[mtallman]

Hi,
I've searched several forums and have a few questions about loading for my Garand. I assure that I have searched for these and haven't been able to find answers.

First of all, I have made up a first batch of 150gr FMJBT with 48gr of IMR4895...I assume that this is a safe load? I have noticed that the bullets are much farther back than my LC match ammo (I think 168gr). Is it dangerous that the bullet has to jump to the rifling? Should the bullets be seated farther up, or is this natural with a 150gr?

I have 400 LC 1F cases on the way. I have heard from a post on another forum that one must reduce loads by 10% with military brass for safe pressure, however I have found no mention of this anywhere else? Am I correct in assume that this is not correct?

Third, I have heard that by changing the location of the shoulder one can give the brass a longer life? Which way and how much should it be moved? (I am fairly new to re-loading).

Lastly, I have had many people tell me that I must use CCI milspec #34 primers for safe function. Besides the fact that they are hard to find in Canada, I have several thousand Winchester Large Rifle primers around. Assuming I seat them correctly, is there a fair change of having a slam fire?

Oh, and does anyone know if Federal blue box 150gr is safe to shoot through a Garand?

Thanks,
Matt

[10X]

You will be very safe with 48 gr of 4895 and 150 gr bullet. I suggest you locate a reloading manual. The maximum charge for 4064 is 53 grains with a 150 gr bullet. I believe the max is the same for 4895 with a 150 gr bullet. Be sure to check a reloading manual. I would not load for a Garand above 52 grains.

Don't worry about the jump. The shorter overall length is expected with a 150 gr bullet. LC military match is 173 grains. It will be much longer than a 150 grain bullet.

Reducing charges for military brass came from the fact the military brass is thicker than commercial brass. There is less internal capacity. So, more pressure from a military case than a commercial case with the same charge. Start with the 48 grain load and make up some others increasing the charge by one-half grain. Don't go up to the max. You will be able to tell by feel how the operating rod is cycling. If it has a hint of stickiness when ejecting rounds, stop immediately. That is an overcharge. Pick a lower charge that gives you the best groups and stay with that.

I use Winchester Large Rifle primers exclusively. I fired thousands of them in M1s and M1As with excellent results.

Call or email Federal about using their ammo in a Garand.

[scott5]

Hi M,
The Load that I shoot in my M1 is 52gr. of either AA4064 or IMR4064 with 150gr bullet.
And shooting offhand I can hit the gong at 200 yards, so I'd say that that load is accurate.:D
And I use regular CCI-200, WLP, Remington Large Rifle Primers with no slam fires.

I hope this helps.

[ShunZu]

Pet load for one of my M1s is 48.2 grains of IMR4350 with 180 grain Hornady. I also use Winchester large rifle primers exclusively for .308 and .30/06 and have NEVER had a problem in many thousands of rounds fired on ranges and in competition through the years. One of my M1s prefers 190 grain bullets for some reason (she's an old '41 Winchester) and better accuracy with 48.0 grains IMR4350 for that piece. Brass lasts a nice, long time with that load, also. That rifle also shot some experimental 168gr Sierra Matchking 168gr BTHP much better than I expected with 51.4 grains of IMR4350. Embarrasingly, it put my 7 year old M1A Springfield National Match M1A to shame (with ITS pet load). The old warhorses were shooters... Damn shame a nearly-new $1800 national match M1A can't shoot with them. Something is broken -- Springfield has apparently lost the recipe for building accurate rifles. (With apologies to those who have M1A's that shoot well. Mine's been back to the factory TWICE with no corrective action on Springfield's part and no response to 3 letters).

You'll see these here over and over, but it's good advice....

#1 rule: Always load with a manual in front of you.
#2 rule: Never start at max load... start somewhere in the middle and slowly work your way up after test firing a few rounds to see how the groups tighten or loosen.
#3 rule: These are only some of MY pet loads... your results will/may/could vary. :)

Oh, and one more thing that I don't remember seeing here. Be careful backing off TOO much if you're using a powder that has INVERSE pressure results with reduced loads, such as 2400. In the rifle forum with slower burning powders, this shouldn't be a problem -- but if you also load magnum handgun rounds, don't drop off the chart in reducing loads with 2400 because the pressures go through the roof.

[NuJudge]

I would not use 4350 in a Garand. There is a high probability that you will bend your Op Rod.

CDD

[USSR]

Ditto, do NOT use IMR4350 in loads designed for a Garand. You will damage your op rod and/or receiver in short order.

Don

[stoney1666]

I'm using 48.5 gr of 4064 with a 150 gr FMJBT in the M-1.

