Glock vs. 1911 1000 Round Match in OK 10/20/2007

[Double Naught Spy]

Today is the 4th Glock vs. 1911 Match held outside OK City. Rules are that any malfunction happens to your gun and you are out. No maintenance is allowed at any time. The idea is to go 1000 rounds. The match starts in an hour. I will post updates on platform performance during the day.

[Double Naught Spy]

16 Shooters but don't have the breakdown yet on platforms.

Glock 17 shot 3, broken mag catch/spring
Colt Commander .45 fail to saet mag after reload
Kimber fullsize, bad mag
Glock 17 fail to feed, gun not zero'd
Glock 21 fail to feed, shot 3
Glock 23 w/9mm barrel shot 9 stove pipe
Wilson CQB 3rd stage fail to lock back on empty

[Double Naught Spy]

Midday, down to one 1911 and 4 Glocks.

[blackhawk2000]

Whos crappy Glocks are you guys using there?

[Geno]

Double Naught Spy lied: :D

Kimber fullsize, bad mag

Liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guy probably limp-wristed it. :evil:

Do they allow adding oil every 150 or so rounds or just run through 1,000 rounds of abuse?

Doc2005

[fineredmist]

Blackhawk,
It must be something in the water out there, here in Ct the only time a Glock fails to fire is when it has a dud round in the chamber.

[strat81]

Is this with ball or JHP ammo? Or is it at the shooter's discretion?

[Double Naught Spy]

Okay, match is over. Came down to a G17 and a Colt Commander. Both went the full distnace and then some. The winner was the G17 because of a better time..

Doc, NO maintenance of any kind is allowed.

We started with 9 Gocks and 7 1911s.

[chieftain]

Very good.

Could we get a list of what failure/FTF caused each weapon to be dropped? Hopefully with round count or approximate round count etc. and ammunition used. Thank you.

I own both. In fact right now I am campaigning in the Steel Challenge with a Glock 34. IDPA I still shoot my 1911's. Bowling Pins, 1911. Most other misc training and match's I shoot 1911. I maintain both weapons equally. Cleaned and inspected after every time it is used, and any faulty parts are immediately replaced or in some rare cases repaired.

My 1911's (9 of them) don't FTF any more than any of my Glocks. At this time I only have 3. Have owned many about 15 others, but now only 3, I still own every 1911 I have ever owned. I also have MOST of the SIG'S I have ever owned. Not so with my revolvers. That was a mistake.

So the end results. You began with more Glocks than 1911's, and in the end one of each was reliable, and on score, which is more an example of the shooter the Glock won.

Ok I can live with that. Sort of blows the Glock koolaide all to hell, doesn't it. Note no 45cal Glock survived.

Real life. So few can accept it.

Go figure.

And a big thank you, for letting us know about this.

Fred

[Geno]

Thanks so much for sharing this. Great info to have. I did a 3,000 round test on my Colt Series 70 reissue and my Glock 17. Neither failed in any manner, but I did add oil every 150 rounds or so.

This will be an awesome thread for discussion. I'm excited to see it develop.

Doc2005

[Double Naught Spy]

I am doing updates from a blackberry in the field. I did not run the match. HOWEVER, the head guy will ge me the results in a day or two. We are all pretty beat.

[Black Majik]

Very cool thread. Didn't this competition start on Glocktalk? I remember seeing a similar match like this IIRC.

Nonetheless, glad to hear a 1911 pulled through. :D

Interesting results also!

[taliv]

"fail to seat mag after reload" sounds like operator error, not a malfunction



also, if this was the FOURTH match, then what were the results of the first three?

[RyanM]

Any or all of those jams could be operator error. I know my G23, when limp-wristed, will fail to feed rather than stovepipe. The round nosedives into the base of the feedramp (or even the front of the magazine, in extreme cases). The fact that there were so many failures, in both platforms, probably indicates that the shooters were messing up under stress.

[CleverNickname]

"fail to seat mag after reload" sounds like operator error, not a malfunction
So can "fail to lock back on empty". Occasionally I accidentally hold down the slide lock on my Glock with my thumb.

[blackhawk2000]

The only time my G23 has had problems not related to a weak mag spring, was when I took it apart and put sand in it. And then I only had about 3 in the next 300 rds I shot.

[455SD]

"fail to seat mag after reload" sounds like operator error, not a malfunction



also, if this was the FOURTH match, then what were the results of the first three?


It was operator error. I am the one that did it.

However, big boy rules apply If you pull trigger and your gun does not fire then you are out, operator error or not.

[taliv]

bummer, man. better luck in the 5th match!

i guess I can understand the purpose of the rules, but it means the endurance results only speak to operator+gun, not gun alone.

[Geno]

Oh, I can't resist it anymore:

Double Naught Spy said:

Okay, match is over. Came down to a G17 and a Colt Government. Both went the full distnace and then some.

'nough said. :evil:

Snicker, snicker, snicker. I know, I know. Someone with the word "Glock" in their nick will be a long soon enough to counter the joke. The difference, they'll be blindly serious. ;)

[JohnKSa]

Seems like it would be more fair if there were an equal number of Glocks vs 1911s. Otherwise there's an advantage to the gun type that has the most entrants since that type of gun can have more overall malfunctions and still have an entrant left in the running.

It also seems that it would be more fair if there were caliber restrictions as well. Like for every 9mm Glock entered there should be a 9mm 1911 entered.

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

Isn`t it funny how quickly excuses are given from people that own the models that were indicated to fail without being there? I just bought a Glock 22, .40 and the reason that I bought it is because it`s utilized by more police departments and government officials than any other. Tried and trued.

I am very happy with it. The first thing that I did was have the gunsmith at the shop that I bought it from replace the 6 pound trigger with a 3 pounder. The next thing that I did was take it to my uncles land and waiste about $70.00 in ammo. I loaded all 3 magazines and fired as fast as I could as he reloaded the expended magazines. I went through 300 rounds in just a few minutes without 1 single problem. I am, however, curious as to the accuracy. I used 180 grain Remington JHP`s I know that these could be considered as a bit much but they were on sale. Tried and trued, that`s why I bought it.

[455SD]

Oh, I can't resist it anymore:

Double Naught Spy said:

Quote:
Okay, match is over. Came down to a G17 and a Colt Commander. Both went the full distnace and then some.
'nough said.

Snicker, snicker, snicker. I know, I know. Someone with the word "Glock" in their nick will be a long soon enough to counter the joke. The difference, they'll be blindly serious.

Actually it was a COLT Government stainless that won. I had the only Commander.

[taliv]

johnksa, you really think one caliber is inherently more reliable than another?

[TimB92020]

Hi everyone, First post here...

I'm the guy who had the 1911 that made it to the end of the 1000 round shoot today.

Sorry for the confusion but to clarify, the pistol is a carbon steel Colt 1991A1 Government Model. It has been modified with the addition of a Commander hammer, beavertail grip safety, ambidextrous thumb safety, Ed Brown barrel and bushing, Heinie sights, and a hard chrome finish. I was running CMC Powermags and Federal American Eagle 230 grain ball.

I'd also like to say...to me it did not matter if there were more Glocks than 1911's or vice-versa, or more 9mm's than .45's, or shooter induced malfunctions, or whatever other concern some nay-sayer may come up with. I shot the match to have a lot of fun with a lot of great people. I had a GREAT time and plan to attend next year!

-Tim

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

You couldn`t have made a better comment. Sounds like you`re agreat guy. With a comment like that, to me you are a great guy.

[Double Naught Spy]

I have few corrections/clarifications to make because of the "fog of match" issues on my part.

First, the Glock that had the mag catch break apparently did not break. That was what was initially stated. Inspection of the gun revealed that the wrap-around grip cover (whatever you Glockers call it) had apparently slipped over or otherwise interfered with the mag release, thereby not letting mags seat and remain seated properly. So that was a failure due to an aftermarket addition.

Secondly, the Colt Commander (because I "knew" the shooter to always use commanders in the past matches) was actually a Colt Gov. Model, full sized. My bad.

Other insights, the match was geared for 1000 rounds or thereabouts with a course of fire that was below that amount and that would allow for some misses and still reach 1000. I understand that of the last 4 guns (3 Glocks and the 1911), all passed 1000 rounds, but two of the Glocks failed before completing the match COF. As they failed to complete the COF, they were DQ'd.

Based on what I have seen in this match and the four previous ones in which I have participated, I have noticed a few trends.

Generally speaking, Glocks tend to be in the first group to crap out and in the last group remaining. That was the case today. 3 Glocks in the match didn't go into double digit rounds, but 3 also went beyond 1000.

Glocks other than G17s tend to malfunction before G17s, especially if they are the baby Glocks or in .45 acp.

1911 problems tend to be geared mostly toward feed-related issues or slide stop related, but of course, most of the 1911s I see in these matches are .45 acp.

From previous matches, it has been my experience that far too many of both platforms fail much earlier than many of their owners believe will happen with their guns. Owners are always surprised if their guns actually have a part break.

Based on what I have seen, Glocks do tend to run better with dry rails than 1911s. Of course, 1911s tend to have much more rail contact surface area than do Glocks. As a result, lube is going to be more critical on the rails for 1911s than Glocks.

I have not seen where any particular type of ammo has proven superior to other types or brands, but have noticed that reloads have proven to be inferior and are a sure way to end up DQ'd.

While the matches do yield some interesting insights, there is no way for the matches to be very scientific given that the participants all come to the matches with guns of various ages/conditions/maintenance, brands/models of ammo, and shooter skills.

Is this with ball or JHP ammo? Or is it at the shooter's discretion?


Sorry, I missed this query. Shooters bring whatever ammo they want to bring.

In all of the matches, there are always a goodly proportion of shooters and guns DQ'd because of operator errors such as failing to properly seat a mag, starting a stage without a mag in the gun (causing the gun to cycle after the first shot, but not lock back on empty as the mag isn't present), bumping or riding the mag catch/release, or otherwise interfering with the slide's travel.

"fail to seat mag after reload" sounds like operator error, not a malfunction

It may be operator error (or may not), but the end result is that the gun fails to function properly. A mag may fail to seat because of damage to it, damage to the mag catch, weak mag catch spring, worn mag catch slot on a magazine, etc.

What I should have stated in posted number 1 was the explicit rules of the match. I apologize for not being clear, but it is tough to type very much very quickly with a little Blackberry while still participating in a match Here you go...

Rules...
1. If you pull the trigger and your gun does not go bang, you are out of the match.
2. There is no maintenance on any gun after the match starts. You can't lube the gun and if your sights fall off, either you quit or you shoot without sights, but you don't get to put them back on. You don't get to tighten screws or tap back in pins that have "walked" during the match.
3. A gun may not be hand cycled after chambering the first round of the day. You can sling shot or mag release to send the gun into battery after a reload, but you cannot cycle a gun already in battery in order to feed a new round into battery.

i guess I can understand the purpose of the rules, but it means the endurance results only speak to operator+gun, not gun alone.

This is partially true. Depending on your perspective, you might say that the matches are a test of gun, operator, ammo, and magazines.

However, if you can figure out a better way to get a bunch of shooters together from several states (with associated travel costs) and spend $150-300 each on ammo in a match competition environment, please send us your plan or host the match yourself and invite us.

I guess all of the guns could have been fired from Ransom rests, but then we would just be testing how well the guns work from Ransom rests, huh?

There are a lot of Glockers who claim their guns are better. There are 1911 fogies who say theirs are better. The match is a sort of "put up or shut up" kind of event. Nobody really cares what happens in a sterile lab. None of us ever shoot there.

It also seems that it would be more fair if there were caliber restrictions as well. Like for every 9mm Glock entered there should be a 9mm 1911 entered.


John, your idea sounds reasonable from a logical perspective. The problem is in getting folks to commit to attending this sort of match. Few folks have ever attempted to shoot 1000 rounds in a day. Many can't afford it and 1000 rounds may be all they ever shoot over a period of weeks or months, not hours. On top of that, of those who do commit, there are always several that fail to show.

also, if this was the FOURTH match, then what were the results of the first three?

Actually, this is the 5th I have participated in and the sixth I know about. Two others were held at TDSA in Texas. I participated in the second one there. We had 30 something shooters for that even and the results were posted on TDSA's website for about 3 years, but I believe are no longer there (not the last time I looked).

As for the previous 3 matches held at where we shot today, I don't know that the results still exist or not. Based on memory, two were won by Glocks, one by a 1911. The TDSA match I participated in was won by a 1911 (a STI double stack 9mm race gun, as I recall).

-----

The shooters of the match today were told the results were being posted here during the match. Maybe addition participants will post their observations or insights like 455SD.

[455SD]

Hi Tim.

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

You say Glocks and you say 1911`s. A Glock is a Glock right? A 1911 can be many different brands of gun, right? So really, there must actually be many more Glock "brand" guns than any other. How many different brands of 1911`s were in the match that you are aware of? Correct me if I`m wrong but I thought that the 1911 is a model type of many different brands. Is this correct?

I`m not hurrah`n either, or. But i think that there must have been many more Glock Manufactured guns in this match. Not to be making any negative point but to be pointing out the fact that Glock is a highly used and also must be a very consistent weapon of choice to the more avid shooters.

