How does one ND a Glock while holstering it?


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WeThePeople
October 23, 2007, 03:38 PM
I need to know exactly how one can ND a Glock 23 while holstering it. This involves a Fobus Holster and a person sitting in a pick-up truck. The round entered the person's thigh.

The ONLY way that I can think of is that the person had his finger inside of the trigger guard and as he pushed the firearm into the holster his finger held the trigger still while the firearm continued to go forward.

I would greatly appreciate any and all theories even possible defects in the firearm (none of which were found by a Glock armorer).


Thanks,

Jim

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Jim Watson
October 23, 2007, 03:42 PM
That is the likely scenario.

Also, Fobus made some holsters with a thumb break strap. Early versions had straps narrow enough to go through the trigger guard and were blamed or at least suspected in reholstering ADs. They had a recall on those.

Owen
October 23, 2007, 03:42 PM
I don't know the fobus holster intimately,but some holsters can have protrusions that can press the trigger on insertion, if presented at the wrong angle. I don't think the Fobus is one of the holsters known for this issue.

In all liklihood, he had his finger on the trigger.

azredhawk44
October 23, 2007, 03:43 PM
Not sure of the construction of the holster you said...

But my cheap-o nylon holster has a retention snap over the top of the grip. When you draw the weapon, you unsnap the retention band and it is now in 2 pieces. When you re-holster, it's possible for the longer of the two halves to fall into the holster's cavity and enter into the trigger guard. I am very careful when using that particular holster to clear the retention straps.

But maybe some other protrusion on the holster entered the trigger guard?

ClickClickD'oh
October 23, 2007, 04:19 PM
If the person was in a vehicle it is also possible that the weapon snagged on something in the vehicle. A right handed person sitting in the drivers seat can run into problems with the seat belt latch as it will be near where a holster would ride their hip. Debris or clothing may also have been an issue. Was he wearing a jacket or type of cover garment?

Halo is for Kids
October 23, 2007, 04:35 PM
Fact:
-The trigger was pulled/pushed. Glocks are unforgiving when the trigger is pulled/pushed.

Theory:
-The Fobus holsters that I have had seem flexible. When seated in a truck it's possible that the holster was warped to the point that the trigger was pulled/pressed by the holster material.

Theory:
-The involved party's clothing might have come between the holster and trigger upon insertion.

Theory:
-Debris in the truck cab came between the holster and trigger upon insertion.

Theory:
-Finger on the trigger upon insertion.

Theory:
-An unknown item came between the holster and trigger.

mpmarty
October 23, 2007, 04:59 PM
fact: Holstering a weapon with a round in the chamber requires more than passing attention to detail.
fact: Glock pistols are some of the worst for potential danger as there is no safety lever to engage and the trigger travel is fairly short compared to a true double action such as in a hammer fired pistol.
Conjecture: User error such as finger on trigger, foreign matter on seat, retention strap imposing itself in trigger guard, bump slide in holstering and somehow trip firing pin (striker assy) off sear on trigger bar.:scrutiny:

WeThePeople
October 23, 2007, 05:14 PM
These are great! Keep them coming!!!

YosemiteSam357
October 23, 2007, 06:48 PM
Clothing, most likely.

I had a loose shirt get caught up in my hand and the trigger guard one time when I was reholstering. I could see how it could devolve into a bad situation if I hadn't stopped what (else) I was doing and focused on untangling my shirt and getting the gun in the holster cleanly.

In fact, I worried about this for some time, thinking that in an extreme situation I may lose my focus and concentration during the excitement, and have a problem while reholstering. Then I realized I can only worry about so many things, and need to train myself to do it right, and trust that I will should the situation present itself.

-- Sam

Coronach
October 23, 2007, 07:05 PM
Finger on the trigger or clothing getting caught up on the trigger guard are the most likely culprits I would wager, without having any more info. A wayward finger will do it every time, but that does not mean that poor trigger discipline is the reason. The fobus holster can flex, but I think it would have to actually be broken for it to trip the trigger.

