comeandtakeit
October 20, 2007, 11:29 PM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=83277270
This is illegal, right?
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Daemon688
October 20, 2007, 11:31 PM
Why would it be?
SierraBT
October 20, 2007, 11:35 PM
Yep, VFGs on a pistol are a big no-no. I've seen a few AK pistols with them also.
comeandtakeit
October 20, 2007, 11:37 PM
I thought is was illegal to put a handle on the foregrip if was a pistol.
Dionysusigma
October 20, 2007, 11:37 PM
Fantastically illegal, since no mention of AOW is made.
Since the seller has no feedback, a major red flag is raised. :scrutiny: :eek:
Since the seller has no feedback, a major red flag is raised. :scrutiny: :eek:
Jim March
October 20, 2007, 11:38 PM
Yup - SO LONG AS THAT FORWARD HANDGRIP COMES OFF. Well, not in California of course, but in most states and under Federal rules it's fine without the forward grip.
If it was chopped down to something like this from a rifle, it'd be big trouble.
If you stick a fixed (or folding) shoulder stock on it with that length barrel, it's illegal again (unless you pay special Fed fees). The soft strap shown is fine.
If you put a fixed or folding stock on it AND lengthen the barrel to 16", and otherwise make sure it's at least 26" overall (with folded stock if you go that way), you've converted it to a legal rifle setup and that's legal! And you can swap parts back to handgun any time you want - so long as the barrel shrinks below 16" when the stock comes off.
If it was chopped down to something like this from a rifle, it'd be big trouble.
If you stick a fixed (or folding) shoulder stock on it with that length barrel, it's illegal again (unless you pay special Fed fees). The soft strap shown is fine.
If you put a fixed or folding stock on it AND lengthen the barrel to 16", and otherwise make sure it's at least 26" overall (with folded stock if you go that way), you've converted it to a legal rifle setup and that's legal! And you can swap parts back to handgun any time you want - so long as the barrel shrinks below 16" when the stock comes off.
Dionysusigma
October 20, 2007, 11:38 PM
Vertical fore-grip on a pistol!!!
Run away!
Run away!
SierraBT
October 20, 2007, 11:40 PM
Here we are: "Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).
Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.
To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.
A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch."
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).
Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.
To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.
A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch."
PPGMD
October 20, 2007, 11:42 PM
Yep, VFGs on a pistol are a big no-no. I've seen a few AK pistols with them also.
The law is unclear on this issue, and I can't find anywhere that the ATF has issued it's interpretation of the law.
The law is unclear on this issue, and I can't find anywhere that the ATF has issued it's interpretation of the law.
PPGMD
October 20, 2007, 11:46 PM
...so long as the barrel shrinks below 16" when the stock comes off.
I don't think there is a maximum pistol barrel length in the law. Because I have seen pistols with at least a two foot barrel (it was a SA revolver).
I don't think there is a maximum pistol barrel length in the law. Because I have seen pistols with at least a two foot barrel (it was a SA revolver).
p2000sk
October 20, 2007, 11:47 PM
I live in CT.
CT general statutes tend to frown on that
sort of thing.
It might look cool.
I think I had read some reviews about it.
No comment.
CT general statutes tend to frown on that
sort of thing.
It might look cool.
I think I had read some reviews about it.
No comment.
Hoppy590
October 20, 2007, 11:47 PM
so long as the barrel shrinks below 16" when the stock comes off.
not saying your wrong but can you tell me what ruling on this? my understanding a pistol is a pistol because of lack of stock and designed to fire one handed. im probibly missing something if seen before, but im drawing a blank
not saying your wrong but can you tell me what ruling on this? my understanding a pistol is a pistol because of lack of stock and designed to fire one handed. im probibly missing something if seen before, but im drawing a blank
Mannix
October 20, 2007, 11:49 PM
From the BATFE site (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter2.pdf)(warning, PDF).
