[Greybeard]

Edited to add: Below cut and pasted from prior bum link. (Australia)


Friday 11 July 2003, 6:30 PM


A giant kangaroo was killed with an axe after it attacked two couples in a central Queensland town.

NSW holidaymaker John Crouch was forced to use an axe to kill a two-metre high kangaroo which pounced on him outside the annexe of his caravan parked in the yard of his in-laws' house in the town of Monto, 400km north-east of Brisbane.

Mr Crouch killed the kangaroo after it had attacked him before turning on his wife Helen.

The animal inflicted scratches to her face, back, and groin and kicked her in the stomach before her husband managed to pull the enraged animal off her.

Mr Crouch suffered a badly sprained hand, scratches and bruising.


"It was killed or be killed," Mr Crouch told the Bundaberg News-Mail.

"I'm absolutely sure it would have killed us if it could.

"It was completely crazy and became enraged without provocation."

Police and local parks and wildlife officers said the animal may have been the same one which attacked a local motel owner and his wife in Monto last month.

Doug and Pauline Lawson were left with minor injuries after the kangaroo knocked them to the ground in an unprovoked attack.

Wildlife officers believe it was an animal which had become dangerous after being released or escaping from the captivity of a previous owner.

Kangaroo owner Colin Candy, who makes no secret of keeping a kangaroo without a permit in his own backyard at Hervey Bay, said the roo may have just been hungry.

"The animal might have just been looking for something to eat because they trust humans," Mr Candy said

[scotjute]

If guns were banned, then your back to knives, daggers, swords, spears, bow/arrows, etc. for self-defense. Would also expect some resurgence of shields and armor.

[4v50 Gary]

It may have just been hungry? :confused: Now that's one heckuva way to ask for food. To kick and beat people. Like the comic book Sergeant Rock use to say, "Eat Lead! Budda budda budda budda...

[TallPine]

The tool of choice is still a gun.

Banning guns does not eliminate them (except from the law abiding). Look at UK, or NY or DC.

Kangaroo owner Colin Candy, who makes no secret of keeping a kangaroo without a permit in his own backyard at Hervey Bay, said the roo may have just been hungry.

BTW, when kangaroos are outlawed, only outlaws will have kangaroos.

[scotjute]

Of course, the first retreat back would be to black-powder weaponry!

[El Tejon]

Grey, this makes me hopping mad!:D

Trust humans? Thought those things were smarter than that? Put another roo on the barbie.:)

[HBK]

Looks like I have a lot to learn about kangaroos. Tooo bad the government of Australia has made it illegal for their people to defend themselves from violent....kangaroos?

[brownie0486]

Well, the question asked about tools of choice if no guns [ banned ].

I suppose it wouldn't be a big leap to say we would revert back to mans oldest tool, the knife, or some form of edged weaponry. Seems to have worked then and seems to be still very effective now if you read the papers much about crimes being committed in the cities.

Home, home on the range. Going back to ones roots isn't such a bad thing really. But I bet there would be a bunch of students then lining up for some edged weapons training as in the deep south in the 1830-1860 era when the Bowie was king of the hill in personal defense.

Brownie

[Mark Tyson]

That kangaroo wasn't half as looney as the Aussie government.

[PenHolder]

As others have pointed out, the next rung down on the ladder is edged and then blunt weapons that we've had for ages.

While the tool of choice for criminals where guns have been recently banned likely remains the gun, I think it's interesting to look at places that have never really allowed commoners to own guns, and where outside guns aren't readily available to low-end criminals. Places like, say, Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Japan. From what I understand, the weapons of choice for homicide in Hong Kong are long knives and cleavers of the type used for cooking, and that they serve the purpose extremely well.

Perhaps someone who has visited or lived in one of these places can give us the lowdown. twoblink? Skunk?

-PH

[CWL]

I'll step in about the arming of Asia.

Guns are available in HK, Taiwan and Japan if you know the right people.
Guns are used quite often in hi-$$ robberies & crimes where it is worthwhile. Not much guns used in small crimes/muggings. Oftentimes guns are loaned within a gang/triad to whoever needs it and a % of the proceeds are paid back as rental payment. Guns come outta China or the Phillipines.

