9mm SD Ammo - 4" Barrel - Which would you buy?


PDA






dust_101
October 20, 2007, 11:17 AM
Ok, here's the 3 choices:

Remington Golden Saber -
9mm JHP 124gr - GS9MMB
9mm JHP 147gr - GS9MMC
9mm +p JHP 124gr - GS9MMD

All of these would be leaving from a XD9 Service Model with a 4" barrel, 10 round magazine.

If you had to choose only ONE of those 3 for carry 365 which would you choose and why?

I'm personally having problems deciding between the weights, the +p or standard, and just which one has a proven record of performance vs the others.

Thoughts?

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm SD Ammo - 4" Barrel - Which would you buy?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
hceptj
October 20, 2007, 12:39 PM
I'd base my choice on what my weapon fed the best...personally I use the 147 gr gs round in my sig 239 when i carry it...

Lonestar49
October 20, 2007, 12:44 PM
...

Personally, in both my 9mm's, I stay as close to what I practice with, in weight and recoil, at the range with 115gr FMJ

Remember, shot placement is the key and that will entail follow-up shots most likely, getting the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, shot back on target asap..

IMHO,

9mm JHP 124gr - GS9MMB


LS

RyanM
October 20, 2007, 12:56 PM
I'd go 147 gr, without a doubt. More consistent overall performance, less likely to plug or pre-expand on hitting heavy clothing (and it's almost winter, at least in the northern hemisphere), less felt recoil.

They also penetrate quite a bit deeper than the lighter rounds, which is a good thing. 14.5" in the brassfetcher.com tests. Should be enough to reach vitals from most angles, if you do your part. But at the same time, the "holdback" effect of the skin is enough to keep it from exiting, on a front to back torso shot.

I've been starting to think that 15" penetration is just about optimum, while 12" is the minimum.

shadowalker
October 20, 2007, 02:12 PM
I'd go with the 124 grain +p, the 147 has much lower velocity and IMHO is heavy for a 9mm, in that weight range I'd prefer a 40 S&W with 155 grain bullet as it delivers 200 fps more velocity, 167 ft/lb more energy and 26% more momentum.

Assuming they deliver the claimed velocity the 124 +p and the 147 standard pressure are about equal on momentum but the 124 +p has much higher velocity and may be more likely to expand.

The 124 grain standard pressure is:

Velocity: 1125 fps
Energy: 349 ft/lb
Momentum: 19.9

124 +p

Velocity: 1180
Energy: 384
Momentum: 20.9

147 Grain

Velocity: 990
Energy: 320 ft/lb
Momentum: 20.79

40 S&W 155

Velocity: 1190
Energy: 487 ft/lb
Momentum: 26.35

hexidismal
October 20, 2007, 02:24 PM
Well.. I might get flamed for this.. but whatever. My vote is for none of the above. I don't like the otherwise ever popular remington golden sabers. I don't have much experience with them in 9mm ( but I do have a little ) , but in .45 auto the golden sabers are the only SD ammo I've experimented with that my guns will choke on. It has something to do with the way the jacket has those curves over the hollow point, that gets caught up on feed ramps. As you know dust, I don't carry a 9mm for SD in favor of a .45 or .357. If I did though, from what I've seen I'd go with an offering from DoubleTap in the +p 124 or even the +p 147 gr. Barring that, maybe something from corbon, or winchester sxt.

Dallas Jack
October 20, 2007, 02:41 PM
I use Golder Sabers in all my CCW guns. In my 9mm I use GS9MMD. They feed and shoot fine in my PT11.
Dallas Jack

.357 magnum
October 20, 2007, 03:15 PM
The 9mm is meant to shoot 124gr. I have two 9mm's a SW-MP and a Taurus 24/7. I shoot my .45's and .40's the most. So I go into shock when I shoot the 9mm, over the lack of recoil and muzzle flip. It is nice.:) I have found the Remington Golden Saber 124gr +p to be excellent ammo. It also has an excellent reputation as a stopper. Now I practice with 115gr because that is what is available. But I have found the 124gr shoots almost exactly the same for POI and POA. The difference is insignificant. Penetration and expansion are both very good for 124gr.

The Best to You and Yours!

Frank

Halo is for Kids
October 20, 2007, 04:34 PM
For Self Defense:

Best actual field performance per Ayoob in Combat Handgunnery 5th Ed.