The “any other weapon” definition excludes weapons designed to be fired from the shoulder that are not
capable of firing fixed ammunition or a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore. However, certain
alterations to a pistol or revolver, such as the addition of a second vertical handgrip, create a weapon that
no longer meets the definition of pistol or revolver. A pistol or revolver modified as described is an
“any other weapon” subject to the NFA because the weapon is not designed to be fired when held in one
hand.
So with the fore grip, it's illegal without the AOW paperwork.
The “any other weapon” definition excludes weapons designed to be fired from the shoulder that are not
capable of firing fixed ammunition or a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore. However, certain
alterations to a pistol or revolver, such as the addition of a second vertical handgrip, create a weapon that
no longer meets the definition of pistol or revolver. A pistol or revolver modified as described is an
“any other weapon” subject to the NFA because the weapon is not designed to be fired when held in one
hand.
So with the fore grip, it's illegal without the AOW paperwork.
frogomatic
October 20, 2007, 11:57 PM
my guts tell me this isn't a legit seller. No feedback and selling a seriously illegal gun. How much you wanna bet it's a setup? And if it is, could be construed as entrapment? If it ain't then the guy selling it is in some serious poo-poo
JWarren
October 21, 2007, 12:01 AM
so long as the barrel shrinks below 16" when the stock comes off.
Hoppy590 is right. A "pistol" can have a barrel as long as you want. It's when you get into firearms with stocks that you have to start worrying about barrel length. (16" for rifle, 18" for shotgun)
If my understanding of AOW's is correct, adding a forward vertical grip to a pistol creates an AOW -- which requires ATF paperwork. I don't know about whether or not it being detachable means anything or not.
Also... just as an FYI from some research I was doing for my own benefit. If one considers getting a shotgun as a Short Barrel Shotgun or AOW, there is one critical thing to consider.
If the shotgun was EVER a long gun-- but then is cut down-- it is a Short Barrel Shotgun. That means ATF paperwork as a Class III weapon and $200 tax stamp.
However, if the shotgun was made from a virgin receiver into a pistol, it is an AOW. This means ATF paperwork and a $5 tax stamp.
For instance...
If you get a Serbu Shorty Remington 870 created on a virgin receiver, you will have an AOW.
If you get a Hatcher "Snake Gun" which is a Stoeger Coach gun cut into a double barrel pistol, you have a Short Barrel Shotgun because it was originally a long shotgun.
Now, I assure you that Hatcher's cut-down Stoeger is NOT more lethal than a Serbu Shorty Remington 870. In fact, the Serbu holds 3 shots in a pump while the Hatcher obviously holds two.
The ATF is funny that way.
-- John
Hoppy590 is right. A "pistol" can have a barrel as long as you want. It's when you get into firearms with stocks that you have to start worrying about barrel length. (16" for rifle, 18" for shotgun)
If my understanding of AOW's is correct, adding a forward vertical grip to a pistol creates an AOW -- which requires ATF paperwork. I don't know about whether or not it being detachable means anything or not.
Also... just as an FYI from some research I was doing for my own benefit. If one considers getting a shotgun as a Short Barrel Shotgun or AOW, there is one critical thing to consider.
If the shotgun was EVER a long gun-- but then is cut down-- it is a Short Barrel Shotgun. That means ATF paperwork as a Class III weapon and $200 tax stamp.
However, if the shotgun was made from a virgin receiver into a pistol, it is an AOW. This means ATF paperwork and a $5 tax stamp.
For instance...
If you get a Serbu Shorty Remington 870 created on a virgin receiver, you will have an AOW.
If you get a Hatcher "Snake Gun" which is a Stoeger Coach gun cut into a double barrel pistol, you have a Short Barrel Shotgun because it was originally a long shotgun.
Now, I assure you that Hatcher's cut-down Stoeger is NOT more lethal than a Serbu Shorty Remington 870. In fact, the Serbu holds 3 shots in a pump while the Hatcher obviously holds two.
The ATF is funny that way.
-- John
Prince Yamato
October 21, 2007, 12:19 AM
It's probably just some dumb schmuck who doesn't know that just because you can physically put a vertical foregrip on a pistol doesn't doesn't mean you can legally put a vertical foregrip on a pistol. Poor guy's probably going to jail sometime soon...
