What's wrong w/Cross-Draw?


PDA






MinnMooney
October 20, 2007, 03:26 PM
I keep hearing that police departments and training "camps" either highly discourage or ban cross-draw holsters. Some training facilities won't even let you take the class if you insist on wearing your weapon x-draw!

For what reason?
Speed? : Getting that 1st shot on target is exponentially more important & speed is a situational/individual factor. (See the next few paragraphs.)
Longer vertical target while raising the gun from stong side vs less horizontal target while swinging the gun from a x-draw? : This is only the case if your target shooting or shooting at someone in the ol' West style... a duel. Most real life, documented, "caught-on-video" scenarios are while one or both shooters are running for cover & shooting 1-handed.
Concealment? : CrossDraw is as concealable or more so depending on your build.
Accessability? : CrossDraw has a huge advantage while in your car, in a booth at a restaurant, on a couch watching TV or any other place where your elbow has a backward movement obstacle.
A huge group of us are baby-boomers and sometimes our shoulder mobility isn't as fantastic as it once was. "Strong-side" draw is difficult at best due to trying to swivel and twist our shoulder joint in ways that it protests - a lot, sometimes!
Easier for the BG to snatch it from the x-draw position? : I can hold onto my x-draw position weapon much more securely and it's definately not as suseptable (sp?) to anyone approaching from the rear because - in most cases - it's canted more forward that most stong-side holsters. Not only that but while holding onto my weapon with my left hand/arm I'm free to hit or defend from the attack of the BG. I can hit MUCH better with my strong side/right arm.


O.K. - I've had my say now let's hear some rebuttal..... but before you do, maybe you'd want to read this artical that I found that probably says better how I feel than I am probably doing.

http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0101.html

If you enjoyed reading about "What's wrong w/Cross-Draw?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
jefnvk
October 20, 2007, 03:53 PM
The big point I've heard, is that you got your gun pointed at a lot more that you don't want to shoot while drawing than the strong side carry.

JaxJim
October 20, 2007, 04:21 PM
A cross draw causes the shooter to "sweep" the person to their left or right in a much higher percentage of the time. It also is a less efficient method of draw, requiring more movement and a longer time to bring the firearm to the sight position.

However, I carry cross-draw when hunting. The rifle butt will bang a sidearm carried on the strong side (at least the way I carry a rifle).

Old Fuff
October 20, 2007, 04:30 PM
Actually there isn't anything wrong with crossdraw if you like it, and so long as you keep your finger off of the trigger until the muzzle is pointed down range, it is as safe as any other draw. Ed McGivern proved decades ago that crossdraw can be speedy, and shots thereafter accurately placed.

However a strong-side draw works better with "modern" techniques where the weak-side hand is part of the weapon's draw and presentation.

It's a matter of individual choice. What others think doesn't matter unless you're part of an organization with specific rules.

AndyC
October 20, 2007, 04:31 PM
It's a range safety-issue; same reason they discourage the use of shoulder holsters and small-of-back rigs. Simple as that.

Old Fuff
October 20, 2007, 05:25 PM
It's a range safety-issue; same reason they discourage the use of shoulder holsters and small-of-back rigs. Simple as that.

Yup, that's true sometimes... But its never influenced my choices in gun-carrying methods. I could always find another place to practice.

Crossdraw was very popular prior to, and shortly after, World War Two. I don't remember a whole lot of accidental or unintentional shootings being caused by crossdraw rigs. More often it was some dingbat with a strong-side holster that didn't cover the trigger guard. :what:

RyanM
October 20, 2007, 05:52 PM
If you have very sloppy technique, it is possible to "sweep" the person to your off-hand side, but that's about it. Pretty sure the correct technique is to pull the gun out of the holster, then swing it directly forward (or down and forward, if using a horizontal shoulder holster), while rotating it so that it's not upside-down. That way the gun gets pointed at nothing but the ground and the target, same as a strong side draw.

MinnMooney
October 20, 2007, 05:58 PM
Some interesting points that you-all are making.
I definately see the reasoning AT THE RANGE to not allow cross-draw during rapid practice sessions due to the fact that the pistol can be pointed down & slightly behind the shooter during the draw.

from : Old Fuff Yup, that's true sometimes... But its never influenced my choices in gun-carrying methods. I could always find another place to practice.

That pretty well sums up the safety-at-the-range issue. Thanks, Old Fuff

P.S. What does Old Fuff refer to/mean??

jjminch
October 20, 2007, 06:19 PM
They have their purpose, as do "jack-ass rigs" (shoulder harness). They are harder to deploy especially when the BG is within arms length. If you take any classes on defensive tactics and stuff they strongly discourage cross draw, jack-ass rigs, or mexican carry. Strong side holsters are faster and safer for most.

warriorsociologist
October 20, 2007, 06:26 PM
My quick .02.

As I see it, an "interview stance," as I was taught, puts your week side towards the individual you are facing and your strong side (with sidearm) to the rear. Anything you are holding (ticketbook, flashlight, etc.) is in your weekhand. Should you need to draw your weapon, you have your weekhand to ward off / distance yourself from possible attack and you have your bladed position to your advantage. (While I agree with you that I could hit/ward off someone better with my strong hand...I am MORE concerend with keeping "free" the hand that I can better employ my sidearm while engaged as such (FWIW, I've had plenty of "mat time/retention drills", though long ago now, from which to form my opinion of what I like better). YMMV, of course, but to me a cross draw rig on a RH officer puts either his/her sidearm or his/her strong hand (should you blade the firearm away by reversing your stance) closer to the other individual...and neither is something I'd want. For hunting, I can see good utility for these rigs as they allow you strong side rifle carry without hitting your stock on the holster. That said, I usually weak-side sling my rifle (muzzle down) and carry my hunting rig strongside...moslty, because that's what I'm used to doing/way I was trained.

sm
October 20, 2007, 06:37 PM
Old Fuff's posts #4 and#6 I agree with.

Driving is another consideration for Cross-draw , especially if one spends a lot of time driving.