The untucked shirt can and will do it, especially if the user's response to unexpected resistance is to just push harder.
In fact, I worried about this for some time, thinking that in an extreme situation I may lose my focus and concentration during the excitement, and have a problem while reholstering. Then I realized I can only worry about so many things, and need to train myself to do it right, and trust that I will should the situation present itself.This is a point strongly in favor of a hard-sided holder that does not collapse when the gun is not in it. Those el cheapo soft-sided Uncle Mike's holsters are impossible to holster efficiently.

Mike

SlimeDog
October 23, 2007, 07:29 PM
Here's an article on the Fobus recall:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_7_49/ai_n6144515

This may actually be the rarest of all beasts - an accidental discharge.

-SlimeDog

brickeyee
October 23, 2007, 07:51 PM
But a Glock has a safety.
The little shoe on the trigger! :neener:

"According to officials, "a plastic or leather strap on the gun holster can catch the trigger of the gun when (it's) inserted into the holster causing the gun to unintentionally discharge, posing an injury hazard to the user." A new design of the holster includes a strap that is more than 1-inch wide with a plastic tip too wide to be caught inside the trigger guard."
http://www.thehighroad.org/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=311356

Gee. I guess maybe using something that operates just like a trigger and is even in the same place is not always the brightest idea...

sixgunner455
October 23, 2007, 08:03 PM
Well, there you have it. The infamous Glock leg, and you figured out how it probably happened before you even posted the question -- finger on the trigger as the weapon is holstered.

DoubleTapDrew
October 23, 2007, 08:11 PM
I heard of an incident a couple years ago (probably in a gun mag) where some PD guy went to qualify with his glock and a fobus. He was wearing one of those windbreakers with the string in the bottom that had the plastic doo-dad on the end for cinching it tight. The last time he reholstered, that thing got in the trigger guard and followed the gun into the holster. When he got home he removed the windbreaker, causing the string and plastic thing to pull the trigger, discharging it in his holster.
I think finger in the trigger guard whilst holstering is the most common problem though. It's even worse if you are rasta DEA and clear the chamber while a magazine is still in the gun.

shotout
October 23, 2007, 09:02 PM
I witnessed a similar incident several years ago. It was at a private range. The individual had just completed some slow fire at a paper target. I was about 5 feet slightly behind and to his right observing him. I was looking directly at him intending to make comment to him as he re-holstered. Fortunately the shot missed his leg. He froze for a split second and my eyes went immediately to his pistol. His finger was clearly in the trigger guard. He jerked his hand up, the pistol was pulled back out of the holster, (by his finger) and it fell to the ground. Had the holster not contained the empty case causing a stovepipe I am sure it would have fired again.

Even after hearing what I saw, he contends that it just went off by itself. I am not sure if it is just to save face or if he does not really know. To give him the benefit out he doubt I think that it surprised him so that he does not remember what he did.

Of the several others who were present, one person says he thinks that he saw his finger in the trigger guard as the shooters hand went up. He did not want to be part of any conflict.

This individual is the type person that makes it easy for others to not like him. He was asked not to return by the owner for other reasons some time after this incident.

It is my opinion that the person who had the ND is probably not the best witness.

The Lone Haranguer
October 23, 2007, 10:39 PM
Something had to snag on that trigger as he pushed it into the holster, period. You absolutely must keep your finger completely out of the trigger guard. I like to index my fingertip on the frame recess that contains the slide lock.

pax
October 23, 2007, 10:48 PM
In fact, I worried about this for some time, thinking that in an extreme situation I may lose my focus and concentration during the excitement, and have a problem while reholstering.

The important thing to remember is that there is almost never a reason to reholster in a hurry. Take your time to get it right -- and, as you said, building good habits in the first place will go a long, long ways toward making sure you do get it right under stress.

pax

denfoote
October 23, 2007, 10:59 PM
If you keep yer booger hook and/or your joint sparker off the bang button, it ain't never gonna happen!!

Snarlingiron
October 23, 2007, 11:11 PM
The ONLY way that I can think of is that the person had his finger inside of the trigger guard and as he pushed the firearm into the holster his finger held the trigger still while the firearm continued to go forward.