Zoogster
October 21, 2007, 12:56 AM
Well if you were nice and do not take pleasure in seeing other people get into trouble you should send feedback to let the guy know do do something about it ASAP.
If the guy listens all is well. If he has an excuse or does not reply it is likely a setup and everyone that places a bid may find themselves in trouble. No reserve, so no minimum bid, started at .01 cent gives a good indication this seller may have more motivation for selling this than profit.
The no feedback could be a clue, though any decent agent could easily sell some legal items to build credibility so that does not really mean much.
Let him know, be a nice guy and inform him of the law. A link to the the applicable NFA law should be all he needs.
If the guy listens all is well. If he has an excuse or does not reply it is likely a setup and everyone that places a bid may find themselves in trouble. No reserve, so no minimum bid, started at .01 cent gives a good indication this seller may have more motivation for selling this than profit.
The no feedback could be a clue, though any decent agent could easily sell some legal items to build credibility so that does not really mean much.
Let him know, be a nice guy and inform him of the law. A link to the the applicable NFA law should be all he needs.
Crunker1337
October 21, 2007, 01:49 AM
Well you never know guys-it could have a 16" barrel that's transparent after the point where a normal barrel would end, thus making this gun a legal rifle. :)
This is a really illegal gun. Don't buy it, don't get involved in it, and just drop it and leave it alone or the man might come and burn your house down.
This is a really illegal gun. Don't buy it, don't get involved in it, and just drop it and leave it alone or the man might come and burn your house down.
zoom6zoom
October 21, 2007, 06:47 AM
However, if the shotgun was made from a virgin receiver into a pistol, it is an AOW. This means ATF paperwork and a $5 tax stamp.
It's a $5 stamp to transfer an AOW. However, since he states he installed the grip, that would constitute "making", which requires a $200 stamp.
It's a $5 stamp to transfer an AOW. However, since he states he installed the grip, that would constitute "making", which requires a $200 stamp.
Zoogster
October 21, 2007, 08:44 AM
It is actualy kinda sad that someone could get 20+ years and become a felon without even realizing it. Just by buying a cheap plastic handle and installing it on an existing rail as millions of people do with rifles with the same furniture.
Sliding that handle onto the rail makes someone suddenly cross over to the dark side. From naive gun owner to instant criminal felon, and not just any felon, one that is eligable for 20+ years. Transfering this thing across state lines has got to be an additional charge to not only possession and creation by sliding that piece of plastic down that rail, but also illegal arms trafficking etc
Just starting doing what has already been done on both buyer and seller side probably counts as conspiracy to commit all those crimes as well, which carries the same punishment as actualy doing them.
How dare he not spend hours of time researching laws and knowing that sliding the wrong piece of plastic on that rail is a big no no.
I mean don't we all spend hours learning every possible vehicle code after we buy a car? If changing your steering wheel was a felony you would have found the statute right?
What if changing the steering wheel is okay, but only if you add another mirror, but not if the car has more than 5 gears or is a sporty color?
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Sliding that handle onto the rail makes someone suddenly cross over to the dark side. From naive gun owner to instant criminal felon, and not just any felon, one that is eligable for 20+ years. Transfering this thing across state lines has got to be an additional charge to not only possession and creation by sliding that piece of plastic down that rail, but also illegal arms trafficking etc
Just starting doing what has already been done on both buyer and seller side probably counts as conspiracy to commit all those crimes as well, which carries the same punishment as actualy doing them.
How dare he not spend hours of time researching laws and knowing that sliding the wrong piece of plastic on that rail is a big no no.
I mean don't we all spend hours learning every possible vehicle code after we buy a car? If changing your steering wheel was a felony you would have found the statute right?
What if changing the steering wheel is okay, but only if you add another mirror, but not if the car has more than 5 gears or is a sporty color?
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Zoogster
October 21, 2007, 09:24 AM
If the shotgun was EVER a long gun-- but then is cut down-- it is a Short Barrel Shotgun. That means ATF paperwork as a Class III weapon and $200 tax stamp.