Some will remove firearm from right/strong side, and use a spare holster while in the vehicle.
The heavy clip-on worked in the old days, these new leather straps that fit over belt work fine.

warriorsociologist
October 20, 2007, 06:45 PM
Come to think of it more now, I do have one cross-draw type rig...though it is a "tanker-style" repro I use on the rare occasion I carry my G20 over one of my wheelguns. Normally, this is only for hunting or backpacking when I'm carrying a large pack w/ waist belt (in my case, my McHale Pack has a wide and thick support belt ... and drop-leg style holsters get "old" to me after many hours of hiking).

Ala Dan
October 20, 2007, 07:59 PM
I worked with a city detective in my old department, who preferred to use
the cross draw method with his old Colt Government Model 1911; carried in
condition 1~! :scrutiny:;)

Mad Magyar
October 20, 2007, 09:30 PM
In the summer, using a small caliber in the strong-side pocket for sure. Other times, it's a shoulder rig, or on the cross-draw....Why? For me, it has to do with my body dynamics, aka."Ying-Yang"... I constantly practice the presentation phase and I'm fast.....:)
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q148/veritas2369/ConcealedColt003-1.jpg

Old Fuff
October 20, 2007, 09:46 PM
What does Old Fuff refer to/mean??

"Old Fuff," sometimes shortened to simply, "Fuff," was a nickname two teens stuck on me. Somehow I was never able to get away from it... :D

Doesn't seem to tactical does it?

FieroCDSP
October 21, 2007, 12:17 AM
"Old Fuff," sometimes shortened to simply, "Fuff," was a nickname two teens stuck on me. Somehow I was never able to get away from it...

Doesn't seem to tactical does it?

Hey...just use it proudly and no one will have the guts to say anything.

"What's your name?"
"Fuff"
"Fuff??!!!?!"
"Just Fuff. :eyes narrow to hard slits: :scrutiny: "

MinnMooney
October 21, 2007, 12:27 AM
Well, as Teddy Roosevelt says, "Walk softly but carry a big stick."

If you were Mr. Macho/Tactical I suppose you could have a handle like

"1911AR-15.50Cal12Ga00BuckU.S.M.C.BuckKnife"


Back on subject : I've tried several very well-made holsters on my strong side but it's the shoulder that screws up any resemblence to a "fast draw". My weak side draw is not only much smoother but way more consistent.
Seems that I'll just have to be very careful at the range and practice when no one is behind or to the left (which is 90% of the time at my range and 99.44% of the time on my 80.
Thanks everyone for your valuable input.

GRB
October 21, 2007, 12:34 AM
Sure looks as if Mad Magyar is about to cover his own left arm when he draws from the cross draw holster, see the pic about 3 or 4 posts up from this one. Reason enough for me not to carry in that manner.

All the best,
Glenn B

196pc
October 21, 2007, 12:55 AM
I do a lot of surveillances (LEO in car). I find the crossdraw very comfortable and easy to get to if needed. I also carry crossdraw when working "undercover" (not plainclothes). I find the gun easier to conceal and carry props (like a newspaper) in my weak hand for additonal concealment. One does need to practice more when carrying in different positions.

MinnMooney
October 21, 2007, 01:08 AM
I think that Mad Magyar is practicing getting ready to push off from the BG or hold him from getting in the way of his draw. It looks pretty smooth and direct to me.

I also like the fact that it's easier to get behind your jacket on the cross draw version. On strong side you have to make a concerted effort to flip the right jacket half out of the way and make sure that it stays out while you're drawing.

.

The Bushmaster
October 21, 2007, 01:26 AM
"Cowboy Action Shooters" are using the cross draw along with strong side rigs. With practice any place you want to put your carry gun is just fine...Just remember the rule that no finger on the trigger until you aquire the target...

DawgFvr
October 21, 2007, 04:52 AM
I considered cross draw...until I read Bill Jordan's No Second Place Winner.

Page 21: "The cross draw holster is an invitation to disaster. Its position is even more convenient to an opponent than to the wearer."

That was all I need to read...nope...not for me.

wcwhitey
October 21, 2007, 11:15 AM
All of those reasons are legit. One thing not mentioned is that with a crossdraw holster your firearm is presented to an opponent. Basically butt forward ready to grab and shoot, the gun is already pointing at you. A strong side weapon is also easier to retain in the holster if it is being grabbed at. It is forbidden to carry cross draw in my department, this is the main reason stated. Holsters are also required to have retention (snap, strap). A speed scabbard is not allowed. Ankle and shoulder holster wear is frowned upon as well, not forbidden, but frowned upon. The question is alway asked before a qualification string if anyone has any unconventional holster, it's brings fear to the hearts of the R/O's if someone grabs for their ankle during live fire. Bill

Sorry DawgFVR beat me to it, lol!

Mad Magyar
October 21, 2007, 11:15 AM
I think that Mad Magyar is practicing getting ready to push off from the BG or hold him from getting in the way of his draw.

Exactly....The off-hand is coming in the halt/fend position. Balance is extremely important...Coming from the strong-side with the arm being cocked for retrieval doesn't do it for me....Since my outwear is never buttoned, the hand slide across your abdomen for the grasp is always on. Strong-side requires that quick jacket flip-back which I don't particularly care for...
BTW, Bill Jordan was a giant in my eyes, of course he was:), but I think he would say "do what best fits your situation, but do it well".
Glenn, looking at it another way in the sweep...The strong-side draw from the "c-n'-l" contributed to more ND's in the military, (foot-toes-thighs) that they cared to admit. M. Ayoob wrote a fascinating acct about military mishaps with the 1911. The point being, regardless of position, yes; mishaps will occur..