[BsChoy]

Mine is 47.0 of IMR 4064 behind a Hornady standard interlock bullet...very accurate but seems slow in comparison

[Khornet]

best M1 accuracy comes with velocities around 2600-2650. Most of your 50 gr 4064 and 4895 loads will be above that. They will be close to original M2 Ball ballistics, which is OK, but unnecessary. This holds true for 168 and 173 gr bullets as well.

A very popular 4895 load for 150 gr is usually around 46.5 gr, which has given me the best results and, incidentally, comes in on my chrono at around 2600 fps.

I think the "load down in GI brass" thing is maybe true for 7.62 NATO, but not for .30-'06. I disassembled some 1942 M2 ball and found 52-53 gr of powder, if I recall.

I seat my bullets to give OAL (using a comparator, not the bullet tip) close to a sample M2 Ball round, or a little longer as long as it will feed.

I think the "hard primer" thing is overblown, though there are some here who will strongly disagree. If your rifle is in good order and you always load from a clip, you'll be OK.

I've used 4064, 4895, 748, and Accurate 2520 with good results.

[nicholst55]

KHornet wrote: "I think the "load down in GI brass" thing is maybe true for 7.62 NATO, but not for .30-'06. I disassembled some 1942 M2 ball and found 52-53 gr of powder, if I recall."

Government ammunition plants load with non-canister powders, and the required or desired load can vary by several grains from lot to lot with these powders. One lot may need 52 grains of powder to develop the desired velocity/pressure, while a subsequent lot may only require 49 grains. GI .30-06 brass DOES require reduced loads compared to commercial brass. Older loading manuals specify this. Current ones probably figure that there isn't that much of the GI brass still in use and omit the precaution.

[Deanimator]

+1 on NOT using 4350 and heavy bullets in a Garand. You'll bend the op rod eventually.

I've used 4895, 4064 and AA2495BR.

I use 4350 and 200gr. Sierra Matchkings for the .30-06 loads for my Savage 112BVSS. Great 600-1000 yard load.

[SlamFire1]

First and foremost when reloading for a gas gun, you want to create safe ammunition. Secondarliy you want functional ammunition. Extending case life should be of lesser importance.

The CCI#34 primer recommendations have been given because of the potential of a slamfire, or worse, an out of battery slamfire in the M1 Garand.

Eliminating slamfires is a matter of process control. As I have been informed by some of the best service rifle gunsmiths, you have to size the case smaller than the chamber. You want absolutely no delay or resistance to bolt closure.

Firstly, buy a Wilson type case gage and size your cases to gage minimum. If your rifle is within correct headspace then you will not be overly reducing the length of your case. Over sizing will result in case head separations. If you are firing ammunition in a modern aftermarket barrel, it is highly likely the chamber is smaller than a military chamber. In this instance, you should size your cases with a small base die. It is still a prudent practice if you are firing your cases in the original military barrel. Thirdly, use the least sensitive primers around. This would be CCi#34’s, and apparently the CCI large rifle have a reputation for being insensitive. The new WLR are much thinner than the old great nickel plated WLR, and someone on this forum reported a slamfire with one. In no case should you ever use Federal primers. Whenever I heard of a slamfire in a Garand or M1a, I would ask the shooter what happened. In each and every case that I was able to talk to the principle participant, the common thread was Federal primers. Federals are too sensitive to use in Garands and M1a’s.

I do recommend reaming the pocket to depth, I do that and I hand seat each primer by hand and examine that it is below the case head.

I have shot thousands of 168's in Garands, but only a few 150's. With a 150 SMK I found 47.5 grains of IMR 4895 gave me a velocity of 2722 fps in a match barrel. It would not hurt to cut the load to 46.5 grains or 47.0 grains.

[ShunZu]

I hear what you're saying guys, but over 2K rounds with 4350 and my op rod is very healthy, thank you. And it's shot 350's to 375's in the 400 pt DCM matches and I'm happy with the results. It's a Springfield op rod anyway (not a Winchester), so if it gives way to stress in return for excellent groups, so be it. Cost of doing business.

[MAUSER88]

I use H335 with very good results for the last 15 + years.

[Lambo]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d9/RWLambo/Gun%20Photos/GarandData101.jpg

[zxcvbob]

I'm getting my paperwork together to order a Service grade M1 from CMP.

I have a little over 2 pounds of Reloder-12. I've ordered a case of CCI #34 primers and a keg of Data Powder #85. (DP-85 is supposed to be a little slower than 4350.) I plan on using the DP-85 in a Rem 700.