However, if the shotgun was made from a virgin receiver into a pistol, it is an AOW. This means ATF paperwork and a $5 tax stamp.
For instance...
If you get a Serbu Shorty Remington 870 created on a virgin receiver, you will have an AOW.
If you get a Hatcher "Snake Gun" which is a Stoeger Coach gun cut into a double barrel pistol, you have a Short Barrel Shotgun because it was originally a long shotgun.
Now, I assure you that Hatcher's cut-down Stoeger is NOT more lethal than a Serbu Shorty Remington 870. In fact, the Serbu holds 3 shots in a pump while the Hatcher obviously holds two.
The ATF is funny that way.
However the AOW costs $200 to make, and $5 to transfer, but can never have a shoulder stock legaly installed. Meaning you cannot convert said shotgun into a shoulder fired weapon. Even adding a longer barrel I can see the "once an AOW, always and AOW" kind of response. Well the federal law states that it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder to qualify.
The short barreled version however costs $200 to make (so same as AOW), but $200 to transfer as well. Yet it will allow you to install a stock, take off the stock, put on various barrel lengths in any configuration etc. So it has a lot more freedom.
Then of course some states allow AOW, but restrict SBR/SBS or the reverse.
Oh another thing to consider is that an NFA item makes a bad self defense arm because being found guilty of any crime with it makes one eligable for a serious federal enhancement. So if in a defense shooting you beat most of the charges, but even some minor ridiculous one sticks that they just want to give you probation for, you become eligible for a 20 year federal enhancement.
However, if the shotgun was made from a virgin receiver into a pistol, it is an AOW. This means ATF paperwork and a $5 tax stamp.
For instance...
If you get a Serbu Shorty Remington 870 created on a virgin receiver, you will have an AOW.
If you get a Hatcher "Snake Gun" which is a Stoeger Coach gun cut into a double barrel pistol, you have a Short Barrel Shotgun because it was originally a long shotgun.
Now, I assure you that Hatcher's cut-down Stoeger is NOT more lethal than a Serbu Shorty Remington 870. In fact, the Serbu holds 3 shots in a pump while the Hatcher obviously holds two.
The ATF is funny that way.
However the AOW costs $200 to make, and $5 to transfer, but can never have a shoulder stock legaly installed. Meaning you cannot convert said shotgun into a shoulder fired weapon. Even adding a longer barrel I can see the "once an AOW, always and AOW" kind of response. Well the federal law states that it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder to qualify.
The short barreled version however costs $200 to make (so same as AOW), but $200 to transfer as well. Yet it will allow you to install a stock, take off the stock, put on various barrel lengths in any configuration etc. So it has a lot more freedom.
Then of course some states allow AOW, but restrict SBR/SBS or the reverse.
Oh another thing to consider is that an NFA item makes a bad self defense arm because being found guilty of any crime with it makes one eligable for a serious federal enhancement. So if in a defense shooting you beat most of the charges, but even some minor ridiculous one sticks that they just want to give you probation for, you become eligible for a 20 year federal enhancement.
Thain
October 21, 2007, 09:40 AM
Not illeagal, just restricted. Pay your taxes and go have fun!
ilcylic
October 21, 2007, 10:26 AM
So, what if you make the second foregrip stick out the side of the gun? Still an AOW?
The Viking
October 21, 2007, 12:00 PM
So, what if you make the second foregrip stick out the side of the gun? Still an AOW?
Funny, I was thinking about the same thing...