Walkalong
October 21, 2007, 04:00 PM
Nothing wrong with it, if you are accomplished at it. :)

win71
October 21, 2007, 04:32 PM
X-draws are somewhat better in a vehicle, especially with a seatbelt/shoulder strap in place. High ride canted seemed to work well. The same rig isn't worth a da## if you get into a wrestling match. Bad guy got one of my x-partners 6" revolver while they were rolling around on the ground. Barrel snagged between shirt buttons and went off. His heart followed the bullet out the center of his back.
Rare occurrence I know but I quit carrying my 6" python in a cross draw. This all happened in the early 70's.
If somebody has the intent to get your weapon and use it against you and he does get his hands on you there is going to be trouble. I'd just as soon not let him grab the weapon and have it instantly in a firing position.

Rexster
October 21, 2007, 06:08 PM
A cross-draw worn forward of the point of the hip is much easier to defend from a grab than one worn on the off-side hip, and if the defender stands in a "Jack Benny" pose while evaluating potential trouble, the hand can be on or near the weapon for a very fast draw. Front crossdraw also works well when seated in a car with deep bucket seats and/or a high seatbelt anchorage located over the on-side hip. I do not use crossdraw for a primary weapon because I carry on the hip in police uniform, for a straight conventional draw, and like to keep such things the same all the time. I will use a crossdraw when on long road trips, for an alternate weapon; ditto for the times I will be seated in a car for long periods while parked, such as on surveillance.

nwilliams
October 21, 2007, 06:29 PM
Cross-draw:barf:

What's wrong w/Cross-Draw?
Everything, don' get me started:rolleyes:

The only time I ever use a cross draw is when I'm seated in my car. I move the gun to my left side always.

My biggest problems with cross draw is that if you carry mag pouches you have to carry them on you're weak side. In a tactical reload with the gun in my right hand I don't want to reach with my left hand to my right side to grab another mag.

Secondly I want to draw from the holster up the center-line of my body, not across my body from the opposite side. I want the muzzle pointed in the direction I want the bullet to go at all times, that way even if I don't have time to bring the gun all the way up to eye level I can still fire from the the hip if need be.

Thirdly if you are attacked physically and some reaches your gun its much easier for them to use it on you. If they have to turn it around it buys you a few moments. I've heard that's why law enforcement prefers not to use cross-draw.

In the end its really up to you how you want to carry. However I've never had a firearms instructor who has condoned using the cross-draw method other than when seated in your car.

Koos Custodiet
October 21, 2007, 06:37 PM
Page 21: "The cross draw holster is an invitation to disaster. Its position is even more convenient to an opponent than to the wearer."

True, but.

1. I'm on a motorcycle. What's the best holster position?

2. I'm in a car. Right hand drive. I'm right handed. What's the best holster position?

Charles S
October 21, 2007, 06:46 PM
Cross draw has both strengths and weaknesses. To me the primary weakness is that the gun is almost perfectly positioned for an assailant that is facing you to draw your gun. The other weakness is that again (as stated) it is rather easy to cross yourself or others in the draw violating a primary gun safety rule.

However, being aware of the limitations there are situations where a Cross draw really shines. For example driving a car and riding an ATV or motorcycle. I also like cross draw when hunting because it does not interfere with my long gun.

BTW Mad Magyar it sure looks like your gun is cocked in the picture....have you already racked the slide or are you carrying in condition 1 or 2? I thought condition 3 was for you????

Mad Magyar
October 21, 2007, 08:01 PM
and if the defender stands in a "Jack Benny" pose while evaluating potential trouble,

That brought a smile to my face. Also thinking about how many of our members haven't a clue to the "eternal 39 yr old"...

I thought condition 3 was for you????

Charles, you have me convinced about 95%...I'm working on Cond. #1..:)
Charles, 3-slot Pancake Holster by Gould & Goodrich with retention strap removed..(I never liked straps....)

bakert
October 22, 2007, 12:06 PM
Some folks just got too much belly to reach the darn gun easily.:D

Charles S
October 22, 2007, 12:54 PM
Charles, you have me convinced about 95%...I'm working on Cond. #1..

LOL....That was funny...

Mayar...One thing I have always appreciated about you is your ability to remain civil (even when faced with a sarcastic SA) and show your rationale and reason behind your decisions. We don't always agree, but I seriously respect that in you.

BTW what holster is that you are using?

MinnMooney
October 24, 2007, 01:28 AM
from nwilliams : I want the muzzle pointed in the direction I want the bullet to go at all times

Just what are you doing putting a bullet into the ground or halfway between yourself and the BG? When I draw in the cross-draw position, my muzzle points just off my left foot and sweeps upward directly toward the BG.... just like I draw on my strong side.


from charles s : To me the primary weakness is that the gun is almost perfectly positioned for an assailant that is facing you to draw your gun.

You must have a sign pointing to your gun saying, I'm carrying & this is where it's at." I really can't fathom HOW an assailant would even guess that I had a gun much less where it was at!?!

Let's not just blurt out something that you've heard from some "expert"... really think for yourself and try to picture a REAL scenario. A BG knowing where and if you carry isn't a very real scenario.

buttrap
October 24, 2007, 01:55 AM
Just takes a bit more practice is all. 4x4 or on one of my horses its nothing but crossdraw as strong side then just about eats my ribs up. After about 30-40 years you kind of get used to it.

Charles S
October 24, 2007, 02:50 AM
You must have a sign pointing to your gun saying, I'm carrying & this is where it's at." I really can't fathom HOW an assailant would even guess that I had a gun much less where it was at!?!

Let's not just blurt out something that you've heard from some "expert"... really think for yourself and try to picture a REAL scenario. A BG knowing where and if you carry isn't a very real scenario.

Oh...well OK if you you say so....Interesting reasoning. If someone cannot see your gun in a cross draw holster then it is not positioned so they can take it away. I am not sure I follow. Is that kind of like if the door is in the back of the house no one will walk in?

BTW....When I carry cross draw it is open carry. Every one can see it....they don't have to guess it is there, but then I guess you would not have thought of that. It is positioned for someone to take the gun away from you.

I am sure you have had a weapons retention class and was taught by a real expert what the strengths and weaknesses of holster are. I have taken a good day long weapons retention course (I highly recommend such a course to all who choose to carry for self defense) and am quite aware of the strengths and weakness of each style of carry. I would recommend you take one also.

