locked).
Most DA/SA pistols have a "hammer drop" device of some form or other. But I still like easing the hammer down. It just does things to my stomach to let the hammer fall "clack!" on what I know is a loaded chamber.
Standing Wolf
July 13, 2003, 09:14 PM
DakotaSig:
Well said!
Well said!
Nightcrawler
July 13, 2003, 09:31 PM
I do it all the time on my CZ-97, which is a DA/SA pistol that lacks a decocker. It's how I've carried the pistol, and it's how the manual tells you to lower the hammer.
Just takes a steady hand and some practice. It's no big deal.
Just takes a steady hand and some practice. It's no big deal.
gearbox
July 13, 2003, 09:59 PM
I mean to ask if it's bad for the gun. I've heard that it is bad for 1911s and am curious if it holds true to, specifically, revolvers.
Johnny Guest
July 13, 2003, 11:10 PM
- - -It's supposed to be "Bad" for the pistol to lower the hammer? May I ask your source for this. gearbox?
I personally can't think of any reason why the practice would be harmful, given an empty pistol. I've been lowering hammers for well over 40 years and know of no damage done thereby. ;)
Some people don't like to snap their pistols without a snapcap or dummy round in the chamber, so they lower the hammer under control. How would this be different from lowering the hammer over a loaded chamber? (Which, incidentally, needs to be done very carefully, and by the numbers. There IS a way to do it safely but it should be demonstrated rather than explained in text.)
As to the second part of your question, I don't see how it could be any more harmful to "ride down the hammer" on a revolver or DA auto than for an SA auto.
Best,
Johnny
I personally can't think of any reason why the practice would be harmful, given an empty pistol. I've been lowering hammers for well over 40 years and know of no damage done thereby. ;)
Some people don't like to snap their pistols without a snapcap or dummy round in the chamber, so they lower the hammer under control. How would this be different from lowering the hammer over a loaded chamber? (Which, incidentally, needs to be done very carefully, and by the numbers. There IS a way to do it safely but it should be demonstrated rather than explained in text.)
As to the second part of your question, I don't see how it could be any more harmful to "ride down the hammer" on a revolver or DA auto than for an SA auto.
Best,
Johnny
E357
July 13, 2003, 11:43 PM
With the 1911 and revolvers (those that I know) the only reason you can lower the hammer is because is has already slipped off the sear. So lowering it more slowly is a good thing as far wear and tear on the gun is concerned. I am not discussing loaded 1911s and safety, just addressing the question.
10-Ring
July 13, 2003, 11:57 PM
Decocking a 1911 onto a live round can be dangerous. Many non single action handguns today come w/ decockers that lower the hammers w/o risk of accidental disharge.
Al Thompson
July 14, 2003, 10:23 AM
Gearbox, the answer is "No". I think who ever told you that is confusing lowering the hammer on a loaded 1911 with an unloaded one. There are safty issues with lowering the hammer on a loaded 1911.
In terms of "bad for the HG" there are zero issues there. In slightly more than 28 years of shooting, I've never had anyone make that statement before.
In terms of "bad for the HG" there are zero issues there. In slightly more than 28 years of shooting, I've never had anyone make that statement before.
1911Tuner
July 14, 2003, 03:01 PM
Lowering the hammer on a 1911 or any other autopistol won't hurt
a thing, mechanically speaking. Safety is another matter. The
method to "safely" lower the hammer on a hot chamber doesn't exist.
The best way to lower the hammer on a 1911 is to clear the weapon, and
LOOK into the chamber to see that it's clear...twice...Then point the pistol
at something that can be replaced, and pull the trigger. Bonus points
will be awarded if that "something" will stop the bullet and prevent it from
getting to something that CAN'T be replaced.
Alternate method:
Reach over the top of the slide with your weak hand, and capture the
hammer between your thumb and index finger, push back on the hammer to be sure that you have it under control, pull the trigger, and lower the
hammer. This is also the "more safe" way to lower the hammer on a hot chamber, though I can't think of a single reason to do it, and would
probably excuse myself from the party if I saw anyone else do that.
MP's...Remember the 55-gallon sand-filled drum that was used to
clear your weapon after your tour? Drop magazine...rack slide twice...
Look into the chamber the second time...Point the pistol into the sand
and pull the trigger. How many hits did that bullet trap take in a year?
Yes! The gun is loaded! Don't bet that it ain't!
Decockers? Don't trust'em. Seen those fail a couple of times. There's
this guy named "Murphy"....
Careful! The life that you save may be mine.
Cheers!
Tuner
a thing, mechanically speaking. Safety is another matter. The
method to "safely" lower the hammer on a hot chamber doesn't exist.
The best way to lower the hammer on a 1911 is to clear the weapon, and
LOOK into the chamber to see that it's clear...twice...Then point the pistol
at something that can be replaced, and pull the trigger. Bonus points
will be awarded if that "something" will stop the bullet and prevent it from
getting to something that CAN'T be replaced.
Alternate method:
Reach over the top of the slide with your weak hand, and capture the
hammer between your thumb and index finger, push back on the hammer to be sure that you have it under control, pull the trigger, and lower the
hammer. This is also the "more safe" way to lower the hammer on a hot chamber, though I can't think of a single reason to do it, and would
probably excuse myself from the party if I saw anyone else do that.