Funny, I was thinking about the same thing...
rocinante
October 21, 2007, 12:24 PM
legality aside how good of a weapon is this kel-tec? I looked at the rifles and they are pretty cool the way the stock folds.
stevelyn
October 21, 2007, 12:29 PM
I suspect the sturmtruppen of the waffen BATFEces:barf: is trolling for an excuse to remain in existence. Entrapment of online buyers is much safer than going after real criminals who can actually be a threat.:fire:
MASTEROFMALICE
October 21, 2007, 12:47 PM
Not a problem. All we have to do is send a message to the seller and every one of the bidders to warn them that the sale is illegal as is. Of course all the seller has to do is take off the foregrip.
damien
October 21, 2007, 12:58 PM
The funny problem with this thing is very few people understand that it is illegal. There is a rail on that handgun. Forward grips go on the rails (intended for rifles, of course). So they say "cool" and slap it on, never knowing they are breaking the law. Which is easy to do, because no one would ever see this as being against a law. This law doesn't pass the common sense "this is probably against the law because an average person would think it should be against the law" mind test people apply when thinking about novel behavior. An average person just sees a piece of plastic intended for a rail and it never occurs to them something like that might be against the law.
I have even seen gun shops screw this up. I saw a Professional Arms (now Bushmaster) AR-15 pistol with a forward rail grip at Blythe's in Valparaiso, IN. Right on their wall, in plain view. I told the salesman that I though that would count as an AOW and he said that it did not. Next time it was gone and since then it has not reappeared. I guess they figured it out. And Blythe's is a pretty big full-service gun shop!
I have even seen gun shops screw this up. I saw a Professional Arms (now Bushmaster) AR-15 pistol with a forward rail grip at Blythe's in Valparaiso, IN. Right on their wall, in plain view. I told the salesman that I though that would count as an AOW and he said that it did not. Next time it was gone and since then it has not reappeared. I guess they figured it out. And Blythe's is a pretty big full-service gun shop!
Fletchette
October 21, 2007, 02:20 PM
Has anyone emailed this guy to let him know he is one step away from disappearing?
It would be a good courtesy for a fellow gunny.
edit: I tried clicking on "ask the seller a question" to email him, but the page does not load.
:confused:
It would be a good courtesy for a fellow gunny.
edit: I tried clicking on "ask the seller a question" to email him, but the page does not load.
:confused:
frogomatic
October 21, 2007, 02:43 PM
I emailed the seller about an hour ago, and have not yet recieved a response.
edit: still no response, the more time goes by the more and more I get the feeling it's a setup.
edit: still no response, the more time goes by the more and more I get the feeling it's a setup.
strat81
October 21, 2007, 04:37 PM
I also just e-mailed him. Hope he doesn't get pinched.
MASTEROFMALICE
October 21, 2007, 04:45 PM
I e-mailed him hours ago with no response. Anyone know how to report it to Gunbroker? I may be seen as a pain but better that then the ATF screwing someone.
Autolycus
October 21, 2007, 04:59 PM
Laws like this suck.
dralarms
October 21, 2007, 05:32 PM
All he has to do is take that ugly thing off. And BTW the plr 16 is killer.
Quiet
October 21, 2007, 05:47 PM
All he has to do is take that ugly thing off.
Also he has to get rid of it.
Otherwise, it's constructive possession of an unregistered AOW.
Leaving it as is, is possession of an unregistered AOW.
Both of which are federal felony.
Also he has to get rid of it.
Otherwise, it's constructive possession of an unregistered AOW.
Leaving it as is, is possession of an unregistered AOW.
Both of which are federal felony.
TexasRifleman
October 21, 2007, 05:48 PM
Otherwise, it's constructive possession of an unregistered AOW.
Only if he doesn't own any other firearm that could legally use it.
Only if he doesn't own any other firearm that could legally use it.
Prince Yamato
October 21, 2007, 06:45 PM
So, what if you make the second foregrip stick out the side of the gun? Still an AOW?
Yes, because it's still adding a foregrip to the gun. The "horizontal" foregrip (IE, like on a stock AK pistol) is really just a "barrel shroud".
Yes, because it's still adding a foregrip to the gun. The "horizontal" foregrip (IE, like on a stock AK pistol) is really just a "barrel shroud".
dralarms
October 21, 2007, 07:12 PM
If I had that thing I would put it on my SU-16 and leave the plr 16 alone.
Acera
October 21, 2007, 07:35 PM
Has anyone notified Gunbroker?? Or know how to, website is not friendly in this regard.
p.s. Good Post on first page Mannix
p.s. Good Post on first page Mannix
ReadyontheRight
October 21, 2007, 07:51 PM
I sure wish there was an easy way to help the other 99% of the US popluation know how ridiculous Federal gun laws are.