MinnMooney
October 24, 2007, 01:13 PM
"Back door?" HUH?!?

BTW....When I carry cross draw it is open carry. Every one can see it.... Well, that is great for you and in that situation, I believe that you are correct - WHEN YOUR GUN CAN BE SEEN. Please read the previous posts and you'll notice that that has been mentioned and agreed with.

In most states, you have to conceal your weapon and it's a crime in some to even accidently expose it to public view. Minnesota is not such a state but I'm not a LEO so I conceal 95% of the time. There are only two places that I carry open 1.) in the woods & 2.) sometimes in my house.

The original post asked "What's wrong with cross-draw carry." Many people have answered very thoughtfully and most acknowledge that "It depends on the individual and the situation". Unfortunately, there are a few who like the always and never words and I discount those to near zero value.

P.S. Charles S - That's great that you took all of those classes. So have I. I just haven't taken those that refuse to let me practice the cross-draw which is the only draw that works for ME. One drill instructor said it was due to the danger of anyone on my left so I asked to be positioned on the left side. That way there would be no one to my left. "Nope, I refuse to let anyone do x-draw in my class!" "If not the safety aspect then why?" "Because I just don't... That's why!" I switched to another class.

Charles S
October 24, 2007, 01:28 PM
P.S. Charles S - That's great that you took all of those classes. So have I.

I am glad you are a gun owner who carries and chooses to educate yourself....So many of us do not.

Then you truly do understand the strengths and weakness of Cross draw....as do I. I find it very useful for certain situations, even though I am aware of it's weaknesses. For me cross draw is a great option when carrying a long gun hunting, or carrying a pack in the woods.

I just haven't taken those that refuse to let me practice the cross-draw which is the only draw that works for ME. One drill instructor said it was due to the danger of anyone on my left so I asked to be positioned on the left side. That way there would be no one to my left. "Nope, I refuse to let anyone do x-draw in my class!" "If not the safety aspect then why?" "Because I just don't... That's why!" I switched to another class.

I really hate that....to me it is ignorant to ignore someones needs and not teach them because their needs are different than yours. I do not choose craw draw for concealed carry, but I certainly understand if it works for you. I think it is a shame when instructors are so close minded. You are obviously aware of the shortcomings and have taken a weapons retention class to deal with that. Again, I respect that!

TallPine
October 24, 2007, 03:23 PM
Cross draw has both strengths and weaknesses. To me the primary weakness is that the gun is almost perfectly positioned for an assailant that is facing you to draw your gun.

Same thing is true with strongside if an assailant is behind you ;)

Gustav
October 24, 2007, 03:35 PM
IMO cross draw works best for hunting while carrying a rifle or shotgun slung over the right shoulder or if you need to carry while driving a cab or truck but for daily walking CCW use it is not a good option.

Why increase the distance and amount of time and movements to access your CCW if you need it you need it fast and can not deflect or use your week hand as well if your strong hand is crossing your chest.
Also for daily CCW unless a secure holster is used a cross draw presents your pistol to an adversary in a way they can easier try to take your pistol from you.

Just my two cents.

Archie
October 24, 2007, 04:34 PM
... is nothing more than current fashion and fad.

For instance, no less an authority than Julian S. Hatcher, Major General, US Army once wrote words to the effect of

"... a holster that does not allow a full grip on the pistol and one's trigger finger on the trigger prior to removal from the holster is unsuitable for self-defense..."

Could you imagine the howling that would cause in 'modern' circles?

Someone cited the late Bill Jordan in a condemnation of cross draw holsters. Is anyone aware Bill Jordan's holster, built to his design and specifications left the trigger guard completely exposed while holstered?

'Modern' experts get the vapours merely seeing such a holster.

(Interestingly, covered trigger guard holsters seem to have about the same level of improper discharges as uncovered trigger guard holsters. The uncovered ones fire on the draw and the covered ones fire on the re-holster - go figure.)

Cross draw and shoulder rigs are both 'out of fashion'. Primarily due to the impression of 'safety' problems while drawing. In fact, drawing from a shoulder rig or cross draw or small of back holster does require a wide sweep of the muzzle across the landscape. However, I have noted in reality, there is no 'safe direction' nor any 'downrange direction'. The confusion of a shooting or near shooting situation tends to blur many details. I'd really like to hear a dissertation on the subject of 'downrange' in - for example - the North Hollywood bank robbery shootout.

Someone mentioned a crossdraw puts the gun closer to the subject. What is not noticed is when using a strong side holster and assuming a 'field interrogation' stance, one's holster and sidearm is now away from the primary suspect, but is now away from one's field of view and concentration. It is now open to anyone behind or to the side. I find having a gun open behind me is less desirable than one in my vision and attention sphere.

There are no single, permanent answers - at least not in the art of self-defense and gunfighting.

MinnMooney
October 24, 2007, 06:27 PM
Re: Archie's post (#41) ...................

You have probably summed up best the way I feel. I'm almost 60 and have seen "the correct methodology" change several times over the years.

The .380 was great as a self defence weapon 'cause it could be with you 99% of the time in your pocket.
The 9mm was the cat's pajamas 'cause the .380 was too diminutive.
The ankle holster was the last word in conceal carry so you can tuck your shirt in.
The .45ACP is the only weapon to have 'cause anything smaller wouldn't stop a 95 lb weakling with the flu.
Now, the end-all of all guns - the 1911 is slowly but sysematically being replaced by new gun buyers with the likes of Glocks, XD-45's, P220's and numerous other defensive weapons. Why? Are they better? No. Are they more accurate? No. I think that it's because these newer style guns just fit some people better or they like the look better or who know's what reason. It all boils down to - "There is no one method, gun or philosophy for evryone.
Get lessons. Get opinions. Try everything that you can. Then make your decision. Use the best of all worlds because it fits YOU, not some expert.