Like I`ve said about the 1911`s, I think that the term 1911 is a general reference to a model type and not a manufacturer. Please let me know if I`m wrong about this.:confused:

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

Based on memory, two were won by Glocks, one by a 1911
This statement for example. You say 1911 but what brand of 1911.
Basically the way you`re putting it is like Glock versus the entire line of 1911 models in any brand or manufacturer which would actually be unfair to the Glock. It`s like Glock versus the world or something. You get what I`m saying? I own a Glock ,of course, but I also on several other handguns and the Glocks that I own are not my favorite, all around, handguns but without a doubt,they`re the most reliable. I`ve owned a 9mm caliber Glock for years but I`ve just purchased the .40 today so I have a little knowledge of it`s capabilities. I`m really just curious about which brand 1911`s made it through to the end.

[TimB92020]

Woodstock72000@yahoo.com, Thanks for your kind comments :-)

To answer your question, A Glock is a pistol manufactured by Glock. There are size and caliber variations, but again, a Glock is a Glock. My personal opinion is that the original design (G-17) is the best performer.

A 1911 usually refers to a specific pistol design that is made by many different manufacturers. Colt, Kimber, Wilson, Springfield Armory, and several other firms make 1911 pistols.

455SD, Howdy back-atcha. :-)

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

A 1911 usually refers to a specific pistol design that is made by many different manufacturers. Colt, Kimber, Wilson, Springfield Armory, and several other firms make 1911 pistols.

So there`s my point. So it`s Glock in one corner and Colt, Kimber, Wilson, Springfield Armory, and several other firms make 1911 pistols in the other corner.

You know what`s funny, Glock wins! Now that`s funny right dar.
I mean come on, call a spade a spade.

The 17 is a great choice but don`t be so quick to designate it as the king of the hill. Do you mean the G17,17c,17cc,17l,17t,17p or the 17t 7.8 by 21? I personally like the G 22 but let`s see here, there are also the:
Basic:18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39
Compensated :19C, 20C, 21C, 22C, 23C, 24C, 31C, 32C
Compensated Competition: 19CC, 20CC, 21CC, 22CC, 23CC, 31CC, 32CC
Practice (Red) : 19P, 22P, 23P, 26P
Training (Blue) : 9mm FX,
My point is if it`s your opinion that the basic 17 is the best, great, you`re totally entitled to that opinion but there are many more very,very competent choices to choose from.
No offense intended but, get the point?
Awsome weaponery!

[JohnKSa]

johnksa, you really think one caliber is inherently more reliable than another?I think that the (non-baby) 9mm Glocks are the flagships of the fleet, so to speak. They tend to be more reliable and also more durable based on the (admittedly anecdotal) information I've seen. I think that DNS' comments bear this out.Inspection of the gun revealed that the wrap-around grip coverInteresting. That's the second failure due to a slip-on grip cover that I've heard of. The other was with an H&K USP that my wife was shooting. The grip cover slipped up under the mag catch and prevented it from being activated to drop the magazine. Funny how even the most seemingly innocuous additions to a firearm can have relatively severe impact in certain circumstances.The problem is in getting folks to commit to attending this sort of match. Few folks have ever attempted to shoot 1000 rounds in a day.I do appreciate the complexity of trying to "even the field".

Here's an idea that occurred to me while typing this response. Each of the entrants brought 1000 rounds. What if each entrant (barring a hard failure such as parts breakages where no replacement parts are available) continued shooting until the ammo was exhausted? Tallying the total malfunctions and dividing by the number of entrants of the applicable type would provide a comparison that wouldn't be weighted in favor of the type of gun with the most entrants.

[chieftain]

Thanks for all the information. Very good effort.

I might try to start one at my club.

Some folks desperately need to find some justification for what they carry. Others need to jiggle results until it justifies what ever religion it is they believe in. Just don't make them believe in what really happened.

Go figure.

WELL DONE, GENTLEMEN.

Fred

[combatantr2]

The PHIL. NATL POLICE did a 5000round torture test on the NORINCO 1911/45acp last year, if im not mistaken. The results were widely publicized at local Phil. gun stores. The NORC passed the test. Competitors were, STI, Armcor, and some I could not remember.

[Geno]

Tim:

Welcome to THR Tim! We need more of these contests/get-togethers around the country. It just sounds fun! I would think that the application of hard chrome to the 1911 would negate much of the friction in spite of the oil being running off or burned off.

All:

Does anyone recall the exact criteria used when the 1911 was adopted by the military? I recall it was 6,000 rounds, break to cool the pistol every 1,000 rounds. No cleaning allowed. But, every how often did the military allow the application/reapplication of oil?

[AndyC]

"A torture test was conducted, on March 3rd, 1911. The test consisted of having each gun fire 6000 rounds. One hundred shots would be fired and the pistol would be allowed to cool for 5 minutes. After every 1000 rounds, the pistol would be cleaned and oiled. After firing those 6000 rounds, the pistol would be tested with deformed cartridges, some seated too deeply, some not seated enough, etc. The gun would then be rusted in acid or submerged in sand and mud and some more tests would then be conducted."

[fineredmist]

Double Naught Spy,
I have a question, what was the required rate of fire, was it 1000 rounds continous or so many rounds in so many minutes?

[taliv]

However, if you can figure out a better way to get a bunch of shooters together from several states (with associated travel costs) and spend $150-300 each on ammo in a match competition environment, please send us your plan or host the match yourself and invite us.

i wrote a lengthy paragraph in my original post essentially saying that i couldn't think of a better way to do it, but then, i decided that was fairly obvious so i deleted the paragraph before posting.

i think the match is a great thing, i just felt like pointing out what the results didn't mean

[jmorris]

I always wanted to go to one of the Glock v 1911 matches when TDSA held them. Next time let us know before hammer down. I’ll bring some fellows with 1911’s that will even out the field (and some glockers too).

[Double Naught Spy]

Here's an idea that occurred to me while typing this response. Each of the entrants brought 1000 rounds. What if each entrant (barring a hard failure such as parts breakages where no replacement parts are available) continued shooting until the ammo was exhausted? Tallying the total malfunctions and dividing by the number of entrants of the applicable type would provide a comparison that wouldn't be weighted in favor of the type of gun with the most entrants.

John, this was done at the TDSA match I attended, but it stopped after 7-10 malfunctions. There were a variety of guns in that match that were having that many malfunctions in a single stage because whatever problem had caused things to deteriorate significantly. In that match, my gun had 2.

It was also a huge pain to keep that many shootings moving. I believe we ran 4 squads through 5 ranges with the range not being used as the range being changed out (target configuration). So there was an infrastructure to keep the match going.

The match this weekend was shot on 3 different ranges set up in 4 configurations (one range had 2 sets of targets) and several stages were shot with each configuration, usually starting at 10 yards distance and working backwards increments for each stage.

John, you are right, of course, but there is just a LOT of work that goes on to run the match to keep things together and moving during the day. That doesn't even begin to address all the preplanning and setup the host did.

You know what`s funny, Glock wins! Now that`s funny right dar.
I mean come on, call a spade a spade.

The way I see it, the Glocks were the first losers. Call a spade a spade. 1/3 of the Glocks failed to fire 10 rounds.

The real bottom line here is that it is a fun match that was born out of the traditional Glock/1911 rivalry. The TDSA matches didn't resolve anything and neither do these matches, but they are a lot of fun.

From the perspective of real guns being fired by real people with real witnesses, my view is that both platforms reveal some abysmal issues. We all like to read the posts by folks that have guns that NEVER malfunction and we have had some of those guns at the Glock vs. 1911 matchs and the DID NOT WIN because the DQ'd. I personally find it funny when guns claimed to be perfect fail to stand up to public scrutiny. What gets really funny is when the excuses start.

[Odd Job]

Thanks for the info, DNS. I like this sort of thing.

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

Just to clean the table, I have a Ruger P94, a Glock 17 and a Glock 22. I`ve had a S@W 1911 model and I am about to get a CZ 97B . I didn`t make any bias point. I did, however, make a valid point in stating the fact of Glock versus every gun manufacturer that make some variation of a 1911. I love the Smith and Wesson 1911`s, most all Glocks, P series Rugers, Colts and Springfield armory`s. They`re all fabulous weapons.

Point is, I like several different makes and models of handguns. The other point is I think that these "contests" should put a bead on one make of 1911 regardless of caliber. Oh yeah, and how about putting a price range of the weapon as well? You know, like a $300.00 to $600.00 range group, a $600.00 to $1000.00 group etc. etc. And, let`s see what would happen then.

This way it would help all consumers use this contest to determine on their next purchase and it would make for a more exciting show, even out the playing field so to speak.

Whatcha think.;)

[GEM]

I might have missed it. What kind of stages?

How long did it take for a shooter - all day? Did you stop for lunch? I could see someone eating some greasey BBQ and secretly caressing their slide with it?

Kind of like a spit ball. :D

Sounds great.

[Double Naught Spy]

I bet that will be a fine match, when you have it. Speaking of which, when will you be having it?

[Charles S]

Double Naught Spy,

Thanks for taking the time to post the information on the match.

Maybe I missed it, but what did you shoot and how did you do?

[455SD]

Just to clean the table, I have a Ruger P94, a Glock 17 and a Glock 22. I`ve had a S@W 1911 model and I am about to get a CZ 97B . I didn`t make any bias point. I did, however, make a valid point in stating the fact of Glock versus every gun manufacturer that make some variation of a 1911. I love the Smith and Wesson 1911`s, most all Glocks, P series Rugers, Colts and Springfield armory`s. They`re all fabulous weapons.

Point is, I like several different makes and models of handguns. The other point is I think that these "contests" should put a bead on one make of 1911 regardless of caliber. Oh yeah, and how about putting a price range of the weapon as well? You know, like a $300.00 to $600.00 range group, a $600.00 to $1000.00 group etc. etc. And, let`s see what would happen then.

This way it would help all consumers use this contest to determine on their next purchase and it would make for a more exciting show, even out the playing field so to speak.



If it makes you feel any better,. there were several Glocks there that were far from box stock Glock manufactured pistols. Three were very tricked out for competition and had very few stock Glock parts left in them. Two of them DQ'd before getting through a full mag.

The field was very rounded out and that is what I like about this type of match. I love watching the guys with the high dollar guns go down quickly.

[taliv]

my very high dollar gun would never make it through that. it generally shoots flawlessly for about 200 rnds of LSWC or 500 rnds of jacketed, then requires a cleaning. That's plenty to get me through any other match, and 10x as much as i'll ever need in a non-zombie-related SD scenario

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

OK, I`ll just tell it sraight.
Glocks are the most common choice of the day because of what reason? DEPENDABILITY:Most used model by law enforcement agencies
PRICE: Most models cost under $600.00
ACCURACY: With or without the thousands of accessories,straight out of the box 2 1/2 inch groups at 18 yards.
AFTERMARKET ACCESSABILITY: Thousands
REPAIR OR "TRICK OUT LOCATIONS" tens of thousands.
HIGH CAPACITY: Most models hold are at least 13+1
DURABILITY: Drop it in the mud,water sand,slam it against the wall, hit it with a hammer and it will fire.

So go ahead and speak illy of them if you`d like. I didn`t want to resort to this type of conversation but I`ve heard enough about how the Glocks suck. I guess the fact of the Glock being at the top of the charts in sells means that all of those people that are buying them are clueless, right. I`ll say it again, I like most of the handguns that are produced today with the exception of a few and they are all well put together pieces. For anyone to speak to the point of a Glock in a bad way shows ignorance of todays weaponery. End of discussion, on my end anyway so, Fire away.:)

[Charles S]

woodstock72000@yahoo.com

You have more faith in the system than I do!

Glock gets LEO contracts for one reason IMHO.....Price.

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

one reason
wrong, i listed 7 of many.

[Charles S]

LOL.......Again you have more faith in the system than I do....But then again I have been around the block once or twice and know how the system works.

The Glock is good platform, but it is no better than some others...It boils down to price..

kind of like when the Texas DPS got 357 Sigs in Sig 229s....no one mentioned how much Sig subsidized the deal!

Prove me wrong...I will be happy to concede!

Glocks in this matched failed very early....if they are the most reliable platform...should they all not have completed the course????

[Feanaro]

Basically the way you`re putting it is like Glock versus the entire line of 1911 models in any brand or manufacturer which would actually be unfair to the Glock. It`s like Glock versus the world or something.

If anything, the advantage is in Glock's court. They are not made by 20 companies with 20 different QC departments, 20 different assembly lines, and parts made by three times as many different suppliers.

[455SD]

DURABILITY: Drop it in the mud,water sand,slam it against the wall, hit it with a hammer and it will fire.

I think you are missing the point of this match.

Your statement is simply not true. Any pistol can fail on any given day and that is the beauty of this match. No one is saying Glocks suck, but facts are facts. The Glock dropped out just as fast as any 1911.

If they are as uber-dependable as you claim they ALL should have finished the 1000 rds with 0 problems, correct?

