The problem with conceal carry??


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RM
July 14, 2003, 08:26 AM
I have never heard of any problems related to people in states with legal conceal carry laws. I was just curious. Have there been any?

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TarpleyG
July 14, 2003, 10:31 AM
I remember when I lived in Texas and they had just passed the CHL there, some guy got into a heated "road rage" incident and shot a guy that tried to punch him. Other than that, you don't hear much about CCWs causing a ruckus.

GT

TheOtherOne
July 14, 2003, 12:10 PM
Back in October of 2002, Robert Flores killed 3 people at the University of Arizona. He had a CCW.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/29/national/main527308.shtml

"Student Lori Schenkel said she had several classes with Flores and he told classmates about a year ago that he had gotten a concealed weapon permit."

http://cgi3.azstarnet.com/specialreport/page22.html

"I have a concealed carry permit but I have never brought a gun to the University, (until now)."

Dial911inVegas
July 14, 2003, 12:33 PM
Would liability fit into this topic? Has anyone ever heard of a CCW permit holder being held liable (sued) by the BG? This is a topic that has been covered in the CCW classes I've attended. One instructor went so far as to say "put your house, your cars, and your bank accounts in the name of your kids!".

Bartholomew Roberts
July 14, 2003, 01:45 PM
I remember when I lived in Texas and they had just passed the CHL there, some guy got into a heated "road rage" incident and shot a guy that tried to punch him.

Actually, in that incident there was a fender bender where the younger man (a body builder in his 20s) attacked an older man in his 40s-50s and attempted to drag him out of his vehicle, seat belt and all through the window and was punching his head against the frame of the door when the person retrieved a gun and shot him. I believe it was ultimately no-billed due to disparity of force issues.

Since then though, there has been a taxi driver in Texas with a CHL who shot a passenger in what he claimed was self-defense but the forensic evidence seems to say otherwise. He was indicted last I had heard. It is in the TFL archives.

jdege
July 14, 2003, 01:52 PM
I heard reports that Flores had told people he had a carry permit, I don't remember any reports that confirmed that he had been telling the truth.

Also, the shooting took place in a victim-disarmament zone - Flores wasn't carrying legally under the terms of his permit at the time of the shootijng.

So in my mind, whether or not Flores had a permit or not is of questionable relevence. Either way, Flores broke the law by carrying where he was carrying, and is usually the case, the shooting happened where only criminals were armed.

thorazine
July 14, 2003, 01:56 PM
Would liability fit into this topic? Has anyone ever heard of a CCW permit holder being held liable (sued) by the BG?The only wrongful death, civil lawsuit, that comes to mind is OJ SIMPSON.

TheOtherOne
July 14, 2003, 02:06 PM
Either way, Flores broke the law by carrying where he was carrying, and is usually the case, the shooting happened where only criminals were armed.I completely agree and of course the worst thing is he broke the law by shooting those unarmed innocent people.... which is why I'm glad that my state doesn't try and disarm me in school zones.

As with just about anything, there are exceptions and with CCW it is VERY few exceptions. Having a CCW usually forces people to be more responsible. I've actually had friends tell me they wouldn't want to get one. Their rational is it's only a misdemeanor if they ever did get caught with a gun and they would be less likely to be prosecuted if they had to use their gun in self-defense because it couldn't be argued that they've had a class on when force is justified.

sanchezero
July 14, 2003, 03:25 PM
I think the point that could be made with Flores is that even with whatever background checks he passed he still turned out to be a looney rat ba$****.

It seems antis will latch onto anything possible to derail firearms ownership and the few incidents like this where a legal guy goes bonkers can only help them.

Monkeyleg
July 14, 2003, 07:00 PM
There have been many instances of permit holders misusing their guns, but the percentages pale in comparison to the public as a whole.

In Columbiana County (GA?), two women got into some sort of road rage incident, and the one with a permit shot the other. The shooter was found guilty of manslaughter.

Last year, down in Texas, a permit holder shot an off-duty police officer who was working as a bar bouncer. The officer suffered a wound to his hand. That's the only instance I've been able to find of a permit holder having shot a police officer, but it still infuriates me.

Standing Wolf
July 14, 2003, 09:44 PM
I have never heard of any problems related to people in states with legal conceal carry laws.

Well, leftist extremists in several states with new shall issue laws are having very loud hissing fits. Does that count as a problem?

P95Carry
July 14, 2003, 10:12 PM
Without having info directly to hand ..... all I have gathered over many months is that ''incidents'' with legal CCW's are so few and far between as to be infinitesimal in their significance.

The anti's of course only ever land heavily on selected ''high profile'' events ..... rarely if ever it seems translating those into meaningful figures. If they did then we might well find that, taking as an example PA here, (where CCW figures seem to be in excess of half a million) .... if there were say, three incidents with genuine CCW's, how does that translate into percentage terms?.... it is in fact .. 0.0005 %!! Surely not even approaching a figure where anti's could say .... ''OK, we'll penalize the other 99.9995%''!! And yet this is almost what they DO try and do ....... jump on remote incidents and try and apply those across the board to the rest!

Ooops ... rant mode approaches! :cuss:

.45Ruger
July 15, 2003, 11:51 AM
The instructor at my CCW class put it to us this way; if all citizens were as law abiding as permit holders we would have lower crime rates than all of Europe. The simple fact is that anyone who passes the background check and jumps through all of the hoops to get a permit has already shown themselves to be near the top of law abiding people.

foghornl
July 15, 2003, 03:34 PM
Since we STILL don't have CCW in Ohio, I can't directly answer the CCW incident issue. But there was a case about 3 years ago in Akron, OH. Seems the Bad Guy [actually, Bad Girl] broke into someone's home, and attempted to shoot homeowner. BG's weapon jammed, Homeowner returned fire, wounding said BG. BG FROM PRISON files a $600,000 suit against homeowner.

Don't know what finally happened in the case. Since I do not wish to pay to subscribe to the Akron Beacon-Journal online, I can't locate the outcome.

BTR
July 15, 2003, 03:39 PM
In Alabama, a CCW possessing woman with no criminal record shot and killed another woman with no criminal record in a road rage-type incident. After tailgating each other and so one, the victim approached the perp's stopped car. The perp rolled down her window and shot the victim. I believe she was convicted of manslaughter.

Monkeyleg
July 15, 2003, 06:33 PM
BTR, that sounds like the case I was referring to, but I must have gotten the state wrong. The permit holder's name was Shirley Chapman Henson. Don't know why that sticks in my mind, but...

Putting all these incidents into perspective: from 10/1/87 to 10/31/02, Florida issued 828,608 permits. Only 1542 were revoked for any kind of offense. That's .19% over a period of fifteen years!

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