Autolycus
October 24, 2007, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by MinnMooney: In most states, you have to conceal your weapon and it's a crime in some to even accidently expose it to public view. Minnesota is not such a state but I'm not a LEO so I conceal 95% of the time. There are only two places that I carry open 1.) in the woods & 2.) sometimes in my house.

You have a source for the fact about open carry being illegal in the majority of states?

Anyways I dont do it as it is much easier for an assailant to grab your gun. If you like it go ahead and if you do not thats fine to.

I think that the majority of the ranges dont approve of it since you sweep yourself and possibly others when drawing.

Ricebrnr
October 24, 2007, 09:24 PM
From a biomechanics point of view, strong side allows the muzzle to be rotated onto the target sooner and then allows you to punch forward, firing the whole time if absolutely necessary. Shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line right?

Cross draw has a circular drawing motion and the muzzle doesn't come on target until the final moments of your presentation. Not only this but you must practice a bit more to compensate for inertia naturally wanting to continue the sweep.

OF course this pretty much assumes you're stance is generally Weaver or Isocolese and the target is in front of you. Cross draw may work better if your body remains bladed with the weak side presented to the target. This stance theoretically presents less of a target.

Also from my years in martial arts I found that circular strikes are easier to block than straight ones. For the same reason in boxing, you soften the target with jabs because they're faster and then follow with a hook or cross, not the other way around.

In any case nothing works best for everyone ans especially not without practice. My .02

Dustinthewind
October 24, 2007, 10:11 PM
Crossdraw worked for Hickock untill he got shot from behind! Yes, if you are carrying crossdraw your weapon might be more convenient to an adversary in front of you, but isn't the same true when you are carrying strong side and the adversary is behind you? I do carry crossdraw when driving in a pickup or car with a bench seat and find that the weapon is more accessible this way and quicker to bring into action.

Wheeler44
October 25, 2007, 02:47 PM
I am not a cop so I don't do "interrogation stance". If I think I'm going to have to fight someone I naturally turn my left (weak) side towards them.
From that position (think boxers stance) the cross draw presents the muzzle in a direct line to the intended target as soon as it clears the holster. Think Doc Holliday in the final scenes of Tombstone.
This stance also presents a smaller target.
This stance also "protects" the strong side meaning less chance to have to switch hands due to injury.
It works for me.

Mad Magyar
October 25, 2007, 04:12 PM
I am not a cop so I don't do "interrogation stance". If I think I'm going to have to fight someone I naturally turn my left (weak) side towards them.
From that position (think boxers stance) the cross draw presents the muzzle in a direct line to the intended target as soon as it clears the holster. Think Doc Holliday in the final scenes of Tombstone.
This stance also presents a smaller target.
This stance also "protects" the strong side meaning less chance to have to switch hands due to injury.
It works for me.
Wheeler, interesting assessment and stated very well.....I failed to mention in my earlier replies that many carriers to need to assess their holsters for fast retrieval regardless of your mode of carry...:)

Wheeler44
October 25, 2007, 05:35 PM
Mad Magyar says,
Wheeler, interesting assessment.....I failed to mention in my earlier replies that many carriers to need to assess their holsters for fast retrieval regardless of your mode of carry...
Funny, I thought that is what you were demonstrating with your photograph.
Push off or block with the left, deliver a nasty blow with the right.
In that stance the butt of the firearm is no more accessable to an assailant than a traditional strong side carry and it can be protected by either hand or by bending over. I must add that I carry a bit farther forward than most, and certainly no where near my weak side hip.
Another advantage is the proximity to the weak side hand in case a weak side draw is neccessary. A weak side draw is awkward but, no where near as awkward as a weak side draw from a strong side holster.

YMMV

Wheeler44

Freman
October 26, 2007, 01:26 AM
From what I've read an advantage of the butt forward holster is that the weapon is available to either hand either with a cross draw or twist hand draw.

polekitty
October 26, 2007, 11:32 PM
Well, I guess you guys who don't like cross draw also don't like using your seat belts in your car. Ever try to get your sidearm out when belted into your car seat?

Safety? I guess you guys who carry your gun on your "strong side" use a vertical holster, not canted? Ever notice the cant makes your gun point back to your rear as you draw it?

I guess you also never expect to have your "strong arm" injured. Try drawing your weapon with the "weak arm" sometime. Ever look at pictures of Wild Bill Hickok? Notice two guns cross draw? He was no dummy. He could draw either gun with either hand.

polekitty
October 27, 2007, 03:24 AM
Hey, I forgot to mention, you can get a shoulder rig which does not point the gun to the rear. Galco makes one which carries the gun vertical and you do not have to draw it UP to get it out. It's a "front break" design which lets you pull the gun straight out the front, still pointed down at the ground until you're ready to point it at the bad guy in front of you!

Mad Magyar
October 27, 2007, 09:14 AM
It's a "front break" design which lets you pull the gun straight out the front, still pointed down at the ground until you're ready to point it at the bad guy in front of you!
Unfortunately, I'm a visual learner and am trying to envision how you grasp the weapon from the rig with your description? Seriously...:)

halfacop
October 27, 2007, 10:02 AM
You would grasp it in the same manner as a regular vertical carried gun.

Now obvioulsy its mentioned that you can remain pointing the gun towards the ground - however - when hastily drawing from this type of rig your muzzle will begin to point backwords somewhat, as you break the frame from the holster.

This type of rig does considerably reduce the muzzle ever pointing towards the rear during carry and drawing. Keeping in mind though - it is not nearly as secure a rig and would be prone to gun grabs abit easier during a struggle.

wheelgunslinger
October 27, 2007, 10:45 AM
I was hoping someone would bring up Hickock's revolvers.

I like to carry crossdraw since I used to do lots of hiking and work in the woods and got comfy with the way the weapon drew and pointed.
Also, it's easier to keep an eye on the weapon if you open carry in public. Someone has to be in front of you to snag it. Not to mention that you don't have to shuffle the weapon around on your person as you enter and leave a vehicle, or go from car to motorcycle, so you develop a reaction based on it always being in one place.