[Double Naught Spy]

Holy crap! This was a match comprised of 16 guns of which ONLY 2 finished the course of fire, one Glock and one 1911. Die hard proponents of each platform should be rather embarrassed by the lackluster performance of both.

Woodstock, you can claim all you want about sales and testing of Glocks, but I have been in 5 of these matches and seen lots of Glocks fail and several actually break parts. I can say the same for 1911s. I have seen springs break, pins break, pins walk, sights walk, and even seen 3 Glocks take a dump right there while firing, the base of the mag releasing with the spring shooting out followed by all the cartridges and follower like so many turds. That is truly a gun crapping out of the match.

Neither platform performs as well as its reputation is big. It is that simple.
Neither platform lives up to its purported reputation when put to the test by the real people who shoot these guns.

[drmsparks]

Don't forget the corollary to your post Double naught- Based on the types of errors....

The owners failed the pistols as often as the pistols failed the owners.

What you're shooting isn't as important as the time you spend practicing to shoot it.

[drmsparks]

delete

[trbon8r]

I'd love to try this. It would be great to get something like this together here in Maryland. 1000 rounds sounds like a good warm up for one of my Baers. ;)

[JohnKSa]

If you guys do this again in the North TX area (or even a relatively short drive from here) let me know. I'd like to enter a 10mm Glock. I'd need some advance notice as I don't have enough ammo on hand at the moment.

[455SD]

1000 rounds sounds like a good warm up for one of my Baers

You would think so until you don't properly seat a magazine and then you are out.[:D]

[metallic]

It would be nice to open the match up to SIGs and HKs too. Then we can really see which reputation is deserved.

[HighVelocity]

There are a lot of Glockers who claim their guns are better. There are 1911 fogies who say theirs are better

This statement just about made me bust a rib! Glock shooters are "Glockers" and 1911 shooters are "fogies"? :uhoh: :D

[Double Naught Spy]

Sorry, at the first 1000 round match I attended, Glockers referred to some of the 1911 guys as "old fogies" because they shot an antiquated platform. 1911 Fogies called Glock guys "Glockers" that I took to be an insulting term. So I thought I would be an equal opportunity offender.

Okay, I have preliminary data. One data sheet is missing and there is some question as to exactly when some guns went out apparently due to inconsistent notation. Remember, the match was shot as a sort of all or none match. Either you finished the COF or you did not. Suffice the second post I made at the start to give some indication of the guns that were out of the match early on. Note that by midday, which was lunch, only 5 guns remained (post #3).

Model/Final disposition
Colt 1991 A1 Finished
G17 Finished

G17L Bad primer of a reload (very late in the match)
G21 Fail to lock back on empty
G? "Sights off" (very late in the match)
G21? Stove pipe
Kimber Tac II Double Feed (reported originally as bad mag)
10-8 1911 Fail to feed
G17 Grip attachment interfered with mag catch
G17 Mag failure to lock (fail to seat?)
G35 Fail to feed
G21 Slide lock premature, fail to feed
Colt Cmdr. Fail to seat mag
Wilson CQB Fail to lock back on empty (reported as fail to feed on score sheet, but this one was mine)
G17 Fail to lock back on empty

[Geno]

Can you add the round-count at which each of the failed pistols dropped?

That would be interesting!

Doc2005

[TimB92020]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome...

I'd like to make a few more comments.

Someone asked about the hard chrome finish on my gun making it smoother. Maybe, I don't know. I have mostly stainless guns and a couple of blued ones. Quite frankly they all feel smooth to me, but the smoothest I ever remember feeling was not mine, it was a carbon steel gun built from the ground up using a frame and slide with oversized rails that were fit by hand.

I'm left-handed, so all my 1911's have ambidextrous safeties. I find them more comfortable to shoot with a beavertail, which means they get Commander hammers. I like Heinie sights. I hate rust, so guns with stainless or hard chrome finish tend to get used a lot and guns with a blued finish tend to spend more time in the safe.

Knocking off the sharp edges and beveling the magazine well make the gun more comfortable and easier for me to use. I also bump up the recoil spring to a Wolff 18.5 conventional for a more authoritative slide stroke. The particular gun I used in the shoot happens to have an Ed Brown barrel because I wanted the corrosion resistance of stainless steel, not because the stock barrel shot poorly.

I really don't think these are radical modifications. I have owned Colt XS series guns that came from the factory with a beavertail and Ambi safety, and I shot them just fine in stock form.


Have I mentioned I carry a Glock 22 every day as a duty gun? I just happen to like 1911's, but I have no problem with Glocks.

Some of the shooters in this match failed their guns. One experienced shooter showed up to the match with a gun he had not personally zeroed after having someone else install sights on it. Another shooter did not fully insert a magazine and though the gun, magazine, and ammunition were all capable of performing, they never had the chance due to his error.

I have shot this match 4 times and failed twice. I failed once due to a stupid error I made. I failed to complete the match another time because of a defective factory round which I could have spotted if I had visually inspected each round of my ammunition prior to the match.

Bottom line.... if you want to have the highest probability of shooting 1000 rounds without a failure, shoot your gun a lot first to make sure there are no problems with it. Any reliability or accuracy problems should be addressed to your satisfaction, or the gun is a paperweight and not worthy of ownership. Make sure you are familiar with its point of impact vs. point of aim at the distances you plan to shoot, using the ammunition you plan to shoot.

Make sure all of the magazines you plan to use function properly in your gun (including locking the slide back on empty, and replace springs if needed) with the ammunition you plan to use. Clean and lubricate your gun immediately prior to the match. Clean your magazines immediately prior to the match, but don't leave any lubricant in them because it is likely to attract grit and cause them to malfunction.

Use factory ammunition, not reloads. Visually inspect each round of ammunition you plan to use. (I lost last year due to a primer blowout that tied up my gun. The primer hole in the round was visibly deformed and would have been detected upon visual inspection.) Using the barrel of your gun as a guage, make sure each round of ammunition you plan to use fits in the chamber.

Some of the above is a bit tedious. I admit that I don't check all my factory ammo. I just open up the boxes and stuff it into my magazines as fast as I can during the match. I also realize that if I wanted to absolutely give myself the best chance of success, I would go through each of the steps above. I admit that if I skimp on any of the above, it is ME who is lessening my chances of success, not whether I shoot a Glock or a 1911.

Seriously folks, alll of the stuff above is common sense. I don't mean to be condescending in pointing it out, but we seem to loose track of some pretty basic principles and start pointing fingers and/or jumping to unfounded conclusions when we see failures that could have been prevented.

And last but not least.... it's just for fun anyway, so lighten up and enjoy, or move on and don't worry about it :-)

-Tim

I'll step down from my soap box now :-)

[taliv]

i'd take you up on the factory vs reload challenge. maybe at the next THR get together we can do one of these.

[TimB92020]

Hi Taliv...

Sounds fun, but please understand it was not my intent to disparage any particular person's reloads... just to point out that (in my opinion) using reloaded ammunition is one of those things a shooter can do which would reduce the statistical probability of completing the course of fire without a malfunction.

Also, if a Glock shooter used reloaded ammunition and experienced a failure to fire, it does not necessarily mean Glocks suck and 1911's rule or vice-versa, but it may mean reloaded ammunition tends to generally be less reliable than factory ammunition...OR NOT.... Maybe the ammo gremlins just picked on that particular shooter for the heck of it that day :-)

-Tim

[Dravur]

the pistol is a carbon steel Colt 1991A1 Government Model. It has been modified with the addition of a Commander hammer, beavertail grip safety, ambidextrous thumb safety, Ed Brown barrel and bushing, Heinie sights, and a hard chrome finish. I was running CMC Powermags and Federal American Eagle 230 grain ball.

a FrankenColt......

The Glock.....was a Glock...

[TX35]

I would like to see a stock G-17 (Around $550.00), against a Stock 1911....

[455SD]

Quote:
the pistol is a carbon steel Colt 1991A1 Government Model. It has been modified with the addition of a Commander hammer, beavertail grip safety, ambidextrous thumb safety, Ed Brown barrel and bushing, Heinie sights, and a hard chrome finish. I was running CMC Powermags and Federal American Eagle 230 grain ball.
a FrankenColt......

The Glock.....was a Glock...


The Glock was not.......a Glock. It had been worked over too.

[sgb]

Great read

[strat81]

I would like to see a stock G-17 (Around $550.00), against a Stock 1911....
+1. A G17, G19, G22, and G23 versus a SA GI, SA Mil-Spec, RIA 1911, and something a bit high-dollar... STI, Kimber, or Les Baer.

BONE STOCK. I doubt a Honda Civic would be as reliable if I gutted the engine and installed a turbo on it in my garage.

[TimB92020]

OK... You got me. My gun is a FankenColt. Is my Baer Custom Carry a Franken 1911 too? Keep in mind it came from the factory with everything I added to my Colt, except the corrosion-resistant finish. If I send it back to Baer for a hard chrome finish, will that make it a Franken 1911 then? What about a Colt XS with a factory ambi, beavertail, Commander hammer, and 3-dot sights...Real 1911 or Franken? Is a Springfield 1911-A1 a Franken gun because of the ILS mainspring housing? Maybe they are all Franken guns because they deviate from the original 1911 design... just like all the 1911A1's used to save the world in WWII were Franken guns because of the A1 modifications to the original design. Maybe the ones made by Colt were OK, but those made by Remington Rand were Fanken because they were not Colts?

Right now i'm carrying a Glock 19. I don't like serrated triggers, so I put in a smooth trigger meant for a full-sized Glock. Oh yeah.... my Department requires a NY1 trigger spring and 5 pound disconnector or an 8 pound disconnector with the standard trigger spring. (I have chosen the former.) Is my gun a FrankenGlock, or is it OK now, but becomes Franken if I add night sights?

I quit. You guys win :-)

-Tim

[taliv]

Sounds fun, but please understand it was not my intent to disparage any particular person's reloads... just to point out that (in my opinion) using reloaded ammunition is one of those things a shooter can do which would reduce the statistical probability of completing the course of fire without a malfunction.

yep, I understand. particularly in the past 2 years, i've seen a LOT of issues with factory ammo, even supposedly quality stuff.

[MarshallDodge]

What a way to rile up the troops. :evil:

Both are great guns, I like the 1911 better because of the grip and the single stage trigger.

Good job showing the world that all guns are mechanical and prone to failure.

[AndyC]

Please keep us posted when the next trials are in progress - pretty darned cool ;)

[Littlemac]

So when are you Naysayers going to put on one of these matches. If you want to put in Sigs or Baers or whatever there is nothing stopping you, but you. You don't like the rules? Ok make up your own

The next one of this series will be in October of 2008. If you want an invitation you have to get one of the current attendees to vouch for you. That is the way it has worked for the last few years and it has proved exceptional. There are exceptions after you have provided your bonafides that can be verified.

This match isn't for everyone and I understand some of you are skeptical, that is OK you don't have to play. You don't even have to read the thread, but from the looks of it, lots of folks are interested.

Most of the folks, who attend, have such a good time, they almost always come back to compete another year and to see lots of friends.

This thread has taken a turn I did not expect. When is a glock a glock and when is a 1911 a 1911? Strange. I guess in keeping with Big Boy rules, if there has been any modification then it is a frankengun?

I recognize DNS and TimB but I don't recognize 455 SD. Out of T Town?

To the attendees, Whew what a time? After picking up brass for 4 hours, I got tired and left some. Sorry we did not get the pneumatics up and running, but hopefully soon I spoke with the manufacter today and have a schematic for the wiring. Keep your eye on the email, 2008 date to be sent shortly. Thanks for the ideas on the next match. Turning over spinners, small targets up close and larger ones in back. Maybe not so much work in resetting? That would be good. Huh

LM:D

[taliv]

The next one of this series will be in October of 2008.

i could maybe make that. where?

I don't have a problem with the rules, other than maybe make it "glocks vs 1911s vs MAC10s" that way i could get through my 1000 rnds and head back to TN with a little daylight left :)

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

Doublenaughtspy, This has been a great thread. I`ve read pretty much every comment and it`s one of the better threads that I`ve attended. Nobody got too huffy-puffy and it has been nice and smooth. I guess there will always be the "fogies" as you put it and the "glockers" again as you put it but as for me, I guess I`m a "GlogieCZ"
Good luck with your next matches and I`ll try to keep up with ya as time moves on.

Great job.

[Sir Aardvark]

Very good thread!

I had planned on doing something like this with my CCW guns (Glock 30 and SIG 229), and after reading this it gives added impetus.

Here is my question, though... what do you use for lube?

I use Mobil 1 on my slides, but I am not sure how it would hold up for 1000 rounds.

I would think a grease would work good, but might end up getting really dirty.

Also, it would be neat to see how a finish like Robar's NP3 or Rogaurd would affect the outcome.

[Dravur]

Is my Baer Custom Carry a Franken 1911 too? Keep in mind it came from the factory with everything I added to my Colt, except the corrosion-resistant finish

Nope, but it doesn't make it a Colt, either...