Once I run out of the Rel-12, isn't there some kind of adjustable gas port you can put on a Garand to allow use of heavy bullets and/or slow powders as loaded for a bolt-action rifle? I've read about them but don't remember the details. :confused:

[pccraig]

So am I looking at a safe load using:

150G bullet
42.5 gr H4895
CCI LR primers

?

[BsChoy]

I would say thats a very safe load...I use 47.0 of 4064 and its slower than 4895...no worries...you can easily bump that to 46-48 grains...just work it up slow

[ShunZu]

Now y'all have cost me more money. I've gotta go buy another .30/06 in bolt action to shoot up all that 4350 heavy bullet loads I made, and reload a bunch more with lighter bullets and different powders to save the old Garand.

:neener:

[USSR]

Good move, ShunZu.

Don

[Wildfire]

The idea of down loading Mil. spec brass has nothing to do with what caliber it is. It is because of how that brass was made. Thicker ! Heavier and has less strecth. Cases will not last as long as commercial brass. Some of my most accurate loads have come from Mil spec brass. I no longer use it. But the fact that it must be down loaded remains the fact. That brass is less tolerant to heavy loads. It was made to fire once.......
No Military brass was made or designed with a reloader in mind....
Many places market the stuff and tell you it is reloadable. It is. But was not made that way or designed that way. That information is in all of my reloading manuals.
Cutting the primer pockets to .133 to .134" deep eliminates slam fires no matter what primer you use. If the primer sets .002 to .003" below the head instead of flush or above the head a slam fire cant happen. Normal firing pin protrusion should be .055" plenty long enough.
Heavy loads will bend that OP rod. Not maybe. It's not very easy to starighten one either. Usually requires a new one. Even with the gas release.

[USSR]

The idea of down loading Mil. spec brass has nothing to do with what caliber it is. It is because of how that brass was made. Thicker ! Heavier and has less strecth. Cases will not last as long as commercial brass. Some of my most accurate loads have come from Mil spec brass. I no longer use it. But the fact that it must be down loaded remains the fact. That brass is less tolerant to heavy loads. It was made to fire once.......
No Military brass was made or designed with a reloader in mind....
Many places market the stuff and tell you it is reloadable. It is. But was not made that way or designed that way. That information is in all of my reloading manuals.
Cutting the primer pockets to .133 to .134" deep eliminates slam fires no matter what primer you use. If the primer sets .002 to .003" below the head instead of flush or above the head a slam fire cant happen. Normal firing pin protrusion should be .055" plenty long enough.
Heavy loads will bend that OP rod. Not maybe. It's not very easy to starighten one either. Usually requires a new one. Even with the gas release.

Wildfire,

While no military brass was made or designed with the reloader in mind, as you said, you are off by a mile as to the suitability of military brass for such purposes. Actually, the military cases in 7.62x51 and .30-06 will last much longer than commercial brass, and the brass is more tolerant of heavy loads.

Don

[pccraig]

Wildfire & USSR

I'm very interested in your opposing opinions on the military brass.

I am by no means an expert on reloading, and use a manual religiously while loading. Along with using my manual, I also view these boards as a valuable source with respect to other's experiences.

Wildfire, your points about primer seating make perfect sense. But it seems the thicker Military brass would provide for more shots per case.

Is it your opinion that the thicker / less flexible cases experience more "stress" per shot, and subsequently, rupture sooner ?

Thanks

[foghornl]

Copy & Paste from Hodgdon’s website re: powder for .30-06 loads for the Garand

If loads are to be used in a semi-auto, especially the Garand, H4895 should be the powder of choice to protect the operating rod. The gas system of the Garand was designed to use the amount of gas produced by H4895 for proper function.

[pccraig]

foghornl

Thanks for the confirmation on the H4895 for my Garand.

For economy's sake, I was actually looking for a common powder to use with a 150GR bullet for my Garand, K31, and Krag. My Lee manual had starting loads using that combination for all 3.

Do you have any input on the question surrounding the use of Military 30-06 brass for reloading ?

Thanks

[USSR]

If loads are to be used in a semi-auto, especially the Garand, H4895 should be the powder of choice to protect the operating rod. The gas system of the Garand was designed to use the amount of gas produced by H4895 for proper function.

You really need to "read into" what is being said here. "the Garand was designed to use the amount of gas produced by H4895 for proper function". Notice, they are not saying the Garand was designed to use H4895 powder, as it wasn't. From about 1940 until the last USGI .30-06 ammo was produced in the late sixties or early 70's, the gov't used Dupont's IMR4895. IMR4895 was also used in all M72 Match ammo.