And, if you have a confrontation with someone, you just have to fold your arms and your strong side hand is inches from your weapon. Not to mention that as you draw, you can turn sideways and present less of a target.

I'm not an Ayoob, Pincus, or Jordan. So, take it with a grain of salt. :scrutiny:

MinnMooney
October 28, 2007, 02:13 PM
Thanks for the tip. I checked out the Galco site but, unfortunately, they don't make it for my Kahr.

wcwhitey
October 28, 2007, 06:49 PM
A couple of posters mentioned that with strong side your gun is just as vulnerable to a grab from behind. This is true, however, much more force can be exerted by your strong side arm in order to keep the gun in the holster. With an XDraw using the strong arm on the opposite side of the body is just weaker having to reach across. If one uses gun side arm with cross draw the butt forward angle leaves you with less to hold on to. JMHO Bill

Geronimo45
October 29, 2007, 02:12 AM
Front-break shoulder rig?
http://www.fist-inc.com/holsters/holster/70.htm
They seem to have the Kahrs as model guns, I'm guessing it's similar to the Galco setup.
Another interesting rig (my current prefence) is this thing:
http://www.klnullholsters.com/NewHolsters/smz.htm
If somebody tries to draw it from behind, proper retention technique is to laugh maniacally and call 911. They will arrive long before the gun is removed. From in front, an arm across the upper chest locks it in place tightly - but just twisting the wrist to snatch the gun away would be difficult in itself. Not a problem for the wearer, though.

I've got no objection to cross-draw - I'd probably use it if:
1) Texas allowed open carry.
2) I could get used to belt carry. I don't like belt carry from a comfort perspective - yes, I've got a good belt. And the belt by itself is pesky to me.

It's my opinion that, unless you use multiple holsters for various parts of your day, you ought to carry in a manner most conducive to a reasonably fast draw in the situations you are most often in. The greater draw speed gained in a strong-side holster means nothing if you have to fight your chair to draw, and you are constantly in your chair throughout the day. Crossdraw would probably work better more of the time in that situation.

How do you spend most of your time when you are carrying? Standing or sitting? Depends on your job and the times that you carry - maybe you can't carry on the job, or maybe you're required to.

Make your own decisions based on your own situation - just make that decision for a reason besides "Mannix did it." :p
Gunwriters - even the best - are speaking from their perspective, not necessarily yours. I don't know how many of 'em slam shoulder rigs in general, those with skinny straps in particular, and especially the skinny-strap models carrying a full-sized gun. And I hear people on this forum and others commenting on how painful they can be. I don't deny their experience - their experience jest ain't mine.

roscoe
October 29, 2007, 03:59 AM
Seems like the rrefect way to carry in a car, especially a smaller car.

Mad Magyar
October 29, 2007, 09:14 AM
the front of the holster has clearance so the gun pivots in the holster so it can be drawn across the body instead of having to lift to draw which eliminates the need for a tie down strap.
Thanks for the visual...Kind of what I thought....Having some experience with my own rigs, all horizontal; and worn slightly high near the arm pit: this wouldn't work for me....The release idea is fine, but a firm first-grasp would require me to have a double-jointed wrist or move it around my hand once or twice...This design facilitates grabbing the pistol with the thumb & forefinger for clearance. This makes little sense, IMHO.....:)
To each their own.....

saltydog452
October 29, 2007, 12:45 PM
Nosir, nothing at all.

For me though, it don't work.

Girth of belly, ( I prefer to think that my arms are too short), precludes convential cross draw while seated..especially when straped in a seat belt/shoulder harness.

Kramer markets a mesh kinda/sorta tee shirt with a 'pocket'...5.11 markets a dual external pocket with a velcro closure for an 'under the pocket... pocket' in a half sleeve, two chest pocket shirt.

I like them both, but for different reasons.

When traveling, my DL, CHL, a credit card, and proof of insurance are cliped together and in a top pocket. When/if pulled over by a State Trooper, they're in my hand, outside of the window. No scurring around looking for proper documents by reaching into glove box for insurance documentation or hip pocket for DL and such.

If being being susceptible to 'car jacking' is a concern, such pockets may be a place for ultra light weight revolvers as well. Try not to shoot your left arm.

You can also avoid convertables, keep the windows powered up, automatic door locks engaged, and don't be afraid to use the accelerator pedal, mixing body paint, and evasive driving.

I kinda got off the original thread subject, but for me, the advantage for cross draw/under arm carry is while being seated, especially driving and strapped in by restraints.

Or diahrrea.

The Birami Hip-Grip is another option.

Respectfully,

salty.



.

Dr.Rob
October 29, 2007, 08:27 PM
Good way to carry a large sidearm in the field, away from a slung rifle, or on horseback. I use cross draw (and flapped) holsters for 'woods' carry.

Cross draw is mostly a range safety issue, I think it's fine for a 'secondary' arm, or a large scoped handgun. Think strong side makes more sense for concealment, but for open carry I'm almost always crossdraw. Easier in a car or on horseback.

FIRE COP
October 30, 2007, 12:23 AM
many police are shot by their own weapons...from a weapon retention standpoint...the carrying of your weapon on your strongside hip allows one to protect the weapon ...cross draw merely presents the butt of the weapon directly..and easily accesible to someone across from you...

Tequila jake
October 30, 2007, 02:11 AM
Like Geronimo45, I live in Texas where open carry is not allowed, so there are not many situations where I could carry cross-draw. Of course, it might work under a jacket, but it's so hot here most of the time that I wear a jacket less than six months out of the year. And even then, I usually take it off when I'm indoors. For me, seated in a car would probably be about the only time that I could carry cross-draw.

Tequila Jake

1man
October 30, 2007, 05:05 PM
I use the crossdraw method when I use my S&W 640 as a secondary carried on the waist. I also employ the use of a shoulder holster for my larger guns(USP45T & Sig P229S). I only use the crossdraw method when I have to use my weak-hand.