MP's...Remember the 55-gallon sand-filled drum that was used to
clear your weapon after your tour? Drop magazine...rack slide twice...
Look into the chamber the second time...Point the pistol into the sand
and pull the trigger. How many hits did that bullet trap take in a year?
Yes! The gun is loaded! Don't bet that it ain't!
Decockers? Don't trust'em. Seen those fail a couple of times. There's
this guy named "Murphy"....
Careful! The life that you save may be mine.
Cheers!
Tuner
gearbox
July 14, 2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by 1911tuner
Lowering the hammer on a 1911 or any other autopistol won't hurt
a thing, mechanically speaking.You have addressed the issue. Thank you.
Lowering the hammer on a 1911 or any other autopistol won't hurt
a thing, mechanically speaking.You have addressed the issue. Thank you.
1911Tuner
July 14, 2003, 08:13 PM
Mighty welcome gearbox...Didn't mean to get so long-winded. I've
got a few bad memories of guys lowerin' the hammer on a live round...
Nerves are shot, I guess.:)
Watch yer six!
Tuner
got a few bad memories of guys lowerin' the hammer on a live round...
Nerves are shot, I guess.:)
Watch yer six!
Tuner
GeneS
July 14, 2003, 09:18 PM
While lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber requires extreme caution, I wouldn't say it can't be done safely. There's an awful lot of CZ-75 pistols in the world with the hammer down and one in the chamber.
gearbox
July 14, 2003, 09:34 PM
I'm not talking safety, here. It's a concern but NOT THE ISSUE.
I'm not talking semi-auto handguns, either, although I used the 1911 as the example of what I've been informed.
I'm asking about a revolver. I heard it could damage the sear or other components to continually decock a 1911 and am curious if this holds true to other firearms.
If there is any truth (or untruth) to this concerning the 1911 or other weapons, especially REVOLVERS, I would like to be made aware.
Please dispute or agree.
Thank you. :)
I'm not talking semi-auto handguns, either, although I used the 1911 as the example of what I've been informed.
I'm asking about a revolver. I heard it could damage the sear or other components to continually decock a 1911 and am curious if this holds true to other firearms.
If there is any truth (or untruth) to this concerning the 1911 or other weapons, especially REVOLVERS, I would like to be made aware.
Please dispute or agree.
Thank you. :)
Sean Smith
July 14, 2003, 10:03 PM
Mechanically it is a non-issue... it is just a slower version of what happens when you shoot the gun.
dsk
July 14, 2003, 11:13 PM
Mechanically you will not damage a 1911 by manually lowering the hammer. If you do, then it was because there was no overtravel in the trigger and the sear was bumping the hammer as it fell, something that will cause damage even if you fire the handgun normally.
Regarding decockers, the better designs move a block in the way of the firing pin, or in the case of guns like the Beretta rotate part of the pin away entirely. Failure-prone mechanical device or not, I'll trust them before I will my own slippery fingers!
Regarding decockers, the better designs move a block in the way of the firing pin, or in the case of guns like the Beretta rotate part of the pin away entirely. Failure-prone mechanical device or not, I'll trust them before I will my own slippery fingers!
bogie
July 15, 2003, 12:38 PM
Well, after we get CCW here, I'll probably be carrying a full-size 1911...
With a round in the chamber, and the hammer down. Sorry, but I don't trust safeties. I'd rather take a chance of shooting my sofa (procedure: barrel in pillow, on sofa, using both hands, lower hammer).
With a round in the chamber, and the hammer down. Sorry, but I don't trust safeties. I'd rather take a chance of shooting my sofa (procedure: barrel in pillow, on sofa, using both hands, lower hammer).
1911Tuner
July 15, 2003, 01:19 PM
Easy to have the best of both worlds bogie...Get a Series 80 Colt.
Grip safety blocks the trigger...Thumb safety blocks the sear...Series
80 system blocks the pin unless both the others are disengaged
by gripping the gun and pulling the trigger. It won't fire unless
the trigger is pulled, not even if the sear breaks clean off.
Some folks gripe about Series 80. I like it for the extra peace of
mind when carring in an open-topped rig in Condition One. All
others are carried in a rig with a strap that gets between hammer
and frame.
Cheers!
Tuner
Grip safety blocks the trigger...Thumb safety blocks the sear...Series
80 system blocks the pin unless both the others are disengaged
by gripping the gun and pulling the trigger. It won't fire unless
the trigger is pulled, not even if the sear breaks clean off.
Some folks gripe about Series 80. I like it for the extra peace of
mind when carring in an open-topped rig in Condition One. All
others are carried in a rig with a strap that gets between hammer
and frame.
Cheers!
Tuner
mrstang01
July 15, 2003, 03:35 PM
I fail to understand (and this is NOT a flame at anybody) why anyone would want to carry a SA weapon like the 1911, and then not carry it the way it was designed.
If you don't trust the safety, get a S&W, Glock, etc. The most dangerous gun I can think of is a SA carried Cond II. Chances are, when you go to cock it under stress, you are more likely to let the hammer slip.