Here's a link to the new edition:
http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Boo...2678628&sr=8-1

-115grn +P+ Speer Gold Dots at around 1300 fps.
-124grn +P Speer Gold Dots at around 1250 fps.
-For lower recoil, 115 Federal Classic 9BP at 1150fps.
-147grn is a poor choice due to over penetration and failed expansion(according to real world results).

All of the above is what I understood from reading Chapter 7, pages 101 & 102. My only real world experience in testing ammo is to verify reliable function in my guns.

which one has a proven record of performance vs the others.

In the text of CH 5th ED it is explained that the 147grn was dropped by the PDs using it due to lack of real world performance. Granted, there have been improvements in bullet construction since then; However, the PDs are not going to go back to 147grn ammo just to provide real world shooting results.

I prefer actual street performance to lab tests. With no chance at future real world testing of the 147 grn I'm satisfied with the results of 115 +P+ or 124 +P loadings.

I do not imply that the current loadings of 147 grn are inferior, I just like that 115 and 124 have been "proven" adequate.

See also this thread:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=309994

My choices for SD:
-In my older 9mm I have +P 124grn Hydra Shocks because I know they feed.
-In my newer 9mm I have +P 124grn Rangers and +P+ 127grn Rangers; Again, because I know they feed.

strat81
October 20, 2007, 04:43 PM
I use standard 124gr Golden Sabers since they were on sale (yes, I'm frugal). Plus, I can purchase GS bullets and load them to approximately the same velocity as the factory rounds, which lets me test reliability.

GunNut
October 20, 2007, 05:24 PM
Per Tactical Forums:

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

So it looks like you should go with the 147gr Golden Saber if that is the bullet you want to use.

Halo is for Kids
October 20, 2007, 07:10 PM
From here?

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964

This apears to be the source for the data:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Halo is for Kids
October 20, 2007, 07:18 PM
This apears to be the source for the data:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Correction:
-Upon further review the document does not appear to be the source for the data, just a supplement.

What is the data source for the recommendations provided? I was unable to see anything here but unsupported suggestions on a web forum.

RyanM
October 20, 2007, 07:29 PM
The source is Dr. Roberts' own gelatin testing. Most of the results are in the tacforums terminal ballistics forum, but you have to search for them. Some of the forum members get annoyed if you ask for reposts of old tests, and yell at you to use the search function. I really wish they'd make a consolidated gelatin data thread.

GunNut
October 20, 2007, 07:32 PM
From here?

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...;f=78;t=000964

Yes, the operator of that forum does actual testing for LE Agencies. These are recommendations based on testing that they have done.

dust_101
October 20, 2007, 07:45 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions folks, I have to ask one thing though...

If you are in a situation where you would need to draw/fire, how much of a difference would it make if you had the 124 vs 147 vs 124 +p?? I mean, when someone is hit by a round, are we talking a considerable difference here or they are hit by a HP round one way or another and the 23grain difference may not make that huge of an impact?

Keep in mind this is all looking at the 9mm round, I will be moving to .45acp once my officers sized 1911 is fully built and tested.

possum
October 20, 2007, 08:14 PM
i say that you get the one that feeds 100% reliably that is key number 1 then the one that is most controlabe and shootable, and then accurate.

Halo is for Kids
October 20, 2007, 08:48 PM
Quote:
From here?

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...;f=78;t=000964

Yes, the operator of that forum does actual testing for LE Agencies. These are recommendations based on testing that they have done.

Looks like I have another forum to add to my favorites list. I particularly like the thread on Le Mas ammo. The hype made it out to be the best thing since smokeless powder...http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001189

shadowalker
October 20, 2007, 09:08 PM
The bullets are all the same diameter so the big thing is getting enough penetration, the +p can yield more penetration but there is a point of diminishing returns where you get a LOT more recoil for a little performance.

There is a curve where you get the maximum performance, if you calculate the energy and momentum for a set of bullets you will see a point where you get maximum momentum, after which even though the bullet weight is getting heavier the momentum is dropping, that is because the velocity is dropping faster than the extra weight can make up the difference.

Momentum can be a better predictor of penetration than energy, googling terminal ballistics and momentum yields some good information.

In this case after 124 grains 9mm starts losing momentum and energy, you can calculate energy by

((Velocity * Velocity) * bullet-weight) / 450400

You can calculate momentum by doing

(bullet-weight / 7000) * velocity

Try shooting some 124 grain +p ammo and checking the recoil, I'd avoid +p+ as it will put more wear on your firearm, isn't a standard and is pushing the 9mm more into the 357 Sig territory.