Rexster
October 30, 2007, 10:04 PM
A crossdraw worn at a raked angle, FORWARD of the hip bone, will be easier to defend against a frontal grab attempt than many duty holsters worn on the strong side hip, especially if both persons involved have the same-side dominant hands. Think about the angles for a moment! The only holster location easier to defend is the "appendix" position, forward of the dominant-side hip.

sinistr
October 31, 2007, 01:29 AM
cross draw can be useful also when your attacker is coming from the rear, and your reaching.less detectable motion.

brownie0486
October 31, 2007, 02:51 AM
TallPine,

You beat me to that point.:D

Ricebrnr;

From a biomechanics point of view, strong side allows the muzzle to be rotated onto the target sooner and then allows you to punch forward, firing the whole time if absolutely necessary. Shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line right?

Muzzle to be rotated onto the target sooner? Not so sure on that count. I've actually had a few tell me that over the years and we unload em, double and triple check em, then try it. They lost every time.

I'll carry crossdraw, usually it was when I was carrying two guns doing EP work at one place or another back east. Easier to get to while moving in and out of vehicles with the principle, easier to keep a hand on a gun in a crowd without being obvious.

It became the primary in those situations, not the secondary. As the primary, it sweeps only from the point of 11 O clock [ if you are facing high noon at 12 O clock ], it is quite easy to keep from "painting" anyone, can be drawn in such a manner as to be "pushed' to the threat with no more painting than strong side carry.

It's fast. As to Mr. Jordan, he didn't carry his gun concealed, he moved amongst bad hombres all the time, usually in numbers, had to be in close proximity to these types while searching, talking, arresting them, etc. It wouldn't be the best for those times, and hence his oratory on the subject fits with what he saw as a bad idea.

His situations were different than most of us on the streets, using a man like Jordan as an example of why NOT to carry crossdraw is not germain to most of us in this discussion.

To answer the question: Whats wrong with crossdraw?

Not much for most of us.:D

Brownie

1911 guy
November 4, 2007, 08:53 AM
Retention is more difficult with a crossdraw.
Drawstroke is slower. If you can manage a quick crossdraw, you have the potential for a smokin' fast strongside draw.
It's almost worthless at contact distance. You'd better have a backup weapon.

Many schools won't allow it because they have no idea what the students' experience level is upon arrival, nor their attitude/training about trigger discipline. I've seen lot's of shooters with good trigger management (break, reset, finger position, etc.) but lousy discipline (keep booger hook off bang switch).

Strings
November 6, 2007, 01:58 PM
Odd... I go with a 1991 compact at 3:30, and a Smith 19 at 9:30-10.

Concealed under a sweater in winter, and a loose "cover shirt" in summer. Gives me the availability of a weapon in almost any circumstance, without the need of moving a gun around.

Safety on the draw? With the 19, my thumb is pushing against the back of the hammer until I'm on target: impossible for it to fire. I draw my .45 in a similar fashion (thumb on top of the cocked hammer until on target). Haven't yet had an ND with a pistol (need some wood to knock on now)...

dav
November 7, 2007, 10:06 PM
From a biomechanics point of view, strong side allows the muzzle to be rotated onto the target sooner and then allows you to punch forward, firing the whole time if absolutely necessary. Shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line right?
Brings up an interesting question. Why aren't there any (that I am aware of) horizontal carry strong side holsters?

That way there would be absolutely no rotation, sweeping, or even aiming! The gun would already be on target (assuming you face your target when you shoot...)

Wire
November 7, 2007, 11:05 PM
I'm confused by posts advocating crossdraw for motorcylists - the main advantage of crossdraw in a car is that the elbow is unimpeded during the draw. What is the appeal when there is room to maneuver?

trackaddict88
November 7, 2007, 11:51 PM
I really don't understand the crossdraw on a motorcycle. The front brake and throttle require your right hand and on a reasonably fast bike you can get out of trouble quick with the throttle.

Great site, BTW.

jem375
November 8, 2007, 01:06 AM
I carry crossdraw the majority of the time and it is the best for me and a faster draw. The trainers that don't allow crossdraw don't get my business since that is the way I carry for self defense...

The Lone Haranguer
November 8, 2007, 11:31 PM
If x-draw will allow one, in one's everyday personal situation(s), to access a gun faster, more easily or both (actually, these go hand in hand), why not avail oneself of it?

brownie0486
November 9, 2007, 12:01 AM
I really don't understand the crossdraw on a motorcycle

It's easier to access the weapon, the same reason when seated in a car [ you are still seated on a MC right?:D ]

Crossdraw was primary to horse soldiers, for the same reason. They were seated, and it's easier to access than strongside.

The front brake and throttle require your right hand and on a reasonably fast bike you can get out of trouble quick with the throttle.

Can the bike move faster than a bullet?;) There may be a time and place that if you need the gun, the bike, let alone anything else is not going to be fast enough. If you are carrying strongside, the controls you mention are still in the same place, but you're going to have a harder time drawing [ meaning it's taking longer ].

Brownie

brownie0486
November 9, 2007, 12:10 AM
1911 guy:

Retention is more difficult with a crossdraw.

That depends. I'll profer that if an attempted disarm comes from behind or the side of the weapon, the strongside carry will be much easier to take from the defender than crossdraw.;)

Drawstroke is slower.

Maybe, but I can put my hand on my gun in crossdraw, resting it there quite easily without drawing undue attention and with the hand on the gun, the "draw" is going to be much faster than strongside.

Pretty hard to walk around with strongside and your hand on the gun, look comfortable and not draw everyones attention in the process. Crossdraw, easy to place your hand on the gun [ which also translates to being able to control/retain it ] in a struggle.

Brownie

mightyike
November 9, 2007, 07:35 PM
I still like Cross Draw myself.

I think the previous comments by Brownie are how I feel....to me it's less likely to gather attention....and my age/physical status prevents a lightning bolt reaction....if it's do or die and the man is 30 years my junior, I'm dead.