Not bashing the FrankenColt. I myself collect Colts and I have a soft spot in my heart for the brand. Just pointing out an interesting tidbit of info. You did do alot to the Colt to make it work. A number of parts were swapped. I did not see what was done to the Glock, if anything. If I missed it in here, then oops.

Im not saying the Glock is better than the 1911 (look, a can of worms and an opener... how strange...) I just found it funny that the 1911, to function well, had to have $1k worth of work done to it to make that particular one that reliable..... While the Glock, to my knowledge...did not.

Again, not saying that the 1911 is unreliable. Mine can shoot 10k rounds without a hiccup... underwater... after being in a Rhino Butt..... but, so can my Glocks.

Both are good guns and will do what you ask of them.

Now, the real question is... What is better.... 9MM or .45 ACP?... Discussion?

[455SD]

Dravur

A good portion of the work done on the 1911s is not necessarily done to make them work, but to better suit them to the shooter. My Commander worked perfectly with plastic parts and factory sights, but a beavertail, steel mainspring housing, and Novaks make it better for me.

Not all modifications are done just to make the gun run.

[1911RjB]

nice post thanks for all the info.

[45auto]

Match was well done and "it is what it is"...real life stuff IMHO.

I'm not sure why it matters if the 1911 was "gunsmithed" or not.

If anything, shooting a 9mm with less recoil and reloads in a full sized gun(17) should be a big advantage in a match like this. Particulary comparing to a 45 if hardball is used...much heavier recoil and twice the reloads.

[Littlemac]

We have an excellent shooter down in God country, who I will attribute this to. Hany's postion is that 9mm is best shot from a Glock and 45 acp is best shot from a 1911. From my experience that is the case.

I am by no means the authority on either one, but I have come to the bright side since 4 glock 21s seem to give me lots of trouble, but I did not finish the match with a 1911 either.

Are there any other folks out there who can put one of these matches on? Of course I won't be in the state VS state match since I can't get a pistol to go 1k rounds. There is always next year. L M

[MarshallDodge]

Again, not saying that the 1911 is unreliable. Mine can shoot 10k rounds without a hiccup... underwater... after being in a Rhino Butt..... but, so can my Glocks.

That's a bunch of BS. OOPS, I mean RS. :neener:

Have you ever tried deep frying your 1911? This would have to be the ultimate test: Deep Fried 1911 (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/video/torture/GATV0613_torture/) :D

[455SD]

MMMMMM.

Deep fried 1911s. I think they may offer those at the Texas state fair next year.

[Rinspeed]

Great thread guys, sounds like a blast. Would suck to drive 500 miles to have a bad primer end your day though. Just a thought but it would be interesting to know the total round count of each pistol entered.

[chieftain]

I think this is a wonderful service we could offer the shooting world.

Multiple state 1911 vs Glock shoot offs. Keep the rules simple so as to prevent "house rules" distorting the results.

The same rules that applied above. Any time there is ANY FTF. the weapon/shooter is a DNF. I believe that operator error in a REAL firefight will get you just as dead as a failed firearm. Doesn't matter why. Even to make any one brand/style cheerleader happy. Loose sights if the weapon can still shoot does not DNF a weapon. ( I would suggest a note in the MISC box though.)

Great rules. Now keep simple records. Caliber, number of shots at DNF, and such. If possible simple failure categories. (A)Ammo failure, (B)operator failure (DFO), (C)weapon failure (ie failed to lock back, fail to feed etc. I would include all questionable failures in this class too.), (D)Broken weapon and or parts (includes buffers, springs, sights etc). I would also supply round count or approx round count. That is all I would "officially" require. Any other data/information would come under MISC.

The weapon log in Brand (for 1911's) model, caliber, Any and all non factory mods, including sights, grips, firing mechanism mods, slide stops etc. If parts were put in by an Armor, Gunsmith, or if the weapon is a "custom". Spring strengths (ie recoil, trigger springs (if not stated stock, what pounds.) Buffers used in either 1911's or Glocks must be stated.

Oh yea, I think the 1000 round count is a good measure. I would suggest shooting non reset steel targets just for time savings. but the course of fire should be up to the individual club. I don't think this should be a speed shoot either, but other members may differ on this. I don't see speed of shooting in this case offering any advantage or disadvantage to the reliability of the guns.

Most importantly, if we choose to get carried away with this, lets get some one to correlate the data from all over the country and/or world.

This could be fun and useful. Try not to complicate it though. the real strength and usefulness would be in it's simplicity. Oh I think a website with access open to the public is important with the results.

Let folks see the real results for themselves. I guess other makes and models of weapons could be added, but I think broad categories should be kept. ie SIG, GLOCK, HK, Beretta, 1911, With enough data, but not blindingly boring detail, this could become a defacto industry standard data site.

Anyway, good luck, contact me, I would love to add to this growing legend and my hats off to you fellows who pioneered the way.

WELL DONE!

Fred

[Littlemac]

I am certainly with you on targets that don't have to be reset. We had one stage with 6 whirly gigs(5 targets each) and 14 1/2 size poppers and to reset them after each shooter at each of 5 different yard lines was a lot of work. Lesson learned there.

I will try to get you some hard data on type of pistol and shots fired before failure published shortly if DNS doesn't beat me to it.

I went with steel, as you either hit it or you don't and there isn't a lot of discussion on what has cut the line and what hasn't and you don't have to add as many scores. I think that helps with the speed of the match.

One year we allowed all shooters with failures to stay with the group and shoot the same stages as those in compeitiion and we ran out of day light. Needless to say it was a long day. Some folks don't like being segrated after they have a failure. But it does speed things up for those still trying to go 1K without a problem.

Thanks for the constructive critque, that helps with next year. LM

[Littlemac]

Pistol Model Factory # of rounds Cause for Failure
or Reloads
Glock 21 R 2 Slide lock with mag
Glock 17 R 2 Failure to Feed
Kimber Tac II F 6 Double Feed
Wilson 1911 F 7 Failure to Lock Back
Colt 1911 F 8 Failure to feed
Glock 22 F 8 Stove Pipe
Glock 17 R 8 Mag failure to lock in
Glock 35 R 49 Failure to Feed
10-8 NY 1911 F 279 Failure to Feed
Glock 17 F 344 No Slide lock on Empty
Glock 21 F 977 Failure to Lock Back
Glock 17 F 980 Sight off
Colt 1911 F 1008 Finished course of Fire
Glock 17 R 1073 Finished course of Fire
Glock 17L R 1167 Bad Primer

This is the first attempt at a summary. There were different scribes and different notations, and different note taking styles, so please keep in mind this is subject to correction.

Interesting Huh. LM

:D Typed in the block it looks good but the preview sucks

[JohnKSa]

So roughly half the entrants were done before they fired 10 rounds! :eek:

I guess maybe I don't understand the round count figures. It looks like the last three guns in the list fired more than 1000 rounds. And the 17L looks like it had a failure at almost 1200 round count and yet it isn't listed as finishing the course.

[eldon519]

I'd like to see a .45ACP 1911 vs. .45ACP Glock match. Take some of the variables out of the game. .45ACP is a different animal. It's a bigger cartridge that operates at lower pressure. Between the large powder charge and the lower burn efficiency, it'll be a dirty cartridge. Geometry also comes into play. Some cartridges just feed better than others.

Best I can tell without calculating actual match statistics, .45ACP Glocks don't have anything on .45ACP 1911s as far as reliability goes.

[455SD]

From what I have seen in these matches, I've shot in three, 45acp 1911s vs Glock 21s would be no contest in favor of the 1911s.

[combatantr2]

A glock failure at less than 1000rounds? Cant be. Chuck Taylor did test a G17 to 100,000 with 1 failure, right?:what: Of course thats what I read over the internet, it must be the truth :rolleyes:

[Double Naught Spy]

So roughly half the entrants were done before they fired 10 rounds

I don't believe that is fully correct, but since we were in two squads, I was not fully up to speed with what was going on in the other squad while it was happening.

I shot the Wilson CQB and it failed during the 3rd stage. I had completed two stages for a total of 83 rounds. My guess is that the 7 round notation for the Wilson is that maybe it failed on the 7th round of stage 3. I don't recall where it failed in the stage. We stopped long enough to note the fault and then I finished the stage.

[45auto]

Double Naught,

Failure to lock back on an empty mag, or with ammo still left in mag?

[taliv]

midway's got a great sale on blemished hornady XTPs, et al... $8/100! they are going fast though. they had some flat points for $6/100 and when i put them in my cart they had qty 15, and by the time i checked out, they were in single digits

i'm feeling motivated to head out to my local range and run this 1000 rnd test myself. i'll have to practice a few times before the match this time next year. :)

[yongxingfreesty]

wow. those glocks were defective. out of all the glocks ive owned, ZERO malfunctions.

[1lostinspace]

lol I have shot 1000 rounds of wolf through my G17 and 21 in a day and have never had those problems as a matter a fact last year my friends family came with we went though a half of case one day and a case and a half the next.
Sounds like the guys your talking about are using Jack in the Box springs nad Guns.

[Charles S]

wow. those glocks were defective. out of all the glocks ive owned, ZERO malfunctions.

lol I have shot 1000 rounds of wolf through my G17 and 21 in a day and have never had those problems as a matter a fact last year my friends family came with we went though a half of case one day and a case and a half the next.
Sounds like the guys your talking about are using Jack in the Box springs nad Guns.

LOL...I am sure everyone else's gun's and skills are inferior to yours....Why don't you put your money where your mouths are and shoot the match. You can show us all how it is done.

I plan on shooting next year...If I get the invite and can work it our with my schedule.

It is always funny to read on the internet how many peoples guns never have a malfunction. I rarely find that to be true in the classes I have taken. Of course if you never shoot, or only shoot slow fire at targets then you many never have a problem.

[taliv]

hey, another useful piece of data you should collect for the next match is an estimated round count through the pistols prior to the start of the match.

for instance, were the 3 glocks that failed almost NIB? or did they have 20k rnds of IDPA competition through them already?

i'd be curious to hear how many total rounds that wilson has through it as well.

[chieftain]

It is always funny to read on the internet how many peoples guns never have a malfunction. I rarely find that to be true in the classes I have taken. Of course if you never shoot, or only shoot slow fire at targets then you many never have a problem.


BINGO!

The more these type shoots happen the REALITY of shooting under the eye of a "judge" changes the results. The classic statements, "it was a bad round", "it was just dirty", "I didn't XYZ", "but it's not the gun." YEA!

In real life, under stress, tired, inattention, etc... STUFF happens. It is ALL part of gun fighting. It is amazing that folks don't believe their personal "Death Ray" is mortal and can and will fail under fire. Regardless of what the manufacturer, gun writers, and the guys you go drinking with say, ALL GUNS BREAK, ALL GUNS WEAR OUT, ALL GUNS NEED "PROPER" MAINTENANCE. Shocking isn't it?

Denial, the drug that just keeps on giving.

Go figure.

Fred

[Littlemac]

Yeah one problem DNS pointed out was the desparity between what he reported and what I reported. He knows where his gun failed and on what stage and I as the reader of the score sheet did not know which stages had been fired and which had not so if he says he went 83 rounds before a problem then I stand corrected.

Next time I will provide a means to determine the sequence of the stages fired. Each year a little tweaking makes it better.

what does it actually prove? Only what you make of it and like most things in life it depends on your point of view.

I am out of here. See you next year. LM :D

[30 cal slob]

this is a great thread and a great idea.

would you be open to allowing other platforms (like HK and SIG) into the contest at some point? i would be bored to tears just looking at glocks and 1911's fail all day. :p

seriously, this would be a fun idea to set up in my neck of the woods with a bunch of pistoleros.

[distra]

Blackhawk,
It must be something in the water out there, here in Ct the only time a Glock fails to fire is when it has a dud round in the chamber.

There must be some magic over there by Hartford, 'cause in my part of CT Glocks jam, fail to fire, and even go "boom" just like any other pistol. The most "reliable" (i.e. least failures, not zero, but least number) pistol I've seen at our IDPA matches has been the Berretta 92. Any pistol will malfunction and it is interesting how internet pistol reviewer state their pistols never fail.

chieftain, you speak the truth. It is what it is...a man made mechanical device that will fail.

Nice test though. Maybe we should have one in CT...

[Double Naught Spy]

I will tell y'all what. I have a place where a small group of us can shoot. I have been in touch with JohnKSa and Littlemac on this for planning issues and in touch with several more of you just to see if there is enough interest. Here is what I would like to propose. This may be refined, but the general ideas seem solid.

I will host a 1000 round match at my place for up to 12 shooters. It will be in the late winter or early spring and take place just south of the Red River in North Central Texas about 90 minutes from of DFW airport. Judging from Littlemac's experience at his matches, that means I can probably accept 16-18 shooters of which 1/4-1/2 will fail to show. If we have a surplus of shooters, I will be glad not to shoot and just RO.

The preliminary course of fire will be this...

20 stages of 50 rounds per stage
All 50 rounds are to be shot within a set time, say 90 seconds (barring malfs)
Every malf will be recorded for the full duration or until shooter/gun quits.
No gun will be allowed to be serviced once the first shot is fired. So no cleaning, lubing, wiping, tightening, repairing, or otherwise adjusting, etc.