Yep, that would be it.

woodstock72000@yahoo.com
October 23, 2007, 11:13 PM
fact: Glock pistols are some of the worst for potential danger as there is no safety lever to engage and the trigger travel is fairly short compared to a true double action such as in a hammer fired pistol.
Fiction, there is a safety, it`s the trigger horn. Where did you get your information? Stating that Glocks are some of the worst. Where is this info.?

I would guess to say that most self inflicted gunshot wounds are derived from negligence,lack of attention, or just simple ignorance. I can honestly say that I would handle any gun,safety or not, as if there actually was no safety at all times. Drawing and reholstering a handgun are the times when one should pay extra attention in what one is doing. I have a Fobius paddle holster and I know that without some miraculous happening or as one guy has said, your bugger picker actually pressing the trigger, and I can`t see how that would be possible if the gun is holstered, you won`t shoot yourself. OK

RNB65
October 23, 2007, 11:23 PM
Something got inside the trigger guard and pressed the trigger with enough force to release the striker. As others have said, it could have been a finger, a holster strap, a piece of clothing, a seatbelt, or something else. Who knows...

The question that no one has asked is why was said person sitting in a pickup truck fondling a loaded handgun? Was there a legitimate reason he had it out of it's holster? Keep your finger off the trigger and the gun in it's holster unless there is a legitimate defensive reason to draw it and there will be no ND.

wideym
October 23, 2007, 11:33 PM
Maybe he was the only one qualified enough to handle a glock? Just like our friendly neighborhood Rastacop:)

stephpd
October 24, 2007, 01:50 PM
Whe I took the handgun safety classes to get my ccw the instructor showed a LEO holstering the gun and had a ND. The quality of the video was good enough that you cound see that the index finger was still on the trigger.

During stress filled situations many people are observed with there finger on the trigger. Taking your finger off the trigger is a learned responce. It's much more natural for people to keep their finger on trigger and you have to train yourself to take it off. But during a stressful situation you can forget your taining and go back to what is natural.

I haven't seen any statistic on ND's and what percentages for each type but I'm 100% sure something was touching thoching the trigger. Trigger blocks seldom fail.:banghead:

WeThePeople
October 24, 2007, 09:18 PM
The question that no one has asked is why was said person sitting in a pickup truck fondling a loaded handgun?

The person had just bought the gun. With family members in the truck, the person decided that it would be a good idea to load and holster it. Kind of a Darwin Award moment if you ask me.

Anyway, I really appreciate the input. I hadn't thought of a snag from a retention strap, clothing, seat belt, etc. Thank you.

Steve C
October 24, 2007, 09:28 PM
People have been having ND/AD's with double action guns since their invention when holstering them with their finger on the trigger or inside the trigger guard. Most will not admit their own stupidity and try to blame it on all sorts of things.

AVESguy
October 26, 2007, 08:59 AM
Any experienced trainer will tell you that reholstering is among the most dangerous actions taken in the course of gun handling, and a casual attitude during this procedure can be catastrophic. I am not a trainer, but I've taken many intensive handgun classes, each lasting several days, with constant draw/shoot/reholster operations repeated hundreds of times over the course of each class. A class like this is a great place to repeat these actions many many times and build good habits. Good instructors stress a consistent, deliberate motion set for the reholster procedure. reversing your drawstroke in phases, with a pause just before final insertion into the holster to insure a clear path, flip safety on where applicable, AND that your finger is out of trigger guard. Go WAY slower than during the draw (it's not a race), and be mindful of obstructions. For IWB holsters (I use a CTAC or an Andrews for a Glock) I find that sometimes my tucked t shirt can loosen up from running and crawling all over the range and creep out over the edge of the sweat guard and get lodged with the gun if I don't sweep it clear every time I reholster (use thumb or weak hand). Going slowly, stopping and checking for obstructions and finger placement EVERY time without covering yourself is a good habit to get into.

Careless reholstering is the likely cause of the ND. (What PAX said!!)

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