You can't attacha vertical handle to a pistol forend?
Can you attach an extra-wide, very short flashlight? How about a cell phone? Or a drink holder?
It's like those old laws you hear about that are on the books, like "A person may not cross state lines with a duck atop his head."
Hmmm. Would a duck stapled underneath a pistol be considered "vertical" or "horizontal"? And could you legally cross state lines?
You can't attacha vertical handle to a pistol forend?
Can you attach an extra-wide, very short flashlight? How about a cell phone? Or a drink holder?
It's like those old laws you hear about that are on the books, like "A person may not cross state lines with a duck atop his head."
Hmmm. Would a duck stapled underneath a pistol be considered "vertical" or "horizontal"? And could you legally cross state lines?
EricTheBarbarian
October 21, 2007, 07:56 PM
looks like a trap to me. The Batfe trying to get someone who doesnt know the law.
mp510
October 21, 2007, 09:30 PM
The seller was told repeatadly that the weapon in that configuration, unless registered as an AOW was illegal- last time he listed it on GB. GHe does know, and he still chooses to risk it.
Jim March
October 21, 2007, 09:54 PM
So...we can have legal 20" barrel handguns?
:)
Didn't know that :). Not that it'd be really useful...
:)
Didn't know that :). Not that it'd be really useful...
Jim March
October 21, 2007, 09:56 PM
So we can run 20" barrels on handguns?
:)
Not that it'd be real useful...
:)
Not that it'd be real useful...
fixyurgun
October 21, 2007, 10:07 PM
I've got a FIE with a 19.5" barrel. The atf agent that did my pre-license inspection said that there was no restriction on barrel lenght for handguns. jim
BobMcG
October 21, 2007, 10:47 PM
Oh well, can't no more than warn him, and he's been warned. It's just a little strange that he hasn't responded to anyone. It seems he would at some point if he's on the up & up.
frogomatic
October 21, 2007, 11:17 PM
still no response, at this point I'm betting that this is some $#^!head from BATFE tying to entrap some sap who doesn't know the law.
Daemon688
October 22, 2007, 12:55 AM
Well some things to note:
1. No, it's not illegal to have a vertical foregrip on a pistol. You just need to jump through the legal hoops to do so.
2. NONE of us here know for certain that this is a registered/unregistered gun. Yes, it could be some trick by the BATFE but this could be legitimate as well.
3. If I were the seller and everyone on THR was e-mailing me that I should remove my listing because it's "illegal", I would probably be ignoring them too and rolling my eyes.
4. Yes, whoever wins this auction better get it legally transferred or else they'll be looking at jail time.
1. No, it's not illegal to have a vertical foregrip on a pistol. You just need to jump through the legal hoops to do so.
2. NONE of us here know for certain that this is a registered/unregistered gun. Yes, it could be some trick by the BATFE but this could be legitimate as well.
3. If I were the seller and everyone on THR was e-mailing me that I should remove my listing because it's "illegal", I would probably be ignoring them too and rolling my eyes.
4. Yes, whoever wins this auction better get it legally transferred or else they'll be looking at jail time.
Jorg
October 22, 2007, 01:28 AM
I'm confused. Why do we think this is an ATF agent? Because the auction is still up and he hasn't responded to random emails telling him it is illegal? Hm, let's look at some reason that could be.
He doesn't check his email on Sunday.
He doesn't check his email every day.
He checks it daily, but already did this morning.
He doesn't have internet access at home.
His internet access could be down.
His email could be broken.
His spam filters may have captured all your email.
This could be his anniversary and his wife told him to stay off the computer this weekend.
He could be deer hunting.
He could be pheasant hunting.
He might have gone out of town for the weekend.
He may have gotten the emails and is not responding because he'd been told not to respond to unsolicited emails.
He may have gotten the emails but is dismissing them as he doesn't know any of you from Adam.
He may have gotten the emails and isn't replying because he doesn't know what to say.