Malfunctions will be noted as to when they occurred in the stage and described based on descriptive and NOT diagnostic parameters. For example, a hammer drop on a live round that does not detonate will be a FAIL TO FIRE and not be called a hard primer, light primer strike, or bad primer since a determination of the of these specific causes would require a detailed examination of all the components involved before the issue could be resolved. Similarly, a FAIL TO FEED issue won't be attributed to bad ammo, weak mag spring, or a weak recoil spring. And so on.

The malfunction will be cleared by the shooter while being documented by a recordkeeper and the shooter will then finish the stage.

Requirements:
1. Shooters much have state concealed carry permit or LEO certs. That is just the screening process since few of us will actually know each other other before the match.
2. 7 magazines or more for their gun and the mags must hold at least 7 rounds. Each stage will be shot starting with one in the chamber and then the 7 mags so that shooters all have a comparable number of magazine changes.
3. 1000 rounds of ammo
4. Semi auto pistol for the match
5. Typical eye and ear protection

Strongly suggested aspects...
1. Stock pistols, ESPECIALLY PISTOLS THAT NEVER MALFUNCTION
2. Factory ammo

Targets will be steel targets. There will be approximately 4 different setups shot 5 times each. Unlike Littlemac's matches, you don't have to hit the target for a shot to count. Distances will be varied and some longer range shooting (50 yards or so) will take place.

Anyone with formal RO experience that can help run the match is encouraged. Everyone will be pressed into service to help expedite things, be it record keeping, target maintenance, basic cleanup, etc.

PM me with an email address if you want to attend. Those of you with whom I have been in contact, if I don't have an email for you, please PM me. I will take your suggestions for modifications to the match parameters via email, especially once the match date is set.

Credentials will be required at the time of the match, but will not be copied or otherwise recorded.

[taliv]

i can't go to texas this winter, but i can host a similar match in middle-TN. (except i don't want to see your credentials)

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

(except i don't want to see your credentials)

You`ve got to ask for`m. You don`t want to get some "crazies" at your place do ya? Simple CCL`s would work.

I said "got to" you`re grown so I suppose that you can do what you`d like. No offense intended.

If I could get a sponser, I`d try one of these matches down here in MS.
I know lots of guys who claim to have "fail proof" handguns and would probably love it at least until their "failproof" gun fails. hahahaha

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

Hey DNSPY, PM me some info on "how to`s" and the rules that you`ve came up with thus far if you can. I`ll make a loop around here to some of the local gunstores and a few friends and see what it looks like down here.

The only problem that I forsee is that guys probably will not want to put their guns through such torture. I mean, you`re talking about a barrell assembly is almost automatic after such a match along with the expense of the thing. Other than that, we`ll see.

[Double Naught Spy]

The only problem that I forsee is that guys probably will not want to put their guns through such torture. I mean, you`re talking about a barrell assembly is almost automatic after such a match along with the expense of the thing. Other than that, we`ll see.

Please don't tell me you have started the whining by proxy already. You aren't going to make it, but are making up excuses for others? That was the cool thing about the TDSA match and Littlemac's matches. It is all about put up or shut up. I don't care why people don't want to attend, can't, or won't. They aren't part of the solution.

Contrary to opinions, this is hardly a torture test. At worst, guns in good repair simply get dirty and gum up a bit and then don't function properly which results in a malfunction. It may be an endurance test, but we ain't lubing the guns with diatomaceous earth, loading them up with charge +50% loads, or shooting them while on fire.

I don't know what you are asking for in regard to how tos and rules. The rules are in post 106. What "how tos" are you talking about?

[chieftain]

The only problem that I forsee is that guys probably will not want to put their guns through such torture. I mean, you`re talking about a barrell assembly is almost automatic after such a match along with the expense of the thing. Other than that, we`ll see.

Any of my pistols that would need a barrel after this 1000 round challenge, I would consider defective.

The Highest round gun I own is a SIG 228 with about 37,500 rounds through it. Yea, close to forty Thousand.

But as to my 1911's, my highest round 1911 right now is 11,700 on my #1 Kimber Warrior. And I know it is defective. Nothing breaks (all the MIM, and non hand finishing not withstanding). I run 181/2lb springs in mine vs stock. All ammo shot is full strenght factory230gr hardball for a power level of 192. In competition I run a buffer. IN my CCW a Colt Gunsite Pistol I do not run buffers.

I began campaigning a Glock 34 in the Steel Challenge this summer. I haven't gone back to check but I have approximately 4300 rounds through it. For IDPA and Bowling Pins I still prefer my #1 Warrior. (May begin using #2)

Fred

[taliv]

You`ve got to ask for`m. You don`t want to get some "crazies" at your place do ya? Simple CCL`s would work.

never been to a shooting range where they asked to see my ID. not that i'm really opposed to it. i'm just not concerned. events like this attract "knob creek crazies" not "axe-murderer crazies" :)


Please don't tell me you have started the whining by proxy already.

no doubt!

[Rinspeed]

Please don't tell me you have started the whining by proxy already.


Lol

[JohnKSa]

...never been to a shooting range where they asked to see my ID.I've been to at least two that take your photo ID and keep it until you're done shooting. I've been to others where they take down personal information.

Besides, this is not a public shooting range, this is DNS' private property.

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

Please don't tell me you have started the whining by proxy already.Wow.
The Highest round gun I own is a SIG 228 with about 37,500 rounds through it.Must keep good records. You shoot a thousand at a time? in 50 minutes? just curious. I`ve got a Mossberg 12 guage that`s probably had 50 or 60 thousand rounds through it. Great gun and?????

I`d love to shoot in your match and I was only stating expected questions of "why" that I`d get when approaching my shooting buddies and gunstore owners about it. I didn`t expect to get such a reply from you but Ok.

After speeking with my freind, a gunsmith with Extreme Outfitters, and the gunsmiths at Gander Mountain, they`ve informed me that ANY gun, whether it be a 100 dollar piece of junk or a 2500 dollar gun can fail at any given time regardless of their condition, which I had already assumed. In my discussion, they just happened to say the exact same words,"crapshoot" and "luck of the draw" along with the fact of this type match only increasing the chances of a failure "down the line" when you may need it the most. They gave me a list of parts that I may need for the ultimate edge for the two guns that I`d thought of participating with and a list of parts that would very likely be affected by this type match. I think that any new style of shooting sport is great but I think that this may be more suited for the more wealthy individuals. I guess I`ll stick with the more contemporary styled shooting but I wish you guys the best and hope that this grows into it`s own monster. Good luck to you guys.
I`ve enjoyed this thread. It`s been, for the most part, very informative and there`s a wealth of information for everyone. solong

[Halo is for Kids]

I`ve got a Mossberg 12 gauge that`s probably had 50 or 60 thousand rounds through it.

60,000!?! Seriously??? That's a round a day for over 160 years! Heck, that's a box a day for over 6 years!

Got a pic of that Mossberg? It must look pretty used.

Wait, never mind the shotgun, let's see a pic of your shoulder.

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

I`ve been shooting it for about ,well I can`t remember but it was my dad`s until he passed away. I actually kept it most of the time and hunted almost EVERYTHING with it as a kid. My buds and I shoot skeets most every weekend in a dirt pit nearby so yeah, we get a deal on paper shells and shoot the crap out of`m. Last weekend I don`t actually keep count man, but just two of us shot 18 boxes.You`d be surprised. hahaha Oh , a pic, OK Yeah it`s beat to death but it has NEVER failed me EVER. and I love it just the way it is.

How`s this for a pic? Excuse the mess.

[Double Naught Spy]

After speeking with my freind, a gunsmith with Extreme Outfitters, and the gunsmiths at Gander Mountain, they`ve informed me that ANY gun, whether it be a 100 dollar piece of junk or a 2500 dollar gun can fail at any given time regardless of their condition, which I had already assumed. In my discussion, they just happened to say the exact same words,"crapshoot" and "luck of the draw" along with the fact of this type match only increasing the chances of a failure "down the line" when you may need it the most. They gave me a list of parts that I may need for the ultimate edge for the two guns that I`d thought of participating with and a list of parts that would very likely be affected by this type match. I think that any new style of shooting sport is great but I think that this may be more suited for the more wealthy individuals. I guess I`ll stick with the more contemporary styled shooting but I wish you guys the best and hope that this grows into it`s own monster. Good luck to you guys.

Got it. Your gunsmiths took a look at your gun and said there wasn't any way it was going 1000 rounds without some parts being replaced and even then they would not stand by there work. Between the repairs, ammo, and wear and tear, you can't afford the match. I fully understand your excuses.

From Woodstock72000's post (#21)
Isn`t it funny how quickly excuses are given from people that own the models that were indicated to fail without being there?
Yep, it is about as funny as how quickly excuses are given from people who aren't even going to be there. LOL

I just bought a Glock 22, .40 and the reason that I bought it is because it`s utilized by more police departments and government officials than any other. Tried and trued.
Tried and true, but willing to concede it may fail at any time for any reason? Do you really think all those departments buy Glocks because they believe they could fail at any time? Sorry, but but you have some conflicting statements.

I`d love to shoot in your match and I was only stating expected questions of "why" that I`d get when approaching my shooting buddies and gunstore owners about it.
Well in the spirit of the previous 1000 round matches, it is a Put up or Shut up kind of match. Originally, it was to quell some of the bickering between 1911 and Glock people as a fun grudge match.

Woodstock72000, you are a classic reason why we have the matches. You came on with lots of big talk, then started making excuses only AFTER I announced the match and invited folks like you to attend.

Wow.

[Rinspeed]

In my discussion, they just happened to say the exact same words,"crapshoot" and "luck of the draw" along with the fact of this type match only increasing the chances of a failure "down the line" when you may need it the most. They gave me a list of parts that I may need for the ultimate edge for the two guns that I`d thought of participating with and a list of parts that would very likely be affected by this type match.



Uh, It's only a 1000 rounds.

[Choclabman]

i can't go to texas this winter, but i can host a similar match in middle-TN. (except i don't want to see your credentials

Doing such a match would be fun.
I'm in
When and where? :)

[Noxx]

DoubleNaught your TX match interests me, as I traditionally travel from the PRK to Las Cruces every march. I'd love to enter my Sig in one of these.

The biggest concern I'd have is that "failure to lock open on empty" is a DQ failure, the way I ride the slide release on the 226 would have me out in 10 rounds.

[taliv]

I've been to at least two that take your photo ID and keep it until you're done shooting. I've been to others where they take down personal information.

Besides, this is not a public shooting range, this is DNS' private property.

i don't mind if anyone else does it. i don't mind showing my id if i can make it to that match.

choclab, dunno. maybe late january or march?

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

Got it. Your gunsmiths took a look at your gun and said there wasn't any way it was going 1000 rounds without some parts being replaced
hahaha Man you`re really out there! All talk?!! What are you talking about?? Read my posts here and explain yourself.

Or Don`t, I don`t care, I have great handguns of 4 different Manufacturers including Glock,Ruger,CZ and now Smith and Wesson. I think I`ll take the advise of the pros. So again I say to you, have fun.

[AndyC]

1,000 rounds used to be about 2 weekends' worth of shooting for me. Assuming I get my CHL etc by that time, I'm game.

[chieftain]

I've been to at least two that take your photo ID and keep it until you're done shooting. I've been to others where they take down personal information.

Besides, this is not a public shooting range, this is DNS' private property.

I have been to many ranges across the country that required ID, and held your Drivers License while shooting there.

Besides, all else aside, His house, his rules. Don’t like’em don’t come. That is exactly what it means to be an American on his own property.


Quote:
The Highest round gun I own is a SIG 228 with about 37,500 rounds through it.

Must keep good records. You shoot a thousand at a time? in 50 minutes? just curious.

My record keeping is actually pretty sorry. Ask my accountant some time. But I do keep records.

NO, I did not shoot a thousand at a time. I did shoot as many as 500 in a several day match. I have shot 2000-3000 in various training classes, over the course of a long weekend or week. My own training sessions are usually about 200 rounds. My fun shoots can get up into the 500 range on a gun if I have my family with me. Both my daughters prefer 45’s. My oldest likes the Glock 30, my youngest at 4’10” prefers ole’ slab side, 1911 Government.

That 228 was my competition gun for about 3 years, in the 90’s. I chose SIG at that time because I was transitioning from competing with revolvers. I had tried many of the readily available Semi Auto’s including Glock, and didn’t think they could give me the combination of reliability and ease of function.

My Dept carried SIG 226 in 9mm at the time. I like SIG’s, arguably, in my opinion, I believe those West German and Early German SIG’s with the stamped metal slides were some of the most reliable semi Automatic handguns ever made. I hang on to mine. (except that 225 that got away)


The biggest concern I'd have is that "failure to lock open on empty" is a DQ failure, the way I ride the slide release on the 226 would have me out in 10 rounds

I shot SIG’s competitively as stated above, and after the first month never had that slide lock problem again. During my SIG Competitive days is when I transitioned to a thumbs forward grip. Fly the right thumb, and it will not happen. Watch Earnest Langston if you can find any video of when he campaigned SIG’s and won the IDPA National title with a SIG 220 a few years ago.