Blades are prevalent in crimes & fights because of the availability of them, lots of kitchen cutlery is used because it is ubiquitous and can be grabbed from any kitchen/store/restaurant and then dropped at crimescene. They are not regularly carried by criminals.

Another reason why edged weapons are used in fights in certain parts of Asia is cultural. They grew up in a land where fights were settled with fists & blades because guns are not a common option. In the USA, we come from Cowboy tradition (whether true or not), so fighting with handguns is in our historical mindset.

In Asian countries who have suffered from wars, there is much more propensity to use firearms to settle disputes.

[Boats]

A roo killer you say?

http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/images/006.jpg

The reverse spike would have felled him nicely I think.:evil:

[Boats]

Or maybe a good bash?
http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/images/004.jpg

Seriously though, my "camp weapon" in gun ban territory (e.g. national parks) is the nastiest claw hammer I could find at Lowe's. "Honestly Mr. Forest Ranger, you expect me to pound my tent stakes with my knife or disturb the natural surroundings for a rock?":D

[The Warrigal]

What would be the tool of choice if, or when, firearms are ever banned?

Interesting question.

Short of "uninventing" the gun and somehow "forgetting" the formula for gunpowder, there is no way that firearms will disappear.

Not only will they remain the "Weapon Of Choice" for Police and Military Forces, but will always remain available to the criminal element in our society.

Indeed, the illegal manufacture and distribution of firearms and ammunition may well become a new, and highly lucrative, species of "boot-legging" for organised crime syndicates.

We may, however, live to see a time when the gun is either banned from Civilian ownership or taxed beyond the reach of all but a priviliged few.

As such, honest Citizens will have to seek legal alternatives.

For close-quarter self-defence the most logical replacement for the handgun is the knife.

It is concealable, readily available, and has a proven track record of effectiveness.

I would also expect that in such a social climate that schools dedicated to teaching the art of the blade would be in great demand amongst the Citizenry, as they were in early 19th Century America.

However, NEVER, underestimate the obssesiveness of the anti-gun zealot.

His logic is not merely hostile towards gun ownership rights.

It is hostile to the very concept of armed self-defence by Civilians.

Therefore, I would expect that any schools teaching knife combat to meet with considerable legal repression, sooner rather than later.

(As I beleive those schools which taught the use of the Bowie knife did back in the "good old days.")

This seems to indicate that Impact Weapons such as walking sticks and canes would likely become the weapon of choice for many honest Citizens.

We may come to see the cane, or the good old English Gent's "brolly," become a most popular fashion accessory for the well dressed man about town once again.

The ladies parasol may become popular amongst the fairer sex as well.

In the countryside, the hikers staff, and even the cudgel, may undergo a revival as a weapon of defence against predators both four-legged and bi-pedal.

Where projectile weapons are concerned, bows and cross-bows are the most likely candidates to replace firearms. Both for hunting and for self-defence.

However, if the more hoplophobic of our Legislators ever get their way, even these will likely be subject to some form of "stringent control."

The sling, however, may undergo a revival of popularity amongst both city and country dwellers.

Although difficult to master, it costs next door to nothing to make.

Ammunition is free.

It is readily concealble, and doesn't show up on metal detectors.

While more appropriate for hunting than for self-defence, it may come to enjoy a following amongst the lower order of the criminal class.

It also likely to become the weapon of choice for rioters. (As witnessed by it's use by Palastinian rioters on the West Bank).

[Kjay]

Well if we ever must part with firearms, I'm ready with an alternative or two.

[The Warrigal]

Kjay.


:cool: :D

[Byron Quick]

Well, they're going to have quite a problem banning the cane...especially if your doctor prescribes one for you. Mine will probably be made of steel with a mace head. Put a rubber stopper on the end and it's a walking cane.

But here in the US, they're going to have to come get what I already have.
I will not submit to confiscation. They will have to take my firearms by force.

[Sir Galahad]

Every hardware store is an arsenal to people who know how to look beyond intended use.:evil:

[coldshot03/04]

A Gun because Im not giving mine up!:evil: :neener: :evil:
Oh I thought the question was when guns are banned. Sorry.