He may have gotten the emails and wants to call the ATF tomorrow to ask before taking down his auction.
He may have gotten the emails and forwarded them to gunbroker.com for advice.
He may have gotten the emails and thinks you're all idiots who don't know the law and deleted them.
He may have gotten the emails and simply not cared.
He may have gotten the emails and is trying to figure out what to do.
He may have gotten the emails and has been too overwhelmed to answer.
He may have gotten the emails and can't figure out how to cancel his auction.
Or what seems to be the favorite option on the board despite a number of infinately more plausible options :
He is actually an undercover ATF agent who has launched brilliant scheme to bust both a buyer and a FFL dealer by having them unwittingly buy and transfer an AOW over the internet.
Today, Occam has a 5 o'clock shadow.
He doesn't check his email on Sunday.
He doesn't check his email every day.
He checks it daily, but already did this morning.
He doesn't have internet access at home.
His internet access could be down.
His email could be broken.
His spam filters may have captured all your email.
This could be his anniversary and his wife told him to stay off the computer this weekend.
He could be deer hunting.
He could be pheasant hunting.
He might have gone out of town for the weekend.
He may have gotten the emails and is not responding because he'd been told not to respond to unsolicited emails.
He may have gotten the emails but is dismissing them as he doesn't know any of you from Adam.
He may have gotten the emails and isn't replying because he doesn't know what to say.
He may have gotten the emails and wants to call the ATF tomorrow to ask before taking down his auction.
He may have gotten the emails and forwarded them to gunbroker.com for advice.
He may have gotten the emails and thinks you're all idiots who don't know the law and deleted them.
He may have gotten the emails and simply not cared.
He may have gotten the emails and is trying to figure out what to do.
He may have gotten the emails and has been too overwhelmed to answer.
He may have gotten the emails and can't figure out how to cancel his auction.
Or what seems to be the favorite option on the board despite a number of infinately more plausible options :
He is actually an undercover ATF agent who has launched brilliant scheme to bust both a buyer and a FFL dealer by having them unwittingly buy and transfer an AOW over the internet.
Today, Occam has a 5 o'clock shadow.
hotpig
October 22, 2007, 11:06 AM
I know it may differ from Office to office. The ATF guys that I work with on the task force are to busy with open cases to mess with this type of "ringing up business".
Every since they have been moved to the DOJ their money has been tight. One guy that I know is to be transfered to a Office a few hundred miles away. Since they do not have money in the budget this year it will be a while before he moves.
Every since they have been moved to the DOJ their money has been tight. One guy that I know is to be transfered to a Office a few hundred miles away. Since they do not have money in the budget this year it will be a while before he moves.
romma
October 22, 2007, 11:08 AM
I can't help think that these laws are really silly... A foregrip makes the pistol deadlier?... :p
TexasRifleman
October 22, 2007, 11:12 AM
I can't help think that these laws are really silly...
Of course they are silly. These things are not meant to deter crime, don't ever think for a second that they are.
They give prosecutors a way to "dogpile" charges on someone who is caught doing something else as well as making criminals out of people just flat ignorant of the law.
Of course they are silly. These things are not meant to deter crime, don't ever think for a second that they are.
They give prosecutors a way to "dogpile" charges on someone who is caught doing something else as well as making criminals out of people just flat ignorant of the law.
Fletchette
October 22, 2007, 03:20 PM
Should we contact bidders? If it is entrapment the bidders are the targets.
Navy joe
October 22, 2007, 03:41 PM
What I want to know is if I have an AR with a VHF and a PLR-16 with a rail have I met the requirements for "constructive possession? What if I have a spare VFG because I am trying two different styles? Truly stupid law.
TexasRifleman
October 22, 2007, 03:46 PM
What if I have a spare VFG because I am trying two different styles?
IANAL and all that crap but....
There have been letters from ATF, and the Thompson case that went before the Supremes that basically say if you have a weapon that can LEGALLY use the parts then you are OK by having spares or extras.
If you have no firearm that can legally use the parts then the only reason to own them is to break the law.