As to 10 rounds, in this kind of competition I would bring the hi cap/normal magazines. 15 rounds in 9 and 12 rounds in 40/357 for the SIG’s. Or if you have some of the factory SWAT mags, they will hold 20 rounds in 9mm.


I think I`ll take the advise of the pros. So again I say to you, have fun.

I think that’s a good idea for you, stick to what other people tell you. We will have fun.

Something here doesn’t pass the stink test. I own S&W‘s, Ruger‘s, and Glocks and a bunch of other marks. I don’t own a CZ. Could you send us the name of these “Professional” Gunsmiths that say these guns can’t make a 1000 round shoot? If they are in business, you would not be giving away “private” information. After all by your definition they are “Professional’s”.

Even your own story, 60,000 rounds through a mossy 500 shotgun. I would not say it can’t happen, I am just a bit skeptical. Understand my primary defense shotgun is the Mossy 590, which is a hardened/militarized version of the 500 so I am familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the weapon. I have about 3300 rounds through mine. I have replaced parts and had a ‘smith’ replace parts over the years although I prefer to do as much work as possible on my own weapons.

I have seen 100,000 round pistols still working (not my own). I have seen 25,000 round rifles still working, But I have never seen a 60,000 thousand round shotgun still working. Saw a 170,000 round Glock 17 fail with the lower barrel lugs shear on the original barrel.

All those above weapons had good maintenance and ALL had work and repairs done to them or even rebuilds. But every competition pistol I have ever seen would normally be able to run a1000 rounds without a problem.

Go figure.

Fred

[Double Naught Spy]

Noxx, NO DQs unless excessive malfs, a gun breaks or is deemed unsafe to shoot. Otherwise, we document everything for 1000 rounds.

PM me.

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

stick to what other people tell you

"other people" = 3 professional gunsmiths with a combined 42 years of experience and a gunstore owner who`s been in business for thirty years. So yeah, I will.

Even your own story, 60,000 rounds through a mossy 500 shotgun. I would not say it can’t happen, I am just a bit skeptical. hahaha You would know. I don`t know how much other people shoot and I don`t claim to know or care. I probably average 250 shells a week with the old booger, sorry if yours failed ya, and 200 combined rounds per week through handguns, it`s what I do. I`m not a gunsmith nor am I an expert on a Mossberg or any other gun but I am a shooter. I`ve got 6 chokes for the Mossberg and it`s the only shotgun that I own. You`ve got a lot of nerve in calling me a liar. Frankly, I don`t care what you think but I do think that very,very few people keep a count over several years of each round that passes through the barrel of their guns. I`ve never kept count but A good guess of 60 thousand rounds would be very close to the amount that`s been through my old Mossberg and there will be thousands more until it turns to rust. So you keep counting and I`ll keep shooting. I have a spotter that I`ve used for about 10 years but I guess I`ll have to hire a counter now, you want the job?

[lastresort777]

Wow, this is a strange type match. I`ve got Mossy that`s got probably at least 50 k through it. I can`t see why this is so unbelievable. I`m new to this sight and this is my first post so Hi, to all.

[455SD]

I know a poster here that does keep an exact round count of every round that goes down the pipe of his pistol. When he states he has shot X number of rounds, he has.

In my experience, when people estimate how many rounds they have shot, they usually guess high. Sometimes way high.

As far as taking the advice of a gunsmith or other "professional" in the business, I look at them like car salesmen--I've never met one that wasn't at least a little full of ****. It is really funny that they recommend something they are selling to solve your problem. Gander Mountain?? Enough said.

This match is put on just for the internet commandos and their super tacticool hardware that never fails. Put up or shut up. If you are not willing to shoot then why comment?

Maybe woodstock72000@yahoo.com should shoot the match with his Mossberg? It seems to be the most reliable firearm on the net.

[Beyond_Perfection]

I would really like to shoot this with my 1911Sc

But I would beg to shoot it with my M&P .40

[hotwheelz]

Here is another guy with a mossy 500a pumper and I have had since my 18th b-day , it has seen all kinds of ammo, killed 100s of ducks I couldnt sit here a even try to give you a round count but it a $%!! load. I can remeber going out with the guys and cases of ammo and logging some trees via the mossberg chain saw. I have no problem with your round count and estimate mine is 30k ++++. But it just a guess as far as how my shoulder may look I work hard and this stuff doesnt bother me if shooting a shotgun bothers you shoulder try the gym once in awhile it may help with a pad, or just stick to a .22 dosent seem to bother my niece any. My mossy is the first gun in the truck on duck'n days some may laugh it got some pitting and its sloppy but the ducks if they could would tell you it works great I think the last time the mossberg chainsaw fired up I heard some winny @$$ tree hugger crying:neener:

[lastresort777]

Apparently to disagree here is not allowed. I didn`t see any statements by woody that said anything about the gunsmith trying to sale him anything. Only a list of items that he would need. This is a very closed-minded and aggresive forum. Sorry for interupting these apparent experts. There is another forum that seems to have more openminded discussions that I can give anyone who`s interested. Just send me a P.M. and I`ll give the site to ya. I don`t want to offend THR by posting it.

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

Lastresort777, Don`t worry about this discussion and definetly don`t think that this is a normal thread. Yeah I never said anything about a salesman trying to sale me anything. Some people just don`t like to be disagreed with. You`ll find that there are a lot of 1 inch groupers at 25 + yards and that sort of thing and a few guys that are difficult to carry on an educated discussion but they are few and far between. I`ve made about 30 friends and lots of other great aquaintances and I`ve only had 2 or 3 "run-ins" such as this. So just hang around because there is some great info on this forum. Oh, and don`t let`m scare ya off with the old,"I`ve got more posts than you so you can`t comment" either. Hang out and have fun.

[lastresort777]

I`ve seen you on that other post haven`t I? You`re the one that works with --- I`ll send you a PM.

[hotwheelz]

lastresort777
I dont know what was said to upset you but relax no one is trying to scare you away and to take someone whom you dont know opinion to hart not good. doesnt matter were you go in life there are morons this place is not excluded from those rules of life. I would hope you would stay as a pretty new member myself Im hear to find good info when I can and some good laughs at those who couldnt find there nose in broad daylight. :):):):)

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Just a note for readers who might dig this up later, lastresort777 and woodstock72000 are the same person. You might want to consider that in evaluating the credibility of their posts.

[Rinspeed]

Just a note for readers who might dig this up later, lastresort777 and woodstock72000 are the same person. You might want to consider that in evaluating the credibility of their posts.


If that is the case then they/he should be banned.

[Charles S]

Just a note for readers who might dig this up later, lastresort777 and woodstock72000 are the same person. You might want to consider that in evaluating the credibility of their posts.

Thanks for the information. I always hate when someone brings the level of conversation down like that....

The round count without breakages seemed awfully high, but I will take one at their word until they prove they are no longer trustworthy.

[taliv]

the first sign of being untrustworthy, is the inability to construct a simple paragraph. I don't know anyone with 10,000+ rnds of experience who can't also make subjects and verbs agree, or find the comma key on their keyboard at just the right moment.

[TexasRifleman]

Well I talked to Double Naught, and I am gonna get in on this when it happens.

I don't usually track round count but this particular 10MM 1911 was my IPSC gun for years and I keep the empty primer boxes so I can have some idea of how many rounds it's fired. I lay the boxes flat and throw them on a shelf. Each box held 1000 primers, WLP to be precise.

I have 58 boxes tossed up on a shelf.

That will be the gun I run in this. I remember very few failures of any kind but my luck I'll get 20 rounds in and it will stovepipe for the first time ever :)

Either way it will be interesting.

Not nearly as interesting as watching a poster here talking to themselves, but still interesting.

[dwave]

Just read through this thread, very interesting really. I would enter my fully stock Colt 1911a1 Govt. Model. It's from WWII, made in 1943. Don't know how good it is, but I have never had to replace any parts, it's all original. I got it from a guy who had it in WWII. Too bad I got Laid off and have no money, lol, but it happens! If you have one near OH and my job situation is good, I'm in!

I figured that lastresort777 and woodstock72000 was the same person just the way they reacted and talked. Bartholomew Roberts confirmed it.

[hotwheelz]

Well I guess Im all alone with mossberg glee if woodstock and lastresort are the same guy then there word dosent mean crap, Im happy with my mossberg dont know how much longer it will hold up but its paid for itself time and again I would have no problem saying it can run 500+ without mishap{ I guess I got cought up in the round count Im not saying it hasnt had a fubar a time or 3 in its history and my count is a guess???} but Im a little far away to play with you guys. Actions speak louder then words in this instance so Ill shut up and let the people participating give us there results. Hope you guys have fun.

[atblis]

If I were entering a match such as this, I would do my own quality check on the ammo. Perhaps even run it all through a Lee FC die.

[Littlemac]

How in the world did you find out that woodstock and last resort were the same guy. What a putz.

Let me see what else this guy has done. Wow. LM

[tnieto2004]

Just a note for readers who might dig this up later, lastresort777 and woodstock72000 are the same person. You might want to consider that in evaluating the credibility of their posts.

HAHA .. I figured that while reading and was thinking someone would point it out .. They both use that weird apostrophe ( ` instead of ' )..

The admin most likely found out by checking the IP of the user ..

[Wayne G.]

Seems like I recall that it's a violation of THR policy to use more than one screen name, etc. Now I see why!

Every post has been some BS or flaming or trolling. Now, there's an alias to co-sign it all!

That's funny!

[RNB65]

Just a note for readers who might dig this up later, lastresort777 and woodstock72000 are the same person. You might want to consider that in evaluating the credibility of their posts.

I've read some of Woody's other posts. He has no credibility. Just very thin skin. :evil:

[BamBam-31]

Just a note for readers who might dig this up later, lastresort777 and woodstock72000 are the same person. You might want to consider that in evaluating the credibility of their posts.


pwn3d!! :D

Thank God! This guy was irritating the hell out of me with his inane posts. Please tell me he's banned for breaking the multiple user names rule as well as trolling ever since he joined THR.

[Noxx]

Just read through this thread, very interesting really. I would enter my fully stock Colt 1911a1 Govt. Model. It's from WWII, made in 1943.

Can you hear the sound of me wincing from there? Imagine you break a barrel link doing it and your WWII 45 is no longer 100%. Ouch.

[taliv]

i got distracted by the idiocy and overlooked this post:

I don't usually track round count but this particular 10MM 1911 was my IPSC gun for years and I keep the empty primer boxes so I can have some idea of how many rounds it's fired. I lay the boxes flat and throw them on a shelf. Each box held 1000 primers, WLP to be precise.

I have 58 boxes tossed up on a shelf.

:what::what:

you've shot 58,000 rnds of 10MM and call yourself a rifleman? :)
I don't know anyone personally who has fired more than a few boxes of 10MM through any kind of gun. that's pretty dang impressive in any caliber, but for 10MM, that's just crazy. maybe they should have a heavy metal category or something.

I can't wait to hear how your gun does in the next match. best of luck.

[atblis]

If you handload, it costs about the same as 40 S&W.

[dwave]

Can you hear the sound of me wincing from there? Imagine you break a barrel link doing it and your WWII 45 is no longer 100%. Ouch.

Thats true, but I won't have a gun that I am not willing to shoot, so it does get used. I could use my Delta Elite, but it isn't a 1911 .45. Not full stock, but very close, I only added a full length guide rod.

[Double Naught Spy]

Can you hear the sound of me wincing from there? Imagine you break a barrel link doing it and your WWII 45 is no longer 100%. Ouch.

Nobody shoots 100% WWII 45s, so it isn't an issue. If it is a WWII 45, either it ain't 100% or it is a safe queen and won't be shot.

[dwave]

It is 100% original and I do shoot it. Not as much as my other guns, but it does get shot. As I have already said, I won't own a gun I am not willing to shoot. It's not always one or the other. Maybe I am strange, but I am not lying and it sure isn't a safe queen!

Here have a look at it:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=34783&stc=1&d=1138668951

Also I have stated, I got it from a guy who carried that pistol in WWII. He was stationed in a place where he seen no action. The pistol was hardly ever used.

[Double Naught Spy]

You may be right, but my understanding of a gun being 100% was that it was factory fresh with no wear and tear.

Then there is also a finish rating that many folks use. The finish may be 100% even if the gun is not.

[taliv]

i think when someone says "100% original" they are saying they haven't replaced any parts. I don't think it implies anything at all about the condition of those parts. If you just say a gun is "100%" then that means it's factory fresh with no wear and tear.

[455SD]

That is a fine looking Colt, but I seriously doubt it has seen the inside of a holster. It is in too good a shape.

[dwave]

Yep, I didn't say the finish was 100%, I said it was all original sorry if I didn't get that clear to begin with! :) . Thanks, it is a great looking colt. The Frame has no to extremely little wear, but the barrel does have some of the finish knocked off from shooting it, but that is all. Excellent shape really. No it hasn't seen much life in a holster either. Anyways, you are probably right in not putting it through a torture test, but I won't stop shooting it every now and then! Maybe I would use my Delta Elite for the 1911 platform.