Either carry it correctly, or at least carry Israeli style, but not II. You are an accident waiting to happen.
If you don't trust the safety, get a S&W, Glock, etc. The most dangerous gun I can think of is a SA carried Cond II. Chances are, when you go to cock it under stress, you are more likely to let the hammer slip.
Either carry it correctly, or at least carry Israeli style, but not II. You are an accident waiting to happen.
zahc
July 15, 2003, 05:29 PM
Word.
GeneS
July 15, 2003, 09:18 PM
Just a curiosity, but if JMB designed the 1911 to be carried only in condition 1 or condition 3, and never thumb cock or lower the hammer, why did he put such a big spur on the hammer?
1911Tuner
July 16, 2003, 01:03 AM
Howdy Gene,
The wide spur wasn't on Browning's original design. That came along
when the A-1 modifications were adopted...and it wasn't even on all
the A-1's. Colt used the wide spur, and one other...I don't recall
just now which one.
My guess is that since the Army discouraged carrying in One...even
designed a holster that prevented it with the flap closed...they
knew that the troops would want a higher state of readiness than
3, plus the ability to put the pistol in action with one hand. That would
call for Condition 2 and thumb-cocking...even though that was discouraged,
too.
You're likely to see a wide or narrow spurred hammer on any GI pistol
due to the arsenal rebuilds that they went through during their service,
but only two used them as originally built.
Keep your powder dry!
Tuner
The wide spur wasn't on Browning's original design. That came along
when the A-1 modifications were adopted...and it wasn't even on all
the A-1's. Colt used the wide spur, and one other...I don't recall
just now which one.
My guess is that since the Army discouraged carrying in One...even
designed a holster that prevented it with the flap closed...they
knew that the troops would want a higher state of readiness than
3, plus the ability to put the pistol in action with one hand. That would
call for Condition 2 and thumb-cocking...even though that was discouraged,
too.
You're likely to see a wide or narrow spurred hammer on any GI pistol
due to the arsenal rebuilds that they went through during their service,
but only two used them as originally built.
Keep your powder dry!
Tuner
TheOtherOne
July 16, 2003, 01:38 AM
Reach over the top of the slide with your weak hand, and capture the hammer between your thumb and index finger, push back on the hammer to be sure that you have it under control, pull the trigger, and lower the hammer. This is also the "more safe" way to lower the hammer on a hot chamber, though I can't think of a single reason to do it, and would probably excuse myself from the party if I saw anyone else do that.When I took my Hi-Power to the range for the first time I was trying that out. I wanted to know for sure if it was possible to lower the hammer without it going off and thus I always kept the gun pointed down range almost expecting it to fire. I didn't think I was being unsafe at all but the guy on the next bench over from me got up and left. Maybe he was just done shooting, but it seemed a little abrupt. I've always wondered if he just didn't like what I was doing.
E357
July 16, 2003, 01:41 AM
1911:
1) Lefties might find it easier to thumb cock than to flick off the normal safety.
2) If your in that line of work - going from half cock to full cock is a lot more quiet than using the safety.
Elliot
1) Lefties might find it easier to thumb cock than to flick off the normal safety.
2) If your in that line of work - going from half cock to full cock is a lot more quiet than using the safety.
Elliot
GeneS
July 16, 2003, 01:46 AM
Hello 1911Tuner,
I don't know about the original design (as in before it was adopted as the 1911). But all of the early models (like used in WWI) I have seen, had a larger, wider, spur than the 1911A1. They also have a grip safty with a very short tang, making it easier to thumb cock (and easier to get hammer-bite).
Best Regards,
Gene
I don't know about the original design (as in before it was adopted as the 1911). But all of the early models (like used in WWI) I have seen, had a larger, wider, spur than the 1911A1. They also have a grip safty with a very short tang, making it easier to thumb cock (and easier to get hammer-bite).
Best Regards,
Gene
1911Tuner
July 16, 2003, 01:59 AM
Howdy Other One,
Maybe so...Could be that he was of the mindset that a hammer should never be lowered on a hot chamber, and while I tend to agree, the
method is by far safer than trying to let the hammer roll under your
strong-side thumb. Kudos to you for practicing the move.
Thumb-cocking isn't nearly as dangerous as lowering it. If your finger
is off the trigger, and the hammer slips, the half-cock catches it. If
it falls before the half-cock passes the sear, there won't be enough
momentum to drive the firing pin home, assuming a good firing
pin rebound spring.
Be of good cheer and mindful of your six.
Tuner
Maybe so...Could be that he was of the mindset that a hammer should never be lowered on a hot chamber, and while I tend to agree, the
method is by far safer than trying to let the hammer roll under your
strong-side thumb. Kudos to you for practicing the move.
Thumb-cocking isn't nearly as dangerous as lowering it. If your finger
is off the trigger, and the hammer slips, the half-cock catches it. If
it falls before the half-cock passes the sear, there won't be enough
momentum to drive the firing pin home, assuming a good firing
pin rebound spring.
Be of good cheer and mindful of your six.
Tuner
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