But I'm a fair shot, Doc in Tombstone wore Cross Draw (for the people who believe in movies) and the pix from William Fairbairn's biography show the Shanghai Police with a holster-less cross draw handguns....I know it's dated, but cross draw seems faster and less conspicuous to me....

DawgFvr
November 9, 2007, 07:46 PM
In order to keep the weapon concealed...one would have to have the cross draw holster at 8:30 - 9:00...otherwise the butt will show as you move around if it is at 10 - 11 oclock. That is a pretty good reach if you ask me...and very, very slow presenting. Now...are you going to tell me you can keep your arms crossed and your hand on the butt? I can just imagine somebody walking around with their arms folded all day...No way is the cross draw fast drawing or less conspicuous. Ok...it might be one way to carry while driving in a vehicle that is comfortable...I'll give you that. Personally, I'd rather have a car holster myself. I can also see somebody in the field with a large bore/barrel weapon carried in cross draw fashion. I carry a rifle in the field myself. Aside from that...it is a bad idea IMO. Doc in Tombstone? Shanghai Police? Sounds like you are really reaching...hee, hee...pun intended.

Strings
November 9, 2007, 09:20 PM
See, this is where people need to learn that 'one size fits all doesn't"...

>In order to keep the weapon concealed...one would have to have the cross draw holster at 8:30 - 9:00...otherwise the butt will show as you move around if it is at 10 - 11 oclock.<

Wrong.

I can carry a Smith 19 at 10:30-11 completely concealed. A loose shirt (like a jersey) or sweater/sweatshirt will conceal a gun there...

Lonestar49
November 9, 2007, 10:43 PM
...

Thanks Strings, as when I read that, I was speechless.. :what:


Ls

DawgFvr
November 10, 2007, 05:03 PM
Of course everyone is different...and yes, I'm sure somebody could explain to me that carrying a pistol under their hat works for them...all right...I can actually see somebody completely covering up a cross draw weapon butt with a shirt, sweatshirt, etc., but tell me again just how this is a faster draw using one hand to clear the concealed garmet while presenting and swinging the weapon onto target. Slow...slow...and with the chance of a BG taking your weapon from you. Naw...I think Jordan had this one pegged just right...but I'll assume it works for you because you might have developed some unique technique...or perhaps your physique makes it work...to each his own.

brownie0486
November 10, 2007, 05:41 PM
but tell me again just how this is a faster draw using one hand to clear the concealed garmet while presenting and swinging the weapon onto target

I don't wear a pull over type garment with crossdraw, but an open front shirt. :D I can and have had the gun butt in hand with no one the wiser while on EP details. Yes, it's faster when performed correctly.

As to Jordan, he didn't wear cover garments in his gun battles, he wore an open duty rig with no impediment to access to the weapon. He practiced exclusively for the way he carried. With that in mind, his comments would make sense but can be completely taken out of context when discussing cover garments and crossdraw as civilians carry here in this thread.

If I wear a sweater or pull over with either crossdraw or strongside, I'd still have to move the cover garment by lifting it up and out of the way in either case. I'd guess a man who had practice doing so crossdraw extensively could outdraw a man who carried strongside and had not put the same amount of thought and time in to his own drawstroke.

Again, two men of equal skills would likely shoot each other, and neither would win/survive if they started at the same time. Thats where other skills come into play, as well as the drawstroke.;)

Brownie

sm
November 10, 2007, 06:00 PM
Something in this thread reminded me of a fella, a taxi driver.
Not always a taxi driver, still always a UC Cop *wink*

Right handed, still being in a taxi as he was, two guns on weak side.
One cross draw, the other weak hand draw.

He could shoot weak handed really really well! His environment, the taxi, meant he has some concealment needs, and if he needed to access for different situations, he could.

He also was mentored by a Seasoned Cop, to actually draw weak hand hand first, as BGs, like anyone, tend to focus on right side (being as most folks are right handed) and folks tend to focus on gun, therefore gun fire being directed at gun side.
So if matters got bad, and he did get shot, maybe the weak side and therefore allowing strong side to be the better side to finish the fight.

Quite a few Seasoned Cops, often suggested this weak side being first side to draw from...

Environment often dictates what a person needs to do for them.

Take out windows, drive thru, ticket takers, waitress in a diner, the cook, all sorts of folks.
Some with amputations find cross draw best, whether driving or answering the door.
Young lady, going through medical problems, wore a pain pump, we came up with a way for this 17 to carry a K frame while around her apt, and on complex...cross draw, and she was wearing shorts during the summer.

Shawnee
November 10, 2007, 06:44 PM
A point I don't think has been mentioned is that the weapon can be drawn from a cross-draw rig with either hand whereas that's not so with a strongside carry. I'll take that advantage over a 1/10th sec. draw speed any day simply because I have no intention of letting it all come down to draw speed.

My revolvers all ride crossdraw for masny of the reasons others have mentioned.

Super Blackhawk
Ruger Old Army
Colt 1861 Navy
Ruger SS-6

But then, the only time I carry my gun in a holster is when I'm hunting. It will already be in my hand if I think I may require its' services.

:cool:

Charles S
November 10, 2007, 07:02 PM
I would just like to point out I can easily draw from a strong side with my left hand.

Like it has been said before everyone is different.

Cross draw is fast enough...but strong side is faster.

Lonestar49
November 10, 2007, 08:30 PM
...

~ I've got 2 guns, one for each-of-ya ~

Cross draw _ Winner: Say when..

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/doc_holliday.jpg

Strong side _ Loser Johnny Ringo

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/john_ringo.jpg

My hypocrisy only goes so far..


Ls
____


Doc's strong side friend, and his lady..

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/wyatt_earp.jpg

Super Trucker
November 11, 2007, 11:24 PM
I have 2 different semi autos that I carry cross draw. Do what you are most comfortable with. I always have a revolver on my strong side, but sometimes carry a semi auto.

If you enjoyed reading about "What's wrong w/Cross-Draw?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!