[Navy joe]

1. I'll make my own gun, it's not that hard.

2. Got swords?

3. Gasoline is still legal right? :evil:

[Sir Galahad]

If worse came to worse and they were rounding up all guns, who needs the headache of fighting the G and probably dying in the process? Guns? What guns? Anyone see any guns? Sold them all private sale a year or so back. Actually traded a couple for this here crossbow, sir. Receipts? Didn't know I had to have those. You're free to search the house, officer You find any guns, let me know. Meanwhile, said guns are resting cozily in an undisclosed location. As soon as the G loses interest, the prodigal guns return home and live inside a false wall. People have been playing this cat-and-mouse game with the G in dfferent countries for years. It's just like a big game of "keep away". The G runs over to Mr.X and Mr.X has already thrown the ball to Mr.Y. The G runs to Mr.Y and the ball is thrown to Mr.X before the G even gets halfway there. The G gets to be monkey-in-the-middle for decades with egg firmly planted on face. People in this country have been doing this thing with illicit poker games for years now.

[Soap]

Even though I used to practice Iaido, a sword wouldn't be my first choice. I would probably opt for the largest knives possible (like a Helle's Belle) or a tomahawk (like a Roger's Rangers). Why? Because I have been using these tools since I was a child. They feel right in my hands and certain variants make great all-purpose tools. If those aren't available, just give me a solid stick of moderate length.

[oldpaladin]

I have three "go kits." One of them includes the following: HoytUSA 2003 Magnatec and two dozen arrows, Cold Steel Imperial Grade Double Edged Katana, Cold Steel Laredo Bowie, two Cold Steel Vietnam Tomahawks, a Cold Steel Spetznaz style entrenching tool (shovel), a Cold Steel War Hammer, a Cold Steel Battle Axe, a Cold Steel Mace, a Cold Steel 4' rattan staff, five S&W heavy throwing knives, a Wrist-Rocket style slingshot and steel ball bearings, a dual springloaded Benchmade tactical folder, two SOG Desert Daggers, and a SOG Pentagon. It's not enough to be an "expert" with handguns, rifles, or tactical shotguns. One must branch-out to other disciplines, and be versatile. As I see any attack upon the Second Amendment as a threat to all weapons, I'll not be limited to only one kind of defense or offense. Variety may be the "spice of life," but it can also be a key to survival... That which we hold most dear, we must be ready to defend... I urge all and sundry to read, "Unintended Consequences," from Accurate Press. What is written about firearms, applies also to my other "loves," blades and archery... If you value all of YOUR freedoms, I urge you to get involved, if you are not already...

Regards and Respects,
Carter F. Leffen, oldpaladin, out...

[Sir Galahad]

Archer to archer...you only have 24 arrows?:confused: I keep 24 shooters, another 24 shafts prepped ready to fletch plus buckets of fletching, points, and nocks, and that's just the aluminum. Wood, I have 24 POC tapered and dipped, 24 ready-to-go, and 100 bare shafts of ash. I also have a bucket of about 75 "zingers" and "canyon-jumpers" I use for stump-shooting and flight shooting (across canyons is my favorite.) My next to-get is a crossbow so broken aluminum arrows can be sawn down into bolts.
You also neglected pole arms. Check out the Cold Steel Boar Spear. Or the Samburu for a light take-down spear. The Boar Spear is razor-sharp.

[oldpaladin]

Sir Galahad,

My entry into the field of archery is recent. I'm now into the acquisition stage. First, I had to satisfy myself, as to my ability to use the bow in a manner sufficient for defense. Utility, accuracy, ease of maintenance, and ease of usage had to be judged. At present, I cannot equal your archery resources, and most definitely do not have your experience. I've no need to acquire more firearms. I'm now "into" what others would call "obsolete" or "ancient" weapons. I believe that they have their place in the realm of self defense weaponry. After all, what is old, and has endured, is never out of style...

Regards and Respects,
Carter F. Leffen, oldpaladin, out...