Rounds with heavier bullets tend to recoil more than lighter ones but slow, heavy ones may seem to recoil less than snappier lighter ones, people also have different sensitivities to recoil, try some and see what functions reliably and what you can deploy quickly and accurately.

RyanM
October 20, 2007, 09:31 PM
If you are in a situation where you would need to draw/fire, how much of a difference would it make if you had the 124 vs 147 vs 124 +p?? I mean, when someone is hit by a round, are we talking a considerable difference here or they are hit by a HP round one way or another and the 23grain difference may not make that huge of an impact?

Depends on where you hit. 147 gr bullets are superior at penetrating deep, even after encountering an arm or heavy clothing. For instance:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm147grGoldenSaber.html

147 gr GS penetrated 14.5", very consistently.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/124%20grain%20+P%20Remington%20Golden%20Saber.html

124 gr +P GS penetrated 12.0" to 13.3", average 12.6". But it expanded a bit larger. Note, however, that despite being a "+P" round, they only went 1100 fps from a 4" barrel.

That's actually a good thing, though, as Golden Sabers are a design which performs better at medium-low velocities than high velocities. At too high a speed, the lead core mushrooms out past the jacketing petals (which are usually smashed almost flat against the side of the bullet, at very high velocities), negating the advantage to using Golden Sabers. 1050 to 1100 fps is about the optimum range for 124 gr ammo, and 950-990 for the 147 gr.

So you basically trade off hole diameter for hole depth. You should prioritize depth over diameter, to a certain point. Hole diameter is practically academic. A 9mm FMJ in the heart and you'll bleed to death in 12 seconds instead of 10 for a .45 JHP. Penetration, however, determines what you hit. It's quite possible to line up a shot perfectly, and fail to hit a vital organ simply because the ammunition failed to penetrate deep enough.

The generally accepted minimum penetration is 12", which both weights meet. However, according to MacPherson, the optimum penetration range is 13" to 15", and personally, I'm really starting to think he underestimated the effect of 3 layers of skin, on a shot that's obstructed by an arm (the main reason for the 12" minimum); 14"-16" optimum may be more appropriate, in case you have to shoot someone that's a little more muscular than average.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm

Even that test, with no skin simulant, shows how an arm and a rib can seriously impact bullet performance. A .45 ACP round, which normally penetrates 13"-14" in bare gel, penetrated only 4.5" into the "torso" block after encountering an "arm." That is definitely not adequate penetration.

glockman19
October 20, 2007, 10:28 PM
I'm using the speer Gold Dots and Federal Hydra Shoks in 124 grain for SD/HD.

Raspu10
October 20, 2007, 10:32 PM
Best standard pressures

Federal 115gr JHP, Federal 124gr Hydra shok, winchester 115gr jhp...


147gr is crap

stormyone
October 21, 2007, 03:10 AM
9mm JHP 147gr

moph759fl
October 21, 2007, 06:26 AM
For 9MM conceal carry I load Speer Lawman 147 Gr.(Gold Dot HP).

Anything else, range etc., anything on sale.

gudel
October 21, 2007, 03:01 PM
I use 9mm +p JHP 124gr - GS9MMD in my HK USP 9.

gudel
October 21, 2007, 03:03 PM
:rolleyes:forum problem, double post.

dust_101
October 21, 2007, 04:42 PM
So alot of this really boils down to folks who are pro-147gr and against-147gr...

Is that mostly just based off internet discussions of 147gr possibly jamming on some pistols?

grimjaw
October 21, 2007, 04:53 PM
I use 147gr standard pressure in shorter barrels (3"-3.5"). That's my non-scientific approach to getting better penetration. Then it's either Gold Dots or Golden Saber.

I use 124gr +P Golden Saber or Gold Dots in a 4" Glock 19.

jm

hotpig
October 21, 2007, 04:56 PM
None a really that much better than the others. Shoot the one that you like the most.

Halo is for Kids
October 21, 2007, 05:07 PM
Is that mostly just based off internet discussions of 147gr possibly jamming on some pistols?

No.

1557
October 21, 2007, 05:09 PM
In chronographing and wet pack testing eight different 9mm loads from a G26 and a G19 here are the results of the 147gr. Golden Sabre:



G19:

Avg.Vel:1028fps/High 1044fps/ Pene:13 1/2 in. Expan:.62

G26:

Avg.vel: 1010fps/High 1028fps./ Pene: 13 in./Expan:.59

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm SD Ammo - 4" Barrel - Which would you buy?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!