[Double Naught Spy]

i think when someone says "100% original"

Maybe so, but that wasn't said until after my post. Before that, the gun was called both all original and 100% in different posts, hence the confusion.

[dwave]

Maybe so, but that wasn't said until after my post. Before that, the gun was called both all original and 100% in different posts, hence the confusion.

It's all straightened out, so its all good, lol.

[yesit'sloaded]

I could afford to do this match only if I barrow a friends Kimber with a .22 conversion. Are .22 conversions allowed?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Please tell me he's banned for breaking the multiple user names rule as well as trolling ever since he joined THR.

As a general rule, we don't discuss the banning of members from THR. I can say though that having multiple accounts and using them simultaneously is absolutely the type of conduct violation that will get you banned without further comment or warning - as will reregistering after a previous name has been banned.

[jrosto]

I would like to participate in this match on the 1911 side. I have been interested in shooting one of these since I learned about the matches at TDSA.

[Double Naught Spy]

I could afford to do this match only if I barrow a friends Kimber with a .22 conversion. Are .22 conversions allowed?

It would hardly be stock, but being stock isn't required. You actually think the conversion will work very well. We have one that is okay, but not great by any stretch.

Also, the original spirit of the match was comparing combat pistols, but we could do .22 conversions as well. You don't get to complain about being tired if you shoot a .22, however.

[455SD]

OH COME ON!!!!

Bitching about being tired and shooting poorly because of it, is half the fun of the match.

[saltydog452]

Double Naught,

Thanks for a great thread and, apparently a fun match.

Will you post notice before the next match will be held? I doubt that I'll be able to shoot by that time, but maybe I can make myself useful on the range.

Thanks,

salty.

[Double Naught Spy]

saltydog, the match announcement is posted here, fyi...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=312764

The date is April 26, 2008.

It has been a great thread. It is the most posted Competition thread so far at THR and in the top 10 for views of a Competition thread. Now if we can just have that much actual interest at the match...;)

[dwave]

It has been a great thread. It is the most posted Competition thread so far at THR and in the top 10 for views of a Competition thread. Now if we can just have that much actual interest at the match...

I bet if you advertised free beer AFTER The match, I am sure that it would have alot of interest! :)

[Double Naught Spy]

The local town is Forestburg. They have a newly opened Weinhauf, but I don't think free is in the making.

Right now there have been 13 folks who have emailed me with interest, most from Texas, but one from Alabama, one from Arizona, one from Nevada, and 2 from Oklahoma, with a possible Michigan. If I offered free beer, I bet I could get folks from Alaska.;)

[saltydog452]

Double Naught,

Got it and Bookmarked.

Thanks,

salty.

[Hawk]

I'll email an application if the roster doesn't fill up - I couldn't hang with the IDPA types but I can fill a spare lane.

I've got a semi I've been curious about when it'll gag - might as well have fun finding out. Better still, it's a polymer 1911 in .40. As such, it'll disappoint both the polymer and 1911 crowd simultaneously. It's of reduced size and not shot by Chuck Norris so the odds are long.

It's already had some malfs attempting to shoot .40 S&W from a .45 ACP magazine. The proviso that the gun "never have malfunctioned" is intended as tongue-in-cheek, enh?

[CountGlockula]

Double Naught Spy: Can't wait for the next one!

Maybe post up some pictures next time? Thanks for the great idea!

[Littlemac]

I am bring a gun that has never had a malfunction. Never.

All the time I have had it, it has never cough, sputtered, failed to seat or failed to extract or had any other kind of failure.

Anyone else bringing a pistol that has never had a problem?

LM:D

[JohnKSa]

The one I'm planning to bring hasn't malfunctioned. I haven't shot it in awhile so I'm going to take it to the range before the match--I'll report back, but in the unlikely event that it jams on me I'll probably switch to something else.

[Double Naught Spy]

Heck, maybe I will buy a super reliable Kel Tec P32 and a bunch of spare mags for the match!

[1lostinspace]

I have owned Glocks for a long time and have talked to allot of range owners these problems you mentioned in one competition don't happen over a full year of shooting all day long.

They all say the same thing "they are used more than any gun and break the list."

Here is how reliable a Glock should be.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

[Double Naught Spy]

Funny, that is how reliable they should be, along with other guns.

Bring your Glock to the next match.

[Charles S]

Bring your Glock to the next match.

ROTFLMAO!!!! That is funny.

My _________ never fails.

I can shoot less than 0.________ inch groups any day.

Except when there is a match with pressure and witnesses.

[chieftain]

I have owned Glocks for a long time and have talked to allot of range owners these problems you mentioned in one competition don't happen over a full year of shooting all day long.

They all say the same thing "they are used more than any gun and break the list."

Here is how reliable a Glock should be.


I am pretty new to glocks, I have only owned 9 or so over the last 16 years. Never really cared for them or found them particularly more or less reliable than any other Quality Marque. The Primary problem was primarily the magazine for me. I seem to have solved that problem along with Glock and their, I believe, 6th generation magazines. (I was told it was the 6th generation otherwise they could be blowing smoke up my skirt.) For a recent example, I do know my Glock 19 does not like the 5th generation magazines at all. Just plumb refuses to feed from them reliably.

I have not carried a Glock for CCW, and just started competing with one this last summer. I replaced a 1911 in the competition mode, with a Glock 34 just to save money on ammo.

Now excluding the magazines, I have seen Glocks KB, I have seen them shear rails, I have seen them sheer barrel lugs, and most just broke trigger springs. I think they are pretty rugged, but no where near where the kool aid can be found.

I remember when the Ohio State Police were going to dump their Beretta 96's for lack of reliability. They had a shoot off.

IIRC, 15,000 rounds, cleaned every so many etc. They also had a subjective section. All entered weapons were either 40 S&W or 45acp.

The reliability stage was won IN ORDER by: (NUMBER OF ftf ARE APPROX BECAUSE OF MY MEMORY)

SIG 226 40S&W 4 FTF
SIG 229 40S&W 6 FTF
HK USP FULLsize 40S&W SIZE 11 FTF
GLOCK 22 13 FTF

And the list went on. Notable was that everyones 45acps were DNF. Everyones.

Doesn't really matter what you think or your opinion. In real endurance shoots, very few weapons are as reliable as folks think. Even their own guns.

What folks forget, that a hung mag, failure to lock back, that quick tap rack etc.... are all ftf's. Not blaming ammo Malfunctions now. DFO's (dump_______ Operators) matter in competition and real gun fighting too. And under the "gun" doesn't make working your weapon easier either.

I think operator error should count. If you apply the law of large numbers, operator error should be illuminating too. For instance, SIG's reputation for not locking back on the last round, isn't a weapons failure, it is almost exclusively an Operators error related to the position of the the slide lock/release.

If we had a week, we could talk about the problems with the 1911 too. Lots of them to discuss, and a substantial increase in potential operating errors too.

Fact is most folks don't know the weak points of the weapons they carry and shoot. Why because they choose, buy, shoot and justify what ever they have or like. We all do.

Go figure.

Fred

[JohnKSa]

I think operator error should count.In this match a malfunction will be a malfunction. It will be classified as to type but that's about the extent of it. No excuses...

[Double Naught Spy]

Exactly. The reason for that is to squelch some of the more bizarre claims folks make, like "My gun has never malfunctioned, but I have had bad ammo, a bad mag spring, bad mag spring follower, bad recoil spring, I limp wristed the gun, but it won't lock back on empty and I have to hand cycle it for a new mag, etc. It sometimes just doesn't run sometimes, because something else has gone wrong."

It may be bad ammo, bad springs, bad mag, bad follower, limp wristing, failure to seat a mag properly, etc., but if you pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang, it has malfunctioned. If the gun doesn't cycle properly and lock back on empty, it has malfunctioned.

[redneck2]

One thing I missed...

what are the requirements for accuracy?? Most of the information posted relates to reliability.

[Littlemac]

Who said anything about accuracy? I didn't see anything about accuracy. When did accuracy count?

What is going on here? :D LM

[redneck2]

Interesting read...

[Double Naught Spy]

One thing I missed...

what are the requirements for accuracy?? Most of the information posted relates to reliability.

Yes, you missed something, many somethings. The whole premise of the match pertained to reliability. I think there was the unwritten assumption that of the Glocks and 1911s in the match, they all could be shot with sufficient combat accuracy. We certainly did not anticipate people bringing wildly inaccurate guns to the match.

The premise of the original Glock vs. 1911 matches pertained to the whole rivalry between owners as to which platform was more reliable. This premise has remained as the basis of the matches. My match in April will simply expand this to include more platforms.

[mnw42]

My Remington 870TB has had over 250,000 through it. The guy a bought it off of shot a lot of trap ans those numbers are not unusual. To my knowledge it has never had a failure. Trap shooters can shoot a tremendous volume of ammo in a year. If you look through the ATA records you will find a few people who shoot over 1 million rounds a year!

I used to pull/score at a trap range and we had a few guys who would shoot 500+ birds a day. I've scored George Griggs more than a few times and he would shoot over 1000 birds a day if time permitted and he has been using the same gun for over 30 years.

I will say that volume is relative. One hundred thousand target loads for a pump gun or a break-open shotgun is not all that much.

[Double Naught Spy]

Interesting, but we are dealing with semi-auto pistols, not shotguns.

[Grump]

PATTERNS in operator error can be a clue about fundamental design error on the "human factors engineering" side of life.

I'm a mere observer in this, won't have the free time and am spending all my ammo money next year in other pursuits. Even though I won't be there, I'd like to see other makes such as SIG and H&K added, so long as there are at least three of each. I understand that the number of shooters would go up and the logistics can get more crowded, but good planning and execution should make it work OK.

All this reminds me of a range report I posted a few years ago--a day out in the desert and guess which guns did NOT jam? The S&W "Smegma" and some other cheap gun! I gotta search and see if that was posted here or on the old TFL site. I don't remember many details except the total lockup of the AR-15 from a live round getting jammed up against the gas tube. Total design defect there, and not much that can be done about it because of the size of the casehead and the clearances between the charging handle, gas tube, bolt head, and bolt carrier gas intake.

I was met with disbelief and criticism for just reporting actual events.

[Jimmy Newman]

On the subject of other makes: while I have never specifically set out to do a competition like this, I did shoot about 1000 rounds with no cleaning through my Sig P220ST over two days a few years ago during a training course.

The gun passed, but I didn't - I failed to seat the magazine once. That was the only malf.

I suppose it's oranges to tangerines, since it was over two days and not one afternoon :).

[jomi]

Pistol Model Factory # of rounds Cause for Failure
or Reloads
Glock 21 R 2 Slide lock with mag
Glock 17 R 2 Failure to Feed
Kimber Tac II F 6 Double Feed
Wilson 1911 F 7 Failure to Lock Back
Colt 1911 F 8 Failure to feed
Glock 22 F 8 Stove Pipe
Glock 17 R 8 Mag failure to lock in
Glock 35 R 49 Failure to Feed
10-8 NY 1911 F 279 Failure to Feed
Glock 17 F 344 No Slide lock on Empty
Glock 21 F 977 Failure to Lock Back
Glock 17 F 980 Sight off
Colt 1911 F 1008 Finished course of Fire
Glock 17 R 1073 Finished course of Fire
Glock 17L R 1167 Bad Primer

This is the first attempt at a summary. There were different scribes and different notations, and different note taking styles, so please keep in mind this is subject to correction.

Interesting Huh. LM

Typed in the block it looks good but the preview sucks

Why did the GLOCK 17L not finish when it even had 1167 rounds fired? I'm confused

[Double Naught Spy]

The shooter did not complete the course of fire before his gun malfunctioned. The COF was set up so that it required probably around 900-950 target hits with an expected 5-10% miss rate to push the shooter's total to 1000 or more. Note the Colt with 1008 rounds. He was a better shooter.

Something to keep in mind is that match was designed with the idea of determining a singular winner. The winner would be the person go got the furthest in the match's COF before failure if all guns failed before the end of the COF. If more than one gun completed the COF, the one with the lowest round count was determined to be the winner. By doing the match in that manner, it makes it a bit more competitive. This is compared to the match I will host in April 2008 where the COF is just 1000 rounds and the goal isn't to find a winner, but to document how various guns perform over that 1000 rounds. There will be less of a competitive thrill in the match, I am afraid, save for bragging rights and good-natured ribbing.

[Harley Quinn]

Pilot error I am reminded of it constantly. I watch folks shoot and see it all the time.

Put the gun in a vice and shoot it with a mechanical aparatus.

That is a test of the firearm, not this thread.:rolleyes:

[Howard Roark]

3 million round DHS test:
The technical evaluation of the proposals included a comprehensive handgun test protocol involving a rigorous battery of environmental, reliability, durability, and other tests. Approximately three million rounds of ammunition were fired through 690 handguns of 46 different models during the testing, which took almost four months to complete. Aside from the actual live firing, additional testing was conducted through laboratory analysis and armory inspections. In all, each model was evaluated against more than 50 characteristics before arriving at a technical rating. This data was used in conjunction with past performance and pricing information to select the winning contractors.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=779
http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/press_release_0493.shtm

Each pistol had over 4000 rounds fired through it. Each manufacturer had several models submitted for testing. Glock failed to complete the tests.
Sig and H&K ruled.