Don

[BeJaRa]

All I load for my Garand is military brass and the only ones I have ever thrown away are due to corrosion and not excessive wear. I do keep all the stray 30-06 commercial brass I find, but that is for a rainy day as the extraction of a Garand tends to be rough on the thinner commercial brass. Right now I load LC brass using 48 gr IMR 3031 with Nosler 150gr BT and WLR primers. THat load does great out to 150 yrds, after that I don't know how it does as I don't have a range any longer than 150. I did get a good deal on a bulk of hornady 150gr FMJ that I will use to test out W748.

[pccraig]

understood,

protecting my operating rod is a priority.

[pccraig]

BeJaRa

Thanks for the input. I've got tons of military brass from my CMP purchased ammo that I'm still shooting.

I also scrounge and save the commercial stuff at the range, especially now while the "orange hoard" is out there blasting away in preparation for deer season. (it's prettier than my LC stuff)

Any other opinions on the Military brass out there ? Also, an explanation of the difference between CCI LR & CCI # 34 primers as they relate to the Garand would be a big help.

[USSR]

Any other opinions on the Military brass out there ? Also, an explanation of the difference between CCI LR & CCI # 34 primers as they relate to the Garand would be a big help.

Most .30-06 military brass is heavier than most commercial brass, however, there are a couple of exceptions. USGI brass as made by Winchester (WRA headstamp) is very light, as is all Winchester commercially made brass. Commercially made Lapua brass (the best there is) is almost identical in weight to LC Match brass, and similar loads developed in these two cases will yield similar velocities. While there are some that buy into using CCI #34 primers exclusively for Garands, many, many shooters use Winchester primers without a problem. Just make sure that you uniform the primer pockets to the proper depth, and ensure that all primers are properly seated. I cannot comment on the use of any other primer in a Garand, as I have only used the Winchesters.

Don

[BeJaRa]

I am thinking about using the CCI #34 primers with W748 just because CCI says they are to be treated as magnum primers and they seem to be cheaper than regular magnum large rifle primers.

[USSR]

I am thinking about using the CCI #34 primers with W748 just because CCI says they are to be treated as magnum primers and they seem to be cheaper than regular magnum large rifle primers.

BeJaRa,

If I were to use a ball powder such as W748, I would use the CCI #34 primers as well.

Don

[pccraig]

So would a combination of :

CCI # 34 primers
&
Military brass
&
H4895 (starting load)

be appropriate for my Garand ?

[USSR]

So would a combination of :

CCI # 34 primers
&
Military brass
&
H4895 (starting load)

be appropriate for my Garand ?

Yep. But just remember, you are talking about using a magnum primer, and all the loads in the reloading manuals will be with standard LR primers.

Don

[pccraig]

OK,

So what is the magnum primer worth in terms of powder grains ? -.5 -1 ?

[USSR]

So what is the magnum primer worth in terms of powder grains ? -.5 -1 ?

Don't know, but I would error on the side of caution and reduce a known good load that I was using by a full grain when subbing a magnum primer. Since you are talking about starting at the lowest charge weights listed in reloading manuals, that amount of reduction in charge weight will more than cover the change in primer; you just probably won't be able to use the max loads listed.

Don

[pccraig]

Thanks USSR

As a rule, I never use maximum loads. My reloading priorities are:

1. Personal safety
2. Rifle safety
3. Accuracy
4. Cost

[mtallman]

Just one more question...
The NRA article on Garand loading lists the max load for H4895 at 49gr (150gr bullet), while the Hornady Garand page lists the max load as 46.4gr. Is the red square in the Hornady manual simply a suggested max, or a max load?

I plan to work my loads up, but just want to make sure that I can go past 46.4gr safely.

[jjmcnace]

I would start around 44.0 and work up. I have been able to safely go above Hornadays max loads for IMR 4895 and IMR 4064. In my opinion Hornadys Garand section is very conservative.

My best load to date is 47.2 gr IMR 4064; CCI #34 primers; SMK 150 gr; LC 69 brass.

Don't have the manual here in front of me, but that is probably above max.

47.0 gr IMR 4064 and SMK 168 gr also good with CCI #34 primers

[BsChoy]

My 150 grain Hornady load of 47.0 grains of 4064 only shhots at 2550fps...well under milspec for the M2 ball or 2700~fps...On USSR's suggestion i bumped it up to 49.0 grains and it still shoy really well but My chrono malf'd and couldn't get the speed.

[ShunZu]

As a source of good mil brass, I don't know if you've tried Jeff, but I've always had very good luck with him as a source for .30/06 and .308.

http://www.gibrass.com/