That's my interpretation of the law and how I've heard it repeated many times.
Not a lawyer etc. but I do have a whole safe full of NFA stuff and that rule is how I try to keep out of any gray areas.
Read the Thompson case, very interesting.
From the wiki version. The whole thing is worth reading but this gets to the point.
The court ruled in Thompson Center Arms' favor in that the carbine conversion kit did not constitute a short barreled rifle, primarily because the kit contained both the stock and the 16 inch barrel.
This circumstance caused the court to apply the rule of lenity since the NFA carries criminal penalties with it. This meant that ambiguous statutes are interpreted against the government.
IANAL and all that crap but....
There have been letters from ATF, and the Thompson case that went before the Supremes that basically say if you have a weapon that can LEGALLY use the parts then you are OK by having spares or extras.
If you have no firearm that can legally use the parts then the only reason to own them is to break the law.
That's my interpretation of the law and how I've heard it repeated many times.
Not a lawyer etc. but I do have a whole safe full of NFA stuff and that rule is how I try to keep out of any gray areas.
Read the Thompson case, very interesting.
From the wiki version. The whole thing is worth reading but this gets to the point.
The court ruled in Thompson Center Arms' favor in that the carbine conversion kit did not constitute a short barreled rifle, primarily because the kit contained both the stock and the 16 inch barrel.
This circumstance caused the court to apply the rule of lenity since the NFA carries criminal penalties with it. This meant that ambiguous statutes are interpreted against the government.
DoubleTapDrew
October 22, 2007, 03:56 PM
I can't help think that these laws are really silly... A foregrip makes the pistol deadlier?...
There's your problem, you aren't supposed to THINK! A hunk of plastic on the front that sits vertically instead of horizontally makes it, oh, at least 30 times deadlier. Kind of like shorter barrels or stocks on shotguns or rifles will blow someone clear across the room and through a wall. Don't get me started on that thing that goes up! It's for teh childrens!
There's your problem, you aren't supposed to THINK! A hunk of plastic on the front that sits vertically instead of horizontally makes it, oh, at least 30 times deadlier. Kind of like shorter barrels or stocks on shotguns or rifles will blow someone clear across the room and through a wall. Don't get me started on that thing that goes up! It's for teh childrens!
TexasRifleman
October 22, 2007, 04:00 PM
Remember too that this mess was written in 1934. LOOOONG before Brady and Feinstein and McCarthy and Bloomberg.
Imagine if it was written today!
Imagine if it was written today!
Acera
October 22, 2007, 04:32 PM
I contacted Gunbroker. They are addressing this issue with the seller.
REOIV
October 22, 2007, 04:33 PM
All I have to say is I would love to be on the jury being told to convict this guy of a crime.
I would laugh my balls off.
The NFA, like 99% of all other gun laws, is junk plain and simple. It makes felons out of law abiding citizens for non-violent victimless crimes.
I would laugh my balls off.
The NFA, like 99% of all other gun laws, is junk plain and simple. It makes felons out of law abiding citizens for non-violent victimless crimes.
Grizzly Adams
October 23, 2007, 02:05 PM
REOIV is correct! This will be interpreted as many different way as there are ATF agents. I had a similiar question that I posed to agent when I live in Sacramento. I called three separate times, talked to three separate agents, and get three separate answers. Thats one of the reasons I let my FFL expire. No matter how careful a dealer is these laws are so vague he does stand a chance!!
Fletchette
October 23, 2007, 02:29 PM
All I have to say is I would love to be on the jury being told to convict this guy of a crime.
I would laugh my balls off.
The NFA, like 99% of all other gun laws, is junk plain and simple. It makes felons out of law abiding citizens for non-violent victimless crimes.
...and it is for that reason that you would be filtered out and never sit on the jury. So much for "jury of one's peers".
:(
I would laugh my balls off.
The NFA, like 99% of all other gun laws, is junk plain and simple. It makes felons out of law abiding citizens for non-violent victimless crimes.
...and it is for that reason that you would be filtered out and never sit on the jury. So much for "jury of one's peers".
:(
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