These tests were performed by professional gunsmith/shooters under strict enviromental conditions.

[Harley Quinn]

That test was done over 3 years ago. I have bought 2 Glocks since then.
None of the others. Some firearms fit some of us and work very well.
That is about all I can say.

Maybe the fix was in:neener:

;)

[Double Naught Spy]

Put the gun in a vice and shoot it with a mechanical aparatus.

That is a test of the firearm, not this thread.

Right, the thread isn't testing anything at all. It is a discussion.

Shooting via mechanical apparati provides you with a theoretical data about how guns perform in mechanical apparati, a simulation, if you will. The next issue is one of how well the gun will perform in the hands of real people. In other words, mechanical apparati take much of the human factor out of the testing which is interesting because most guns were not designed or intended to be fired from mechanical apparati, but by people. Both methods of firing provide information about the guns, but each has its own shortcomings and biases as well.

PATTERNS in operator error can be a clue about fundamental design error on the "human factors engineering" side of life.

Right. In fact, this is part of the reason that the field of ergonomics has come about. Folks were working with tools that mechanically were capable of doing the job but were not user friendly, resulting in fatigued users who could not then complete jobs at a rate comparable to the tools being used, not complete them consistently satisfactorily, etc.

I'm a mere observer in this, won't have the free time and am spending all my ammo money next year in other pursuits. Even though I won't be there, I'd like to see other makes such as SIG and H&K added, so long as there are at least three of each. I understand that the number of shooters would go up and the logistics can get more crowded, but good planning and execution should make it work OK.

While what you say is true, you haven't ever run a match have you? I take it from your post, that because of a design defect in having an overly long thread has resulted in you missing some of the previous information. Just how do you propose that I get the sample sizes you wanted (3 of each make, but oddly not of each model)? Keep in mind that participants come to these matches at their own expense, on inclination, and only if the match date matches their personal schedules.

[Littlemac]

DNS Have you filled your roster? LM

[softmentor]

stink I wish you weren't so far away. I'd love to let you see an HK USP 45 go the distance flawlessly. ::smiles his jolly smile:: not to mention just all that fun, blasting with a bunch of other folks, going at targets fast and furious. Bang!
Gotta try one of these in SoCal-AZ-SoNev area.
Loads of fun!

I know, I know ... run you're own then. and You're excused :)

[Double Naught Spy]

DNS Have you filled your roster? LM

Nope. Based on your matches and the number of folks who say they will come, number that confirm they are coming, and then the number that actually arrived, then there are still several spots open. I expect several folks to drop and some to add between now and the match.

[rdhood]

It has been a great thread. It is the most posted Competition thread so far at THR and in the top 10 for views of a Competition thread. Now if we can just have that much actual interest at the match...

I agree. I am new to semi-auto pistols (8 months). After reading on the net how everybody else, everywhere else, with every kind of gun shoots all day long without a single mishap, I was a bit disappointed that I couldn't seem to get through 100 rounds without some kind of mishap (failure to feed, failure to fire, dropped mag, etc).

This one has been a real eye-opener about what it takes to make a gun go bang every single time, how very few people can truly make that happen, and how everyone else (most everyone, actually) just lies about it.

edit: maybe "lies" is too harsh a word. How about "ignores the truth", or "deceives themselves"?

[akanotken]

DNS, I'd be interested, and I travel to Texas pretty routinely on business (Austin, but I could drive ... :) In fact I drove to tulsa one trip to catch a football game but that's another story). Way to early for me to commit. In fact, I'm going to see if there's interest in doing a similar match here in VA ...

I do have a browning HP and a p99 that never fail ... :neener:

I do have one humble suggestion. Keep score, and make that score the time + misses (like IDPA does) for simplicity. Don't care about the actual value of the misses, only that they count. A little stress is needed to see how the gun/shooter combo will perform in a bad situation. And valuing the hits will keep the shooter focuse on his target. It's not real life, but the buzzer goes off and people watch and score and it makes some get nervous and other's brains turn off (me :) ). I know it makes for a long day, but I do have suggestions on how to move that along.....

oh yea, suggestion #2 ... invest in an uplula or two for this match .... :)

good things run in 3's? Suggestion number 3. I'd suggest keeping the .22's in a seperate match. They aren't really the focus of what you are trying to do, they runs dirtier than mud, and are notorius for failing to ignite. Likely more trouble than it's worth.

[Richard.Howe]

The way I see it, the Glocks were the first losers. Call a spade a spade. 1/3 of the Glocks failed to fire 10 rounds.


My take away is that, if you have a Glock, shoot the heck out of it. If there are problems, they'll show up early. If they don't, you'll probably have a low-maintenance, high-reliability sidearm for years to come.

[NASCAR_MAN]

Glock 21 R 2 Slide lock with mag
Glock 17 R 2 Failure to Feed
Kimber Tac II F 6 Double Feed
Colt 1911 F 8 Failure to feed
Glock 22 F 8 Stove Pipe
Glock 17 R 8 Mag failure to lock in
Glock 35 R 49 Failure to Feed
Glock 17 F 980 Sight off

These are the failures that bother me for they bring into question the ability of these pistols to be used for self-defense. Amazing that so many guns just were so inadequate for the self-defense purpose.

NASCAR_MAN

[AndyC]

Waiting for the feds to work my appeal for my 1911 - NICS said that I haven't lived in TX for the required 90 days (as if 2 1/2 years living here fulltime is somehow less than 90 days!) :rolleyes:

[chieftain]

I agree. I am new to semi-auto pistols (8 months). After reading on the net how everybody else, everywhere else, with every kind of gun shoots all day long without a single mishap, I was a bit disappointed that I couldn't seem to get through 100 rounds without some kind of mishap (failure to feed, failure to fire, dropped mag, etc).

This one has been a real eye-opener about what it takes to make a gun go bang every single time, how very few people can truly make that happen, and how everyone else (most everyone, actually) just lies about it.

edit: maybe "lies" is too harsh a word. How about "ignores the truth", or "deceives themselves"?

Think of it like folks talking about their Gas Mileage. It ain't exactly a lie, but we tend to ignore the facts.

Keeping a weapon running over a long number of rounds is not done by folks who don't clean and maintain their weapons religiously. That by the way is the majority of shooters. Very few of us are religious about cleaning and maintenance. This is not about keeping a gun looking pretty either.

For instance. I doubt any revolver would last a1000 round course of fire without cleaning. But most any quality revolver is more reliable when cleaned for defense purposes than most semi Auto's.

But many folks like to brag about the reliability of their weapons. You will note, that as we get closer to the shoot more folks will want more caveat's to the shoot. In almost every case they are trying to justify the inability of their chosen platform to make the 1000 rounds.

This is fun. It is informative, and could be useful. But only for those that take from it what is actually said. Not what they will rationalize the results to their own satisfaction to mean.

Real history, is not as kind to many advertising campaigns that many folks base their reason to buy those products on.

For the record. I believe the two most 'proved' weapons in this are the Glock 17 and the Colt 1911A1. Some copies of the 1911 and varients, but not many, not even the high end customs.

I believe two other pistols have "proved" themselves in 'real life' around the world but are rarely tested or questioned. P35 Hipower and the SIG 226. I am thinking of running one of them in this contest. The CZ 75 might fit in here but we in the West haven't really been running them inmasse long enough to get the necessary input.

Go figure.

Fred

[danthegunman]

I can't weld on a Glock...LOL
Semper Fi Dan
John14:6

[Grump]

I posted a while back:

I'm a mere observer in this, won't have the free time and am spending all my ammo money next year in other pursuits. Even though I won't be there, I'd like to see other makes such as SIG and H&K added, so long as there are at least three of each. I understand that the number of shooters would go up and the logistics can get more crowded, but good planning and execution should make it work OK.

And our good host replied:

While what you say is true, you haven't ever run a match have you? I take it from your post, that because of a design defect in having an overly long thread has resulted in you missing some of the previous information. Just how do you propose that I get the sample sizes you wanted (3 of each make, but oddly not of each model)? Keep in mind that participants come to these matches at their own expense, on inclination, and only if the match date matches their personal schedules.

Gosh, Wally, I've only run about two dozen, introducing IPSC/IDPA-type shooting to my then-local club about 1988 or so, some conventional Highpower Rifle events, and even running two small startup commercial bowling pin matches that got the ball rolling for the local pawn shop/indoor range outfit.

Since I'm not seeing any restrictions on Glock models or limiting the 1911s to only full-size, single-stack units, it would seem fairly simple to reserve six slots each year to a pair of other makes, like the H&K/SIG participation some posters have expressed interest in (generally calling for one or the other). You *could* go for specific types such as only USPs one year and their current P series another year. SIG seems to be divided only into its P series and their more CCW-type 230s, with the newer ones just having revised trigger groups.

Anyway, just announce each year's added two make/models with cancel/refund rights if you don't get at least 3 apiece. They only complication I see is having more shooters and putting two more rows in your datasheet.

Good use of staffing, supervision, and relays can keep the rounds going downrange almost all the time. You ARE using at least two shooting bays, I hope?

[AndyC]

Update - got my RIA 1911 tactical - might make it to the event after all ;)

[Double Naught Spy]

Grump, you are funny. Proper staff and supervision? You may have those options at a commercial range, but this ain't one of those. If you want to offer your services and be part of my staff to be supervised, come on out. Or maybe you can provide me with the necessary staff?

I am still interested in how you propose to get the necessary sample sizes from volunteer shooters. You still haven't read the thread, have you? The match in April is open to other platforms. No need to reserve any slots for any platform. Out of 20 respondees, I don't have any one platform/model duplicated more than once.

[SuperNaut]

Great thread, and idea. I definitely want to get something like this going locally.

1K Run Whatcha Brung.

[SA Friday]

[quote] Glock 21 R 2 Slide lock with mag
Glock 17 R 2 Failure to Feed
Kimber Tac II F 6 Double Feed
Colt 1911 F 8 Failure to feed
Glock 22 F 8 Stove Pipe
Glock 17 R 8 Mag failure to lock in
Glock 35 R 49 Failure to Feed
Glock 17 F 980 Sight off

These are the failures that bother me for they bring into question the ability of these pistols to be used for self-defense. Amazing that so many guns just were so inadequate for the self-defense purpose. [quote]

Come on, easily half or more of these could be the result of the shooter and not the gun. The only one that bothers me is going to a shooting match of any type with the sights off??? but even that could have been the shooter. I shoot both Glocks and 1911/2011 models in USPSA, thousands of rounds a year, and they are all more reliable than this. I may have missed this info (I skipped like 7 pages of stuff, but are these just people off the street, pleasure shooters, competition hardened, LE, or what? This could only show a lack of training, really.)

[jlficken]

Thanks for the info. It is very hard to compare any guns that aren't in their stock form. I got new barrels for my Glock's because I reload and want to be easier on my brass (especially the .40). That said my carry G23 is using an aftermarket barrel but it has had hundreds of rounds through it and is flawless with factory ammo. With reloads if I do my part it functions just as well. I also have a Kimber Ultra CDP II that has been flawless with factory ammo as well. When making changes to the gun it is very easy to mess up a good thing and destroy reliability. Trying to do the competition with factory ammo would be fun if you could find someone to sponsor it but it will always be an apple to oranges comparision since 1911's are manufactured by so many companies and in so many variations and price ranges.

[Hoser]

I shoot both Glocks and 1911/2011 models in USPSA, thousands of rounds a year, and they are all more reliable than this.

But everyone knows IPSC shooters shoot watered down ammo and use raceguns with scopes and muzzle breaks. That and have horrible tactics.

If they were to use real guns with real world ammo, they would be in for a rude awakening.

Smile Sean, I still love you.

[AndyC]

The only one that bothers me is going to a shooting match of any type with the sights off???
I think what it means is that the sight fell off at around the 980th shot - not that the shooter just arrived at the match with no sight. Most of the others strike me as magazine-related.

[chieftain]

If they were to use real guns with real world ammo, they would be in for a rude awakening.

I think you would be in for a rude awakening to discover most USPSA/IPSC shooters DO SHOOT THEIR REAL WORLD GUNS VERY WELL TOO.

Sheesh.

Go figure.

Fred

[Rinspeed]

I was thinking the exact same thing.

[Hoser]

I was just giving SA Friday a hard time. We shoot together often. At least we did when he was stationed here.

Dont believe me? Look up USPSA # L-2598

[Geo.Az]

I am not an expert. I do not do matches. I am bias - 1911s and I smoke randall 45 lites. what more can I say of any value. ( just a statement )

[XDKingslayer]

I think this is a pretty cool match. I'd love to attend one with my XD just to see how it does.

All you guys saying your pistols are more reliable than these onse, I'd LOVE to see you step up to the plate. You all say your pistols are more reliable, but I'm sorry, shooting 100 rounds at the range, going home and cleaning it, IS NOT TORTURE.