[scotjute]

Once firearms are banned, what's to prevent them from next banning bows
and arrows, swords, etc. And then if people resist, they'll only be armed with bows, swords, etc.
Better to stand and resist such a ban while you still own guns.
Register and actively vote for candidates who believe in up-holding the constitution.
As oldpaladin was saying, get involved now.

[Sir Galahad]

Oldpaladin: If you're ever looking for more shafts and stuff, I can let you know about a few places that have good prices.

[oldpaladin]

Sir Galahad,

I'd sure appreciate the help, Sir. Had always viewed ammo in case lots, and as the pursuit of archery is relatively new to me, so are the logistical difficulties. ALL help greatfully accepted! So far, am using Carbon Express by Game Tracker's Terminator 4560 shafts. Accuracy from shot to shot is quite nice. Good thing they're very reusable. $4.95 per shaft is a wee bit stiff- or is it? Of course, four shafts are a better deal than a box of 20rds .45-70 ammo- tough to reuse mishappen projectiles... Same price, but one, the rifle ammo, is expensive to reuse... How many shafts would you suggest to be acceptable for hunting, practice, and defense? Big difference between a thousand rounds of firearms ammo, and a thousand arrows! Wonder what the Hundred Years War would cost today? Must have had LOTS of folks making arrows... I'm using Saunders 9/32, 100gr Combo Points and have Ultimate Steel 100's on tap for either hunting or self defense. With only 24 arrows, have 18 with the Combo Points, and 6 with the Ultimate Steel 100's. Will acquire an additional three dozen shafts in next ten days or so. What would you suggest for follow-on acquisitions? Do you have a favorite in shaft composition- wood, aluminum, carbon, or other? Sorry for all the questions. Well, got to run. Way past my normal time to rack-out. Been off the 'Net too long, too many bases to touch. Thanks again, Sir Galahad. Stay safe, well, happy, and be at peace...

Regards and Respects,
Carter F. Leffen, oldpaladin, out...

[Sir Galahad]

I shoot traditional bow, so I use both wood and aluminum. I don't like carbon. They're not so great to shoot meat with. If they transfer some of the fibers to the meat, you can get serious gastro-intestinal problems form them.

For shafts and arrow-making supplies:
1.) FS Discount Archery
2.) Cabela's (call and ask for their Archery catalog.)
3.) Keystone Country Store (www.KeystoneCountryStore.com)

Those three will cover just about everything you need. When you start "rolling your own" arrows, you'll find it's actually quite a cost savings. Plus, you can pick your own fletch colors, which is good for your Medicine, if you believe in that like I do. Funny. I won't reload in the case of cartridges. But I will make my own arrows. As far as shafts go, Easton aluminums are IT. They are the standard. They will last longer than you if you take care of them. I suggest getting a dozen shafts a throw when you've got some spare money lurking about. For a real SHTF bowhunting for food situation, I'd figure on at least 100 arrows for hunting. Over the space of a year, you'll be amazed at how fast you can put this many together. Shafts at about $37 per dozen for aluminum Easton GameGetters out of Cabela's. I spend the extra duckets and get XX75 Advantage shafts. Those are easier to replace nocks because they have the Uni-Nock system the Gamegetters don't. Another positive investment is a crossbow. Then you can turn broken arrows into crossbow bolts. The best crossbows are the Buckmaster MaxPoint, the Excalibur Exocet or Exomag, and the TenPoints. Hortons and Barnetts are cheesy POS. When Horton had the steel prod Safari Magnum, now THAT was a crossbow. But now they make crap. Anyway, carbons would be fine for defense use if you find good prices on them which Cabela's has. If a carbon arrow shatters in a body, it will be over with, roll credits, secure empty popcorn container. All in all, I'd say a good 200 arrows would be perfect, 100 would be just fine. One thing you have to think about with that compound is finding parts if it breaks. My bow, all I need to worry about is the string and I have plenty of those. It's a recurve. In a real SHTF situation, where the bow comes into its own is capturing meat without alerting with a gunshot the starving hordes you just bagged an elk.

[morganm01]

Passport

[Mark Tyson]

A decent sized rock hammer makes a pretty mean weapon.